Flight Int Adverts "ferroNATS"

[Bigpants]

Hi All

A plea on behalf of long suffering commercial pilots who have to operate into Spain on a regular basis.

Please take a good look at the latest ad in flight 2-8 October..."ferroNATS exciting career opportunities controlling air traffic in Spain"

Seems they are looking for experienced Air Traffic Controllers to help them run a number of Spanish Airports.

These include Ibiza more suited to young peeps perhaps, Alicante if you like Benidorm and Barcelona for more cultured types.

Even the worse controllers current in northern Europe would be an improvement on what we pilots put up with in parts of Spain.

Dont forget your bucket and spade..

Regards Bigpants

[Sonnendec]

Hi,

Barcelona is obviously NOT one of the privatized towers in spain. And you should take a look at the T&C before applying for that job.

Best regards from a spanish ATCo.

[samotnik]

Just curious - what are the t&c?

[Andy Mayes]

Previous adverts I've seen have required ICAO Level 4 Spanish for obvious reasons, damn shame for me because I have just spent the last 7 years becoming fluent in GERMAN! (not for ATC reasons). There's no way I could watch another Rosetta Stone DVD but I would like to work in Spain!

[Sonnendec]

Just curious - what are the t&c?

Basically: 1800h/year (1670 "aeronautical hours" + on call duty + training + anything else the company requires you for), shifts at company´s discretion, availability 365/24h, salary from €19.000 to €29.000 BEFORE taxes the first four years.

:mad:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

salary from €19.000 to €29.000 BEFORE taxes the first four years

you are joking, aren't you?
:}:confused::ugh::D

[samotnik]

salary from €19.000 to €29.000 BEFORE taxes the first four years

I cannot believe this. It's impossible they would find anybody with such a salary. This would require a significant salary downgrade for every european ATCO interested.

[ron83]

Maybe these are monthly numbers?:E

[Lssar]

In this link you have the complete T&C´s for the ATCO´s of the new privatized TWRs in Spain:

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2012/09/29/pdfs/BOE-A-2012-12212.pdf

In the last page you can find the salary table, seeing is believing ...

[Sonnendec]

Thanks, lssar.

Since it´s in spanish, if any of you need further explanations about those T&Cs, just ask.

Best regards.

[throw a dyce]

It's just the Global Leader in Air Traffic Solutions at their usual grubby tactics.
They have virtually no spare staff in the UK who have level 4 spanish,and can't attract many spanish speakers at the salaries they are offering.
Good luck Ferro Nats.:E

[On the beach]

Feral gnats. Mmm, has a catchy ring to it.

It's just the Global Leader in Air Traffic Solutions at their usual grubby tactics.

They do have a rather nice, fully index-linked pension though. :E

OTB

P.S. TAD, you're too old and you don't speak Spanglish. And haven't you already got a job? :ok:

[throw a dyce]

OTB
NATS don't have the final salary pension that you get for new comers in the UK.Probably even worse in Spain.I can't even speak Chinglish never mind Spanglish.Hey you could come out of retirement,get the Rosetta Stone CD-ROM and have a go.Bon chance mon ami;)

[Conspiracy Theories]

That is incredible. Don't know how many movements there may be but top of the scale for 10+ years is 27000 Euros + extras....

I can't believe that. I'm in NATS at the moment and I speak spanish. I got a few contacts in Spanish ATC and it beggars belief. I had considered it but with what i was told despite the pay but the T & Cs. Definitely not but with the unemployment situation in Spain, i'm sure they will have loads of people wishing to apply.

Good luck for those that go.

[Lssar]

These are some examples you can find in the document:


"Asimismo, la empresa, podrá variar la jornada y el horario establecido en el contrato de trabajo de mutuo acuerdo con el controlador/a de transito aéreo, adaptándolo a las necesidades del servicio a cubrir. En caso de no aceptación voluntaria por parte del trabajador o trabajadora, la empresa podrá variar la jornada y el horario establecido en su contrato de trabajo conforme se establece en la normativa legal vigente."

"Also, the company may change the roster and the schedule specified in the employment contract with the agreement with the ATCO, adapting it to meet the needs of the service. If there is no voluntary acceptance by the worker, the company may change the roster and the schedule set in the employment contract as determined in the current legislation."


"(...) 1.670 horas anuales, pudiendo incrementarse la misma hasta un total de 80 horas adicionales (...) en el cómputo del límite anual de actividad aeronáutica de 1.670 horas no se tendrán en cuenta otras actividades laborales de carácter no aeronáutico, tales como imaginarias realizadas fuera del centro de trabajo y períodos de formación no computables como actividad aeronáutica"

"(...) 1.670 hours per year, it can be increased to a total of 80 additional hours (...) in the computation of the annual activity limit of 1670 Aeronautical hours it will not take into account other non-Aeronautical labour activities, such as on-call activities made ​​outside the workplace and training periods not reckoned as Aeronautical"


"(...) dada la especial naturaleza de los servicios que se prestan, así como el carácter esencial de los mismos para el correcto funcionamiento del sistema aeroportuario, las horas extra ordinarias a las que se refiere el párrafo anterior, y que por razones de servicio deban ser realizadas tendrán carácter obligatorio.
La empresa podrá retribuir dichas horas extra ordinarias conforme al precio establecido al efecto en el artículo 48, o compensarlas por tiempos equivalentes de descanso retribuido según las necesidades, requerimientos y disponibilidades que presente el servicio."

"(...) given the special nature of the services provided, as well as the essential character of them for the proper functioning of the airport system, regular overtime referred to above, and that for reasons of service must be made, shall be mandatory.
The company may reward that ordinary overtime under price established for this purpose in Article 48, or compensate for equivalent paid rest days according to the needs, availability and requirements of the service"


"(...) el controlador/a de control de tráfico aéreo que decida dar por extinguida la relación laboral con la empresa mediante la presentación de su baja voluntaria, deberá preavisar a la misma con una antelación mínima de siete meses"

"the ATCO that decides to terminate the employment relationship with the company by filing his voluntary resignation, shall notify the company with a minimum of seven months in advance"


etc ...

[Lssar]

Oh! what you can read as "Disponibilidad" and get paid 3600€ a year (before taxes) is what you get for being available to your company at their discretion.

This includes your days off and your vacations ...



So this "Disponibilidad" could also be translated as "Slavery Plus".

[chevvron]

FerroNATS are probably trying to attract some of the many Spanish Nationals who got their Student ATCO licences in England only to find they were unemployable in the UK.
I've met one; mid 30s, very pleasant lady. The CAA insisted she take a full A/G Radio Operator exam (both written and practical) before she could even do A/G Radio at an airfield as she'd had no 'live' experience!! (I was her examiner, that's how I know).

[Daermon ATC]

Feral gnats. :D
I'm still bent over laughing... very good one!


In any case I couldn't stop myself to share a few thoughts.

As the OP mentions, spanish ATC is dreadful... but I think the blame is uncorrectly placed at just the most visible element. The best analogy would be blaming a customer service representative for the failures of their company.

Nevertheless I assume that those "worse controllers current in northern Europe" will probably not be interested in what amounts to slavery... I usually tell my friends that I'm a slave of the state but the pay is not bad (less than 3500 € monthly after taxes, mind you) but these poor sods don't even have that consolation.

Let me also mention that ATCOs in Spain face probably the harshest laws in whole Europe. As an example to this let me point out that those willing to work for "Feral Gnats" will recieve their training from the Aena atcos that where working in that airport prior to the takeover. What you may not know is that those same atcos have been FORCED to become OJTI against their will. They recieved a letter from Aena ordering them to request that "on their own will" or be charged with deliberately obstructing the take-over.
In case you are wondering, the penalty for that is automatic loss of your atco licence and a fine of 4.500.000 € ... and no, it's no typo. :mad:

Anyone disbelieving this just let me know, I'll link the appropriate laws... as I have done several times before.

[jangler909]

FerroNATS getting desperate? A mail is spreading in Finland looking for "experienced controllers for a 12 month period to become valid in the towers and then to act as instructors." Don't think they'll find anyone under these T&C:s!

[BurglarsDog]

Perhaps Feral Gnats should give up some of their pie to saerco; after all saerco's first newbie ATCO, recruited straight off the street , has recently endorsed in the Canaries and is now doing a good job "Home Alone".:D

Someone, somewhere has begun to profit from the "Pain in Spain" felt by many.

Good luck to all who strive to achieve their ratings regardless of recompense

BD

[Lssar]

Perhaps Feral Gnats should give up some of their pie to saerco; after all saerco's first newbie ATCO, recruited straight off the street , has recently endorsed in the Canaries and is now doing a good job "Home Alone".

I hope that the mentioned "SAERCO guy" doesn´t refer to one of the pair caugh cheating at the theory exam for the Fuerteventura TWR validation: SAERCO sent two of the guys already endorsed at La Palma TWR to Fuerteventura so that they could also get the TWR validation, along with other newbies there. During the exam, which was watched over by AENA ATCO´s, one of these saw the two guys using cheat sheets. He quietly called the Guardia Civil (Spanish military police) and other airport personel to serve as witnesses, and let the test end. Then is when they got them. It is yet ignored what will SAERCO do about this offense. One of the guys was chosen to be the TWR Director for SAERCO at Canarias, quite an example for the rest.

Adiós!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

one stupid question,
they desperately looking for people,but they withdrawn advert from flightglobal and from nats web site.
Are they looking for atcos or not?

just as matter of fact,advert vanished a day after minister ^(Sra Pastor) meet spanish atcos....
no further comment...:mad:

[BurglarsDog]

I hope that the mentioned "SAERCO guy" doesn´t refer to one of the pair caugh cheating at the theory exam for the Fuerteventura TWR validation:

No it doesnt.


BD

[Getthemdown]

Does anyone have further informations on what's happening down there.

There's still some advertisement on Nats website but not that much details.

Would be interested in getting there..

[Daermon ATC]

I can't say that I have full insight in what is happening but I'll try to share what I know.

From the 10 towers FerroNats got, several have been already transfered. This is a huge delay to the initial planning where it was supposed that all 10 would have been transferred prior to previous summer.

The professional level of the new atcos has been significantly lower that the previous trainees (you thought it couldn't get worse in Spain? We have a saying here: others will come after me that will make me look good) which in combination with several legal and/or organization mishaps are root causes for these delays.

The two most important airports in the pack in terms of traffic (LEVC and LEAL) have not been transfered yet although the schedule is to have that before summer. Considering the accuracy of these predictions so far I'd take that estimate with a grain of salt.

In any case it seems that FerroNats has not enough staff as they have been forced to keep some trainees failed in training at a specific tower and they have just moved them to a different one to start training there agian. Unlikely scenario if they had surplus of them...

The contract was awarded for 5 years with a possible extension of one more. Obviously this being a country with the same political integrity as Greece or Italy, all bets are off on what might happen.

One of the few solid facts are the economic and working conditions offered by FerroNats... they have been posted before both in this thread and on other ones about spanish ATC but if you need them, feel free to ask.

Bottom line: You can probably get a job at FerroNats but I would advise to check carefully what you are getting into. Feel free to ask, I work for Aena but I can provide link to official sources so you can make your own opinion.

[bavarian-buddy]

As far as I heared the training for this crap is self sponsored. Somewhat 45k Euros for the tower rating. And it seems that there are not enough jobs for all the students. Can anybody here comfim this? Skyguide recently recruited a young lady who did the training down there just to be told afterwards she won't get a job in spain. She has to do full training in switzerland again. Here we go. P2C, pay to control. What's next? :mad:

[Sonnendec]

Confirmed. Ab initio training is now ran by the private sector, and yes, it costs around 45k euros for the visual tower rating.

And yes, there are not enough jobs for everybody.

Just crazy.

[Chess Mate]

I couldn't believe (or should I better say, it is really hard to believe) that there are some f:mad:ing idiots out there that will pay to work.

The package offered is a bad joke.

[Daermon ATC]

For those interested, here is the link to the school where all spanish atcos were trained prior to 2010. It is still the most important but not the only one.

Servicios y Estudios para la Navegación Aérea y la Seguridad Aeronáutica S.A. (http://seleccionatm.senasa.es/?p=3&m=3)

Text is in spanish but numbers should speak for themselves. :E

[SINGAPURCANAC]

stand by,

if I catch correctly,person who wants to be an ATCO employed by AENA must pay for Ab initio ( 45000 for twr or 50+ for acc) ?

You are joking ,aren't you?

All training costs are already included in cost base. It is not company money, it is money paid by our customers.

If you don't believe me check with adequate EC regulation 549/550/551.

And everyone must obey to these rules if they belong to:
European Union,
is member of SES projects( FABs or so...)
and/or subject to bilateral/multilateral state agreements.

evrything else is just criminal. :mad:

[Daermon ATC]

Hmmm... haven't read those regulations (I know perhaps I should but currently I have enough spanish legislation to read) but let me see if I can clarify a bit.

Senasa (the only atco formation centre in spain) had untill 2010 an agreement with Aena (the only ANSP in spain) to train atco students with no cost to them and after completion they would be offered a position at the ANSP. Similar to NATS or other serious providers if I'm not mistaken.

After 2010 several training centers opened, for example the UCJC who trained a few atco students (I'm not sure how many... between 50 and 100 I believe) in UK who then found out that their licence was not valid in spain...

Aena has not hired a single atco since march 2010... all those willing to pay these fees at Senasa (or the other training centres) have mostly wasted their money. Just a very limited amount of chosen ones have made it to the other ANSP now working in spain, FerroNats (there is another one, Saerco (no, not Serco)) working in the Canary Islands). Their working conditions have already been mentioned in this thread.

So FerroNats just recruited whatever was available, be that atcos with foreign licence, military personell, recicled AFISOs (you don't want to know about these... trust me) or those poor sods who just paid 50k euros

[chevvron]

Oi Daermon, don't tar all AFISOs with the same brush! The UK and Norway both have some very capable AFISOs. I did 34 years as an ATCO and having retired just over 4 years ago, I am a part time (2 days per week) AFISO. I know of several other retired ATCOs who are also AFISOs.

[dav_vader]

What Daermon ATC means is they are spanish way AFISOS. Really we (spanish ATC) don´t have any problem wiht other ATCs or Afisos or whatever, where we are worried is about the way our authority is certifying licenses, procedures, training courses.... that is the problem.

Belive me, I´m now a OJTI ( forced by the law) and I´m experience how poor are the training courses and how light where the selection of newbies. OJT where I work was suposed to last 1.5 month for the Saerco ATCs and now is over 3 months for every group, no matter of experienced or new. But don´t worry, what you will hear from AENA, SAERCO, FERRONATS and our beloved AESA is that the transition is acording to the dates, that the security is at the maximun standard and that everything is even better than planned. ALL BULL****.

[Daermon ATC]

Reprimand acknowledged and accepted. :ouch:

Please accept my apologies, as dav vader mentions I was refering to the way the AFIS issue was handled in Spain.

Their selection process was nonexistent (they were a political decission so they were needed with urgency... selected were some within Aena or Senasa who had some "relationship to aviation"... and very good connections). After several failures in terms of implementation (GCHI was demoted to AFIS but after many local protests they got back to ATC control... who where the same guys with a blitz upgrade training :ugh: )

After that no further AFIS training has been done (to my knowledge).


Oh, and back again to the FerroNats topic, I've heard (unconfirmed, as usual) that those who have failed their local unit endorsement have NOT been moved to another tower to start again their training there but have been fired instead. Guess FerroNats was started to get some concerns about the reported abismal level of their employees and is trying to at least weed out the worse :E