An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation

[Hamrah]

I thought it important that you guys see this.

13 July 2001

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sawbridgeworth
Herts
CM21 9PF

Four Forces Aviation
13 Newlands Drive
Poyle 14
Colnbrook
Berkshire
SL3 0DX


For Attention of the Managing Director


Dear Sir,

It has been brought to my attention that, during your MCC course, you make use of a 737 Video in which I act as Captain of a flight to Lisbon.

To my knowledge, you do not have permission of the copyright owner to use this video. Furthermore, you use extracts from the video as examples of “poor CRM”, despite the fact that a number of your students have pointed out that this video is an edited production.

I am angry at the way in which you publicly call my professionalism into question in this manner. I must insist that you cease this practice immediately, and I have instructed my solicitor to seek redress.

Yours truly,


Capt. John Mahon

[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Hamrah ]

[skysoarer]

If confirmed that this is the case, that is certainly a practice I would see as disgraceful from a modern training provider.

I hope the situation can be resolved and those responsible take heed. Thanks for posting it, let us know the response you receive.

SS

[redsnail]

Poor form 4 Forces.

[Blindside]

Completely unethical, the best of luck.

[Mooney]

Not a good idea to breach copy right in the UK. Esp not when Both Video producers and Pilots read PPRUNE! Bad Luck 4 forces! :D

I believe they do MCC on a Kingair sim? Whats the point? You might as well go to Bournemouth or OATS and do it on a Jet sim and get useful LOFT experience in. :rolleyes:

[Tigereye]

Anyone from Four Forces care to comment? http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/nono.gif

[Biz]

Oh dear. Copyright infringement and libellous comments, act together to form a double problem for 4 Forces, with a third and possibily even more serious problem in that it may drive prospective students to other, more ethical training providers. :(

[Manflex55]

There's one good thing about 4 Forces though : 4 months ago they lowered the MCC course fee to below £2,000, forcing other FTOs to do the same. So take advantage of that & go somewhere else (eg Multiflight : same price & no cameras !)

MF

[pjdj777]

I did an MCC with 4 Forces and can confirm that the course does include snippets from two ITVV videos - the GO 737-300 video used as am example of poor CRM and the Leisure767 video as an example of good CRM.

I must admit that the course was excellent, particularly considering it cost less than two grand. However, the criticism made of the 737 operation seemed very unfair considering the fact that the operation is not shown in "real time" - I know the guy at 4 Forces didn't edit the video but the video
has been edited for public consumption - as such all of the criticism made is done so out of context.

[InFinRetirement]

That is absolutely outrageous. You know I will help if you want me to H.

What kind of management is it that allows itself to be bought into disrepute by infringeing copyright.

[Tarmach]

Hamrah,

What did your FO JW say to this? Four forces are bringing his professionalism into question also as a member of the flight crew.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Naughty naughty.
Well they've been caught, go get 'em Hamrah. Do you have documented proof of their actions?
If so make sure you put the boot in hard, but be careful they don't counter claim, citing loss of business (etc.) due to this thread.

Good luck.

[Hamrah]

SSS,

I have two witnesses, one of which has posted above.

For info, JW, my FO on the video, got his command within three months.

H

[Say again s l o w l y]

That should be O.K. Don't give too much away here though. the old phrase " a bird in the hand....." and all that!

keep us all posted. I can hear them squirming when they realise what this will do to their reputation. (What reputation some might say.)

Make the b****rs pay. I would be spitting mad if I was you, and an apology on Pprune might be a good start for them. (not holding my breath though.)

Do you have access to the unedited Video? If it comes to it you may have to prove that there was no "poor CRM." The Video would probably be of prime importance.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am really suprised they made such a crass decision. Make them pay and apologise publicly for goodness sakes.

WWW

[Ennie]

Very stupid for a company such as 4 Forces to be doing something like that. I thought the video was excellent. :mad:

[mad_jock]

what a bunch of chumps.

they won't get any of my dosh.

MJ

[A7E Driver]

4Forces MAY have acted unprofessionally in this instance --- but the certainty is much more obvious on your part HAMRAH for printing a letter such as this in a public forum. Do you know for a fact that 4F doesn't have copyright authority? What if it were the act of an overzealous instructor and not the deliberate policy of the company? You have done a pretty good job of trashing their reputation --- based on not much fact. Things like this are best handled, in the first instance, out of the public eye. I can imagine that the letter would have received appropriate response, apologies, etc., without the theatrics of this forum. And no --- I have absolutely nothing to do with 4F.

[A7E Driver]

Sorry Hamrah, didn't realise you were the offended pilot (thought you were posting someone else's letter). That being said, with all due respect, think a letter to the MD first would have been more appropriate. Regards

[Lightning ace]

I don't know about you. But I bought this video from Transair for £ 30. My first cockpit video. As a budding APTL student, I wanted to know what it was like to fly a 737, gets some idea for a sim ride etc.
After watching the video, I felt I had wasted my money.
I am sure this is nothing to do with the crew, more likely poor editing. Or are all cockpit films like this.
No walkround checks, ops procedures or any detailsed explanation of the aircraft systems.
If anyone can recommmend a cockpit video that fits this bill, please let me know.

As for 4 forces. Well I already have my opinion on them, just from talking to them on the phone. Hence I'm going the PPSC + PAT route. Although still not sure on the MCC course. Modern EFIS like Multiflight or 727/L1011, ageing heavy at Bournemouth. :confused:

[Superpilot]

Lightning ace,

Get hold of the latest video from ITVV, the 'Virgin Atlantic Boeing 747-400'. The pre-flight planning part is thorough and lasts 20 minutes alone! The video also contains in-depth explanations of all systems. Pre-flight briefing, pushback, start-up, taxi, takeoff up to FL070 is all in real time! I guarantee you'll like it:

http://www.itvv.co.uk/7474p.html

As for the subject of this thread: "You've got balls mate!" :eek:

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

[Hamrah]

A7E,

Not sure which of your posts to respond to, I presume you took some time to check YOUR facts , then put in a second post.

My view is this. The most likely students for 4 forces read this forum. I believe 4 Forces offer quite good value on their MCC course. I felt it necessary to make sure that readers of this forum are aware that 4 Forces did not have my permission to use my video in their course, and allowed, or condoned one of their instructors to thrash my reputation. The letter HAS been sent to the MD, and I await a response.

I will settle for an apology , and a contribution to the PPRuNe fund. Nick Grindley of ITVV can fight over the copyright issue.

H

[AirbusPilot]

Hi guys!!!

I Have the video and actually i dont think it's a waste of money!!!!!

This kind of videos we must understand that is for entertaining purposes, its not a course of some kind...
;)

Best regards
Pedro :)

[Patsy 001]

Good point Pedro - I thought it was an excellent video as well! ;)

[Snigs]

My feeling is that everyone will have an opinion of the video(s), but to use it in that way is well beyond decency (stronger words deleted!!)

I have the video, and I've enjoyed watching it immensley (more than once!), my only criticism is that the out-takes weren't tagged on at the end, eh Ham!! :D

[SkyCruiser]

I feel that this sould have been delt with in private, not on an international aviation website. Its always going to end in a messy slaging match.... :mad:

[Megaton]

Skycruiser,

Four Forces should have thought of that before dragging Hamrah's reputation through the mud with future airline FOs. A private apology done on the quiet would have done nothing to restore the reputation of the man who's permission was not sought in the first place. Live by the sword.....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you attack a mans professional reputation in a fee paying public forum then you have committed the very worst of crimes in terms of slander... To breach copyright whilst doing so seems almost careless.

To be honest - and I know this is controvsial - I think 4 Fources a run by idiots ever since I heard Froud Whateverhisname spouting ballcks at the 1999 BALPA employment conference. Half of what he said was factually incorrect and his presentation was so heavily biased to his own commercial aims that I left early to get a good puke in.

These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...

Fry the barstand Mr H.

WWW

[A7E Driver]

GEEZ WWW, I hope the next time you make a minor transgression like turning to a wrong heading, taking a wrong taxi-way,skipping an item on a check-list, etc., that it doesn't get reported on .PPRUNE for the whole world to know about. Get a life.

[Polar_stereographic]

I just cancelled my holiday to enable me to stay near my PC to watch this one unfold.

WWW, where you under the influence when you put this together?

No, my only connection with 4 forces is someone who called them up only to not have my call returned as promised.

PS

[Tigereye]

Go get 'em...WWW http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/fight.gif

[A7E Driver]

WWW: "These days people like .... myself and others are on hand to speak the truth..."

Thanks. I sleep better at night knowing that.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Although it was a schoolboy error not to extend the common courtesy of contacting the crew concerned or, indeed, the video company regarding issues of copyright, I think some people are being a tad harsh on the course that 4 Forces provides.

Whilst not vindicating them for using the video involving Hamrah, it is of little consolation to know that it formed a minute part of a discussion concerning CRM. Indeed, there were several of us on the course that saw no problems with the way the flight was handled and commented as such.

As for the rest of the course, I think it is largely irrelevant on what type of simulator you train on - the meat of the course is designed to teach you the basics of how to work properly in a crew environment not how to learn to fly a big jet. To that end I thought that the tuition at 4F was fine...in fact they were extremely flexible and professional throughout the sim phase.

In summary, I sympathise with Hamrah's issue although I'm not sure it should be aired on this forum. As for WWW, I generally agree with most of your posts on PPRuNe, but your vitriolic post on this issue when you have very limited knowledge of the course is somewhat naiive.

[Bleater]

Similar to the above I did the 4 Forces MCC in November and saw the video. Do not recall that there was any criticism of the crew or that the CRM aspects of it were brought into question. It was one of various videos we saw and at least when i was there did not attract much comment at all.
Breach of copyright maybe but from my experience of various avaition training outfits such breaches would be commonplace if you look at the video library!! Indeed the same can be said for much of the written course material as well as the same material is passed around the world. This video was produced for screening on TV, ie public consumption so 4 forces could be excused for using it for training purposes in my view.
Second issue is that if they have been bagging Hamrah and he has complained then they owe him an apology.
As for 4 forces i went there because they were the cheapest and found it a good course with very experienced staff and did learn a bit from it. Did not think the type of sim on this course was a big issue, the King air was as good as anything i guess. My only critism was that the theory where the video was shown did drag on somewhat, may have been asleep during discussion on it !!!

[Brit Abroad]

Have to agree with Skycruiser and Static Discharge on this one.

Hamrah, your reaction is overkill to say the least. You could at least have given them the opportunity to reply before using this public forum for your own personal means.


With your decision to write this 'open letter', let's just hope you are 100 % sure they have copyright permission. - Either that or you are sure that you and Danny have good solicitors......

What were you expecting when putting this on the forum ? - That everyone was going to agree with you ?! Oh well, that's one of the risks of doing it I suppose - It sometimes backfires.

I agree that showing the video without (allegedly) having copyright permission is wrong - I just don't agree with your methods. As far as them commenting on the vid for their CRM class, then I can understand your reaction, but I don't see the problem - As the first-hand witnesses state, it was just to open the debate on CRM.
Or are you going to attack their free-speech ?


WWW

I am shocked.

I have read many of your posts over the years and admire your dedication and hard work.

However, your last post is beyond belief :(

1) All your comments about 4 forces not having copyright are based (like for eveyone) on 2nd hand information that you acquired a couple of days ago.

As Static Discharge said, are you 100 % sure that 4 forces don't have copyright permission ?

2) To be honest - and I know this is controvsial - I think 4 Fources a run by idiots ever since I heard Froud Whateverhisname spouting ballcks at the 1999 BALPA employment conference. Half of what he said was factually incorrect and his presentation was so heavily biased to his own commercial aims that I left early to get a good puke in.



- Funny that, I remember reading your post about that conference (the one where they asked you to stand up) and I seem to remember you stating (along with many other PPRuNers), that 4 forces gave a good speech....

Oh well, I guess it's a case of you now knowing what side your bread is buttered ...... :rolleyes:

3) These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...


Hallelujah - We all wait with baited breath oh chosen one :rolleyes:


Brit

[presbycusis]

WWW

These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...


I have no intention of joining in the debate about copyright etc., but come on WWW. I have, politely I hope, pointed out a few times in this forum the error in your ways of claiming statements to be true when in fact your sources of information have been incorrect. I don't doubt that you usually think you are stating truthful fact, but most people here realise that what we hear around the bazaars is still just rumour and it is a little arrogant for someone to claim that they are hear to always speak the truth!

Furthermore, I was a little disappointed to read your vitriolic outburst ref four forces in this thread. A sometimes purveyor of duff information you maybe but I always thought you had more maturity and integrity than your post would indicate.

Were you perhaps on the outside of a large helping of fun juice when you wrote it? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[gazelle507]

I would like to take the opportunity to add to this thread and speak about 4 Forces with qualification. What I am about to say is not a biased view but my opinion and based on fact.
There has been an abundance of attacks on PPRUNE against 4 Forces, a small and lets keep this in perspective, very small amount have had some degree of truth, but then if you think about it, no school is perfect. After all there is the human element and we will all push the parameters and all hope we can get away with it.
I will say now, hand on heart that 4 Forces do not deserve the (I am looking for a word to accurately describe what I am thinking) utter contempt of this feeling towards them.
What Frode and his team are doing and continuously improving is a credit to the training industry. Yes they have made mistakes, but in the words of the old saying, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", is there anyone out there who could?
They have some of the best Instructors in the industry there, and believe me their dedication is beyond reproach.
They have again some of the best facilities.
They are improving, and gaining ground on their books, not before time, but still a big improvement.
Lets all remember as well people, they aren't bad when it comes to prices and we are all looking for a few advantages there, aren't we.
I am going to make a request to you all. Why don't we all let Frode and the team at 4 Forces get on with the important issue of training Pilots. A difficult enough task, without all of this to concern themselves about. Don't forget, when you attack a school, especially in this manner, it's the individuals who you hurt and they don't deserve it.
Of course, if you have genuine grievance then act upon it, in the correct manner. If however, as most of this is "bringing out your dirty washing" let it rest.
Things may now further improve with the departure of a certain team who did their best to hold 4 Forces back.

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: gazelle507 ]

[InFinRetirement]

Has any of the later contributors bothered to re-read Hamrah's letter? They should. It is quite simple actually, stating what happened, no more no less.

Now, some pompous self righteous know it all's come in with posts - holding their hands up in horror and try to denegrate a genuine letter from a much respected Captain, never mind that he is a PPRuNe Captain, that speaks of copyright and bringing his own professionalism into disrepute. It's alright if that company does that is it? Well not in my book it isn't, and the sooner people get off their own mysterious bandwagons the better.

If you don't support Hamrah, he won't mind but if you want to belittle him, I mind! I know the man, and I was in the business far too long to know that there are establishments in every facet of the industry who quite simply exploit other parts of it - that includes people. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.

My advice is to start recognising the nitty gritty, and stop criticising the reason for it.

[Hamrah]

OK,

I'll clarify this one more time.
1) 4 Forces do NOT have permission of the producer of this video to use it in this manner (yes, I am 100% sure)

2) The Video in question was used to demonstrate a percieved example of "poor CRM". A different video from the same production company was used to show an example of "good" CRM.

3)My letter to 4 Forces was posted here to reach the audience most likely to have partaken of MCC courses with 4 Forces, to make them aware that I do not appreciate my professionalism being brought into question in this manner

4) If 4 Forces would care to apologise, and make a contribution to the PPRuNe fund, I will happily walk away from it all. The copyright owners of the video might have other ideas

H

[ANZAC]

How magnanimous are those that believe this matter is of little consequence and that Hamrah has overreacted . This begs the question would YOU be so magnanimous if it was YOUR reputation being slurred ? As this is a Wannabe forum I can only assume that these persons MUST be young and naive. :rolleyes: .

For any wannabe starting out in this industry, a little piece of advice. As a professional pilot your reputation is EVERYTHING ! You are what your peers believe you to be !! (rightly or wrongly !) If you allow someone, indeed anyone, to question or undermine your reputation then you must deal with it immediately and harshly. If you remain quiet it can, and will, be seen as some form of consent.

Hamrah, IMHO, you are being magnanimous in seeking ONLY a public apology. I am only astounded that one hasn't been forthcoming already. :eek:

In cases like this; use a cricket bat to swat a mosquito.

Good Luck Hamrah.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hamrah

I stumbled across this thread by accident, but would like to offer you my support in your endeavours.

Some years ago in my consulting business, a client publicy defamed my business partner.

We took similar action to yours and received a full retraction and apology.

It is not a trivial matter when a professional reputation is called into question and it requires a serious response.

Best of luck

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My dislike of Frode stems 90% from his 1999 BALPA speech. He calmly stood there and told the whole audience - even when cross questioned - that you simply would not get an interview with any airline unless you had an MCC. This was, and remains, a lie. Coming from a man adrently selling MCC courses this was a unpalatable. The bulk of his time was devoted to promoting his own commercial organisation and waxing lyrical about his somewhat limited new KingAir sim.

I have noted with some interest - as have others in the aviation training industry - the staff he has recruited to his company. I am glad you found them experienced and capable instructors.

This latest action of so crassly, ridicuously and cowboyishly attacking a highly respected pilots professional conduct in a *classroom* no less (I can bearly believe it still) only served to heighten my towering low regard for all things 4 Fources.

Perhaps you feel it was pompous of me to state that these days PPRuNe is around to speak the truth.

I make no apology at all for that sentiment. Perhaps you do not remember what things were like back in say 1996/7? You had some glossy brochures to read, an out of touch old chap down at the flying club and perhaps the Clive Hughes book to read about how to become an airline pilot. You really were a babe in the wood and many people got shafted as a result. Things like NVQ tax relief were withdrawn and thousands didn't even know it was going to happen and missed registration... People heard people like Frode at seminars and believed every word - they had to.

As least now you get a counterpoint here and if thats incorrect someone soon jumps in to say so - if its me or anyone else talking rubbish.

I'm glad lots of you had a good training experience at 4 Fources - I know plenty of people who have trained there and emailed me about the experience.

That fact I understand will breed loyalty to the organisation - it always does - but that does not stop me thinking the 1999 speech and abusing Hamrah were both crass abominations indicating something negative about the organisation in question.

Cheers,

WWW

[Blindside]

Hamrahs decision to respond with a public letter does at least allow 4 Forces the opportunity to defend/explain their actions/position.

4 Forces reported negative portrayal of Hamrah in a classroom environment did not allow him that courtesy.

The lack of a response from 4 Forces is puzzling. To allow this thread to continue without a response would suggest that either they have no defence, or that they do not stay abreast of their reputation on PPrune.

As I’d imagine that a large proportion of its potential clients would read Pprune, neither of these stances would suggest a high level of business acumen.

regards

[Lord_Archer]

Wee, weasley and Welsh? There's lovely for you :rolleyes:

[Polar_stereographic]

Lord Archer,

An imposter, not the real one I hope.

Cracking name mind you.

PS

[Lord_Archer]

Polar. One finds oneself with too much time on one's hands. Any port in a storm don't you know. In any event, I am going to do my ATPL exams over the next 2 years or so and shall then become the world's leading test pilot. I look forward to much interesting intercourse with you chaps.

[presbycusis]

Obviously a raw nerve there WWW. Hope it doesn't spiral dive into a slanging match - I'm sure it won't. Anyway, no-one from Four Forces has seen fit to post a reply, so I guess we'll all just sit back and watch results. :) :)

[Oleo]

WWW - let me touch the hem of your garment next time you are passing ;)

I did Four Forces MCC course and saw said video, but hardly any comment was passed upon it by the instructor of the ground school. Mind you the "instructor" was so appalling the whole class asked for a portion of their money back. Frode squirmed out of that and wrote us letters offering us some "retraining" which, surprisingly, never materialised. Very much got the immpression that money rules at FF.

[MOR]

One hesitates to ask this question, as it is undoubtedly terribly bad form, but can someone who has seen the video confirm that Hamrahs CRM is indeed crap (or not).

The public has right to know... ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You can carry my bags as well if you like ;) :)

Yes Lord Archer I am indeed blessed.

WWW

[Tinstaafl]

I'm with WWW. I too saw Frode's thinly veiled advertisement for 4 Forces' MCC course.

He used a combination of speculation & very questionable assumptions to pressure those listening into doing the MCC at his company.

[Hamrah]

MOR,

If you want to come and fly with me, you can decide yourself.

But if someone wants to base an opinion on an edited video, I might have an objection.

And if someone wants to make money on it, I have very serious objection.

Cheers

H

[aztruck]

I can confirm that the video featuring john mahon has been used repeatedly and with some glee,as an example of "shoddy " crm. by certain individuals at 4 Forces.
Most of our course discussed the comments in private and found them distasteful and somewhat eccentric. I have no idea of any personal agendas at work in the background, but judging by the glee with which the comments were made in the classroom, it would not surprise me if some were evident.
Lest you imagine that my course was a solitary example, it is not. This could therefore have been going on for several months, with hundreds of Professional Pilots going away with a potentially negative impression of a fellow pilot.
No course is perfect, no system is perfect, and there were many positive aspects to the 4 forces course and they did a very good job
in the Sim.
All the more reason to cease the sniping.
Very silly.

[MOR]

Calm down H, it was a gentle wind-up. I agree using edited footage to make a point is bogus. I'm sure everybody is guilty of bad CRM from time to time, even you! Oh OK then maybe not you... ;) BTW can I have a job please... :)

[VFE]

Hamrah,

For those of us who don't really know you personally, would you be so kind as to let us know what response you get from 4F - if any?

I too wish you the best in getting an apology from them (very gentlemanly to only ask that of them!). Disgracefull that they should use that bloody good video in a negative way against your professional reputation.

Go for it H,

VFE.

[Hamrah]

Aztruck,

Thanks for that input. That was the basis of my letter, and my post on this forum.

H

[expedite_climb]

As I remember it copyright is not an issue when the document in issue is being used for education purposes. This stems from otherwise copyright requests from schools would be huge, but is relevant in this case.

[Hamrah]

I think the owner and producer of the video in question would take a view based on the copyright notice on the video itself.

H

[HomerSimpson]

I still think that Hamrah was right in putting the letter on PPRuNe to inform people of the situation in hand.

As usual there will be a few people with differing opinions as to the correct way of going about it. But if Hamrah did keep it out of the public eye and just deal direct with 4 Forces then maybe the situation might have been resolved between them. However, Hamrah posted this because he wanted to let people know that 4 Forces were using a video without permission and highlighting bad CRM.

This therefore shows Hamrah in a bad light, and I doubt very much that 4 Forces would have sent a letter out to all those who have attended their MCC course and made them aware that they should have not slated him in thier course. Therefore I 100% agree with Hamrah in the way he went about this. Until 4 Forces apologise publicly the matter should not close.

Best of luck Hamrah

Homer

[gazelle507]

Have you contacted Frode about this?.

[Hamrah]

The letter was sent last week. Still waiting for reply,

[QUERY]

Sorry to spoil fun and I do sympathise with JM as I was the victim of something similar- nothing to do with aviation- when I was working for a company under contract.
BTW I have no connection with Fourforces or any other Foreskins. The point is that when you work, supply or, even, shop or eat anywhere, you are often accepting that you have agreed to them filming you and retaining 'intellectual property rights' to your image or behaviour.
The point is, therefore:
How/when were you filmed?
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?

This story is a BIG warning. Little do most realise that you may be training or working, innocently and with responsibilty (you believe) only to your instructor or boss, but you may then be featured in a video as an example of an incompetent student,instructor, engineer, pilot etc.

The other problem I discovered is that, unless you are a big pop-star, professional, politician or public figure, it is difficult to identify and quantify any damage.

[Sagey]

How/when were you filmed?
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?

It is simply not true that this company have a right to use the footage. Any intellectualy property rights or waiver is the property of Hamrah or the company that commissioned the filming. This MCC company has no right to show the footage (for a commercial venture) without first contacting the owners (ie Hamrah or the filming company).

Sagey

[jumpseater]

Sagey I belive Query is correct, once you have agreed to be filmed/photographed recorded and signed a contract to that effect then there is little redress as I understand it. Disregarding the copyright issue for a moment, if the editing of the film is such that 'poor' performance of an individual may be perceived then that should be adressed through the producer/s. However having already signed something which would probably preclude any editorial influence, H may be in a no win situation there. As for using the film in a compare and contrast exercise, again the editing may be an issue as well as the actual performance of the individuals concerned.

On the copyright issue there may well be a case to answer, it will depend on how much money people want to spend to enforce this, and what return it will bring them both in 'good will' and financial terms. There will still not be any protection from someone saying go and buy/borrow/look at video's A and B, on video A you can see X whereas on video B you can see Y which is much better because blah blah blah... This takes us back to the beginning to be sure of what you are signing up for, and the potential downside as well. And I know it's easy to be wise after the event!

PS
I have no connection with any of the companies or individuals in this thread.

[Hamrah]

I think I can answer both of these points. I agreed to participate in a "From the flightdeck" video in co-operation with ITVV, a commercial company who produce these videos for entertainment (anyone who has seen the outtakes, know the entertainment value) The video was edited, with my permission obviously, by ITVV and then sold. My participation was voluntary.

The subsequesnt use of this video for training and commercial purposes by 4F , I believe is in breach of the copyright published on the video. Furthermore, to use the content of the video out of context is, I believe, both unprofessional and possibly defamatory.

Hence my complaint.

[QUERY]

This video has obviously provided plenty of 'entertainment', but not in the way you had assumed.
There may a breach of conditions/copyright and I am not defending what has been done but you say you gave some sort of permission, so wouldn't compromise be better and less risky than litigation?

[jumpseater]

Hamrah, good luck with it, I understand why you're taking the action you are, and hope you get a satisfactory solution.
Rgds JS

[Sagey]

Whatever the legal loop holes etc, and I am certainly not a lawyer, you do seem to have a firm ground of complaint and all we can do is wish you luck and hope that the correct outcome and subsequent apology is swift and hassle free.

Best of luck mate.

Sagey

[Final 3 Greens]

Query

I think that you have missed the point here.

Hamrah is not complaining about ITTV's use of the video, but rather a third party's.

As it would appear from Hamrah's comments that the third party has not licensed this material, then its use would appear certainly to be breach of copyright and there is also a question of potential defamation to be answereds by Four Forces.

The point about educational use is likely to prove a red herring in this context; universities and others use this argument in the context of general copyright, but the ITTV video apparently has a specific copyright notice restricting it's use.

John Fletcher Moulton commented on ethical behaviour that "It is the domain of obedience to the unenforceable"

In this instance the matter would appear to be enforceable and if Hamrah believes that there is an absence of ethics then I support his action in doing something about it.

I am not a professional pilot, but I am a professional and believe that we must support each other in maintaining correct standards of behaviour in commercial life.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

As the video in question has been edited,I cannot see how 4forces can claim it`s a bad example of CRM.We don`t know what bits have been edited out.Therefore I think it is a bad call on their part.
Hamrah I wish you luck. ;)

[mutt]

Lets just forget about the Hamrah part of this…….

The video explicitly shows Capt JM who was the chief pilot of GO, for anyone to infer that this gentleman was not practicing good CRM is damaging to Capt JM’s reputation and may have had a direct impact on his future job prospects and his present reputation!

Is this considered SLANDER?


Mutt

[VTOL]

Either way, it is a defamation of Hamrah's professionism and he is quite justified in asking for an apology. I think that 4F are getting off lightly and wonder if it was one of us would we be so gracious about it?

Hamrah, I wish you the best of luck. Let us know if or when you have some news.

VTOL

[schuler_tuned]

hamrah, 1st post to your last reply is 11 days!, with no indication of any apology or indication that they have ceased using the said video. you are indeed a patient and benevolent fellow. i believe that the use of the video was not malicious, as from your magnanimous replies you believe also, but worringly shows a quite unbelievable capacity for naivety, in an industry where mistakes can be far reaching, and at the worst iredeemable. your posting was both just, and worthy.
4 forces need to do something, and quickly, there are lots of potential customers on this site!
hamrah, even edited it seems you still look good!,4 forces unedited.......?
i,m sure you'll get the result you deserve!

[Mister Geezer]

I heard that there is a fairly large aviation organisation (being very very vague for obvious reasons!) that is currently trying to take legal action against 4 Forces.

Nuff said

Hamrah, looks as if you and ITVV are not the only ones!

MG

[pjdj777]

So, have you heard anything yet Hamrah?

I must say I have to agree with Aztruck's comments about the amount of glee that was apparent in saying "and that's their Chief Pilot". Perhaps there is a hidden agenda?

[VHS]

Sorry for the late posting here – holidays etc.

I can confirm that Four Forces Aviation DO NOT have our permission to show any ITVV videos. Our copyright is very clear at the beginning of each video.

I have today sent a fax to the MD at Four Forces asking for his comments on this serious situation – I will keep you posted.

I take a very serious view on this matter and will back Hamrah all the way. If Four Forces make a public apology to Hamrah then I am happy – if not we will take whatever action is necessary.

Regards

VHS

aka Nick Grindley
Managing Director
Intelligent Television and Video Limited

[JB007]

Wahhaaayy..

Let battle commence..!!!! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/9mm.gif

Best of luck boys... http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/shootout.gif

[A7E Driver]

You guys are sure hard on a tiny company that has provided great service at low cost to a very large number of wannabees. (I am not associated in any way with 4F.) As someone said earlier, I would like to visit a flight school now that in some way or other isn't violating copyrights, etc.

As for bruising a pilot's ego ---- don't you think we are judged much more critically by 100's of people every time a "firm" landing is made.

Finally, as for someone's career being damaged by some lose comments at an MCC course --- start drinking decaf. I can think of no other profession where one's career is as protected as that of a pilot. You get your certificate and a seniority number --- and then you can only be threatened by 3 things: 1) economic crash 2) medical act of God, 3) GROSS misconduct. I find it hard to believe that anyone's career/reputation could be damaged by this incident. Indeed, the comments on this thread show (rightly so) almost universal support of the crew involved --- and 4F are suffering from a self-inflicted wound. I think we should lighten up a bit and not take ourselves so seriously.

[Boss Raptor]

'Hard' !?

As a professional organisation 4 Forces should be well aware of the UK legislation and position on copyright and the using of media for commercial use and public viewing...not the 'private viewing' licence with which no doubt the video is sold (noted on the packaging and lead in to the video probably)...

...And as for the question of professional conduct with regard to the misrepresentation of a well known and respected member of the uk aviation community then this shows a lack of intelligence and personal respect!

[Send Clowns]

Static

Size of company is irrelevant. An individual can be taken to court over copyright or defamation matters.

You are also completely wrong, I believe, about the protection of a pilot's career. I can think of no other career, where career progression is more dependent upon image. If a pilot is seen to be unprofessional, he will not get the jobs he wants. Airlines cannot be criticised for this, as they live or die by image. In an industry delivering a service that is as widely feared as flying, and where accidents have such an impact that they are publicised so widely the image of safety and professionalism must be maintained at all cost. Hence the bans on drinking in uniform, for example.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And I quote Static Discharge:


"great service at low cost to a very large number of wannabees"

Great service - I've got a load of emails from ex-students.

Low Cost - same as several other UK FTO's more expensive than others.

Very large number of Wannabes - hmm founded in 1999 they are one of the newest and still smallest FTO's.

WWW

[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[Raw Data]

As Four Forces have their own sim (sort of), it should be very easy for them to combine a camcorder with some suitably hammy students and generate their own examples of "bad CRM".

Using a commercial tape for this is more to do with them wanting to take a prod at professional pilots, than actually teach their students anything. It should be obvious
to all that a filmed flight is a highly contrived situation and doesn't accurately reflect normal airline ops.

Unfortunately, copyright abuse is rampant in most flying schools (and also many airline training departments as well). This is partly to do with a distinct lack of good, reasonably priced programmes, and partly due to the desire to save money.

Anyway, Four Forces have overstepped the mark, and should be held to account. Go get 'em Ham!

[skysoarer]

Hopefully this will be seen as a 'landmark' case and, if successfully sorted out, other FTO's should take note.

I agree with the hammy ex-student examples through, of course used with permission from the victims...

SS

[Mach.1]

John,Have you had a reply from 4F yet, or are they still hideing waiting for the situation to GO AWAY.
Hope all is well at BW.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Raw Data]

Had a slightly longer think about this during a nanosecond of mental clarity I experienced yesterday. Must've been the coffee...

Anyway, it occurs to me that every time you do so much as copy an Aerad (or whatever they are called this week), you break copyright as surely as if you did what 4F have done- unless of course you have a copying licence from the publisher. I'm sure H has copied more than a few plates in his time, I certainly have!! To go down the copyright route can therefore be a little cynical.

That leaves the issue of personal reputation, and that is the real nub of the whole issue. I'm not sure that there is enough here for legal action, but I don't have all the details.

Of course, if the only way to stop the personal affront is to use the copyright laws, fair enough!! ;)

Right, back in my box now...

[Sick Squid]

I think you'll find that a reasonable amount of photocopies for personal study are acceptable, RD. Usually defined as excerpts from a longer work. In a similar manner, the ITVV videos will be copyright-licenced to the over-the-counter purchaser for personal use at home, any further use up for negotiation with the copyright holder.

This is a flagrant breach of copyright by the company involved, notwithstanding any inferences they may make against Hamrah. So he's definitely on solid ground.

(Had a little legal spat over copyright a few years back.... story available over a beer at the next Gatbash!)

£6

[Sagey]

Sick Squid you are correct about photocopies.

As long as on the top it clearly states who the copyright belongs to, and the words ONLY FOR USE FOR ACADEMIC PURPOSES.

It is what Universities been doing for years<g>

As for the video, well disgraceful (not the video lol, the blatant misusage).

Sagey

[Raw Data]

Sorry, should have been more specific: a limited amount of copying is OK for personal study or review purposes, however copying something that will be used as part of your work (for example copying a plate for use in a sim detail) is not. Trust me, I too have extensively studied copyright (being a musician, you have to).

[QUERY]

In view of the huge interest in this video, which seems to be both educational and amusing, does anyone know where you can buy/hire it?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Sagey, mate. This was not blatant misusage as you put it. I take it you have not done the course.

I sincerely hope that this matter can be put to bed ASAP as it's not doing anyone any favours. Perhaps 4F could take this on the chin and put it down to experience....I don't know. If Hamrah wants a public apology (or indeed a private one that can be made public) then so much the better.

I have done only one MCC course (thank God) and 4F was it. I cannot comment on other courses and their content or methodology so I would not have the temerity to criticize without first hand knowledge.

To bring copyright issues into this may be one way of forcing an acknowledgement from the institute concerned, but this really isn't the real issue, is it? Professionalism and the perception of such is the issue and this has been brought onto a personal level by this very post.

I was not aware that this was an edited version of events, nevertheless all my course did not pass any comment regarding the CRM aspects associated with the clip. Indeed, it was a pleasant relief from the other "discussions" to see a video of some flying!!

It would be very easy to penalise 4F on copyright issue - but then again, show me an academic or training organisation that hasn't used a video for training benefit without seeking copyright authorisation. We've all seen it and we've all been there whether it be something taped off the Beeb or a commercial tape.

John, you are quite justified in asking 4F for an apology for bringing your CRM skills into question. However, I do not agree with some of the threads here that lambast the organisation concerned with little or no knowledge, except from this thread alone or other peoples' perception of the thread. This, in my opinion, is an issue between yourself and the organisation concerned.

Nevertheless, I hope that you get the apology that you are looking for and I also hope that the needless bashing of 4F ceases from those that have no clue.

[Hamrah]

TSP,

My personal view of 4 Forces is this.

They publicly thrash my reputation by illegal use of a video.

I want them to stop, and publicly apologise.

Anything else that has been posted on this thread, or others in the past, no more than represents the views of the individuals concerned.

I have been told today that a reply is "in the post".

H

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

John, I hope the reply includes the apology you are seeking.

All the best mate.

TSP

[QUERY]

Stop teasing- tell me where I can get this video?

[VHS]

Q

Hi, you can get the video from www.itvv.co.uk (http://www.itvv.co.uk) ;)

Regards

VHS

[Tinstaafl]

The outtakes are much better! :D

T

-----------
One day I too will know what an 'EADI' is, just like Hamrah

[Hamrah]

Gentlemen,

I have now had a reply from 4 forces.

As this matter may now become subject to legal action , I will close this thread.

Thank you for your support.

H