"Lesson time" not one hour due to air traffic - normal?

[Davidil]

Here in Cyprus if you need to wait 20 minutes to get off, you only fly for 40 minutes. If you need to wait 40 minutes, your air time will be 20 minutes. Is that normal? Is this how it goes anywhere in the world?

Thanks

[Cusco]

That's pretty much par for the course in the UK: If you are occupying the aeroplane yet stuck at the hold for 40 minutes , that's just 'tough'.

Hence the frequent recommendation on here that schools in quiet airfields with less of a commercial aviation(which always takes precedence) bias offer a better chance of fewer frustrating and expensive delays.

However not all areas have the luxury of choice.

[piperarcher]

I would think it's the same elsewhere. You log (though not necessarily pay) brakes-off to braken-on, and the amount of actual flying will depend on the time taken to do power checks, taxi to the hold and being able to line up on the runway. I guess if you have a choice, this factor needs to be taken into account when choosing a Flight Training Organisation.

I once moaned (only to myself because no one else was going to care), that on my QXC some years ago, that a controlled airport made me wait at a holding point for some 20 minutes, so it had already cost me £70 before I had even begun the flight home. But then you have to accept that aviation is one of the worlds most expensive hobbies and you dont just pay for the bits in the air :-(

PiperArcher

[Ultranomad]

I know at least one school (http://www.dsa.cz) that charges flight hours from takeoff to touchdown, doesn't impose any other extra charges, and maintains very reasonable rates. It's in Czech Republic but they have students from all over Europe.

[piperarcher]

Surely if you are told that you may have to wait at the hold for 20-30 mins you would turn the engine off?

Nowadays I probably would, but back then, it probably took me 20 mins to go through the startup / power checks :* Plus as I recall it was a case of "Hold A2, due to landing xxxx", then "Continue holding A2, due to additional traffic". Not sure about ATC, but I didnt know if I would be there 5 mins or 25 mins.

[RTN11]

Most large UK schools simply charge take off to land time plus a fixed 12 mins (or 0.2 hours for ease) for taxi time, 6 mins either side of the flight. This avoids you having to pay the extra if you are stuck at the hold, and as far as I am aware the CAA are perfectly happy with you logging on this basis.

[riverrock83]

My club / group charges from take off to land + 5 min + instructor (if required - direct to instructor).

There have been discussions before I'm sure on what the best policy is from a management point of view, but this way there is no incentive to hurry your ground checks. The plane is using less fuel on the ground when at idle also (an essentially insignificant amount) and engine / airframe time is logged in the air also so seems fair to me.

[taxistaxing]

Most large UK schools simply charge take off to land time plus a fixed 12 mins (or 0.2 hours for ease) for taxi time, 6 mins either side of the flight. This avoids you having to pay the extra if you are stuck at the hold, and as far as I am aware the CAA are perfectly happy with you logging on this basis.


Yep that's certainly how the training schools I've flown with operate. It can work in your favour as you can technically log more than the 6 minutes either side that you are paying for, if you have a long hold or taxi back.

If you can, try to find somewhere that charges you by tacho hour rather than block hour. The tachometer is linked to engine RPM so moves at a slower rate when you're sitting at the hold idling than when you're in the cruise. That way the 'expensive time at the hold' becomes very cheap loggable time. :ok:

This is obviously more of a benefit when you're hours building than when you're training, and I haven't come across a training school that charge on a tacho basis.

[bluecode]

Isn't that more to do with slot availability than delays? If you book the aircraft from 3 until 4. That's what you get. If the next customer is expecting to take it at 4pm then you have to get it back at that time regardless of how long you've been in the air. Generally when I was taking lessons, I rarely flew for an hour at the early stages anyway.

[riverrock83]

I suppose the question really is - what are you paying for? The 1 hour block time or 40min airtime plus a small fixed amount for taxi (or hobbs time)?

If you are only paying for 40min + extras then why not book 1hr 20min next time? If you come back early - no harm done.

[xrayalpha]

It all depends what you are paying for.

We put students in the diary for two hours for a lesson with typically one hour "in the air".

We charge the meter minus the first tenth to allow for warm up. We own our own aircraft and can operate engines "on condition", so it is really really important to look after them.

I know of people at an international airport charged the wheels off/wheels on plus 10 minutes.

All seems sensible to me. (Of course, at a big busy airport, if you have to wait to get on the runway you may be paying to orbit somewhere waiting for a slot to get back in - and that will cost on the meter!)

If I was paying a flat x per hour - regardless of whether it was flying, taxying or orbiting - I might be a bit peeved.

But then a flying school has to make a profit to stay in business, and it is all the same cake no matter how you slice it.

So if you have a choice, go with the school/instructor that works for you.

[Davidil]

Thanks guys.

[dobbin1]

Charging on the basis of airborne hours (or airborne plus a fixed taxy time) makes perfect sense for a flying school because the vast majority of the variable cost of operating the aircraft is based on the airborne hours.

Charging for block to block time may result in a slightly higher income for the school, but this is likely to be offset by the additional costs arising from students taxying too fast or not warming the engine up before take off.

At the school where I work, students (and instructors) regularly log more time than is paid for by the student.

[riverrock83]

Of course - the school may be taking the extended ground time into account, so that the hourly rate is lower, allowing them to advertise a rate that to the unwary would look very attractive...