Ryanair FR1919 incident in VLC 21 August 2012

[Furia]

Flight FR1919 from Valencia to Charleroi begun to lose fuel in a large volume while being refueled and while being boarded. The news say passengers "hurried to abandon plane"
Not sure if this was commanded by the crew or if it was an spontaneous act.
The news suggest that "passengers ran away"
The ramp was flooded by fuel.

This news link is in Spanish. You may use an online translator if you need.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/08/22/valencia/1345622389.html

[Tableview]

Ryanair say it was a defective fuel valve that 'should have been repaired.'

Daily Mail type reporting although without the dramatics, they interviewed 'Miguel Angel' who knew all the answers!

El Mundo is a relatively serious newspaper, no doubt the gutterpress will produce their own version of 'millions of gallons of highly inflammable petrol about to explode as pilots walked round the aircraft with cigarettes in their hand'

[Burpbot]

"A faulty valve that should have been replaced"

A glowing endorsement of an airlines maintenance procedures!

I assume the regulations regarding fuelling at this airfield with pax was observed? I also assume the appointed fuelling supervisor was paying full attention to the fuelling right up until the point his/her shoes got wet ;)

[Callsign Kilo]

The fuel supervisor was readjusting his stetson at the time of the incident. His attempts to alert the Flightdeck couldn't be heard for the sound of the captain's spurs rattling off the floor.The cabin crew junior was too busy dosey-doeing on the ramp and failed to notice the stricken panic of her passengers.

Something like that I'd imagine :rolleyes:

[MagnusP]

"A faulty valve that should have been replaced"

On the aircraft or on the refuelling rig?

[JW411]

Oh don't be silly. Why would it matter if the fault lay with the fuelling truck or the guy who connected the hose?

[jackieofalltrades]

On the aircraft or on the refuelling rig?

Good question. Any further detail on this point?

[jackharr]

Silly me. I had assumed they use overwing gravity refuelling - surely that must be cheaper?:p (And no valves to go wrong)

Jock. Do you remember doing that in Francistown circa 1965/66? Barrels of fuel fork lifted (or some such method) to be high enough and poor flight engineer precariously on top of wing. I chose not to join him in a supervisory capacity:hmm:

[JW411]

I do indeed.

I also remember a refueller managing to put the entire fuel load in one wing such that when I walked out to the aircraft, it already had a 10 degree wing down list, the oleos on the left wing had almost gone flat and fuel was pouring out of every rivet hole. The airfield concerned was Sharjah.

It could not have happened at a better time. I was taking the C in C back to Aden!

We took a small delay.

[djfwells]

Looks like their was yet another Ryanair "situation" on Alicante - Bristol the other week
>> Unexplained "Procedural" behaviour on Ryanair flight (http://tinyurl.com/d6xnp7v)

[Checkboard]

From the Google english translation of the Spanish site, it sounds like an overflow from one of the Fuel Tank Vents (http://www.b737.org.uk/fuel_tank_vent.htm), the NACA ducts under the wings near the tips.

An overflow such as this occurs if the fuel limit switch doesn't close the fuel valve when the tank is full (i.e. either component fails) - and is one reason passengers are told not to walk under the wing whilst boarding/disembarking.

[transilvana]

As far as I can remember on the B737 you only get this situation when wing tanks are full. Now, if the crew on RYR doesn´t even have time between shocks to go to the toilet never the less to watch a refueling, so who to blame?

On a normal situation an eng. or crew member would be with the fuelling meanwhile the other pilot would be in cockpit getting the aircraft ready for next trip.

[Burpbot]

One would assume the fuel guy would be at his fuelling station holding the dead mans switch in order for fuel to flow! Hence would see any leaks or faults from his equipment pretty quickly!

As transilvana says the poor crew wouldn't have had time to go the toilet let alone supervise fuelling! Again a glowing reference for the airlines safety procedures, not to mention welfare responsibilities for the crew.

[fireflybob]

As transilvana says the poor crew wouldn't have had time to go the toilet let alone supervise fuelling!

There is a requirement for the Captain to nominate a "Refuelling Supervisor" which has to be a suitably qualified person and will generally be the First Officer, the Captain (himself) but could be an Engineer or another crew member who is travelling "jump seat". The Refuelling Supervisor is required to establish communication with the flight deck and report any problems asap. The RFS is, as far as I can recall, only required to be "on station" when pax are on board and/or deplaning or boarding.

In my 5 years with the said Company I ensured this requirement was strictly complied with and am sure that my colleagues did likewise.

[Depone]

Ryanair is the only company I've ever seen providing a crew member to supervise the refuelling between flights.

[16024]

This is totally off-topic but is a quote from the link @post 11:

the crew checked under the seat they were sat in, the seat in front, dropped down each of the tray tables then removed the seat cushions to check underneath.

"They're looking for something" said one passenger

The point being that we really shouldn't underestimate our paying customers...

And what tray tables are those, then? Subbing out again mick?

Anyhow...
RYR is the only company I know that requires crew to take up station as RF supervisor, therefore going single-crew for most of an already rushed 25 minute turn round. Do they not pay the professionals enough to do their job properly? have I just answered my own question?

[Burpbot]

Depone, it's a requirement in most companies.

RFS attendance depends on the local regulations set by each airport authority. However RFS attendance is mandatory with PRM's on board. Remember that when your observing a 25 min turnaround, I wonder what ryan ops would say if you nominated that for the delay??

[16024]

it's a requirement in most companies.
Nope. Nowhere I've worked in 25 years.

I wonder what ryan ops would say if you nominated that for the delay??

You mean the newly created "Lago Valencia"?

Still, it shows the SOP works well doesn't it?

[fireflybob]

I wonder what ryan ops would say if you nominated that for the delay??

As long as the correct delay code and an explanation was written on the voyage report it was never an issue in my experience.

[172_driver]

From EU-OPS:

Re/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking

An operator must establish operational procedures for re/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking to ensure the following precautions are taken:

1. one qualified person must remain at a specified location during fuelling operations with passengers on board. This qualified person must be capable of handling emergency procedures concerning fire protection and firefighting, handling communications and initiating and directing an evacuation;

2. a two-way communication shall be established and shall remain available by the aeroplane’s inter-communication system or other suitable means between the ground crew supervising the refuelling and the qualified personnel on board the aeroplane;

3. crew, staff and passengers must be warned that re/defuelling will take place;

4. “Fasten Seat Belts” signs must be off;

5. “NO SMOKING” signs must be on, together with interior lighting to enable emergency exits to be identified;

6. passengers must be instructed to unfasten their seat belts and refrain from smoking;

7. the minimum required number of cabin crew specified by OPS 1.990 must be on board and be prepared for an immediate emergency evacuation;

8. if the presence of fuel vapour is detected inside the aeroplane, or any other hazard arises during re/defuelling, fuelling must be stopped immediately;

9. the ground area beneath the exits intended for emergency evacuation and slide deployment areas must be kept clear; and
provision is made for a safe and rapid evacuation.



Ryanair's Refueling Supervisor procedure comply with these points, but it's always up for interpretation. Commonly you establish communication and then go for your walk around, wait outside till fueling is complete, sign the receipt and go back up. Certain airports, Italian ones typically, apply the regulations more rigorously and requires the supervisor to on the headset throughout the refueling process.

[transilvana]

In my 5 years with the said Company I ensured this requirement was strictly complied with and am sure that my colleagues did likewise.

Well, today I watched 5 RYR aircrafts on the tarmac and I didn´t see any soul comming from the cockpit to check the fuelling. Actually in two of them pax leaving were waiting on the bus to be boarded meanwhile pax arriving were boarded on different buses.

[fireflybob]

Well, today I watched 5 RYR aircrafts on the tarmac and I didn´t see any soul comming from the cockpit to check the fuelling. Actually in two of them pax leaving were waiting on the bus to be boarded meanwhile pax arriving were boarded on different buses.

The refuelling supervisor does not have to "come from the cockpit" - it could be a ground engineer, for example. Normally the way to communicate would be via a headset plugged in outside to the interphone but an open cockpit window with said RFS banging on the nose and shouting to attract attention may arguably satisfy the requirement (not saying I liked that system myself).

Are you sure refuelling was actually taking place with passengers on board? Just because the bowser is connected does not mean that fuel is being pumped.

If crews are disobeying this regulation then they do so at their own peril since this aspect is monitored by SAFA inspectors and also Company personnel. Also as Captain I wouldn't like to be held liable in the case of fire and loss of life/injury.

As has been pointed out previously Ryanair are, to my knowledge, the only airline that requires crews to nominate a Refuelling Supervisor.

[antiskid marks]

In normal airlines, ground staff is trained for this, meaning recurrent training etc.
FR surprisingly doesn't want to pay for it...hence, flight crew has to do it....
The answer is ALWAYS they don't want to pay!
That's a theory which is very close to reality if not 100%

[Burpbot]

Abhhhhh if only it was a fair playing field!

[cairndow_123]

Speaking of fork lifting barrels of fuel for over wing refueling years ago in Francistown, remember the DC4 which was refueled with JetA1, a plane load if mine workers destined for South Africa, soon after take off all 4 engines 'coked up', seized, pilots made to return to runway stalled in the turn, crashed. The one survivor, flight engineer dashed from cockpit to tail of aircraft before it struck.
Far as can tell it was never legally established who was at fault, but what were flight engineers duties ?

[silverhawk]

When I worked for this shower, I used the FO's DV window as a two way communication.

[hetfield]

In normal airlines,I like that phrase:ok:

[BALLSOUT]

Yes, as pointed out earlier, It's a legal requirement in Europe that all de-refueling
while pax are on board must be supervised by a responsible person. Most other airlines have longer turn round times, and pay a little more to the agent, so the dispatcher will be responsible. In most places the agents will also have some agreement with the refueling company and they may take on the responsibility themselves. So it is down to two things, time and money. Quicker and cheaper to get the crew to add it to their long list of responsibilities.
I hope the captain wasn't on one of their lovely new Brookfield contracts as he may well get the bill for all of the disruption, and fuel!

[RAT 5]

"Quicker and cheaper to get the crew to ........."

Cheaper yes, quicker NO. 25 min turnrounds, >3hr flight = >9000ltrs @ 750lt/hr = >12mins just to pump. Add on connect, disconnect, sign the receipt and climb upstairs = 20 mins. That's 5 mins left for post flt & pre flt procedures. Good game.

[fireflybob]

Cheaper yes, quicker NO. 25 min turnrounds, >3hr flight = >9000ltrs @ 750lt/hr = >12mins just to pump. Add on connect, disconnect, sign the receipt and climb upstairs = 20 mins. That's 5 mins left for post flt & pre flt procedures. Good game.

Not entirely true although I share the sentiments!

All a question of time and motion - if you get your skates on them some (if not all if the bowser arrives a bit late) of the preflight preparation and briefing can be done before pumping starts. PM goes out to do walkround, plugs in headset etc. and watches refuelling but also keeps eagle eye out for when all pax are off - when they are nip up to the flightdeck to complete brief/preparation etc whilst watching for approaching departing pax - when sighted nip out again to finish refuel supervision and sign receipt etc.

Yes it keeps you on your toes and is not ideal in terms of a relaxed environment but it is possible to do if everything is going for you and anyway if it's anywhere near a full load both ways it's likely there will be some other reason for delay other than refuel supervision!

Not saying I like the concept of 25 minutes though!

[captplaystation]

I remember a few years back the Deputy C.P. producing a sheet of paper (no doubt for the benefit of the I.A.A) which showed how the time was divided second by second on a 25min turn-around. It was a work of art (or was it comedy? ) FMC loading 3min4sec , walkround 4min18 sec etc etc. If anyone still has it, they should post it here (or perhaps in Jet Blast on the Friday Joke thread)

I remember asking at the time where was the allowance for having a wazz? or was I just supposed to lift my leg against the nose-gear whilst doing the fuelling supervision (multi-tasking Eh , fuelling & defuelling simultaneously)

The repercussions of needing an early morning constitutional were unthinkable, I never could find the delay-code for "taking a dump" :rolleyes:

[fireflybob]

The repercussions of needing an early morning constitutional were unthinkable, I never could find the delay-code for "taking a dump"

cps, love that!

When I worked as a railway signaller we could delay trains for a "personal comfort break"!! (To get to the washroom you had to leave the signal box and go to the adjacent hut)

[Capt. Inop]

In normal airlines

So, what's normal?

I've been flying for several airlines through the years, SOP's can be different but in the end they are all normal.

[McBruce]

Anyone have that memo from cowboy McK? Anyone read his recent memo stating all crew meals in ovenbags must be sealed by cable ties! Comedy genius but god help us all if he ever gets CP.

RYR crew are meant to do the RFS. It's a common reminder from the company. I'm in a base that commonly has 4hr plus flights. That's 15000lts uplift generally at anywhere between 500lts to 750lts per min. On a 25 min turnaround that was designed when RYRs average sector length was about 1hr to 1.5hrs.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Does it really take 30 hours for you to refuel?



;)

[McBruce]

Sometimes it seems like that! :ugh:

Edited!! ;)

[boredcounter]

mmm Just booked FR again, maybe I will see for myself if there are two available exits for pax. One is normally closed if an airbridge is used, never seen the Cabin Crew 'stand by' the Aft doors. Still having watched FR pax face aft following the 'we will deplane through the forward door, via the airbridge............................ One wonders I booked i again

[MagnusP]

Oh don't be silly. Why would it matter if the fault lay with the fuelling truck or the guy who connected the hose?

Because Burpbot wrote:

A glowing endorsement of an airlines maintenance procedures!

Just trying to establish whether it was a Ryanair feckup or an airport issue. Want to explain why that's silly?

[Burpbot]

Magnus, I think you will find I explained why it was very unlikely to be a problem with the tanker/fuel rig.

[CEJM]

Are you sure refuelling was actually taking place with passengers on board? Just because the bowser is connected does not mean that fuel is being pumped.

SAFA use the rule that once the bowser is connected to the aircraft you are refuelling. If the bowser is pumping or not is not relevant.

[Nicholas49]

Question from a passenger: is it correct that when the seatbelt signs are OFF during embarkation/pre-departure, this means the aircraft is being refuelled?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Seat belts must be undone whilst refuelling. If they're off that maybe one of the reasons but maybe I just haven't tured them on yet.

[LEMG]

Confirmed.
New incident in a Ryanair flight.
Unscheduled stop in STN due to technical problems after departing from LBA.

Desvan a Alicante un avin de Ryanair que aterriz de urgencia en Londres. Las Provincias (http://www.lasprovincias.es/20120908/comunitatvalenciana/provincia_alicante/aterrizaje-ryanair-201209080745.html)
Sorry, but no info in british newspapers