Best GA airport for Paris?

[Contacttower]

Toussus and Pontoise are now NOTAMed as not having customs, Le Bourget is very expensive and has no AVGAS, how is one meant to fly directly to an airfield near Paris from the UK in a light aircraft? :confused:

Suggestions?

[fullyestablished]

The last time I flew into Le Bourget I got AVGAS; are you sure that it is no longer available?

[Contacttower]

When was that? Just looking at the French AIP in only lists JET A1 as being available.

[what next]

Hi!

Depending on what aircraft you fly, Lognes could be an option. I flew there quite often in piston twins. The restaurant on site is an absolute must!

Here is a link that may be useful otherwise: Customs Withdrawn From Many French Airfields | FlySynergy (http://www.flysynergy.com/ga-news/french-customs/)

Happy landings
max

[fullyestablished]

I have not been there in the last three years, I called them this morning and you are right, no more AVGAS.

[mad_jock]

Which side of paris do you want to get to?

[Contacttower]

Well the centre really but coming from the north...

[Fuji Abound]

Lognes without a shadow of a doubt.

No distance from the train station and direct line into the center - quick and regular trains.

Hard runway and nice and friendly.

Only possible draw backs are - no customs, land at L2K or for a cheaper option Lille to clear, fuel is cash or fuel card (although they say they take credit cards), and for the uninitiated you need to be comfortable with the airspace around C de G.

I would second the restaurant and there is a good cheap hotel on the field and better ones close by.

[mad_jock]

I would do the train thing as well.

Only thing which might catch you is opening hours with the small ones.

But a night in a local hotel will be less than you would get charged for using one of the big fields.

[1.3VStall]

How about St Cyr L'Ecole? (You'd have to clear customs en route, Le Touquet perhaps?).

[Fuji Abound]

PS - I have not tried it, but thinking about it laterally, Lille for Paris might make perfect sense.

The landing fee and parking are really cheap. There is full Customs and the train station is close, with a bus every half an hour or loads of taxis. It must be high speed service to the center of Paris. The opening hours would not preclude night flights or an early start.

My earlier suggestion was Lognes but my guess is that in a time only consideration (given you would have to stop somewhere en route to Lognes, and it would probably take as long on the train and to fly Lille Lognes) that Lille would be as quick if not quicker.

Oh yes, and Lille have Avgas, and take credit cards.

[172driver]

Lille to Paris is about an hour by TGV, so that's not a bad idea. You could also try Beauvais, closer in but relatively slow connections to central Paris.

[KeyPilot]

I think for central Paris door-to-door nothing would compete in time with the Eurostar (it's top speed is significantly faster than almost all light aircraft)!

However I have a friend living in the rural south of Paris and intend to pay him a flying visit. So does anyone have any experience of any of the following airfields:

- Toussus le Noble
- Bretigny sur Orge
- Melun-Villaroche
- anywhere else in that neck of woods

Thanks,
KP

[Contacttower]

Lille to Paris is about an hour by TGV, so that's not a bad idea. You could also try Beauvais, closer in but relatively slow connections to central Paris.

That's interesting actually...I looked at Beauvais train times and they are typically an hour and a half to Gare du Nord if I've read the schedule properly. Lille is three times the distance to Paris...just goes to show how much faster the TGV is than a normal train.

[Fuji Abound]

I think for central Paris door-to-door nothing would compete in time with the Eurostar (it's top speed is significantly faster than almost all light aircraft)!

I plan for 155 knots and given the channel is in the way and its much further to get to Ashford or London in the first place I will beat the Eurostar every day of the week. ;) I will even comfortably beat it with a stop at L2K, Lognes, taxi and train but direct Lille and the Eurostar I suspect has the edge on going to Lognes.

Then again if we flew to save time, we probably wouldn't. I always reckon that by the time you get to the airport, sort yourself out, and get from the airport to where you are going at the other end its got to be at least a two and a half hour car journey to save any time or someone has to put some water in the way. On the other hand I did Bembridge the other day in 15 minutes, try that by car and ferry!

Toussus and Melun are both find and have been to both in the last few years anyway. No problems and as exactly as the AIP. I have never been to Bretigny.

Contacttower - if you give Lille a go, you will be directed to the huge GA apron. You pay in the deserted terminal in front of the apron. If you belong to a flying school the fee is discounted and its about 12E. You can leave the airport via the main terminal but if you dont want to wait for the bus to take you over there is a gate just past the GA terminal. You still have to walk to the terminal for the buses or taxis but the taxi driver can drop you back to the gate. Customs can be a pain. If an international flight has just arrived you are straight through - if not in the usual way maybe they have to drag them away from the coffee shop and it can take half an hour. The buses as I mentioned are every half an hour from the front of the terminal and go the station, there is usually a fleet of taxis all looking for a fare. Lille ATC are excellent and will give you a service from the French coast if you wish. It is of course a straight line from the coast to Lille with nothing to bother you except perhaps the nuclear facility at Calais if you happen to be that far East and low level.

[mikehallam]

Calais or Abbeville both still offer Douane. Latter is nicely along on the way Eu 3 for VLA. Gas there too.

mike hallam.

[AN2 Driver]

Fuji,

Lognes now also has no customs anymore? I understood it would be the last one to retain customs.

The French really seem to have it in for direct flights from the UK and Switzerland... Pity. France used to be one of my favorite places to fly to, but these times are practically gone by now. If I need to land on a 2 hour trip for customs, flying starts to become very unattractive indeed. One more nail in the coffin for GA in Europe.

[peterh337]

The short answer is that Paris is and AFAIK always has been about as "accessible" to GA as London is "accessible" to GA :)

It's easily 2 hours to the city centre, depending on details.

Very bad planning of the transport infrastructure, really.

The bizjets can get closer, and they can go into Toussus and get Customs (at some price) because I've seen some on the Biggin departures board. But to a jet client a £500-1000 fee is a non-event.

[Contacttower]

The short answer is that Paris is and AFAIK always has been about as "accessible" to GA as London is "accessible" to GA http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

To be fair I think London is much better, if you are really organised you can be at Victoria in about 45 mins from Biggin Hill; 15 minutes taxi to Bromley South station and then if you get on a fast service 16-20 mins into Victoria...I add 10 mins for the likely cumulative time in between different transport modes...

Biggin has customs, AVGAS, is reasonably priced and the staff are very helpful...I just wish it had an equivalent in Paris.

The bizjets can get closer, and they can go into Toussus and get Customs (at some price) because I've seen some on the Biggin departures board. But to a jet client a £500-1000 fee is a non-event.

How long ago was that? The NOTAM of no customs is quite recent. Not that I'd be prepared to pay £1000 for the privilege but how does one find out about these special arrangements? Also for a biz jet needing customs wouldn't they just go to Le Bourget?

[Fuji Abound]

Elstree is better. ;)

To be fair Lognes is no different in terms of time, sans customs which is a shame.

Blame the politicians for Schengen, or not as is the case.

[peterh337]

How long ago was that? The NOTAM of no customs is quite recent. Not that I'd be prepared to pay £1000 for the privilege but how does one find out about these special arrangements?

I saw it there a few months ago, well after the well known Customs changes.

However, there is significant "evidence" that people are still flying to some of these airports, direct to/from the UK, with a full encouragement from the airport itself. Not sure I would try it myself.

Also for a biz jet needing customs wouldn't they just go to Le Bourget?

Well, yes...

[Contacttower]

OK so has anyone been to Beauvais recently...have heard stories about issues with security...?

[mad_jock]

Same as anywhere else depends who is on. If you don't have some form of airport pass you might have issues. The type or level of pass doesn't actually seem to matter just that you have one.

Its not unkown for some private crews to get an official looking crew card made up which airport security seem happy with even though the card makes no pretence at all at being a security airport pass and just states they are a pilot with a photo. Remember to put a return address on the back and have a magnetc strip.

[maxred]

Its not unkown for some private crews to get an official looking crew card made up which airport security seem happy with even though the card makes no pretence at all at being a security airport pass and just states they are a pilot with a photo. Remember to put a return address on the back and have a magnetc strip.

Sounds like a business opportunity MJ.

What are French jails like???

[172driver]

OK so has anyone been to Beauvais recently...have heard stories about issues with security...?

Been there a couple of months ago, but only departing as pax on a commercial flight. There definitely were some movements of light a/c, saw a couple of Cessnas taking off.

Not the most accessible of airports, though. Unless you rent a car, you need to get to the train station (taxi or shuttle bus), then take a rather slow train to Gare du Nord. From memory, this takes between 1 and 1 1/2 hours. So airport-central Paris is 2 hours at least. IMHO you might well be better off in Lille.

[mad_jock]

I operated into there for 3 months with no pass. Quite liked the place to be honest. The ground handlers would deliver pizza to the aircraft and the dispatcher was a bit of a babe.

[Contacttower]

Same as anywhere else depends who is on. If you don't have some form of airport pass you might have issues. The type or level of pass doesn't actually seem to matter just that you have one.More specifically the issue I had heard was that of getting stuck while a Ryanair flight was being loaded...ie there isn't a separate way of getting through customs/security if a commercial flight is being loaded.

[mad_jock]

Your knackard there if the ryanair aircraft are in. They all come in at about the same time.

You won't get fuel or anything else until they have departed. Thats from about an hour before until after they leave.

The airport gets pretty hefty penalty charges if anything on the ground delays them. If you can avoid it when they are in its a nice airport.

[Contacttower]

Just looking at the Beauvais timetable there seem to be commercial flights pretty much all the time. I think I'm better off doing a customs stop in Deauville and then going to one of the small Parisian airfields actually...might seem like a pain but it could be turned into a nice lunch stop...

[Fuji Abound]

Yep - as mentioned earlier you will receive a very fine lunch at Lognes - the restaurant was excellent last time I was there at any rate! There are also some very good restaurants in Lille if you prefer the train.

Do let us know what you finally decide and how you get on - always interesting.

[gasax]

If it is just a customs stop then places like Calais or Le Havre are cheaper and as quick.

Overall the suggestion of Lille is almost bound to be quicker....

[Fuji Abound]

No Customs at Calais - I doubt there is customs at Le Havre any more.

Clearly the French are doing their best to keep the great unwashed the right side of the English Channel. ;)

[gasax]

Long discussion on another fora - customs supposedly to remain at Calais and Le Havre not on the list of those withdrawn.

[Fuji Abound]

Oh good. Be interested to know if that is still current and what arrangements are in place.

[Contacttower]

Do let us know what you finally decide and how you get on - always interesting.

I tried the Lille and TGV option on Saturday; worked OK but to honest the whole process was rather cumbersome. Flight to Lille was quick and on arrival a car met us at the general aviation apron and took us to the main terminal for customs etc. To my surprise there weren't any taxis outside (I guess we must have been in a bit of a lull of commercial flights) so had to wait about 15-20 mins for a taxi to come.

TGV then took about an hour into Gare du Nord. On paper it doesn't sound that bad but whenever you have multiple modes of transport involved; taxi, train etc one loses little bits of time in a cumulative fashion. The TGV is fast (ironically much faster than the train from Beauvais to Paris despite being three times the distance!) but the service is only hourly so unless you time things well there will inevitably be a wait for it.

I think Toussus might have been quicker because a stop at Deauville or something could have been done very quickly and once there we could have taken a taxi to a station and then quick train into the centre.

[Fuji Abound]

Intersting thanks for letting us know. I agree there is always inevitable delays stringing together a route plan and each segement rarely dovetails.

[Contacttower]

So next time I'll try Toussus or Saint-Cyr with a customs stop somewhere on the way...

[Contacttower]

Is there not something that AOPA or someone could try and do about the Paris situation? I mean at the moment this is a bit ridiculous that one can't fly direct to reasonably priced airfield in Paris from the UK.

[Fuji Abound]

Try lognes as mentioned earlier its where i always go

[AN2 Driver]

Jeppview still has Longes (LFPL) listed as Airport of Entry.

So what is going on, has it customs or not?

I understood that it is the last customs GA Airport in the Paris area.

Can anyone confirm that?

[Sillert,V.I.]

The type or level of pass doesn't actually seem to matter just that you have one.

Its not unkown for some private crews to get an official looking crew card made up which airport security seem happy with even though the card makes no pretence at all at being a security airport pass and just states they are a pilot with a photo. Remember to put a return address on the back and have a magnetc strip.

I see a business opportunity here for some enterprising farm strip owner to issue 'airside passes'. Mind you, they'd need to conduct the appropriate background checks to ensure the applicant could be safely entrusted not to misbehave when left unaccompanied in a field full of sheep. :E

[wsmempson]

Join AOPA and you get a very nice looking crew-card with a mug-shot on the front. This has got me past a bevvy of security guards....

[Contacttower]

Jeppview still has Longes (LFPL) listed as Airport of Entry.

According to the French AIP entry for LFPL; 'customs: NIL'

[AN2 Driver]

Um. Very bad indeed then. Someone better tell Jeppesen and if one of you flies there I'd be very grateful if you can ask on the spot what the situation is. I have relied on Longes being the last Customs place around Paris.....

Apears to me that France is more and more becoming a place to avoid. First the customs cut from almost everywhere, then them fining foreign pilots who go to AFIS aerodromes without a Level 4 in FRENCH....

[Contacttower]

I know the whole situation is ridiculous because now unless you go to Le Bourget (which is silly for a light piston) you are left with either doing a stop elsewhere, Beauvais or Lille, neither of which are very satisfactory because they are so far away...

[Contacttower]

Done some more research and Beauvais actually has a coach service non-stop to Paris which takes about 1h15 apparently. Drops you at Porte Maillot near the Arc de Triumphe so that could actually be reasonably convenient because the coach leaves directly from the airport...might try that next time...

[mikehallam]

Abbeville is right en route, it still has Customs etc for a simple fax or phone call, petrol available plus restaurant & hotel on site. Clear there quickly and inexpensively before choosing which GA airport close to Paris suits you best.

mike hallam

[dublinpilot]

Apears to me that France is more and more becoming a place to avoid. First the customs cut from almost everywhere, then them fining foreign pilots who go to AFIS aerodromes without a Level 4 in FRENCH....

Have people really been fined for using a French only airport without level 4 French? Has it been officially reported, or just a rumour?

[Sam Rutherford]

We do our own AIRCREW cards - I'm constantly amazed by how they're accepted all over the world! :)

[Coolhand78]

I have only seen the "french only" statement applicable "in absence of ATC" or "in absence of AFIS" (i.e. Beauvais, Muret, Auch, Lasbordes...). In that case, since it becomes a non controlled airfield, how could they force you to use french (or even to use the radio at all!)
I undestand this as an advice, for you to know that probably there will be nobody speaking english at your arrival, but nothing more that that.

[Contacttower]

Have people really been fined for using a French only airport without level 4 French? Has it been officially reported, or just a rumour?

It was reported to AOPA UK last year I think that a British pilot had been accosted at a French airfield and told by some official that he should not be using it unless he had French on his licence. AOPA did investigate I think but I never heard anything more about it. Certainly this thread was the first I'd heard of people actually being fined.

[wsmempson]

My memory of this was that it was an English pilot who arrived at a "French only" field, made an overhead join (which is not standard procedure in France) flew the circuit making RT calls in English and thereby upset the locals, somewhat...

Unless this was a different case?

[AN2 Driver]

Dublinpilot,

it has been quite widely reported here in Switzerland that several pilots operating out of there who have been operating for decades into those small airfields. One report even claims that a pilot operating NORDO with all respective permissions got fined.

It is also reported that one part of Germany has now started the same b.s, or is about to.

So you'll need a French LP4 in order to land on (FR) airports and you will likely need a German LP4 to land on certain airports there.

I say, stop the madness and make the LP requirements for controlled airspace/airports only. Otherwise, unless you speak all the ICAO Languages in existence in Europe, VFR flying into small airfields can become impossible in the very near future.

[172driver]

I say, stop the madness and make the LP requirements for controlled airspace/airports only. Otherwise, unless you speak all the ICAO Languages in existence in Europe, VFR flying into small airfields can become impossible in the very near future.

Which is exactly what the little dictators in Brussels and other places are trying to achieve. :yuk::yuk:

[hegemon88]

Hi all,

Reviving this old thread to ask if someone can clarify whether customs have returned to Toussus? The French AIP entry seems to show it is available?

Thanks,



/h88

[7AC]

My reading of it is that it is only available for domestic, Schengen and non EU
Schengen, e.g Switzerland. Non Schengen prohibited. I hope I'm wrong.

[hegemon88]

7AC, can I ask for a source of that? The LFPN entry in French AIP I accessed on the SIA website reads HX O/R PN 24 HR - no fixed hours, on request 24 h in advance. No mention of availability only to some class of arrivals. Are you saying this is outdated?

Thanks,



/h88

[wsmempson]

This is meant to be the definative list

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2013:167:0009:0017:EN:PDF

But I'd agree, the entry on the plate available from Eurocontrol and the French SIA says customs available at LFPN with 24hrs notice

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/PDF_AIPparSSection/VAC/AD/2/1406_AD-2.LFPN.pdf

[hegemon88]

Thanks for the list, wsmempson, I was looking for something definite in their AIP but probably in the wrong parts of it.

Right after posting here this morning, I received a very kind and helpful reply to my inquiry to their local Customs, along the lines of:

Suite à votre demande, je suis au regret de vous annoncer qu'un vol direct entre Toussus le Noble et un pays hors Schengen est illégal au niveau migratoire et qu'aucune dérogation même préfectorale n'est possible.

Un notam à été ajouté dans AIP Notam sur le site SIA ( Service de l' Information Aéronautique )




That settles it. Not sure if it's the best idea to get it NOTAMed rather than update the AIP AD entry, but hey, what do I know.



/h88

[7AC]

The source was the Notam I read on Friday last when pre-flighting.

"REF:B1215/14QCode:FZLT From: 2014-Mar-25 Tue 14:06 To: 2014-Oct-28 Tue 23:59 ICAO:LFPNTOUSSUS LE NOBLE CUSTOMS, POLICE: - FLIGHTS INSIDE SCHENGEN AND EU AREAS : AUTHORIZED WITH CONDITIONS, REFERS TO WWW.DOUANE.GOUV.FR - FLIGHTS INSIDE SCHENGEN AREA AND OUTSIDE EU : HX O/R PN 24HR FAX +33 0174259627 EMAIL: SR-DUGNY AT DOUANE.FINANCES.GOUV.FR - FLIGHTS OUTSIDE SCHENGEN FORBIDDEN."

[Vlad the Imbiber]

hegemon88 - The AIP references you were looking for are:

France AIP GEN 1.2: All aircraft arriving from abroad must carry out its first landing at an airport provided with controls of customs, police and health. Also all aircraft leaving the French territory for abroad must make their last stop in the French territory at such an airport.

France AIP AD 1.3 (Index of aerodromes) indicates which are international aerodromes.

[hegemon88]

Correct. I got to AIP GEN 1.2 but not 1.3 on the SIA website (why? dunno.. perhaps as I used a mobile version) and I read the info in 1.2 in conjunction with the AD entry which lists customs. Only then I found a NOTAM specifying it's only for intra-Schengen flights. Of course before the actual flight I would both go through a complete AIP and the relevant NOTAMs, I just thought it might be good to ask a question out here in the meantime.


/h88