Talking to ATC

[Steve150]

I'm still in the training phase of my ppl and had a few questions regarding ATC. We always ask for a basic service (sometimes with a transponder fitted, but not always) and say its either nav ex or general handling.

Firstly for an unplanned diversion during a leg of the route whats the procedure for talking to the ATC

And secondly if when I have my license and want to take passengers up sightseeing around the local do i just say that or will they need to know my route/turning points?

Thanks

[Fuji Abound]

Steve150

I can fully understand your questions, I recall it didnt make sense to me.

Let me explain.

ATC if you are not on an IFR flight plan (which you will not be) actually have no interest in where you are going or what you are doing. That is your starting point. To the extent they are interested, their interest goes as far as the area of airspace they control.

So lets assume you depart Southampton (for no other reason than it is as good as anywhere). Now Southampton is within class D airspace. Class D is controlled airspace so Southampton will want to know what your intentions are within their airspace and are entitled to either accept or deny your intentions. You could for example tell them you wish to track to Goodwood and then return to Southampton. If they have no conflicting traffic they will be happy to agree for you to route direct to Goodwood. As soon as you leave their class D airspace they have no interest in what you are doing. To the East of their airspace you are in uncontrolled airspace or OCAS - you can do as you like. For example having got to Goodwood you might decide you will pay Lyd a visit. No one cares and you don't have to talk to anyone . The only possible airspace that isn't OCAS en route is Shoreham and you only need to talk to Shoreham if you wish to transit their ATZ. Having got to Lyd perhaps you might decide to route back to Southampton. Once again no one is interested in your change of plan. Eventually you will close on Southampton's class D and once again they require to know your intentions and agree with you a clearance through their airspace back to the airport. So hopefully as you can see once you have departed an airport and left either their ATZ or class D veil into OCAS no one cares what you do or where you go all the time you are outside controlled airspace or outside an ATZ. Now many PPLs take comfort in talking to someone on the radio or feeling there is someone to talk to. That's fine. You will find in time it probably doesn't give you the comfort you are looking for, but that takes time. So in my example you might wish to talk to Farnborough who will provide you with a basic or traffic service between Southampton and Lyd. Again it is important to understand what they can do for you. Under a basic service very little. Once again they couldn't careless where you are going and how you get there. If you decide to do ten circuits of Brighton its of no interest to them? Under a traffic service its helpful for them to know your route because their job is to warn you of conflicting traffic. However once again if you wish to orbit Brighton for half an hour its no concern of theirs.

I hope you are getting the picture. New PPLs think in terms of flights being from A to B along a predefined route. That is how we all start. In reality you could depart Southampton clear their CAS and fly to Scotland without talking to anyone or telling anyone of your intentions. No one cares as long as you don't want to transit their bit of controlled airspace.

With more experience you may find that is exactly what you end up doing. You might depart Southampton and think its a nice day I will have a potter along the coast to Brighton, and then having got to Brighton and finding you are enjoying yourself, think I will take a trip to Manston. Perhaps at Canterbury you decide you would like to overfly Manston so you give them a call and request permission to transit their ATZ - permission is given and off you go.

Now some places like to know if you are landing away, because if you don't say you are they might send out the troops when you dont arrive back a few hours later. A few are keen to know where you are going but in reality they have no good reason to know or ask. In my experience you can usually say "G-XXXX is departing to the East with the intention of landing away".

We hear so often over the radio G-XXXX is on a navex, or sightseeing or routing to Lydd via this and that, in reality outside controlled airspace no one cares and you can make it up as you go along.

So to your first question similarly no one cares about your unplanned diversion. If you think I might like to call into Lydd for a coffee - go do it, the only person you need to speak to is Lydd to ask them if you may - its their ATZ and within their gift.

Now as I indicated earlier some places will get concerned if you have said you intend to land away and don't return when expected. If that is the case and if you change your plans and land away give them a call on the land line.

Does that make sense?

Inevitably you have tricks and tips to learn to make this all work in practice, but so many new PPLs have very little concept of what service they are really getting from ATC and the extent to which we are free to go where and as we please. It is a wonderful privilege I guess.

Today I went to Bembridge. Bembridge doesnt have any "air traffic" most of the time. When you depart their is no one to tell where you are going even if you wanted to. After leaving because it was such a glorious day I decided I would take in an orbit of the Isle of Weight - so I did. There is a bit of Southampton class D to negotiate so I asked for a transit which was given. Happy days.

[BackPacker]

Agree with Fuji. Outside controlled airspace nobody *wants* to talk to *you*. *You* might want to talk to somebody who can give you information/service what *you* need.

If you don't need anything you can just turn the radio off and enjoy the flight. (*) If you want information such as the QNH, a warning about pop-up NOTAMs and such, ask for a Basic Service. If you want information about other traffic, ask for a Traffic Service.

If you are on a formal flight plan and you need to divert, make sure you tell some ATC service so that they can inform your destination you're not going there anymore, and (if necessary) your diversion airport that you're coming. If you're not on a formal flight plan it's just like being late or absent for dinner at home: Make sure you inform the people that may be expecting you of your changed plans.

That's all there is. The controllers work for you and the radio is the way you can get them to work for you. Don't need them? Don't talk to them.

Of course inside controlled airspace this is totally different. You have to talk to them and follow their orders.

(*) Legally you have every right to turn the radio off. However that is considered by most to be bad practice. It's usually better to tune the radio to whoever provides the FIS or LARS service for the bit of airspace you're flying in, and monitor that frequency without actually speaking to them. You might pick up information such as a QNH change that way. And if somebody wants to talk to you, for instance because you are about to stray in controlled airspace, the controllers stand a fighting chance of actually getting hold of you. And you've heard of the listening squawks, have you?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Firstly for an unplanned diversion during a leg of the route whats the procedure for talking to the ATC
My last unplanned diversion, I called up Norwich and told them that I was being pushed north by a thunderstorm and might end up inside their airspace. "Fine," they said. Then I told them I wasn't going to outrun this line of storms and was going to land at Norwich. "Fine," they said.

If you don't want anything you don't need to talk to anyone. Before I called Norwich I hadn't been talking to anyone (I think I might have had London Information tuned in with the volume turned down, don't remember). If I had been talking to someone I'd have told them I was changing frequency.

And secondly if when I have my license and want to take passengers up sightseeing around the local do i just say that or will they need to know my route/turning points?
You don't need to say anything to anyone ... unless you'll be doing something that they will be interested in.

So in one case my passengers wanted to overfly a village and identify a house underneath someone's instrument approach path, so I called them up and said "do you mind if I spend a few minutes sightseeing in your instrument approach at such-and-such a height".

Or you might get asked "what's your operating area and level" or somesuch, in which case you might say you'll be to the north-west of the field at around 2,000' or whatever.

[funfly]

Local jollies, just say "Navex". Generally when you leave your airfield tell them you are on a navex (which lets them know that you plan to return to them) and give them an estimated return time.

[Lizz]

Fuji that's really good information :)

I hate to hijack this post and I'm sorry if this is an obvious question I do not yet know the answer to, but how do you know where controlled and uncontrolled airspace is? Is it on a chart or do you just get to know as you go along?

[soaringhigh650]

Outside controlled airspace nobody *wants* to talk to *you**

There's an exception. Where instrument approaches exist outside controlled airspace.

In such case it is recommended (but not mandated) to make yourself known.

[Jan Olieslagers]

how do you know where controlled and uncontrolled airspace is?

The AIP has it all - in the form of lists of sets of coordinates. Map makers take this info from the AIP and mark their publications accordingly.

[Crash one]

I hate to hijack this post and I'm sorry if this is an obvious question I do not yet know the answer to, but how do you know where controlled and uncontrolled airspace is? Is it on a chart or do you just get to know as you go along?

LIZZ, It is on the chart, marked as class D / A etc, or restricted / prohibibted / danger areas etc, outlined in various colours. You will be shown how to find it by an instructor.
Edit: This is UK airspace.

[Ultranomad]

There are two more reasons for a low-time pilot to remain in contact with ATC all the time, even in uncontrolled airspace:
1. It's better to give the guys on the ground an opportunity to warn you if you are about to do something stupid than to actually do it and suffer the consequences. I learned this one in a harmless but embarrassing way, having busted an active military training zone. Upon landing, I was met by a grinning instructor who said the military ATC had already phoned him about me.
2. Practice your RT skills.

[BackPacker]

Another reason to actually talk to somebody, instead of shutting the radio off, is that every type of ATC service (ATSOCAS like Basic, but also services inside CAS) imply an alerting service.

So if you don't respond at the time they expect you to respond (whatever that is, but typically your next announced waypoint) they will start looking for you.

I don't normally talk to FIS or LARS providers, I just monitor their frequency. Except when crossing the Channel, North Sea or other area where that alerting service gives a nice snug feeling. (Even though ATC can't do a lot for you when the engine quits over the North SEa.)

[chevvron]

When you're low time, it's a good idea to talk to ATC rather than just listen out. They might identify you in order to ease their own co-ordination, and this means they will be able to warn you if you about to infringe anything (controlled airspace, active Danger Area etc) plus if you have a problem of any sort (engine failure, uncertain of position etc) they'll have your position and be there to help rather than you having to call 121.5.

[aluminium persuader]

Phone a nearby ATC unit. Visit. Talk. Bring chocolate biscuits.

That is all.

ap:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Another reason to actually talk to somebody, instead of shutting the radio off, is that every type of ATC service (ATSOCAS like Basic, but also services inside CAS) imply an alerting service.

So if you don't respond at the time they expect you to respond (whatever that is, but typically your next announced waypoint) they will start looking for you.I dont follow.

If you are OCAS and working a frequency you are expected to respond to calls on that frequency. If you are not on the frequency or have "signed off" then there expectation of your doing anything or of them doing anything.

In my example you leave Southampton class D and wave them a goodbye, all the time you continue OCAS no one has any expectation of your talking to them what so ever.

I agree there are some good reasons for talking. These include:

1. AT may warn you before committing some dreadful blunder - straying into airspace, infringing a NOTAM etc., BUT be careful not to rely on them to do so,
2. It is good practice,
3. Rightly or wrongly many feel there is some comfort knowing there is "someone" on the other end of the radio and the radio is working,
4. You may receive traffic information that could be useful,
5. You might receive other information that could be useful, (although in the case of 4 and 5 you might receive this information anyway by keeping a listening watch).

Checron - I am not so sure about assuming they will have your position - they may, or may not, depending on the service they are providing. If OCAS they are more than likely to transfer you to D and D anyway.

[BackPacker]

I dont follow.

Of course if you signed off with ATC (ATSOCAS or CAS) you are no longer in receipt of a service from them. And by implication, you are no longer in receipt of an alerting service either. But as long as you are in receipt of a service, it should include an alerting service.

For example, you are talking to London Info for a Channel crossing. You've got a Basic service, which implies an alerting service. You've told London you'll be at the FIR boundary (or coasting in, or whatever) at a certain time. When that time comes you don't check in. And you haven't checked in with London a few minutes later either.

At that stage London is supposed to do something. Of course their first action is not to hit the panic button and scramble all SAR assets, but they will try to raise you first on their frequency, then on a few other frequencies you might be on, then inform D&D so they can maybe replay a radar track, and so forth. That's what the alerting service is about.

[chevvron]

Fuji abound: I did say 'they might identify you to ease their own co-ordination......'

[taxistaxing]

Outside controlled airspace nobody *wants* to talk to *you*


There are limits to this though. e.g. if you're trainsiting over someones ATZ at 2200 feet technically you're 'outside controlled airspace' but it would be rather daft not to give them a call.

Equally switching the radio off when flying around busy airspace (while perfectly legal) would be an odd thing to do in my opinion. You presumably want to be as safe as possible, and maintain as good a situtional awareness as possible and the radio (and the attendant traffic service/basic service) is a vital tool for doing this.

[Talkdownman]

Checron - I am not so sure about assuming they will have your position - they may, or may not, depending on the service they are providing. If OCAS they are more than likely to transfer you to D and D anyway.
Chevvron was a 'they' for over 30 years. I served some time with him, albeit a shorter sentence until being released for good behaviour. Squawking FIS traffic (Basic now) enabled us to cope with sudden emergencies with notable success without wasting time transferring to D & D. Problem was that some FIS squawkers ran away with the idea that they were getting a radar service and gave us a flea in our ear when something unexpected went past them. Subsequently some of us didn't bother squawking the FIS only (non-radar service) traffic just to get the message across that they weren't getting radar but it made the tiddler-minding 'Duty of Care' more difficult. Most LARS ATCOs worth their salt will be keeping a much closer eye than the Service Level Agreement would permit. The art is doing it without muddying the waters of the SLAs.

if you're trainsiting over someones ATZ at 2200 feet technically you're 'outside controlled airspace' but it would be rather daft not to give them a call. ATZs within Class G airspace are, of course, not CAS, only regulated airspace (Rule 45 refers). Years ago ATSOCA was called ATSORA (and, no, it's not shredded suet...) being outside regulated airspace thus not encompassing ATZs either. It was changed in order to not exclude ATZs for reasons I never really understood.

[soaringhigh650]

if you're trainsiting over someones ATZ at 2200 feet technically you're 'outside controlled airspace' but it would be rather daft not to give them a call.

I guess there is always an optional area of cover near any border. Mainly this is used to mitigate the risk of an airspace violation as well as providing you with any relevant traffic advisories.

You will not be seen in a positive light if you bust and you're totally not on frequency. :E

[Ultranomad]

Speaking of ATZs and places around them, Farnborough North recently offered me an interesting hybrid solution as I was transiting North Weald ATZ under Stansted CTA: keep the Farnborough squawk but contact North Weald, then come back to Farnborough's frequency. When I asked if I'd be better off deviating to the south, halfway between North Weald and Stapleford, Farnborough ATC said there was still plenty of North Weald traffic out there and I ought to let them know anyway.

[Red Four]

North Weald does NOT have an ATZ.

[Ultranomad]

Red Four, thank you, I stand corrected. It's only Stapleford that has.

[taxistaxing]

NW doesn't have an ATZ. It does have a lot of Yaks, warbirds and 250knot jet provosts though. Worth giving them a call for those reasons alone, if you're close!

[Fuji Abound]

Talkdown and Chevron - as always you raise some very good and wise points and are of course correct.

I have probably written far to much in response to the OP already. I was trying to give a simple explanation that would have made sense to me as a new PPL. Of course the problem in so doing is over simplification - there are quite a few caveats, and buts, and issues that only come with experience.

I guess I was like every other PPL, I just wanted to feel one of you helpful gentleman was on the other end of the radio and enjoyed sharing my life history!

I guess to the opening poster I would say gradually get accustom to using the radio less, take from this thread hopefully a better idea of how the system works and appreciate that not everyone wants to know your life story. In the mean time feel your way slowly. As someone else said most new PPLs probably talk to much on the radio and more to the point become obsessed with making the radio more of a priority than anything else. That has obvious dangers and the old maxim really does have merit.

[Talkdownman]

IMHO it's not just what you are doing that's important - it's what you are not having to do which is just as important. IMHO it's all about managing spare capacity and maintaining spare capacity rather than filling it with tasks for the sake of it. From both an air traffic perspective and an FI perspective I often hear and see an excess of effort for little product. I hear and see pilots giving their life stories etc. just for a Basic Service heads-down fiddling with plogs and GPSs etc. to the detriment of what is actually going on outside the aeroplane. For some, communicating seems to maximise workload and numb the aviating and the navigating, all for little gain. Yes, by all means, communicate with ATS for ATSOCA, but be discerning and selective, not simply automatons. Seek an appropriate service for the prevailing circumstances. Much of the 'Basic Service' RT traffic can actually hinder the LARS ATCO from executing his primary tasks by preventing him from using his primary tool. Similarly continuous chatter can actually prevent someone from saying something which actually happens to be important. Think 'is your transmission really necessary'.

[Red Four]

Much of the 'Basic Service' RT traffic can actually hinder the LARS ATCO from executing his primary tasks by preventing him from using his primary tool. Similarly continuous chatter can actually prevent someone from saying something which actually happens to be important. Think 'is your transmission really necessary'.:ok::ok:

This sums it up brilliantly. If only the CAA would put this in their guidance in very big letters, and all FIs would teach students along the same lines.