Air Uganda, crew forgot to set flaps?

[750XL]

Air Uganda MD-87 Takeoff from Nairobi, Kenya - Window View - YouTube

:sad:

[hetfield]

Ooooops....

[mach2.6]

Great idea! Really cuts drag between brake release and V1, resulting in a shorter takeoff roll by, ohhh, say....35 feet. :eek:

[FullWings]

They'd obviously read on PPRuNe about the short-field technique (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here by calling it a technique) of deploying the flaps during the takeoff roll.

Move on, nothing to see... :rolleyes:

[Machinbird]

Reminds me of the time I was a SLF on a Navy C-9 at NQX and they made a no flap takeoff! :eek:

I don't know to this day whether or not that was an allowed configuration, but somehow, I doubt it was. At least they handled it well, but we were really moving at liftoff.:confused:

[hetfield]

of deploying the flaps during the takeoff roll.


Wasn't it AF 707 many moons ago who did that?

[Easy Street]

Perhaps the SLF should have told the cabin staff about it :E

[hetfield]

The SLF just care about cheap tix.

But maybe the T/O config warning was in a working state opposite to Spanair accident, same reason.

[Lonewolf_50]

Based on that video clip, it was 15 seconds from beginning of forward movement to beginning of flaps beginning to lower.

I seem to recall a 727, Delta, in DFW, (Corrected to 1988!) that didn't lower flaps on takeoff ... flight ended in tears. :{

Delta 1141. One would hope that the lesson learned from that crash might be standard training fodder.

[Skipness One Echo]

Always surprises me that I have photos of two seperate US Airways B767-200s heading across the pond departing with no flaps !
Had I been on board I suspect I would have been bricking it!

[tchaikovsky]

What's that light spot thingy on the ground that moves from the piano keys towards the trailing edge between 12-17 seconds on the film??

[hetfield]

Don't know 767,

but on A300 taking off with flaps was very seldom, mostly just slats.

[brakedwell]

Nairobi - November 1974 - Lufthansa 747 crashed after take-off because crew failed to set LE flaps.

[Airbubba]

Always surprises me that I have photos of two seperate US Airways B767-200s heading across the pond departing with no flaps !
Had I been on board I suspect I would have been bricking it!

I realize that you may possibly not be a pilot but flaps 1 is a legal takeoff setting in the 767. The flaps stay up but the slats are extended to the takeoff position.

Here's an example on a takeoff out of PHL:

US Airways Boeing 767-200 Takeoff From PHL - YouTube

[PJ2]

Likely flaps/slats were set when the takeoff configuration warning horn probably sounded as the thrust levers were set for TO thrust.

Re, ". . . nothing to see", that's exactly the outcome the system was designed for so there's a great deal to see. The system worked as designed and likely prevented another Spanair.

[orion1210]

What are the advantages of a flapless or reduced flap takeoff and when would you elect to carry one out?

Same for landing config?

[Airbubba]

Likely flaps/slats were set when the takeoff configuration warning horn probably sounded as the thrust levers were set for TO thrust.

That is probably how it has been handled many times in the 'old days' here in the U.S. Often the takeoff checklist itself was completed on the roll by 80 knots.

However in these enlightened times with FOQA, FDM, ASAP and all the rest you are probably better off to do a low speed reject, find out for sure why the horn went off, put it in the logbook or not depending on the carrier and try it again after being sure you don't need a sign off. And do a mea culpa with all crewmembers on ASAP and NASA reports to CYA.

Moving the flap lever on the takeoff roll on a modern plane causes all heck to break loose with the warnings as these guys at Charlie West found out:

Pilots Engaged in Small Talk Before Jet Botched Takeoff - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304198004575171883273889998.html)

The Captain moved the flap lever from flaps 8 to flaps 20 on the takeoff roll and botched a reject over V1, but was saved by the crunchy EMAS at the end of the mountaintop runway.

[parabellum]

We used to do flapless in the Middle East on the BN2 Islander as it gave a higher speed at rotation and we were slightly better off if we lost an engine. Nothing illegal about a flapless takeoff if it can be done safely, within the AFM and SOPs.

[Lonewolf_50]

OK:
Actually the lesson learned from the DFW 727 was ...never rotate beyond normal takeoff attitude with 6000' of runway remaining. They were within 8 or so knots of 'flying', even no flap. (additional lesson was don't pull the takeoff warning CB to cross the 'zulu' bridge)
PJ
Likely flaps/slats were set when the takeoff configuration warning horn probably sounded as the thrust levers were set for TO thrust.
Re, ". . . nothing to see", that's exactly the outcome the system was designed for so there's a great deal to see.
Thank you both. :ok:

[screwballburling]

This is obvious to most of us.

Here are just 5, of the many things that are vitally important, in attempting to get airborne.

F. Flaps.

A. Air-brakes

R. Correct Runway.

T. Trims set.

S. Speeds Bugged.

Regardless what is written on your company checklist, it only takes 30 seconds of farting around, to do this extra vital check. There are usually,no second chances. That extra 30 seconds of FARTS could save the day.

If we fly long enough and often enough, something vital will get missed during the DVA's

My 2 cents worth.

[BobnSpike]

orion1210 (http://www.pprune.org/members/231383-orion1210)
What are the advantages of a flapless or reduced flap takeoff and when would you elect to carry one out?

Same for landing config?

More flaps reduce takeoff distance at the expense of reduced initial climb performance. Less flaps improve initial climb performance at the expense of increased takeoff distance.

The same is true regarding flap setting for landing. More flap = less runway required but less climb; less flap = better missed approach/rejected landing climb but more runway required. Usually this is less of an issue, but once in a while a reduced flap setting is required due to obstacles in the missed approach path.

The flap setting used is based on whether runway length or climb performance is the most limiting factor.

[con-pilot]

Actually the lesson learned from the DFW 727 was...


When I saw the post accident photos there was something that bother me. So a few years later when I attended the NTSB aircraft accident school I brought up my inquiry.

When viewing the left front side of the fuselage, the front left main cabin door was open. That in itself would not be that remarkable, except that the way the fuselage was laying on the ground, the bottom of the door was buried in the dirt. There was no way for that door to be in that position unless it was opened before the aircraft came to a complete stop.

The Flight Attendant sitting in the jump seat next to the door swore that she did not open the door until the aircraft came to a complete stop. Then there seemed to be some confusing on just who actually opened the door.

After some reviewing all the information we had access to, we decided that the FA sitting next to door had to have opened that door before the aircraft came to a stop, but that she just didn't remember it.

I went to 727 type school shortly after that accident, you can figure out the one thing that was really drilled into us.

But you are quite correct OK, if they would have left it on the ground until they ran out of runway, then rotated, it would have flown. Same type deal with the AA DC-10 accident at ORD, if they would have just held the attitude they had, it would have flown.

But, that's all 20/20 hindsight, easy to say or write when you're sitting at a desk.

[Flingwing47]

the spot is the retractable wing landings lights moving from stowed (light facing down) to extended position.

[SMOC]

Nairobi - November 1974 - Lufthansa 747 crashed after take-off because crew failed to set LE flaps.

They set the flap correctly however they managed to isolate the leading edge bleed air completely therefore preventing the leading edge from extending. At the time there was no indication of LE position to let the crew know.

[broadreach]

Orion and BobnSpike,
If I may, another reason is to preserve the undercarriage and the airframe. On a long runway the aircraft will probably eventually get airborne but at a much higher speed. Unless the runway is glass-smooth every little surface irregularity will be very forcefully transmitted to the hull.
On the 767 mentioned earlier there must be a weight/lift/temp etc curve that allows the flapless takeoff procedure, i.e. with certain weights and on certain runways it's allowed.
My only experience of such a takeoff was years ago on a Vasp 737-200, GIG/CGH, between 30% and 50% full. It took ages, rattled and shook like a Model-T Ford on a rocky road, overhead bins opened and handluggage fell out.
I am not a pilot nor am I any longer associated with aviation. But I'd venture a guess that a takeoff like the one just mentioned would take a toll on the hydraulics - and much more - equivalent to several years of normal operation.

[BobnSpike]

Respectfully, airframe wear and tear is not considered in takeoff or landing performance calculations in the commercial world. It's about performance and payload.

[Check Airman]

I can only imagine what would happen if something similar had been done at my company. What the hell was this crew thinking?

At the very least, I'd be running everything after the after start checklist. If you forgot to set the flaps, what else may you have forgotten?

[Pugilistic Animus]

BelArgUSA used to warn to always check the three killers Trim, Flaps and Spoilers!!! Screw SOPS there's NEVER an excuse for this!!!:=:=:=:=

http://www.pprune.org/3648705-post15.html

[Check Airman]

BelArgUSA used to warn to always check the three killers Trim, Flaps and Spoilers!!! Screw SOPS there's NEVER an excuse for this!!!:=:=:=:=

Where's BelArgUSA? Haven't seen him posting in a while.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I'm not quite sure I think he's ok fron some of our past PMs

I really miss his wise and informative posts...:(

[bubbers44]

We got totally distracted on the descent in a 757 one day and at 200 ft did my usual gear, flaps and speed brake armed check. No speedbrakes armed and not one item had been done on the mechanical checklist. Since the FO was landing I whipped through the items in about 10 seconds before touchdown. I couldn't believe we forgot the checklist but we did.

[dwshimoda]

one of our stop items. Why the hell did they carry on?

[Pugilistic Animus]

Bubbers44

We've all made those types of errors; we've all gotten something into the red arc on one of the guages...but we must never do what this crew did as it defies airmanship totally...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE

[Pugilistic Animus]

dwshimoda ...Config warning should NOT be relied upon it has failed in the past---I forgot the case but best to pretend there is no such animal IMHO

Why did they continue?...They were muppets!!!...:*

[orion1210]

Parabella and bobnspike, thanks for that

[Check Airman]

...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE

I disagree. You can forget to do it for any number of reasons. If something interrupts your normal flow, and things get rushed after that, it can happen. I can imagine where you reach for the flap lever, then ATC calls with a funny request, then your hand never gets back to the lever.

What is unforgivable IMO is that they continued the takeoff.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Check Airman I disagree

yes, In some cases distractions can interrupt a flow or cause you to miss a minor item...that shouldn't kill anyone

But IMHO if it's critical Item in an extremely critical but optional phase of flight---You make sure you check those critical items, if you have to re-run a check list then you do...but Pitot heat,if not automatic, Anti Ice pressuriztion performance or whatever else may kill you must never be comprimised just to make a takeoff---up aginst slots and duty time limitations? oh well company's problem better late than dead---:cool:

Now right before a takeoff we know that there are three well known killers--- airmanship dictates that you STOP THAT AIRPLANE!!! and check them...whether you miss your slot, or not...we've repeated these mistakes long enough to know they can be unforgiving...

WE NEED TO JUST STOP!

[framer]

He didn't Say you can't forget to set flap, he said there is no excuse, and he's right. Actually....I can think of one excuse, if you joined a rubbish airline that paid lip service to training and safety when you were 19 years old, and continued through to a command in an airline devoid of any decent safety culture, and then forgot to set the flaps, I would say it is your management teams fault for not wearing the cost of decent training.

[fox niner]

.....and continued through to a command in an airline devoid of any decent safety culture, and then forgot to set the flaps, I would say it is your management teams fault for not wearing the cost of decent training.

But first and foremost it is your own bloody fault and responsibility that you are in the company you are in and you should leave immediately. If management and safety culture are bad, apply for a job somewhere else. Before you get killed/fried/blamed for things that are beyond your control.

[cockney steve]

^^^^ Like what he said, And don't forget that the tyro Aviator is able to tap into many lifetimes' wisdom and experience, via PPRuNe,just for the cost of an internet connection.

probably the best bargain in their lifetime.. As the man said....NO EXCUSE.

[Skypilot]

Slightly off-topic, but this seems as good a time and place as any to ask a question that I've wondered about for a while. On take off in an MD-8x series aircraft, there seems to be a point after the engines have spooled up when the engine note suddenly changes - it's audible 42s into this video. What is it that's going on that causes this to happen?

[framer]

I pretty much agree with you fox niner but I can imagine some countries ( I'm thinking Asia and Africa ) where the actual culture of the country would mean that pilot didn't even know they were in a rubbish airline. They get good grades at school or more likely have the right surname, and then get into a national carrier that is corrupt and recurrent simulator sessions are a complete sham. But I agree in most cases, there is no excuse for not setting flap. especially if you are the Captain and therefore managing the tempo and priorities of the flight.

[blind pew]

Sky pilot
If I remember correctly the air con switches off and doesn't come back on to above 500ft?
Take off performance up to and including 2nd segment in the event of an engine failure.

[de facto]

I pretty much agree with you fox niner but I can imagine some countries ( I'm thinking Asia and Africa ) where the actual culture of the country would mean that pilot didn't even know they were in a rubbish airline.

How condescendent towards other countries pilots..do you listen to yourself when you say such junk?:yuk:

[DX Wombat]

The SLF just care about cheap tixHetfield, I find that a most offensive remark. I am much more concerned with safety than the cost of my ticket which is why I prefer to save up, pay a little more and fly only with reputable airlines with a good safety record not those with a dodgy reputation but tickets which cost a mere handful of beans. Your attitude towards the people who effectively keep you employed is disgraceful and whether or not you intended it to do so, reflects badly on the airline which employs you. :*

[hamil]

... a 727, Delta, in DFW, that didn't lower flaps on takeoff ...

At least 2 DC-9/MD-80 series crashed because of it ... NWA in Detroit and Spanair in Madrid ... by the way, in both cases the TO warning system didn't work.

[framer]

Defecto , I don't think it's junk, that's why I say it :)
I'm not sure why you or anyone would be offended by it, it's just life, some countries ( and therefore some airlines) have major problems with corruption and safety is one of the first casualties. I mentioned Asia and Africa because I have lived in both those places while flying. Why does it upset you that I mentioned it? Anyway, don't get too worried, it was just an opinion, have a fun day , Framer

[hetfield]

@DX WOMBAT

Offensive? Maybe....

Couple years ago there was one of these candid camera shows on tv. They had a 737 (GERMANIA) with no seats (maintenance event, btw) instead on the ceiling a pair of handrails was installed, like in a bus.

They offered a refund of 25 Euros to do the two hour trip. Out of about 100 pax only 5 denied.

[Lonewolf_50]

At least 2 DC-9/MD-80 series crashed because of it ... NWA in Detroit and Spanair in Madrid ... by the way, in both cases the TO warning system didn't work.
hamil:

Whilst I appreciate why that system is in place, I find it hard to excuse professional pilots not properly performing checklists in multi crew aircraft. I am glad to see that whatever alerted the crew in the case under discussion go them to lower the flaps, but the part that gets me is: did these gents actually complete the take off checklist before beginning take off roll?

If not, there is an issue that needs to be addressed here.

Cockpit discipline.

[KingChango]

that tone chance around 42 seconds heard in this video is when the autothrottle switch is engaged.

in this video you can break down the throttle sequence in pieces.
from when the video starts, the throttle position is in IDLE.

then at the first chance of pitch, the pf moves the throttles from IDLE to Flight idle to get the initial spool up.

there after he slowly starts to increase throttle position to get to EPR 40% (where you stabelize engines and turn on autothrottle), but here in this range he received the Takeoff warning stating: FLAPS. letting you know that your flaps/slats are not in the correct position. they quickly put the flaps, noticing the CAWS (Central Aural Warning System) went silent; takeoff config is good, and then proceeded with autothrottle to takeoff power.

from what i see in this video, that the crew that day did miss several boeing recommendations. on taxi out, they were supposed to set flaps. in the taxi out checklist they should confirm flaps by doing a takeoff config test, and the before take off checklist as well with a visual gauge check.
they probably didn't do ANY checklist on this particular flight.
Atleast not an "post-spanair crash md80 checklist".:ugh:

[c46r]

A normal flaps 5 t/o from Embakasi

[PhilW1981]

At least 2 DC-9/MD-80 series crashed because of it ... NWA in Detroit and Spanair in Madrid ... by the way, in both cases the TO warning system didn't work

If I recall, in the case of NWA at Detroit the TO config warning did sound, but this still didn't trigger the crew to the non deployment of F&S.

[Sunnyjohn]

This is incorrect.
From Wiki:

The NTSB probable cause statement is as follows: "The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the accident was the flightcrew's failure to use the taxi checklist to ensure the flaps and slats were extended for takeoff. Contributing to the accident was the absence of electrical power to the airplane takeoff warning system which thus did not warn the flightcrew that the airplane was not configured properly for takeoff. The reason for the absence of electrical power could not be determined."

[Mr.Bloggs]

Nice ones, framer and Hetfield. Two truthful statements attracting impassioned politically-correct nonsense responses. The world has many people who cannot bear to hear the truth if it is remotely uncomfortable to them. (My airline management contains such individuals, who live in a fantasy world exemplified by the Emperor's New Clothes.

[hamil]

If I recall, in the case of NWA at Detroit the TO config warning did sound, but this still didn't trigger the crew to the non deployment of F&S.

Sorry, Phil, but the final report says that the CAWS - takeoff configuration warning mode was inop and, therefore, it did not inform the crew that the airplane was not properly configured for departure.

However, I suppose in NBO it saved the day ... fortunately.

[SeenItAll]

Not relevant to current passenger jets, but if you read the book "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" by Ted Lawson (who was a pilot on the Doolittle raid of WWII) he forgot to set the flaps of his B-25 while taking off from the Hornet. Only realized it when he put his hand down after takeoff to raise the flaps.

Pretty amazing that you had a medium bomber that was both very heavily loaded and never designed to take off from a carrier (no catapults in those days), that was still able to get into the air without flaps.

[Pugilistic Animus]

SeenItAll That was a good flying story they were lucky for the prop slipstream that's for sure...:\:\:\

while I don't think they should be sacked retrained definitely...but this is such fundemental airmanship that I feel it's like being trained on when to tie your shoes....and if it was company culture, training or SOPS then retraining may be futile...the captain should definitely switch seats---at the very least

[Schnowzer]

What's that light spot thingy on the ground that moves from the piano keys towards the trailing edge between 12-17 seconds on the film?

The Mysterons?;)

[framer]

and if it was company culture, training or SOPS then retraining may be futile...the captain should definitely switch seats---at the very least
I agree the Captain should switch seats.If it was culture and training then it´s the leadership that is lacking and the CEO or CP should switch seats as well. It would take an external investigation to come up with that recomendation though....not very likely.

[Hotel Tango]

DX wombat, I don't know why you're getting so hot under the colar. I too am not led by price and I too am very selective about who I fly with. Nevertheless, I think it's a fair statement to suggest that most (not all) passengers flying LCC and or cowboy outfits are only looking for the cheapest deals.

[gcal]

BA 737 BCN/LGW a few years back - take off roll started then stopped, then the slats set and off we went.

General practice on the airlines I fly mostly BA/EZ is to set these before the start of taxi.

If one day I notice it hasn't been done should I be up out of my seat? I think so as it would be a departure from the norm.

How do we know that pax on the Spanair noticed this and did nothing? From what I read there were quite a few staff on board as well.

[dwshimoda]

In certain circumstances, eg a contaminated taxi way, it is SOP in our company not to put the flaps out until cleared to line up, so it's not always as clear cut as you may think. Also, so TO flap settings may look like little or no flap is deployed, so I'd be very careful before you take action and make the cabin un-secure, thereby creating an RTO.

This has been covered in a previous thread.

[gcal]

I do know what the slats/flaps should look like on the aircraft I fly on most often, and, when it is normal practice to have them deployed.
If, in normal circumstances, we were approaching the hold and I could see no such settings, then that would make me very worried indeed.
Making a cabin insecure would be not very high on my list of concerns.

A Robin I flew occasionally for leisure some years ago had leading edge slats - they'd retract on the take off run, quite normal and harmless but still a tad disconcerting.

[Pugilistic Animus]

If I were a punter and observed such a thing; I'd immediately make the cabin very very insecure anyway I could!!!!
like the movie...I want to live!!!


:eek::eek::eek:

[dwshimoda]

If, in normal circumstances, we were approaching the hold and I could see no such settings, then that would make me very worried indeed.
Making a cabin insecure would be not very high on my list of concerns.

So it's -5 celsius, snowing, and the taxi ways are contaminated. Approaching the hold (assuming you know it is the hold, as you can't see forward) you decide it's up to you to make the cabin unsecure? What about de / anti icing and then setting the flaps? And what if it's a Flap 5 take-off - or whatever the lowest setting is on your particular type? Perhaps even LE only, as you're sat at the back you don't see the TE move.

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just saying that there's often a lot more going on. If the aircraft started to accelerate with engines stable, then yes - stand up, run around, open a door, whatever. But until that point you don't know where you are or what's going on and are second guessing the crew, procedures, TO config horn, and a whole host of other items.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Sir I'm certain I'd be able to excercise discretion and have the discernment to recognize if a crew seriously F-ed up something

I'd know a problem if a saw one---I'm sure he meant the same although I see your point but I can recognize a reduced flap setting too--- but if the engines are spooled it may already be too late...the crew already has brain-in- the-butt syndrome... I'd have to assume that more bad decisions are to follow --as this present case aptly illustrates...anyway rather be safe than sorry...even if I were completely wrong!!! at least I wont be dead wrong...:\

Besides most SOPS set the flaps well before crossing the line--as we've learned through blood and tears that that way is generally the best...;)-

[Pugilistic Animus]

Just one last thing...pretend that the TO config warning doesn't exists---like TCAS is just a last resort...and can fail at the worst time...don't rely on that... pretend it's not a real thing and operate in accordance!!!

:suspect:

[Pugilistic Animus]

If no one found out and there was no monitoring, I'd say very few---that being said- it's one of those thing where the real answer is just don't duit!!!

edit: That's why they are monitored!

:}

[FullWings]

We brief for an RTO and to vacate the runway after a config warning, the reason being that if you've forgotten something as important as flaps or speedbrakes, what ELSE have you done/not done that you're not aware of?

As far as reporting it, for us it's going to show up on the trace, so no option there. Better to cover yourself with a report...

[Pugilistic Animus]

And just to mention since deicing was was mentioned before... That's why most carriers have separate procedures and checklists for ground icing conditions...but even if they didn't those three critical items should be included in your personal checks...similar to verifying the RWY is correct and clear..it falls under the general rubric of airmanship irrespective of SOPs

[gcal]

'Sir I'm certain I'd be able to excercise discretion and have the discernment to recognize if a crew seriously F-ed up something'

Exactly and thank you...