AMR pilot demands information from ATC about terror threat

[fortystripes]

Irate Pilot Loses Patience After Terror-Threat Delay - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/irate-pilot-loses-patience-terror-threat-delay/story?id=17256186#.UFjxyZh_Utt)

"OK. We're surrounded by emergency vehicles, there's a reason for this," the pilot is heard saying in the audio recording of the exchange. "Somebody's got to give us the reason or we're going to evacuate the aircraft. You got 60 seconds."

"We have the information, can you possibly call [number blocked out]?" the control tower asked.

"Negative, I demand the information right now over a frequency," the pilot said.

Bravo to this pilot, not letting security theatre get between him and the safety of his passengers! :ok:

[ATPMBA]

The pilot is lucky the FBI did not taser him!

The pilot should realize the bad guys could be monitoring the frequency too.

[Evey_Hammond]

"Irate" pilot??? Irate means angry or enraged. Irritated means angered, provoked, or annoyed. Personally I go with "irritated" (i.e. annoyed) and yet another case of poor journalistic skills :ugh:

[wozzo]

The pilot should realize the bad guys could be monitoring the frequency too.
The bad guys could be hiding under your bed right now!

[Squawk-7600]

Bravo Sir, Bravo!

[bubbers44]

Good call, I evacuated a 737 once with a sabotage threat because calling company twice, once in the air and once after landing asking for airstairs and they failed to comply. Used all 4 slides. Can't say the details here but they had their chance to comply and didn't. You have to do what you have to do and he did. Every seat was full and hated to do it but couldn't leave them on the airplane. They didn't seem very interested in my request so I told them if the stairs aren't there I am using all 4 slides, so did. That was my first month as captain with a brand new FO landing at LAX.

[bubbers44]

After landing and approaching our sabotage remote spot called ops and asked where are my airstairs? They responded we are working on it. After every passenger was off the airplane, 20 minutes later they showed up so the sniffing dogs could check out the airplane. By the way it was a positive threat, our flight number. Maybe some passenger that couldn't get boarded because it filled up wanted revenge.

We had a bunch of San Jose school kids on board so they loved the slide. They were going to Disneyland that day for thrill rides. Guess we gave them the first one.

[sevenstrokeroll]

The pilot is the boss, not the FBI, not ATC, not anyone else.

He asked for an answer on the FAA ATC radio frequency, he should have gotten an answer. Supplying a phone number ...just too much...there is NO requirement that the pilot in command has a cell phone to call for special information.

OH and to the bright boy who said the bad guys might be monitoring the radio...there are ways to MONITOR a cell phone call too.

Sheesh.

I remind the world of a little regulation known as the ultimate authority of the pilot in command.

MY old, cheap computer can't do the radio call so I didn't hear it...just read the transcript here.

good for the pilot...shame on everyone else.

[fireflybob]

bubbers44, good decision - I applaud you and also this Captain.

Reminds of this case where pax were detained on the a/c for over 2 hours after a bomb threat:-

Bomb threat (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/221454-ryanair-air-arran-bomb-threat-diversions-pik-merged.html)

[aterpster]

Amen. Similar c**p happened to me long before 911 at Tulsa. When I couldn't get information from either the tower or the company, I evacuated the 727 on the ramp by the rear stairs. They simply wouldn't clear me for takeoff and sounded really strange.

I returned to the ramp, but they wouldn't let me have a gate and would not say why. I said, "Okay, if no one is going to tell me what is going on I am going to evacute the airplane." I didn't believe it was so urgent that I needed to use the slides and risk injuries. Finally, once I started the evaculation the company told me it was a bomb scare. This was 1979 or so.

Once it was over the idiot FBI agent and I exchanged unpleasant words in the ramp office.

This lunacy on the part of government well precedes the current batch.

I didn't write a report nor did the company ask for one. Strange, really strange.

[bubbers44]

Yes, under those conditions you would not want to approach the terminal building. You should have known what the threat was as PIC. Your company really screwed up as mine did and you had to initiate the deplaning of people with no input. It is obvious why the company didn't want your report because it would have made them look incompetent. They wouldn't like that, would they? I am so happy to be retired and not put up with some of the nonsense that still happens. I think I will just go fishing instead.

By the way the Reno Air Race was perfect this year. Perfect weather and no injuries. Only one gear failure accident that really messed up the airplane. Steven Hinton from Chino, Ca won again for the 3rd time in a row in his P51 Strega. His dad, Steve Hinton, gave me a couple of rides in the P51 in the 70's when I was running him through the instrument course at Chino. Both are the best pilots I have ever met. Last year was tragic with the P51 flying into the spectators 300 ft from us killing 11 and injuring at least 50. One man lost his leg at the crash site and was there again with a peg leg with shorts on. You have to give him credit.

[lomapaseo]

Clearly a case where the guys on the ground are still assessing the situation and haven't figure out whether the pilot is still in command.

The pilot offered to prove that he was in command by his non-life-threatening action. Opening a door would have confirmed his ability if that was necessary

enough said

I expect this type of scenario will be repeated.

[bubbers44]

It will. Just do what you have to do.

[dwshimoda]

A Fin Air flight from Helsinki and the American Airlines flight from San Francisco were searched by law enforcement officials Monday afternoon after the call saying the specific flights each had a terrorist secreted in a wheel well,

Is this for real? All the way from Helsinki in the wheel well, still alive, and waits until on the ground to do something? WTF????

[bubbers44]

He would be a clump of ice when the gear went down and he fell to the ground. No security threat at all. No sane person would try that. Hopefully he missed the roof of a house and hit the street.

[fortystripes]

Even a rebreather-style SCBA system gives 6 hours capacity at the most, to say nothing of the chill.

[racedo]

Hopefully he missed the roof of a house and hit the street.

Typical heartless capitalist only think of private property;) , what about the school, old peoples home, hospital, childrens playground that could have been in the way.:E

[Dg800]

The bad guys could be hiding under your bed right now! Even worse, you could be a bad guy and not even know it! :E

I can understand why the captain would insist on continuing the exchange on an official and hence recorded frequency instead of calling on an unrecorded land line. It's always a good idea to have solid evidence on your side, should the **** hit the proverbial, and to avoid getting into a he said/she said type of situation at all cost.

BTW I too missed the part where the captain, according to the TV anchorman, "blew his top". :mad:

[merlinxx]

On the Aeroplane there is a command structure, the Captain is in command simple:ok: On the ground the chain of command is mostly a structure of "nothing to do with me chief" applications:ugh::mad:

[PENKO]

To be fair to the anchorman, he does say that the captain did what everyone, including the passengers, would expect him to do: demand an explanation.

[SLFguy]

"Bravo to this pilot, not letting security theatre get between him and the safety of his passengers!"

Apologies if I'm being thick here but I don't understand this post..

Are you saying the passengers were in danger if they remained on board?

I mean there are emergency vehicles in attendance and the pilot is given an alternative, (and possibly less compromising to the operation), means of communication and he refuses??

Sorry guys - not with the majority of you on this one.

Yeah,yeah SLF etc.. whatever.

[PENKO]

Don't worry SLF, I would have called that phone number, but I can understand the initial frustration of this captain. Funny thing is we don't get to hear how the story developed after the 60 second ultimatum from el capitano. Did he call anyway? Did the ATC-lady pass on some more info?

[Flying Bagel]

I don't get what information would have been so compromising that you can't get it over the air. Bad guys monitoring the frequency? So what? Some of you have watched Die Hard too many times.

[rennaps]

Also over the air it is recorded

[mono]

To SLFguy,

Let's put it in a way you may understand.

You are told there is a bomb in your car - would you stay and sit in the car, or would get the :mad: out and as far away from it as you could?

I know what I'd do.

[belfrybat]

The pilot should realize the bad guys could be monitoring the frequency too.

Let's see. He can't be told what the bad guys are up to because they could be monitoring the frequency and get told what they're up to. Makes sense, really makes sense.

Besides, if there's an alleged bomb on board just keep the pax on board until it goes off. Can't have them deplaned and wandering all over the place, won't do at all.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Besides, if there's an alleged bomb on board just keep the pax on board until it goes off. Can't have them deplaned and wandering all over the place, won't do at all.


I don't think you people realize the regulatory and statutory ramifications of a couple hundred people exiting onto airport grounds without several badges covered with some unknown hieroglyphs, without ever watching a 90 minute safety video and perhaps the worst offense possible to humankind, no safety vest.

Even ignoring the above, there is also the enviromental threat of disturbing the burrow of the spotted winged gopher tortoise no doubt spooning his mate during his once in a decade mating cycle.

Seriously, you people are anarchists as is this brigand Captain :E

[Piltdown Man]

It's not important who is listening. What is important are the lives of the passengers. So quite reasonably, the captain wanted know more about the threat so he could decide wether or not to evacuate.

[saeedkhan]

Have you ever thought if it was a 747 classic

[His dudeness]

I don't think you people realize the regulatory and statutory ramifications of a couple hundred people exiting onto airport grounds without several badges covered with some unknown hieroglyphs, without ever watching a 90 minute safety video and perhaps the worst offense possible to humankind, no safety vest.

Made my day, thanks.

[SLFguy]

"To SLFguy,

Let's put it in a way you may understand.

You are told there is a bomb in your car - would you stay and sit in the car, or would get the out and as far away from it as you could?

I know what I'd do. "

My apologies, I didn't realise he had been informed there was a bomb on board..


Oh wait, neither do you..:hmm:

[WhatsaLizad?]

Have you ever thought if it was a 747 classic

It wasn't.

[spyder105]

They never did give any info on the freq. Not long after the quoted exchange either the company or folks on the ground got in contact with him. All communications after this were normal or even less stressed than JFK normal..

[stepwilk]

My apologies, I didn't realise he had been informed there was a bomb on board...Oh wait, neither do you..

But it is the most logical assumption, right? And after all, that's exactly why the captain wanted to know what was going on. Was there a bomb on board or not?

This shouldn't be so hard to figure out, even for a nonpilot.

[PENKO]

Ahhh...assumptions....now what did we learn about assumptions?

Look, I don't know the details, but imagine what would have happened if this captain assumed there was a bomb on board and evacuated 200 people, whilst the authorities on the ground were maybe just a bit slow in deciding how to deal with an outrageous claim of terrorists in the wheel well. It would have looked mighty silly on both sides, that's for sure!

:E

[BroCode]

I don't think you people realize the regulatory and statutory ramifications of a couple hundred people exiting onto airport grounds without several badges covered with some unknown hieroglyphs, without ever watching a 90 minute safety video and perhaps the worst offense possible to humankind, no safety vest.

Even ignoring the above, there is also the enviromental threat of disturbing the burrow of the spotted winged gopher tortoise no doubt spooning his mate during his once in a decade mating cycle.

Seriously, you people are anarchists as is this brigand Captain http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Epic! Kudos to the Captain!!

[sevenstrokeroll]

IF it were so darn dangerous to let people run around on the tarmac, then there wouldn't be slides to allow these people off the plane.

In the good old days with the DC9 and 727 one would use the onboard stairs. Now, there is no choice but the slides.

All airline pilots are now trained to avoid an UNCOMMANDED evacuation as there could be a problem with someone walking into an engine and coming out as hamburger.

The ground staff should have been read for an evacuation...and oh...if it had been vital to maintain radio silence, the ground staff could have plugged into the interphone system used to control pushback. OR as a last resort, had the pilot open the DV window and shouted to him.

Now, I don't even know what kind of plane is involved as my computer is old and I am going only on the transcript. But come on.

Some of you may remember a term used in security training...I won't even repeat it now. But the BOSS of security on the plane is the pilot in command. There is a ground boss too, but he has to work with the pilot...he might offer ideas but its up to the man on the scene...in the cockpit, what to do.

[stepwilk]

It would have looked mighty silly on both sides, that's for sure!


Better to look silly than...worse.

[PENKO]

I think you missed my obvious point that evacuating 200 pax from a 767 is dangerous in itself. Especially compared to the threat of frozen terrorists in wheel wells.

[S76Heavy]

But he did not have that (or any) information, so naturally he prepared for the worst case scenario to ensure the safety of his pax and crew.

[stepwilk]

evacuating 200 pax from a 767 is dangerous in itself.

As a pilot, I understand that.

[fireflybob]

evacuating 200 pax from a 767 is dangerous in itself.

but not nearly as dangerous as a bomb going off when all 200 pax are on board.

[con-pilot]

I had a rather bizarre situation similar to this happen to me in MIA one day. We had been parking at one of the FBOs at MIA, until one day someone, we really never found out who, decided that we were too close to the street for security reason. This was suddenly discovered after seven or eights years of parking on this FBO ramp with no problems what so ever.

Never the less, Washington decided they knew more about this than we did, so we moved parking locations. New parking spot was now on a remote ramp just west of the main terminal complex and ramp, between the runways, next to the CFR station.

As luck would have it, I was the first AC/PIC/captain (take your pick) on a 727 to go to MIA and use this spot. The ramp was just big enough for a 727-200 to pull in and then do a 180 to face east as so to exit the ramp the same way we had come in.

So I taxi in, do the 180 and park. After parking I leave the aircraft and walk over to a group of police officers and police dogs that are standing next to a long white single story building. At first I thought that these K-9 units were something new for our ground security. Turned out that no they were not, but were there training the dogs for sniffing out explosives. As I am talking to them our regular ground support units show up with the prisoner transportation vehicles.

As the prisoner transfer starts one of the police officers I'm talking to gets a radio call. He answers and just a couple of seconds later he yells at the other K-9 officers that there is a bomb threat on one of the aircraft on the airport. Then I hear the fire trucks starting up at the CFR station on the other side of the ramp. Then the FE comes walking up to me in a hurry and tells me the same thing.

So all of us, the K-9 guys, the FE and I start looking around trying to see where the fire trucks are going and the police officer is on his radio trying to find out just where this aircraft is with the bomb onboard.

Turns out it is us.

Now we didn't have the same ground security as say Air Force One, but it's pretty tight when we are parked somewhere. Also this was our first stop that day from our home base. So the odds of someone planting a bomb on the aircraft is pretty low, next to really, really improbable. But, I wasn't paid for being an odds maker, I was paid to be a pilot, who was in charge of an aircraft loaded with over 100 prisoners in handcuffs and leg chains.

However, before I ordered an aircraft evacuation, I decided to find out just how viable this bomb threat was, where did it come from, who was called, etc. As we were checking this an airport truck drives up to us, you know the type, small white pickup, yellow flashing light on top drives all around airports doing God knows what. The driver gets out of the truck and walks up to us, then says, "I don't know why it took so long for anyone to take any action after I saw this aircraft sitting here on the ramp, but after I called in that there was an airplane with a bomb on board parked on the isolation ramp, I see things did finally start happening." (Or something like that.)

Apparently where we were parked, was the normal parking spot for aircraft with some kind of security threat. This guy saw us parked there, not surrounded by fire and police vehicles and had called in 'asking why there was no one responding to the aircraft with the bomb on it'.

I'll not repeat what I and the police officer told the guy in the airport truck. Needless to say I do believe that in the future he will ask for information before yelling 'Bomb' over the radio.

So while I did not order the aircraft to be evacuated, I was about 30 seconds from doing so. And if you think 100 plus regular passengers would cause problems running around after an evacuation, think what mayhem a 100 plus prisoners would have caused.

[belfrybat]

Nobody was yelling bomb in this case. Quite the contrary, the Captain was PO'd cause they wouldn't tell him what the trouble was.

[PENKO]

Interesting story con-pilot!

[con-pilot]

Interesting story con-pilot!

Thank you, I have hundreds more, it was a very interesting ten years of flying, I can tell you.

[con-pilot]

They did evacuate 100+ from a -200 on the runway at ORD one day when the brakes caught fire

That must have happened after I left.

Brakes caught on fire huh, JK flying it? :p

We evacuated a -100 at NAS Miramar one day, smoke in one of the aft lavs, but no problem with the prisoners then either.

Course the Marine platoon surrounding the aircraft may have had something to do about that. ;)

[con-pilot]

...also not JK.

I was just kidding anyway. I did hear about that incident now that I think about it. Some of those lease 727s were not what one could say were in perfect mechanical shape, to say the least.

Seems we had a lot of problems at ORD, even back when I was still there. Not too long after I left, they lost a section of one the flaps on the approach, that landed in the back yards of one of the biggest opponents of ORD. Now that took some skill. And the guy flying received a lot of kidding from me, including a copy of the initial NTSB report, in colour and framed that I gave him. :p

He loved it, thought it was hilarious.

[con-pilot]

CP, when you evacuated the prisoners, were they in chains, or did the guards have them removed?

Can't really tell you, sorry. Perhaps it is public knowledge now, maybe OK465 would know if it is public knowledge, as he was there after I left.

Is that public knowledge now OK465?

[bubbers44]

It is strange that some people on this planet do not understand that with a bomb threat, you have to treat it as real, and you have no choice but to get the people off the airplane. You can't yourself decide if it is true or not, your training and intellect says why stay on this airplane if it might blow up.

They don't do that in terminal buildings with a threat so why would we. SLF with their opinions don't count because they have no clue. Safety is number 1 and the inconvenience of going down a slide wasn't an option for us if that is the only way.

The captain that gave them 60 seconds did the right thing. The ground superviser was trying to make sure the terminal didn't get blown up if they taxied to the gate. The captain didn't want to blow up his airplane with everybody in it. The captain did the only safe thing, evacuate. He was lucky and had a rear stair, I didn't so used slides.

Maybe if the company jumped on it when I asked for airstairs I could have saved them 10,000 dollars for 4 new slides but they didn't.

[aterpster]

fireflybob:

but not nearly as dangerous as a bomb going off when all 200 pax are on board

Exactly. Evacuations properly carried out and not under the duress of injuries and perhaps fire are not inherently dangerous.

[PENKO]

Bubbers, I tootally agree with your assessment of a bomb threat, but you forget that in this instant...there was NO BOMB threat!

The captain saw law enforcement vehicles around his aircraft and demanded an explanation. So it could have been a bomb, sure. But it could also have been a hijacking which he was unaware of, or an exercise team 'attacking' the wrong aircraft, or maybe the EBOLA virus broke out in the country he had just departed from, or even more unlikely 'SNAKES ON HIS PLANE' or 'TERRORISTS IN HIS WHEEL WELL'.

In the end it was the 'terrorist in wheel well' story. Still feel very sure you would evacuate just because you saw a police car next to your plane and ATC was not very 'pronto' in giving you an explanation?

[Artie Fufkin]

No sane person would try that

I thought we were talking about potential terrorists?

And would it really have taken much more than 60 seconds to pick up the phone, dial the number ATC offered him and get the information he needed?

[MadDog Driver]

PENKO

It was not ONE police car. He said he was "surrounded be emergency vehicles"
And was told to park away from his normal parking spot.

The Capt did exactly the right thing.

Artie....why wait?? He has no idea what anyone is up to..ATC or "terrorists"
and he is the boss of the ship.

I'd have done the same.

[PENKO]

Well, the fact the he did NOT evacuate supports the idea that you need information to act on before you do anything drastic.

[Artie Fufkin]

Artie....why wait??

The point I was making was that he told ATC they had 60 seconds to tell him over the frequency what was going on. They gave him a telephone number to ring and promised to tell him what was going on.

Rather than sitting there heroically drumming his fingers for 60 seconds, he could have telephoned the number and got the information he needed.

In fact, it would have taken less than 60 second to dial the number, so his "solution" took longer. Indeed - why wait??

[West Coast]

Ever played poker? It's called a bluff.

They didn't evac, so perhaps he forced the info he was seeking. Putting myself in his shoes (and I do wear his shoes, in a manner of speaking) after evaluating the risk and likelihood of a frozen terrorist as described and weighed it against the risks associated with an evac, staying put seemed the best option. Arriving at that conclusion requires information, not an intentional effort to keep them In the dark. If getting the full story requires upping the ante, then so be it.

Well done skipper.

[PENKO]

Completely agree with that, West Coast.

[stepwilk]

The point of this whole thread, originally, was that he was unable to get that information.

[singletracker]

So what are the chances that the FBI, FAA, PANYNJ, or anyone else involved in this will change the way they communicate with crews in the future? Now that this AA pilot has set a precedent, I imagine there's a good chance another crew will have to go down this path in the future.

[MadDog Driver]

Well PENKO...if you agree with West Coast, then you and I agree as well:)

[ZQA297/30]

Some aircraft (but by no means all) are no doubt equipped for mobile phone service, but as far as I am aware, a mobile phone, suitable to the area of operations is not yet a required item for flight crew.
Particularly on the Helsinki flight, they would have had to shuffle sim cards and service providers to call the number, and it is by no means certain that mobile phones are a reliable form of emergency communication.
Or have I been out of touch too long?

[Airbubba]

Some aircraft (but by no means all) are no doubt equipped for mobile phone service, but as far as I am aware, a mobile phone, suitable to the area of operations is not yet a required item for flight crew.
Particularly on the Helsinki flight, they would have had to shuffle sim cards and service providers to call the number, and it is by no means certain that mobile phones are a reliable form of emergency communication.
Or have I been out of touch too long?

A crew on a U.S. carrier would almost certainly have immediate access to cell phone communication while taxiing in to JFK from an international flight in my experience.

Sometimes the access is a little too immediate, I've had coworkers texting and checking voicemail before I can stow the spoilers when exiting the runway. :=

The AA captain had a lot on his mind no doubt and it is the case in the U.S. system that the captain is often one of the last to be informed when there is a deviation from the original plan of operation (don't ask me how I know :)).

The tower was probably just trying to be discreet by asking for a phone call. Unlike with the old analog AMPS system, modern digital cellphone transmissions are extremely hard to monitor without cooperation from the service provider from what I can see.

[ILoadMyself]

. . . how long your sleeper agent at "bargain moby fones R us" has been embedded, I suppose.

(For #69) :hmm:

[bubbers44]

No airline pilot is required to have a cell phone and therefore the captain was required to be notified of what was going on. If not told what is going on you have to assume the worst if surrounded by emergency vehicles.

The captain is always required to be told the status of his aircraft. I don't think they will pull this bonehead procedure again. Good job captain.

[bubbers44]

Also for you cell phone call advocates, the captains cell phone is off so would take a minute to even make a call possible. Give me a break. He forced them to tell them what he should have already been told by regulations. He is the PIC and needs to know what is happening with his flight. Everybody seemed to know but him. He had to make a decision with no input. He put it on them. Good for him.

[Dushan]

Well done skipper.


Welcome back, skipper:ok:

[West Coast]

Thanks! Wandering the desert has its advantages as well.

[Dg800]

A crew on a U.S. carrier would almost certainly have immediate access to cell phone communication while taxiing in to JFK from an international flight in my experience.

That doesn't mean that they should be required to use it though, especially considering that an unlisted phone number probably won't be recorded either.

The tower was probably just trying to be discreet by asking for a phone call. Unlike with the old analog AMPS system, modern digital cellphone transmissions are extremely hard to monitor without cooperation from the service provider from what I can see.

Agree with that, although they were probably only worried about the media getting their hands on a recording of the conversation and not about "terrorists hiding in the wheel wells with a gas mask" and possibly with a short-wave scanner too, for good measure. :ugh:
The skipper's first responsibility is however towards his passengers and not towards ATC or Homeland Security or whomever was trying to avoid publicity.

Ciao,

Dg800

[ZQA297/30]

I wonder if there is a case for a discrete scrambled channel for emergency secure comms?

[Dg800]

Don't know about the US of A but scrambling radio transmissions is definitely illegal in many jurisdictions, at least for civilian applications. Big Brother wants to be able to watch you. :=

[gleaf]

How did we ever miss the idea that they surrounded the wrong plane and refused to admit their mistake.:ugh: