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ShotOne
6th Apr 2002, 05:36
I'm surprised not to have seen any comment here on the EU proposals this week to levy an "environmental charge" on aviation fuel for international flights.

Our industry is already being hammered with tax -departure tax, government imposed overfligt charges increasing at many times the rate of inflation. Just what do these guys think they are doing? Talk about sticking the boot in when we are down!

Wino
6th Apr 2002, 15:53
Yep nothing like the EU to drive the cost of fuel up in the name of "the envirnment" which will cause people to tanker fuel INTO the EU thereby burning more fuel, thereby increasing greenhouse emissions.

More stupidity from Brussles... I just love cash grabs in the name of the "envirnment"

Cheers
Wino

Unwell_Raptor
6th Apr 2002, 17:48
This one will not go away. In most of the developed world there are measures in place to control automobile emissions, which are being gradually tightened. One day the lawmakers will look at aviation which pumps huge and increasing amounts of pollutants into the upper atmosphere. The first stop will be taxes on fuel. Now of course no single country can tax avtur because aircraft are mobile, but on a Europe-wide or North America-wide basis it might stick. Not now, not soon, but it's coming.

411A
6th Apr 2002, 21:29
Europe, yes....North America....wanna bet?

twistedenginestarter
7th Apr 2002, 10:19
This of course is the biggest single risk to pilots. The only reason the business is at all healthy is down to Ryan, Easy etc. The only reason they are healthy is because it is cheaper to fly to Alicante than drive to Falmouth. Put an equal tax on jet fuel and the M5 will suddenly become a lot busier.

And the value of that appartment you just bought in Marbella.....

phd
8th Apr 2002, 15:27
I do not relish the prospect of aviation fuel duty being imposed on our already beleagured industry - but wake up and smell the coffee guys!

Sooner or later we are all going to have to bear the true costs of the environmental impacts we create through consumption of the world's natural resources. So far aviation has had things pretty good - the poor old motorist and the haulage industry have not been so lucky and pay about 80% of their fuel costs as tax. Admittedly they also cause a lot of the air pollution responsible for 1/3 of UK children now suffering asthma sometime during their lives, and for the effects of global warming which will have a devastating and long term impact on all of us.

Increased tax on avtur/avgas will undoubtedly have a negative impact on aviation by increasing seat prices, as the airlines pass on the increased costs to the passengers. The smart and successful airlines will be the ones who can move the most passengers for the least amount of fuel consumed (as always), using the correct sized aircraft for the route and maximising the load factors. The manufacturers will also have to become more creative at making more efficient engines and coming up with fuels from renewable sources such as bio-matter. Fossil fuel resources are finite and will eventually run out. Let's hope the duty levied will be used wisely by the government to fund R&D to develop other fuels, but somehow I doubt it.

WorkingHard
8th Apr 2002, 21:24
I am afraid it is right that this duty is coming like it or not. my mount is still on piston power and that means avgas at around 1 per litre including duty and taxes. When you jet jockeys get only half way to that I bet you squeal ( well at least your bean counters will). Don't misunderstand, I sympathise, but it will not stop the inevitable.

411A
8th Apr 2002, 23:29
Truly do hope that the "Europeans" levy the environmental tax as described.....those "outside" Europe will only laugh....and scoop up the gravy elsewhere.
Imagine...Ryanair flying all SE Asia and South Asian/Australian pax to say....Cairo....for onward transport to destination.
Asian, Indian, Australian aircarriers will smile all the way to the bank.
:D :D :D

ShotOne
10th Apr 2002, 00:15
This is NOT inevitable -and even if it was, this is not the time to start. Neither is it a logical follow on to our swingeing road fuel taxes. Even for that, most countries in the world tax fuel at very much lower rates than those you quote, phd. And so far, no country has claimed the right to levy duty on fuel used on the high seas or international airspace.

If this is implemented in the EU as opposed to a worldwide basis, it will result in a sharply uphill playing field for all EU airlines as they attempt to compete with those in the rest of the world. There is no question of this being an "environmental tax". It is just another excuse to gouge our industry.

twistedenginestarter
10th Apr 2002, 08:49
Shotty

If it were implemented it would only be the EU. Nowhere else is prepared to be a decent global citizen, sadly.

This would not cause a problem as you could apply tax on only intra-EU flights. Fuel for other destinations could be unchanged. Aircraft carrying out intra-EU flights having picked up fuel from outside the EU could presumably be taxed on the fuel-on-board.

ShotOne
10th Apr 2002, 09:46
That would mean every international flight would have to have its fuel measured and verified on arrival to work out what proportion was used in the EU. Even before a penny was raised in duty this would cost a great deal of money -plus of course the army of inpectors who would be needed to ensure compliance have to be paid. Who would pay -you guessed it, the airlines.

Once again, this has little to do with the environment and everything to do with treating our industry as a milk-cow.

JPJ
10th Apr 2002, 10:01
The simple solution would be an EU-wide fuel tax at a uniform rate. Tankering will only happen on fairly short routes for obvious reasons. Since the EU will soon be very large indeed, it could be done.

411A
10th Apr 2002, 14:07
Right on the money, ShotOne.....and it would not be the first time that "Europe" shot itself in the foot.

Roadtrip
10th Apr 2002, 17:24
Maybe the Euro countries ought to tax fuel remaining in fuel tanks in foreign aircraft after landing. Heck, they could extrapolate the fuel burned since crossing the FIR or border and tax that too. Think of the increased job possibilites!!! Great idea EU!!! Very progressive!!! Go for it!!!!

Self Loading Freight
11th Apr 2002, 10:31
It's going to happen sooner or later: there's no alternative. Nobody's in any serious doubt about the long-term costs of burning carbon fuels, and aviation is a huge contributor to the problem.

And it's not rocket science to work out how much fuel's left in the tanks when you land in the EU, nor where you got the stuff from in the first place.

What alternatives to kerosene are there? Electric motors? Hardly! Hydrogen? Yes, but see http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRH9809/FR9809k.htm Nukes? http://www.megazone.org/ANP/atomair.shtml is very entertaining but hardly promising. Solar power? Who knows...

R

411A
11th Apr 2002, 14:46
Hmm SLF, "nobody" seriously have doubts about burning carbon based fuels...? Seems to me a recent study by the Rand Corporation (think tank...not an oil company) indicated that "global warming" caused by burning carbon based fuels was hogwash, and the list or reasons were as long as your arm. This will of course NOT change any econo-environmental babble minds...its ALL about collecting taxes and distributing from the haves to the have-nots...mostly for cushy bureaucrats in Brussels, who want MORE.

under_exposed
11th Apr 2002, 15:08
411A, the "econo-environmental babble minds" may be wrong in which case they will look stupid. If you are wrong we will all look doomed. Would it not be wise to conserve until we know one way or the other ?

411A
11th Apr 2002, 15:24
Well under_exposed, as for conserving...ah, why? There is already enough proven oil reserves in the Ar Rab al Khali (empty quarter) of Saudi Arabia, more than has been pumped from both Saudi and Kuwait combined, since the first oil was discovered there in 1938. Chevron & Texaco records are there for all to read.
Reasonable conservation, OK...but let's not get carried away. If Europe wants to have high(er) taxes on jet fuel, thats their business, but don't be surprised if the world...passes them by.