Uk to Spain vfr

[aerofoil1]

Good morning all fellow aviators
Right I'm planning on going to Spain in either a c152 or pa28 haven't decided yet although the latter might be more beneficial in terms of space and comfort.
Currently don't have a 737 type rating yet but I'm working on it!
Plus not many airfields hire those do they!
But on a serious note
Does this routing look do able.
I haven't yet got the charts so I've not looked at the airspace in detail
Here is the routing
Egbm-egjj for fuel then
Egjj-lfbd overnight there and re fuel
Lfbd-leso again more fuel
Leso-lemu stay there a couple of nights

Sounds pretty straight forward but with our knowing the airspace restrictions not 100%
would it be advisable to avoid the Pyrenees
Also what maps would you recommend ? Jepersens?
Finally in terms of checking the weather enroute which website is useful
Thanks again

[aerofoil1]

Delete the thread ?

[BackPacker]

Delete at least one of the two threads you created with the same subject. As there is no useful content in neither at this stage, your pick wihch to delete. But if you delete this one, non-content responses like mine and airpolices will be deleted as well, leaving you with a clean thread to discuss your (lack of) planning.

(And related to the original question, if you can afford such a trip you can also afford a subscription to Skydemon. Draw your route, see what airspace you hit, circumnavigate, THEN come back to us for suggestions. We're not here to do basic planning for you - you learned that in your PPL training.)

[aerofoil1]

I have deleted the duplicate thread which was posted in error
I thought this was a forum where other pilots could get advice I'm not planning on doing the trip this year
Jees next time I won't bother asking
Incidentally I'm well aware of the need for flight planning just wanted advice and thoughts
Cheer up!

[BackPacker]

Incidentally I'm well aware of the need for flight planning just wanted advice and thoughts
I'm not planning on doing the trip this year

Aerofoil1, you realize we're just here too to share some wisdom, have a few informed discussions, learn something from others, right? We're not paid here to answer your questions or do basic research for you. And we occasionally are in a grumpy mood which is not of your making, but might influence the way we post here. (As I am today...:{)

Your question is extremely vague. On the one hand you're babbling about a 737, then about a C172 or PA28, you mention a few airfields but have clearly not spent any time investigating the route between them. You don't give any hint on what sort of experience you have in crossing significant mountain ranges for instance. You don't seem to have done any investigation with regards to weather websites (loads of info on those already on here.)

This means that the type of posts you solicit are probably very long-winded, detailed ones, which might take up to an hour to compose. And if your plan is just a whim, not going to happen this year and possibly never, do you honestly expect us to spend that hour for you?

There's loads of people who are perfectly willing to help you a lot, with very detailed answers. But not on a whim like this, when you have not even done the most basic research.

[aerofoil1]

I was merely trying to inject some light hearted humour in the post
As I've never flown overseas only via low cost airlines I am just after experiences of others who have flown a similar route
Yes the post is vague granted but not retarded
Now if I had posted a question like
"How do you fly a plane" then yes shoot me down!
Obviously before the trip happens I will have done my homework and obtained the necessary flight planning
The post is purely aimed at drawing on other peoples experiences

[BackPacker]

The post is purely aimed at drawing on other peoples experiences

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/488054-weather-information-spain.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/489961-crossing-channel.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/485951-vfr-mallorca.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/480705-reduction-french-airfields-customs.html

Just from typing "Spain" in the search box. I have not tried any of the other obvious keywords from your post.

[srayne]

Here is the routing
Egbm-egjj for fuel then
Egjj-lfbd overnight there and re fuel
Lfbd-leso again more fuel
Leso-lemu stay there a couple of nights

Sounds pretty straight forward but with our knowing the airspace restrictions not 100%
would it be advisable to avoid the Pyrenees
Also what maps would you recommend ? Jepersens?
Finally in terms of checking the weather enroute which website is useful

Hi,

I've just done a very similar trip in a PA28 - very easy. Our route was
Cambridge -> La Rochelle -> San Sebastian -> Murcia (San Javier).

Beware that LEMU (Muchamiel) has no fuel thus will require an additional stop in Alicante which is expensive. This is why we chose Murcia. Fuel availability in the South of France was also a problem (August) so double check the French AIS and NOTAMs.

Crossing the Pyrenees from San Sebastian to Pamplona VOR is no problem VFR as long as you can get the 5000ft altitude on the day.

Coming back we routed Murcia - > Barcelona Reus (fuel Stop only) -> Carcassonne -> Annecy -> Reims Prunay -> Cambridge. This route allows you to cross the mountains at low level around the coast.

Maps we took were the Jepp half mil for Spain and the Carte Bossy one mil VFR for France. This together with SkyDemon was more than adequate (beware that SkyDemon Spanish charts do not show much VFR sector and route info yet - although this is being worked on). We used Skydemon to load and print out the AIP plates for all the airfields we needed.

For TAFs and METARs we used SkyDemon.

Fuel in Spain was about £2.20/L (incl VAT) and in France about £1.80/L.

Landing Fees from €15-€30 and parking was very cheap.

Here's (http://www.theflyingschool.co.uk/spain/spainguide.htm) a good guide for Muchamiel if you're still going there. Here (http://www.aena-aeropuertos.es/csee/ccurl/655/209/guia%20tarifas%20aena%20aeropuertos%202012_EN.pdf)are the Spanish charges for AENA airports and you can find the Spain AIP here (http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725163//AD-Aerodromes.html).

[Pilotage]

You might do worse than ask around the microlight community.

The 2012 World Microlight Championships were held in Spain, and so far as I know all of the British team flew there and back. Being microlights they'd have had to be day-VFR all the way, and their performance will have been similar to the aircraft you're thinking of.

All the teams names are at Latest News (http://www.microlightcomps.org/index.php/latest-news) and most of them should be easy to track down as a fair number run flying schools.

P

[aerofoil1]

Thanks Callum and yes the hours will come in handy

[davrus]

Wow i am left gob smacked

Not posted on here for many years and after seeing the first few replys i dont think i will ever both.

I did however think this was a place to ask question and share experiences but obviously that does not seem the case.

Hats off to the posters that did help with the original question.

If i could answer ir give advise aerofoil1 then i would but unfortunatly havnt done the said flight but good luck and enjoy.

As for the misurable ones why comment if it is not of any use to the original question.

Sorry to rock the boat but this forum will soon be as bad as face book.

Rant over.

[Pace]

As the others have stated go Via San Sebastian. The Beauty of that route is you can do it all low level as far as San Sebastian and there are numerous alternative airfields for you to dive in en route.
I have routed IFR via San Sebastian in a Seneca five twin on my way to Malaga numerous times but then did the trip in a Mooney very low level following the beaches all the way down.
The Mooney was a far more exciting experience at a few of hundred feet following the coast and you would have to be a complete idiot to
Get lost !

Pace

[Whiskey Bravo]

Hello - we did a similar trip in the summer, ending in Portugal, in an Arrow. France is a doddle and you can either do it low level, or get up to FL65 and follow the Class E 'low level' routes. We did EGHH - LFRS (stop overnight), LFRS - A25 - BMC - B19 - ENSAC - MAGEC - LESO. This was all at FL85, which keeps you well clear of all the low level military activity and the French controllers (who are excllent) will pass you seamlessly from one sector to the next and get you cleared through all the Class D (at least in our experience). The approach into LESO is fabulous!

Another option is to route as high/low as you like down the West coast of France, however beware of the very large danger areas. Our inital plan was favouring routing through these, firstly for the most direct routing and secondly for the coastal scenery. On the way down we were unable to get a crossing, although some will tell you that you can simply route through at your own risk. We were given very positive instructions from ATC to change track and had the inland route ready to go in case this happened. We had checked the activity before departing Nantes and were even told they were cold... On the return, we telephoned Brest Info before departure, checked status, if we could get a crossing, who to call etc. and had no problem coming this way, but i was on a weekend. Brest Info very helpful - can't find their number right now, but I recall it wasn't too difficult to find.

You might want to check out handling etc at Bordeaux. My research suggested they were a bit more LHR like than other French regional airfields. Nantes were a pleasure and not very expensive.

Feel free to PM me and I'll share what I can.

[aerofoil1]

srayne
thanks for all that info very informative

[dublinpilot]

Bordeaux do indeed see themselves as a large commerical airport.

When I went in 2005, it was compulsory handling at €60. I'm sure it's more now.

All we got for he €60 by the way was an annoying handler who drove over immediately after landing to offer us a lift to his office in the mini bus. When told we'd need about 20 minutes before we were ready he left and came back after 5 minutes and then another 5 minutes. So it was somewhat annoying. In the end we told him we'd be happy to walk the 50 meters to his office and see him inside ;) They also look our payment for the landing charges and under duress, organised the aircraft to be refulled.

I'm suggest you look at La Rochelle which breaks your journey into two relatively equal halves rather than the lobsided split that Bordeaux gives you.

I'm not sure what you're flying and what your range is, but if it was me, I'd go straight to France, perhaps Breast. By doing so you can clear customs early and are free to land whereever you want after that. ie you no longer need to land at a customs airport.

If your range is good enough for 350nm, then you could go straight to LESO without the need to stop in between.

By the way, PocketFMS (http://www.pocketfms.com) does have all the VFR sectors in Spain (has had now for nearly nine years ;) ). It too can handle all your flight planning across Europe on such a trip, and works on your iPhone, iPad, Android, Windows, WinCE.

dp

[Pace]

WB

I went from La Rochelle all the way to San Sebastian a few hundred meters out to sea following the beaches at a few hundred feet with no problems with Danger areas and in ATC communication all the way!

It was CAVOK with clear skies and excellent visibility! Changing to Biarritz I was horrified to hear them giving RVR with unforecast fog something you have to be aware of in that area with the cold Atlantic.
I was then a few hundred feet above solid cloud with San Sebastian still in the clear (just) popping over the fog banks San Sebastian runway appeared in one clear patch over the airport which fogged in 20 minutes later.

Pace

[stickandrudderman]

Airpolice and Backpacker, I think you should apologise.
A naive question by the OP? Perhaps.
An arrogant and bullying response from you two? Definately.
Just because you're on an anonymous forum is no excuse for a lack of courtesy.
Have you never asked a dumb question in your life?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[peterh337]

I have some Spanish and French VFR trips on my website. They are quite detailed and were written to assist people doing long trips.

San Seb no longer has Customs so cannot be flown to/from the UK directly (a 24 carat stupid decision but so many airports are not run for aviation purposes).

Those RAs off the west coast of France tend to be inactive at weekends, but a smarter procedure for VFR is to always plan two routes: one which is assured, and one which you actually want to fly. Then make the selection once airborne and when you can get French ATC to advise on the activity of e.g. R31A1 or whatever.

Obviously watch the French nuclear power station areas. Notams and current charts are a must for foreign flying. In the UK you can be sloppy but if you do that abroad you will one day get caught with your trousers down. The French especially have bizzarely arrogant ways of dealing with this stuff.

Sadly I am also one of those who does occassionally say that posters need to ask well formed questions if they want people to type up long detailed answers. This issue appears on every internet forum and is not getting any better as the years go by, mainly IMHO due to the proliferation of smartphones which have brought out a lot of "low effort content creation", but their owners are still somehow expecting others to spent time on typing up good replies. It just ain't going to happen, and that is why when you do a but of google research on almost any topic you dig out hundreds of web forum discussion hits pointing to long threads packed with banal one-liner posts and you have to spend hours wading through all this... and most of them are dead ends. Whether you like it or not, human nature is what it is, and this is why the quality of online discussion is declining - everywhere, not just the aviation forums.

[Whiskey Bravo]

Pace,

Sounds like a great trip and that was basically the plan, although not quite at 200ft... As I said, ATC were very insistent that we didn't route through the danger areas, but were then very accomodating getting us around to be fair. Big lesson was speaking to Brest on the telephone who gave us all the detail we needed for the return and that was the way we routed back from Burgos.

Perhaps we should have been a little more insistent, but on our first trip beyond the Channel Islands or Wales we weren't quite ready to start an international incident without being absolutley sure we were in the right.

Second using La Rochelle or Nantes to split up the trip. If the seat cushions are of 1978 vintage 2 ish hr legs are about enough!

[Pace]

we weren't quite ready to start an international incident without being absolutley sure we were in the right.

I probably do start international incidents in my wake :E (only joking) It was a while back and without checking the charts I do not remember that many restrictions close into the shoreline remembering the DAs were further out to sea!

Pace

[Whiskey Bravo]

... and spend some time reading Peter's trip reports, they are a mine of knowledge. Suggest getting a full subscription to Meteoblue for weather too (you can just do it for a month if required). If you are getting a 2000/3000/4000ft cloud base at LESO/LEBB it doesn't mean you are going to get across the mountains VFR. Depending on the time of year you are looking to go they can collect a lot of cloud... If you are used to flying relatively short trips in the UK the weather planning is a little different to when crossing half a continent.

With two of us with IMC ratings we got out of the the UK on a Y plan and were then above a solid cloud base all the way to Rennes, which cleared to CAVOK as forecast to arrive at Nantes. We then got a lucky break and the following day was CAVOK allowing us to get down to LESO and then continue into Portugal where it got a bit convective, but pretty much exactly has we had expected, so we managed to slip in to our planned fuel stop about 30 mins ahead of a cell, waited a couple of hours for things to clear and routed on to Evora which was the final destination.

The return was a totally different kettle of fish and we waited a long time before we were able to depart VFR in Spain and have cloud tops over the mountains low enough for us to be VMC on top over. This cloud was all sitting along the mountains in the North of Spain and there were many days where it went up too high for us to get over not having the sort of equipment Peter does. Once a couple of miles out over water, all was CAVOK again!

Meteoblue was VERY useful for predicting the tops, which you don't get from a TAF/METAR or low level forecast. Getting a login for the the French weather site is quick and painless, but despite applying a month or so in advance I didn't get access to the Spanish or Portugese ones until after we got back.

Go enjoy, just spend some time on the planning. Maybe we did too much, but we did at least have a very enjoyable trip with very few surprises that weren't weather related.

[mcgoo]

Backpacker, it must have taken some of your very valuable time to compose your post anyway! Anybody ever tell you if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing! If you can't be bothered to give a constructive reply, move on!

[davrus]

They are both people that suffer small penis syndrome in my book but i do take on board airpolice's comment about my English. Didn't realise that he was also reading threads and judging people's spelling but if it makes him happy then who am i to judge.

I assume with his user name he is trying to live the dream but then again by looking at his useless comments it should have been actionman or something like that but i will leave you all to comment on the question in hand and help the o.p for fill his task.

[rans6andrew]

Pilotage is correct, 5 off 3 axis aircraft and 2 flexwings in the UK team flew to Marugan, 60 miles NNW of Madrid, for the World Microlight Championships. The 5 off 3 axis aircraft flew in a loose formation, the 2 flexwings flew solo and took different routes.

The formation of 3 axis types all met up at Headcorn after work on a Friday afternoon and crossed to Abbeville for the first night stop over. Cheap-ish Motel, restaurant on site, cheap landing fees, free overnight parking, fuel except Mondays, customs with 24 hour notice.

On the second day routed by Dreux (Mogas had been arranged in advance), Wannafly (UK run microlight school near to Poitiers) (Mogas and buffet lunch arranged in advance) and Montpezat (French Microlight centre with fuel and restaurant on site) where we overnighted (camping).

On the third day the intention was to route via Oloron (in France) and then to St Cilia de Jaca (Spain) via a lowish route through the Pyrenees but on the day Oloron was cut off by thunderstorms and St C de J was closed for a model aircraft world championship event. The final route went directly from Montpezat and went over the Pyrenees at between 11 and 12 thousand feet amsl. The highest peak close to the route was over 10 k. The turbulence was OK but the viz could have been better at times. Check your weather AND take local advice before heading over.

Some of these places are microlight only so won't be available to GA traffic but equally the number of microlight friendly airfields in the south of France is a bit thin on the ground.....

In Spain it gets worse. We visited Lumbier (microlight only) but they were closed/deserted, odd on a Sunday lunchtime, no fuel. Sanguesa has a disused but very impressive control tower but otherwise is in terminal decline, there is a petrol station within walking distance. In practice, when you land in the thistle field which passes as an airfield the traffic stops to take photos and they are happy to run you to the petrol station.

Do not go to Garray. The clown that runs the airfield has selective understanding of English (any queries or complaints will be met with "no understandee" gestures and much shouting) but is quite happy to overcharge and rip you off. When we arrived there it was clear that the weather was deteriorating rapidly and it looked as though we might have to stop overnight. He demanded 10 Euro for landing. The sign in the office said landing fees were 3 E, when we pointed this out he tore the sign down and threw it in a rubbish bin. Then he wanted 20 E for overnight parking, told us we were not allowed to camp but he could run us into the town for 30 E per car load (there were 9 in the party). There was Mogas in a bowser but it ran out after only two aircraft had been filled and he said no more fuel until the next day. Eventually he was persuaded to sell us some Avgas at an inflated price. As it happened the torrential rain and thunder storms passed through leaving just enough time for us to fly to Marugan before sunset. We divided the fuel we had to enable everyone to make the last two hour leg and then took off before we could be stopped.

While at Marugan my aircraft was damaged when a tornado caused a marquee to fly across the aircraft park so I can't report on the return trip but I do know that 4 off 3 axis and two flexwings flew back to the UK.

I was a bit disappointed with the level of detail on the Spanish paper charts but most impressed with my Aware unit. I only have the UK charts in the Aware but that did not stop it reporting all of the airspace in France and Spain for the route we took. GA and microlights are way, way down the pecking order in Spain and the charts are not really suitable for our level of activity. My permission to fly in Spain states that the maximum height above the ground I am allowed to fly is just 300M (1000 ft!) which is difficult when you see some of the terrain.

Rans6....

[peterh337]

I think most people flying reasonably seriously VFR around Spain use the Jepp "VFR/GPS" charts.

They are not perfect but they give you a consistent presentation across most of Europe.

I would use them for their entire coverage area, except UK and France both of which have IMHO better alternatives (the 1:1M SIA ones for France, not the very pretty but silly IGN ones which only go to 5000ft)

[aerofoil1]

I guess people are entitled to there own opinion which I respect
But it wasn't such a dumb post surely
I've never flown a trip like this so I am just gathering as much information from people before I do the actual flight planning next year

[stickandrudderman]

Aerofoil,
I hope that I didn't give the impression that my reference to a "dumb question" was about your question in particular, rather it was a general question to the two that responded rather unpolitely (IMHO).

In my book there's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers.:ok:

[srayne]

aerofoil1,

A subscription to Efax.com was also very useful for PPR, checking fuel availability etc., especially in Spain where emails are often ignored or the addresses are not published in the AIP. This allows you to send/receive faxes using your smartphone/tablet. I think the first month is free.

[rans6andrew]

I should have added ref charts: The Spanish charts have been "about to be up-issued" since the beginning of the year but have been slipping back month by month. As a consequence the usual outlets have not bought any more of the old issue charts for fear of being left with stock nobody wants so getting any charts was difficult. In the end, as departure was looming, I took the only ones I could find in the UK. I can't remember what they were and I gave them away before returning home.

[aerofoil1]

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread some valuable information here which i will take on board thanks to all for taking the time and effort to share your thoughts!
One last question what sort of budget would be practical?

[patowalker]

One that will cover expenses plus contingencies.

[aerofoil1]

No offence taken of the kind thanks for your input thou:ok:

[Evanelpus]

Wow i am left gob smacked

Not posted on here for many years and after seeing the first few replys i dont think i will ever both.

I did however think this was a place to ask question and share experiences but obviously that does not seem the case.

Hats off to the posters that did help with the original question.

If i could answer ir give advise aerofoil1 then i would but unfortunatly havnt done the said flight but good luck and enjoy.

As for the misurable ones why comment if it is not of any use to the original question.

Sorry to rock the boat but this forum will soon be as bad as face book.

Rant over.

With 7 posts in the last four and a bit years you won't be missed.

Hope the door doesn't hit you too hard on the way out:D

[peterh337]

A subscription to Efax.com was also very useful for PPR, checking fuel availability etc., especially in Spain where emails are often ignored or the addresses are not published in the AIP. This allows you to send/receive faxes using your smartphone/tablet. I think the first month is free.

I agree re having a fax option (though I don't use that particular company). I do a fair bit of flying around Europe (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/) and often find email addresses are duff but the fax # works. An email2fax facility is a great solution.

Spain.... airports there ritually ignore communications of any kind, especially in English :E Also much ground staff cannot speak English even at the bigger international airports. Greece is actually much easier, despite having a more fraught aviation scene (silly opening hours etc) because they speak English well, so in most cases, if pressed for time, you can just phone them up.

this forum will soon be as bad as face book

I think there is a proven theory that all forums degrade to the point where nobody can use them anymore :) FB will be next (I hope).

[Jude098]

For a stop-over instead of La Rochelle why not try Biscarrosse-Parentis. Fuel available, no landing fees and ATC Mon-Fri only with Sat and Sun freecall.
I have friends at the Airpark there who do excellent accommodation, either B&B or half board.
PM me for info. You can park up in front of the front door!
Jude

[srayne]

One last question what sort of budget would be practical?

Take enough Euros in cash to cover your fuel costs, even airports that take credit cards often (especially in Spain) "cannot get the machine to work". In our experience cash is often quicker and simpler than paying the fueller by credit card. Make sure you get receipts for fuel/landing/parking fees and keep these long after you get home as it's not unusual for airports to bill you for fees that you've already paid a year later.

We budget for each stop-over approx €30 landing, €10/night parking, €30 taxi to/from airport, €150/night hotel room (this can vary according to your taste of course). Add food and drink and entertainment (say €40/day each) and you should be OK. Food, drink and hotel bills can be from very cheap to very expensive - your choice.

Make sure you have a credit card with enough credit to get home by scheduled airline should you break down or to pay a local engineer to fix the problem.

As said previously if you plan well then the trip will be much easier thank you expect.

PS If you pre-book hotel rooms make sure you choose those with a decent cancellation policy (e.g. allow cancellations up to 24hrs in advance).

PS A very good tip I picked up from this forum is to always fuel up when you arrive if possible. Ask the tower when taxiing in to call the fueller. It also means that departure times can be a lot more predictable and less stressful.

[aerofoil1]

Thanks Jude will bear that in mind

[aerofoil1]

Ok so putting the route into sky demon coming down western coast of France is full of danger areas are atc likely to allow a transit there although most only seem to be active at week days

[Whiskey Bravo]

Aerofoil, I think we already answered that one. On a weekend it is unlikely you'd have any difficulty getting a crossing, I have done it on a weekday and been refused and a weekend where it wasn't an issue. You should plan for both options and be prepared to reroute if needed. If you look at my earlier posts I have provided a routing that will avoid all of the inland restricted areas. For VFR touring I would suggest have a desired route, a backup route and an assured route. The assured would be low level keeping clear of CAS, the backup perhaps being a higher level and where you may need some zone transits and the desired being your nice straight and short track.