Long-term prop aircraft lease

[Tonic Please]

Hello all,

I think this is the best forum for my questions.

1. In Europe, where would I be able to borrow/rent a small twin or large single-engine aircraft from, seating around 10-15? Single pilot.

2. I use Google but I don't really know what search terms to use without getting flying clubs coming up or large companies renting out jets for hundreds of thousands a month.

Would anyone have any ideas about prices? 2,000E/month? This would be long-term leasing and based in Hungary.

Does anyone know of a little leasing company or group of aircraft owners?

PM's welcome if necessary.

Thanks kindly,
TP.

[mad_jock]

Your going to have to redifine your questions.

Is it going to be private transport or public transport.

What level of lease is it going to be.

How many hours per month are you going to fly.

Who is the pilot thats going to fly it.

[Tonic Please]

Thank you for your request for precisions.

1. Is it going to be private transport or public transport - Public, not private.

2. What level of lease is it going to be - I don't understand the question I'm afraid.

3. How many hours per month are you going to fly - Roughly in my head, around 100hrs.

4. Who is the pilot thats going to fly it - I will either employ 2 pilots to work alternately, but perhaps I will be renewing my CPL stuff soon and I might be involved in it.

Trust this helps you help me :)

Best,
TP

[PURPLE PITOT]

Public transport, 10-15 seats. You are looking at a 2 crew type there. Who's AOC will you be using? (pulls pin, stands well back.)

[Tonic Please]

I see. Well, let's go down to the largest single crew type possible then! Don't need to waste dosh on crews when, I'm supposing, I shan't be setting the world on fire with passenger numbers in the early months! We're talking a handful of tourists from A to B o a 45 min jobby. Pulling pins and push back for that? Happy to be informed if I'm missing something. This is new territory, hence post :)

AOC, this is...? (I could guess, but I don't know!)

Whilst I'm happy to learn such aforementioned tidbits, might anybody know of where I could find a plane for long-term, roughly 100hrs/month lease for a reasonable bit of dosh? That way, I could explain to them the situation and get hard figures.

I'm not looking at starting up an airline; it's merely a little business idea that I believe will work and, as I hope you well understand, I'd rather not blurt it all out online, but happy to share a bit via PM should anyone should or prove to be valuable with interest :)

Cheers,
TP

[PURPLE PITOT]

In order to operate a public transport flight, you must have the approval of the national aviation authority. This comes in the form of a Air operators certificate. You cannot operate without this. I suggest you do a search on here for more information.

[mad_jock]

You need some old antanov heap of ****e then, with Russian pilot to fly it. Don't worry about the maintence those russian heaps don't need any and the pilot will look after the rest.

With your level of legality so far don't worry about work permits or any of that nonsense it will be fine.

If though your wanting to do it legally you looking at least a million start up costs if going solo. And half that if you can tag onto someones elses air operator certificate. The actual cost of the aircraft will be about 1000 euro's an hour but you will need another 500 euro's an hour for all the legal stuff

[Tonic Please]

Hmm..

I will continue my research in more depth then before coming here and asking anything else!

I find it incomprehensible that I can't carry a few tourists a day on a 45 minute flight in some relatively big, single pilot cessna. I'm not looking to take on Easyjet!

Surely I can rent some aircraft from a company for XK euros/month on a 'simple basis' and my costs would only be landing fees, fuel and whatever else may come up.

Am I not explaining myself or am I dreaming? There are lots of little companies, family-owned even, who have 1 or 2 little planes who fly the odd tourists from point A to point B. I find it hard to imagine how they're dealing with 6 figure numbers!?

If so, I shall reconsider my entire plan entirely.

[mad_jock]

Your not only dreaming your on drugs.

You have a whole heap of hoemwork to go and do. I susggest contacting your local Aviation Authority and see what they think.

To be honest as pro pilots we get exposed to plans like this monthly. Everyone thinks they have the perfect buisness plan.

Never yet seen one actually succeed.

[Tonic Please]

Amusing.

So what about all these little pleasure flight companies? Those with sea-planes in Vancouver (Island) for example? A minimal amount of float planes they have. All coastal regions which have sight-seeing flights? Mini A-B ops running in the outbacks...

I'm looking at doing this in Hungary. It's not as crap out there as some may think given it's an 'Eastern European' country and all the unfortunate stereotyping that goes with it.

I'd go into the business plan idea but as you say, probably a waste of time. I'll however get in touch with the right people in Hungarian aviation (have a few already) and see what grows.

Appreciate comments so far, however.

Best,
TP

[mad_jock]

Completely different setup in the states/ canada.

There are two types of AOC

A whats called A to A where you come back to where you have started and its limited to something like 4 seats.

And a A to B which it starts getting very expensive very quickly which allows you to take off in one airport and land in another..

Hungary is part of EASA so will have the same rules as the rest of europe.

[Tonic Please]

I see. I will look into that too and see what I can find out.

Thanks again!

[Cymmon]

Would not ad-hoc charter be a good idea?
Or a sequence of planned charter flights?

[Tonic Please]

Hello,

Would you mind expanding upon those two terms since I don't really know what you mean!

CHeers,
TP

[avconnection]

How can you have a CPL and not know what a charter or AOC is? These are the fundamentals of obtaining a CPL. Every CPL knows this. There is little difference between a PPL and CPL except to operate under an AOC on charter (or similar).

Obviously you don't have a CPL and with no disrespect, have no idea about aviation, I suggest you approach a consultant and get some advice from them. You will be in over your head within 2 weeks if you lay one cent down on this venture without consulting the right people.

So far, none of what you've suggested is at all possible under any circumstance. Either open the purse as suggested, or start scaling back significantly.

Av.

[Tonic Please]

Well I did my CPL about 9 years ago! Just forgot what you meant.

All advice taken onboard. Thank you kindly.

[PURPLE PITOT]

This comes up surprisingly often on these forums. Usually a recent "graduate" of one of the glossy schools, who's parents cant afford to buy them a job.

Despite having recently studied air law, they still have no clue about how the industry works, or what their licence entitles them to do!

[Tonic Please]

This place amazes me.

I think it's about time I close my account and give this site up. It's not only my thread here, it's others. The assumptions some people make just astound me.

Simple question about a company someone might know of where I could lease an aircraft. A simple idea I have and fine, maybe it won't take off... not a problem, I have my own income and life but honestly, what drives some people to respond in certain ways and gather together is truly astonishing.

Appreciate comments and links otherwise, so thank you.

Best,
TP

[PURPLE PITOT]

Don't take it personally. This question pops up regularly in the 20 years i have been aviating for a living, and will have done so long before that. It gets a bit tedious telling people why they can't just hire a plane and go barnstorming/ pleasure flying/ air taxi as a business.

Europe is over regulated by beaurocrats, and you have to follow the same rules as an airline. This is why the lighter end of GA is in such a poor state.

It is also annoying that people who hold professional licences don't know the rules, or where to find them.

[mad_jock]

And just watch yourself and your bank account.

That size of operation is notorious for sharks operating who will have zero problem with taking you to the cleaners and dumping you if they even get a sniff at making 10 euros out of it.

[flynowpaylater]

Tonic - It's fairly easy actually.

The type of lease you need is a wet lease or ACMI. This way, the Aircraft would be supplied to you, with Crew, Maintenance, Insurance. Hence ACMI. The lessor would hold all the licences. You sell the flights / seats and simply pay the operator to fly the flights. You pay for the fuel, landing, handling etc...

Depending on where you want to operate said flights (i.e. what countries, what airports) will determine the type of aircraft / operator you need.

It's only difficult if you make it difficult.

If it is a successful venture, then you could look to save costs by buying the aircraft and getting an AOC for your company. Best to rent in first to test the business model.

FNPL

[Pace]

Tonic

The other problem you would have is the estimated hours at 1200 per annum which is high!
What would you do on down times, maintenance schedules etc? You would probably need two aircraft and a rotation of pilots to cover such an operation as well as the aircraft being a twin not a single!
You would be better talking to a local AOC which is already up and running and seeing if you can do something joint with them.

I would also question how you have come up with the 100 hrs per month?
If its a tourist thing then you may achieve good usage in the tourist season but little or nothing at other times of year!
Unless of course its a summer destination which turns into winter skiing!
You also need to look at the departure and destination airports? Are they equipt to get you in with all kinds of weather?
A semi field in the middle of no where will not do!

Pace

[flyingfemme]

TP, you say that it isn't like you were trying to set up an airline......but that's exactly what you are asking to do. Everyone else here knows that and it is difficult to believe that a CPL holder didn't know that.

Carrying fare-paying passengers is a charter operation and requires an Air Operator Certificate for the company; a mini- airline, if you will. That costs a lot of money and time to set up and requires several well qualified people on the payroll.

Leasing an aircraft is not like leasing a house. It costs you for every hour you fly and your lessor will require a guaranteed minimum hours per month. It is tough to find a turboprop that will seat 10-15 pax without entering the realms of Emissions Trading and extra regulation due to the weight of such an aircraft. Doing this in all weathers, reliably, in a single will probably not be possible and twins cost more, need bigger runways etc. can you afford a thousand euros an hour to run this bird? That wouldn't be out of the ballpark.

You need to do some serious research and redefine your requirements.

[Tonic Please]

Ah, some useful responses :D

flynowpaylater: Thank you for that info, I will look into what you said.

Pace: Good idea about asking a similar company somewhere. I'll hunt them down and ask/propose a few things. The two airports are indeed suited for worse weather but as has been mentioned, this would be an April-Sept kind of service.

flyingfemme: In my defense, I'm 28 nearly and I got my licenses in Canada when I was about 18 odd.. For the last 8 years, I've been involved in languages - translation, etc, due to the lack of work in aviation. Whilst I admit I should know something, I simply haven't reflected on it so much. I originally didn't plan to talk about the business idea on here anyway - I just wanted to know of a place where I could rent a plane in Eastern Europe and/or the kind of terminology I should use to search Google for various rules/regs... I'd not come here with a business plan without researching anything so the thread has got a little off topic.

A few facts: Pécs, in souther Hungary, is very disconnected from all of Hungary by air, especially Budapest. It's a 3+ hour train journey or more on a coach (done both many times). Pécs is a stunning city - look it up - with endless things to do and I find it a disgrace, to be quite honest, that nobody with more money or no airline companies have closed the gap.

I can't believe I can't get a few people a day into a plane, fly them for 45 mins over Lake Balaton on a beautiful flight into Pécs airport (Pogany) and they pay 50 odd Euros return.

Perhaps you'll not deny the business plan as the tourists are there (and the dozens of hotels I've contact in both cities have expressed interest in advertising, for a fee paid to me, to support the idea. Even 2 flights of 8 people a day! The only downside seems to be ridiculous costs for operation. If I can get a good deal on a plane and something worked out, I know the actual business idea will work.

I could garner support of various councils too, because I'm promoting tourism in Hungary and that spreads money. I think I need to contact a few important people.

Thanks again,
TP

[PURPLE PITOT]

I hate to quote Ricky Gervaise, but "Good luck with that."

[what next]

I can't believe I can't get a few people a day into a plane, fly them for 45 mins over Lake Balaton on a beautiful flight into Pécs airport (Pogany) and they pay 50 odd Euros return.

Good luck with that! With 15 people (typical load for a Metroliner or L410) this would generate an income of 750 Euros per trip or 500 Euros per flying hour. The biggest thing you will get for 500 Eur/hr will be something like a beaten-up Seneca. Which has only six seats. And you did not pay yet for your crew, office staff, office rent, publicity, landing and airport fees, security charges, airway fees, nav data subscription, administrative charges of your aviation authority, taxes, line maintenance, aircraft cleaning, catering, mandatory safetey courses for your flying staff and all the other things that I forgot to mention...

[Tonic Please]

I live and learn.

It seems I'll have to approach a set-up and propose the idea.

Of course, it wouldn't be once, it would perhaps be 2 or three times a day.

Shame it all costs so much, really. Seems a waste of airspace and pilots, but you probably worked that out already.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again!

[what next]

Of course, it wouldn't be once, it would perhaps be 2 or three times a day.

If you lose 2000 euros doing one trip per day, then you will lose 6000 Euros doing three such trips. Every day.
Don't want to spoil your dream ... Maybe you come up with something new that nobody else has figured out in 100 years of aviation yet?

[tommoutrie]

NEWS HEADLINE

Former british premier, gordon brown, has taken his financial acumen and applied it to aviation with a novel twist on hungarian sightseeing tours. He and his business partner, Nicholas Leeson, are hoping to press the Fairey Rotodyne into service to provide a low cost solution to the burgeoning tourist requirement to be flown around over the countryside by CPL holders who have finished their training but cant find jobs.

[Tonic Please]

It's not sightseeing it's connecting two cities as a premium service, targeting tourists.

Don't see the point in your sarcasm? Plus, who says CPL holders? I only said I would as a casual remark - I'd prefer not to, to be honest. I'd prefer Hungarians.

Point is, a lot is going on behind the scenes and I'm in touch with a few pepole here and there, both important, significant and high-up in aviation.

So mock all you wish. I'll do everything I can to find a way to make it work. If it doesn't, I'll abandon it and continue with my normal, relatively ok life anyway!

Best,
TP

[PURPLE PITOT]

I would refer you to Mad jocks post no 20 when dealing with these important, significant and high up individuals:ugh:

[what next]

I'll do everything I can to find a way to make it work.

And you should, because our industry always needs fresh ideas. But don't forget about reality...
I'm just thinking about a similar operation where they do some kind of scheduled passenger service between the island of Elba and the Italian mainland during the summer season in Let 410s. It is absolutely impossible that this operation can ever be profitable, but obviously they get some development subsidies from the EU or their local government. Maybe something similar is possible for your plan?

I'd prefer Hungarians.

Don't say that too loudly because it is a clear violation of European anti-discrimination laws. Especially if you want european development money to start your business going...

[Levpilot]

How can you have a CPL and not know what a charter or AOC is? These are the fundamentals of obtaining a CPL. Every CPL knows this. There is little difference between a PPL and CPL except to operate under an AOC on charter (or similar).

Obviously you don't have a CPL and with no disrespect, have no idea about aviation, I suggest you approach a consultant and get some advice from them. You will be in over your head within 2 weeks if you lay one cent down on this venture without consulting the right people.

So far, none of what you've suggested is at all possible under any circumstance. Either open the purse as suggested, or start scaling back significantly.

Av.

Hi,

Firstly I’d like to introduce myself, I’m Leo, I have a PPL and I’m achieving my Aircraft Maintenance Engineer License and I’ve worked with maintenance and management of aircraft before.

All I have to say about your comment is that you’re being quiet rude with the comrade pilot asking about a leasing or rent of an aircraft.

I hope you’re not forgetting that even with the tougher that aviation can be, the field is suffering a shortage of personnel in aviation such as pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, among others. It’s quiet obvious that aviation has lost a lot of enthusiasts people because clearly there are certain characters (as you) that put to flight these people that’s willing to understand more aviation.

Finally I want to add that, eventually, the shortage of these people will affect aviation and economy in parallel and prices will rise up, and travel will be impossible.

[Aso]

the field is suffering a shortage of personnel in aviation such as pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, among others.

Not for the next 12 months....

All I have to say about your comment is that you’re being quiet rude

All I have to say about your comment is that you’re being quiet late :8