Dallas Dispute - Qantas Crew stood down.

[Bankstown]

This would be the 'QF8' delay alluded to in a previous thread:
Runway ruckus: Qantas pilots hit stormy weather before take-off (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/runway-ruckus-qantas-pilots-hit-stormy-weather-before-takeoff-20120820-24iri.html)

[Capn Bloggs]

I'd be punching my effo if he tried to punch stuff into my beloved FMS! :}

[HamFan]

Accorrding to the report, it was one of the SOs, not the FO.

If he can't sort things out with the knuckle, a shrewd capt can always resort to "CRM" to mind-f**k the SO into feeling placated and shutting his yap. Looks like the capt dropped the ball on this occasion.

Capts being reported by the help, capts being gotten the better of by SOs... what next? The cleaners lodging complaints???

[Kun Lun TaSia]

Couldn't the skipper and s/o settle the issue without getting the " ground " moppets into the party? Both must be really ANAL to the core to allow this to happen!

[Otto Pylut]

Reminds me of the story where a Qantas SO cleaned his seat rail with a toothbrush after he got upset when it wasn't done to his satisfaction.

[Livs Hairdresser]

I wonder who keeps leaking these stories to the media.

It seems to me that every time QF makes an announcement that might draw adverse attention to itself, a story painting QF pilots in a bad light appears at the same time. A few weeks ago when Joyce confirmed QF's losses, it was the 'drunk' pilot story. Now, that AJ's salary vs QF's poor performance is being highlighted, we get this story. A few years ago, incidents such as these would have been kept in-house.

QF PR at its finest.

[ejectx3]

If my sources are correct, the capt involved has a history of extremely bad inter-crew relations , with many crew bidding to avoid.

Perhaps just picked the wrong s/o to do his usual screaming and shouting / one man army routine on.

[Kharon]

Seem to remember a similar series of altercations many years ago, punch ups on the flight deck etc. I thought they traced it back to a HR issue, screening process or something. Dim memories now, but; mayhap, there is a solution in history.

[teresa green]

A blue between the S/O and the Skipper? Whatever happened to " if I want your fu#$ing advice I will ask for it"? So famously stated in years gone by. Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck. You would have to pity the F/O probably trying to stop the other two belting each other.If indeed lack of discipline is starting to show in the office, then its time something is done about it, one ship, one Captain, and unless you need to utter those words "Captain you must listen to me" its probably a good idea to speak to the F/O first and quietly voice your concerns, he will either support you or go with the Skipper, either way no harm done. As probably the oldest S/O QF ever had (due to the little altercation in 89) there was many a time I had to bite my tongue, but in all fairness most of the Skippers asked my opinion, ( probably due to the fact that I was old enough to be their father and possibly had a clue). Anyway, who is releasing this stuff?

[Sand dune Sam]

Isn't the Qantas psychometric, NASA selection testing supposed to weed out this kind of thing?:ugh:

[73to91]

It seems to me that every time QF makes an announcement that might draw
adverse attention to itself, a story painting QF pilots in a bad light appears
at the same time.


Or someone in the press asks a question (and there are not too many of them) or has a little dig, to be sure, like this:

YOU could never accuse Alan Joyce of having his head in the clouds.

The latest in an ever-lengthening conga line of corporate leaders to resist
the temptation for a few extra million dollars in take-home pay, the Qantas boss yesterday declared he, too, would not accept a bonus this year.

A noble gesture, to be sure. But it immediately begged the question: After a year of turmoil at the airline, culminating in an expected loss of more than $200 million, why would he even imagine he was entitled to one?


Read more: The mood has shifted on bonuses for high-flyers (http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-mood-has-shifted-on-bonuses-for-highflyers-20120820-24ikn.html#ixzz247oc6mPd)

[ejectx3]

Believe me, this protagonist has a VERY long history of tea and bickies.

[The Green Goblin]

qh42k3Kvxck

:hmm::ok::E:hmm:

[ruprecht]

It seems they put a camera in for my last cyclic.:p

[greenslopes]

Teresa,

What should the other crew member do if the "Captain you must Listen" has been rolled out and still nothing happens.
What would be the outcome if the crew had departed with an incident/accident occurring and the CVR recordings indicating complete breakdown in flight deck cooperation?
Good on Qantas for standing down the crew till this is resolved.
As usual there are three sides(at least) to every story.
The old school of perceiving the S/O as a mindless ****, is no longer entirely relevant as many have come from extremely rich(experience/skill levels) flying backgrounds.
As recent as 13 Oct 2008 in Lanzarote an overbearing Capt pressured the F/O till his S.A was so diminished he felt unable to speak up and an overrun ensued.
A good result so far, Safety is the primary driver.

[shiftpattern]

:hmm:
Sounds typical of the CRM of some of the QF pilots I've met over the years.
"I couldn't possibly be wrong", "Neither could I", "No you must be, "No, you must be", etc,etc

[Livs Hairdresser]

"I couldn't possibly be wrong", "Neither could I", "No you must be, "No, you must be", etc,etc

So how exactly was your approach different to that of "some of the QF pilots I've met over the years"? :ugh:

[S70IP]

I guess the exact incident truth will never come out, at least in this forum anyway.
SO speak up more these days ever since the Qantas 747 parked itself in the golf course a few years ago. The SO said nothing and lost his job.

[NOTAM]

Isn't the Qantas psychometric, NASA selection testing supposed to weed out this kind of thing?

Very good question Sand Dune Sam. Maybe the QF pprune armchair solicitors can answer this one. Keg, Livs hairdresser etc. care to comment? :cool:

[Dogman]

Seems to me that this shouldve been a perfect case of having 3 crew members to resolve an issue between 2 of them. If the S/O had either incorrectly entered the wrong data, or The captain believed that they had...... Well then as the Capt and S/O stand their ground, the F/O steps in and makes an independent assessment..... Effectively becoming the umpire.

Of course these issues are never as straight forward as this, and quite possibly there is some background of past history involved.

Remember the last resort (and yes it can be viewed as extreme..... Especially for a S/O) is to pick up your nav bag and walk off the flight deck. After that it doesn't matter what happens. Call your ops dept, HR etc and explain the situation. No airline wants an aircraft to depart with the crew at each others throats!

[hadagutful]

Don't know how this got to the media but they are always ready to pounce when it comes to Qantas..

If the report is true, hard to believe in this day and age that it could happen. You would think that the crew whatever their experience could have a civil conversation to sort the situation out.
But I agree with above comments in regard to safety, best to relieve them of duty or at least change the crew as did happen.
Doesn't give the pax much confidence though to hear that those at the sharp end are having disagreements before a 16 hour flight!

There's probably more to this in terms of human factors but best if Q management can sort it internally without the media getting their twisted sway on it.

[Livs Hairdresser]

Very good question Sand Dune Sam. Maybe the QF pprune armchair solicitors can answer this one. Keg, Livs hairdresser etc. care to comment?

Geez, I dunno. Maybe we can start by figuring out how you snuck through the system ;)

[Keg]

SO speak up more these days ever since the Qantas 747 parked itself in the golf course a few years ago. The SO said nothing and lost his job.

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. I've never heard of the S/O losing his job. It'd be a pretty big deal amongst our crew if that were the case.

Isn't the Qantas psychometric, NASA selection testing supposed to weed out this kind of thing?
Very good question Sand Dune Sam. Maybe the QF pprune armchair solicitors can answer this one. Keg, Livs hairdresser etc. care to comment?

Sure. A number of QF pilots were employed well before they started to use psychometric testing. I don't know who this Captain is (or the S/O for that matter) but he wouldn't be the first fruit loop to grace the QF flight decks if he's a 'known' person.

Of course there is the possibility here that the media has it very, very wrong- wouldn't be the first time- so perhaps I'll reserve judgement on the situation until I actually know what happened.

Contrary to popular belief, QF pilots don't consider themselves perfect. If recent PPRUNE contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines- particularly the silver and orange part of the group. :E

[mcgrath50]

Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck.

Knowing the age of most of the SOs in Qantas almost certainly he is Gen X, not the feared and hated Gen Y.

We all know how twisted facts get in the media when it comes to technical details (strange in this article the tech details seem spot on, is that significant to who leaked this?). It should come as no surprise that we don't know exactly what happened between the two pilots.

TG, I enjoy the majority of your posts but am sick of having my generation slagged off as if we are worthless, lazy, no gooders. If you feel like getting to know someone from Gen Y, finding out about my work ethic and other philosophy's on life shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear some of your war stories too! :ok:

[desk]

i brought this up here (well eluded that something had happened) under my jetstar cadet thread that was quickly locked. What do you know Mr moderator and others that want all the information straight away... sometimes you just have to wait a bit for the details to come out instead of putting down those who bring up open ended topics for discussion!!!:p

[desk]

I know the names..but don't think names are allowed on Pprune??... I'm either not willing to post enough information, or too much it seems. Keg...you would know the Capt, if only by reputation... he is a shocker. The SO is an experienced one (as they all are by now...). If the Capt keeps his command or even his job then the saying "whats harder to do than get into Qantas??... getting kicked out!" may be true...

[radnav]

Weather delays, duty-time limits....cancelled flight, Captain answerable not SO but....

for SO to stand ground there must have been a serious anomally somewhere that a 3rd pilot should have been easily able to independantly vote the "outlier" out (lucky to have a 3rd pilot).

But too many holes and limited info as always; what FMS inputs, still at gate or on taxiway, LMC, re-route, "interpretation/assesment of runway surface or weather conditions etc etc.

Some inputs and decisions can be interpretive based on experience but as long as the SO was not being @nal for the sake of it (doubt that) then as an active crew member they must challenge.

If not positively resolved in a timely fashion then some doubt probably existed all round the entire crew......"when in doubt there is no doubt", so good job by all not to take an unresolved issue onto the runway.

It seems the weather delays and lack of spare duty time just didn't allow for a timely resolution, leading to a cancelled flight....... otherwise it would have been a non-event (as I'm sure it was) and QF PR would have one less opportunity to throw distractive mud (blame) at pilots.

[neville_nobody]

The flight was cancelled due duty time limits, after that they got wind of the dispute, then had to fly new crew over.

[NOTAM]

If recent PPRUNE contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines

Definition from Wikipedia: Rationalisation (making excuses) - a psychological defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors are logically justified.

Enough said! :E

[brown_hornet]

Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck.

I agree with most of your sentiments Teresa but that there is rubbish! Besides, you'll probably find that most Gen Y'ers who have made it to the flightdeck of an airliner aren't typical of the no good, rude lazy slobs we are so often stereotyped as!:ok:

[Anthill]

If the Captain proposes to operate the flight 1) Safely and 2) Lawfully, then the captain should have every reasonable expectation that the crew will offer their complete support.

If there is a breach of safety or SOP, the crew must speak up. If a crew member can see a more efficient way of doing things, then they should offer the suggestion to the other crew. The Captain then makes an assessment on what is the best plan of action (even if not his/her idea) and implements it.

There are some crew out there in aviation land who think that the captain must automatically incorporate ideas, however impractical, that are raised by the SO/FO. This is not good CRM. The captain is the decision maker and the subordinate crew are there to support the captain in the safe and lawful operation of the aircraft. The perspective that an FO/SO can over-ride a safe and lawful command decision is not limited by generation, but is the by-product of poor CRM culture.

Some years ago, a FO over-rode my command decision to land a B737 on RWY 14 BN. This FO stated that use of that RWY was "non-standard" (ie: he hadn't.. "seen anyone else use it" before). When I pointed out in ERSA that it was lawful and the wind of 100/25 made it the safer option (not to mention that radar vectors for RWY 01 would mean 5-6 mins additional flight time), he still refused to budge as he still felt that RWY 14 would breach SOPs. After landing on RWY 01 (my command decision that all crew must be on the same page :rolleyes:), I asked him to show me where in the AIP/SOPs/ERSA/JEPPs that RWY 14 was illegal. He couldn't. I explained that his lack of knowledge had resulted in cost to the company and a degraded standard of safety; It is the responsibility of subordinate crew to know their friggin' stuff!! :=

I do not know what has happend on the QF8. The focus on what is right takes precedance over who is right. Either the use of the TO performance computer was safe and lawful or it wasn't. To cast 'blame' at this stage is premature. To say that the Captain has a "track record" may or may not be true. In any case, previous history has no relevance to what did or did not happen in Dallas. The facts will eventually come to light and until then, it is all second guessing.

(PS, The SO in QF1 at BKK did NOT get fired. This sounds more like another aviation myth).

[HamFan]

The SO is an experienced one

No doubt he is experienced - in the role of being an SO. One of the first things you figure out as a capt is how much you didn't know about the role of the capt when employed in a different seat. This SO is about to have a lesson on the subject.

CRM techniques also involve the FO/SO understanding the correct way to question instructions, which conflicts with Gen Y conditioning to cry like a baby when dissatisfied, ignored, not placated, etc. When combined with inexperience, brazeness and youthful ignorance plus the wrong capt on the receiving end, you get a cockpit "conflict".

At least it happened on the ground. Now the SO can stand up and account for his actions. He better have his poop in one sock or the list of management capts lining up to kick his arse will be long and distinguished. Just like Slider's johnson.

My money is on the capt.

[Livs Hairdresser]

If recent PPRUNE contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines
Definition from Wikipedia: Rationalisation (making excuses) - a psychological defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors are logically justified.

Enough said!

Are you trying to play tricky word games like you were with the MOU? Rationalise can have several meanings.

rationalize or rationalise
..
3. to apply logic or reasoning to something
..

You're still not upset by that whole MOU thing, are you? Why don't you continue this conversation on that thread, rather than detracting from this one?

[3 Holer]

The flight was cancelled due duty time limits, after that they got wind of the dispute, then had to fly new crew over.

QF must operate this flight very close to the maximum duty time limitation or that was one hell of a long argument?

[NOTAM]

Come on now Livs hairdresser no need to blow a fuse. Just having a bit of fun mate. Things not going so well in hairdressing? :E

[training wheels]

Whatever happened to playing Rock-paper-scissors to resolve disputes? Used to work well back in primary school ...

[teresa green]

If I have insulted the younger generation then I apologise, as you will all do as you age, and your children will test your mettle, that's life. However it is sad to read in a major paper that pilots allegedly used aggression on the flight deck, that resulted in them being stood down. it seems to me that is how things are done more and more in this world we live in, its not all that hard to discuss things and come to a agreement I would have thought, but perhaps not so much anymore. :confused:

[Keg]

QF must operate this flight very close to the maximum duty time limitation or that was one hell of a long argument?


I think thunderies played a part in this one also.

NOTAM, you may have been trying to 'have some fun' but I think Liv's hairdresser well and truly called you on it and had the last laugh. pwned. :E

[DutchRoll]

The S/O on the QF1 did not lose his job, though it did spur him on to a (voluntary) fleet change to get away from all the crap. He also happens to be a very nice bloke and a very capable operator.

However I do know of an occassion where a senior QF B747 captain stated quite matter of factly: "if it wasn't for the second officer, that QF1 accident would never have happened!" Many of those types have retired now, but you still come across one occasionally.

[Bleve]

DFW-BNE has a planned Flight Time of 16:05, which makes the planned Tour of Duty 17:35. As Keg has suggested, their departure was delayed out of DFW due to TS, pushing the ToD beyond the planned limit of 17:45/18:00 ??? After the ToD has started, this planned limit maybe extended to a maximum of 20:00, if and only if, all four pilots agree.

[TBM-Legend]

what about the paying passengers?

[TIMA9X]

what about the paying passengers? an interesting point of view on the subject here... for the record.

UM5AefGjStM

updated

.

[neville_nobody]

Now the punters are getting in on it.

I'll take a punt that the argument was over extending flight time in that someone wanted to and the other didn't.

It is also quite possibly a complete over reaction from Flight Ops too on a minor disagreement which has become some sort of punchup

These kind of leaks should also bring into question the confidentiality of the QF reporting system. How on earth can you report anything if it is in the paper next day.

QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash

Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/qfcock-up-comedy-of-errors-after-pilots-clash-20120821-24joq.html#ixzz249MMsn8q)

Passengers have described as a "flight from hell" and a "comedy of errors" their experience of a Qantas flight from Dallas, Texas, which culminated in two pilots having a heated argument in the cockpit.
The passengers on QF8 only learned today what had happened behind the scenes after Fairfax Media revealed that Qantas has stood down the captain and second officer of the 747-400 jumbo.
It was the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other. When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag

They have been withdrawn from duty for their argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the plane's computer system as it sat on the tarmac at Dallas's international airport.

Illustration: Cathy Wilcox
A passenger, Bronwyn Smith-Orme, said the entire flight home to Sydney was a "complete stuff up" and included repeated delays, lost baggage and a lack of staff to deal with passengers. Her father drove to Sydney Airport three times in the hope he could pick up his daughter.
Advertisement
"[It was] the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other," she said today. "When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag."
Ms Smith-Orme said the passengers on QF8 felt there was "something going on that we weren't told" but what "frustrates me more is that we felt abandoned in Dallas".
"Everything after that was just like a comedy of errors," she said.
Passengers were left sitting for more than two hours on the 747-400 jumbo as it was parked at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, during which time they were told the pilot was too busy to talk.
"Then there was another announcement to say there was a sick crew member, and then finally there was another announcement made by the pilots to say they did not have enough hours to get the plane to Brisbane," she said. "The whole thing did feel a bit suspicious because I have never had an announcement to say the pilot is too busy to talk to you."
Passengers had no idea there had been a dispute between the pilots.
Ms Smith-Orme said Qantas did not have enough staff at the airport in Dallas to deal with the passengers who had been offloaded for an overnight stay. Passengers did not get to a hotel until about 1am.
"The way they treated us at Dallas airport was deplorable. Qantas either don't have a plan as to what to do if they have a delayed plane, or they didn't follow it or their plan has serious flaws," she said.
"There was no one from Qantas around to tell us what was going on."
A business-class passenger from Sydney on QF8 said the communication from the airline was poor.
"I understand delayed flights due to weather ... but the contingency plans for what to do when that happens were just not existent. It was like the first time they have ever encountered that problem," he said.
Qantas has since launched an investigation into the dispute between the two pilots who have been told they cannot fly. The incident occurred last Tuesday night (US time) as a major thunderstorm was rolling across Dallas, causing severe congestion at the city's international airport.
It is rare for pilots to be stood down from operational duties.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority said today that it had been made aware that Qantas had stood down the pilots but would not comment further because the matter was being handled by the airline.
Because the pilots on QF8 were already close to exceeding their 20-hour duty limits due to delays caused by the thunderstorms, Qantas's flight operations managers decided to keep the plane on the ground overnight at Dallas.
The managers were later informed of the argument between the pilots and stood them down. It meant the airline had to bring in replacement pilots to fly QF8 back to Sydney via Brisbane the next day.
The jumbo, which can carry about 320 passengers on the ultra long-haul route across the Pacific, had been due to arrive in Brisbane at 5am on Thursday but did not touch down until 18 hours later.
A Qantas spokesman confirmed yesterday that a captain and a second officer had been withheld from service while an investigation was under way.
But he said the flight was late arriving in Brisbane because of the delays caused by the thunderstorms, not the altercation between the two pilots.
"Qantas flight QF8 from Dallas-Fort Worth to Brisbane on 14 August was delayed overnight as a result of severe thunderstorms in the Dallas area," he said.
The incident comes three weeks after a Qantas captain was removed from operational duties for testing positive to alcohol. The airline still has an investigation under way into the conduct of that captain, who flight attendants had suspected had been drinking before a flight.


Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/qfcock-up-comedy-of-errors-after-pilots-clash-20120821-24joq.html#ixzz249MBUPUB)

[hadagutful]

Good summary there Anthill, you make the point well.

But leaving aside the issues of all the kerfuffle up on the flight deck, poor communication from Qantas etc., I have just read that pax were apparently sitting on board for around two hours before being off loaded. This is very poor departure planning as on a long flight like that, the last thing you need is to be siiting there getting frustrated, blood pooling in the legs etc. and not being informed.

If it was wx such as thunderstorms, why the hell load the pax when the aircraft is not even going to depart? :{

[prospector]

, this planned limit maybe extended to a maximum of 20:00, if and only if, all four pilots agree.



Perhaps they did not agree???

[Wunwing]

TBM
Yes what about the paying passengers?
I was unaware that if crew felt that they could not extend due to fatigue that they had to consult the pax before making a decision.
Guess the regs you use are different to the ones I use.
Wunwing

[The The]

You would have to start questioning the whole confidential reporting system that is in place.

It is obviously leaking like a sieve given the recent media stories. Is there a rouge element leaking these events? Is this sanctioned by Senior Management? Is it being leaked from within the regulator? Is there an investigation into why so many normally confidential operational occurrences are suddenly turning up in the newspaper?

This could irreparably damage the reporting culture within the organisation. Occurrences may now go unreported as crew become fearful that reporting an event will end up in the newspaper.

[TIMA9X]

It is obviously leaking like a sieve given the recent media stories. Is there a rouge element leaking these events? Is this sanctioned by Senior Management?Great point, I started thinking the same thing, and always the same pattern, about a week later, there it is for all to see in the mainstream media....:hmm:

[teresa green]

McGrath, the only war I have been in is 89! Fella's, it goes without saying be careful what you blog, I don't have to remind you why. No names, no packdrill.

[Keg]

I know that we all like to beat up on Olivia Wirth (me included) but I don't think that she's the one to blame for these sorts of things coming to the public knowledge. Certainly I'm aware that she's made considerable effort to keep the name of the Captain with the alcohol out of the media. Apparently one of the Sunday rags was ready to run with the Captain's name (and photos of her) but Olivia managed to work some magic. Credit where it's due in this regard.

I still do wonder whether the generatlies of these is a smoke screen or not. Given how poorly they run an airline though I don't think they're good enough to run these sorts of conspiracies. What's the rule again? When there's a choice between conspiracy and stuff up the odds are it's the stuff up. :ok:

[Trent 972]

Hell is starting to freeze over when Keg starts quoting WK! :{

[flying-spike]

How do you tie the confidential reporting system to this? Crew broadcast it to an aircraft full of disgruntled pax! Then it got to the media.
Granted, they could have left out a few details but it has nothing to do with reporting culture of the organisation. It is more an indication of stressed and frustrated crew and a clash of wills.( or more likely 3 wills and 1 won't)

Your " The sky is falling" spurt is so far off the mark it is ridiculous.

[Keg]

Lol. WK claims to be an expert on many things, having invented the saying about conspiracies and stuff ups isn't one of them. :ok:

[busdriver007]

Keg,
AIPA had something to do with it as well...many favours called in to keep a lid on it...journos love a controversial story...it is best sorted with due process than story chases hounding people at home....

[Transition Layer]

HamFan,

My money is on the capt.

Not this particular Captain I'm afraid. One of the few guys in my time as an S/O that I actively tried to avoid when in a slip port.

I guess all will be revealed in time...

[gobbledock]

Forget silly flight deck arguments, bitch slaps or tanty's, I want to see some of this on the flight deck....
http://goodnightsnack.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/jamie-lynn-spears-mud-wrestling-large-msg-119874055822.jpg

Footnote: And no, this is not pornography, nor is it, well, another activity some get involved in....It is mud wrestling, legal and quite entertaining.
Great for business and it could bring in additional revenue?
(Marge and Liv need not apply)

[framer]

A simple " ahhhh mate, you're too excited to go flying today, we're going back to the terminal" from the Captain would sort out a Second Officer who was getting bent out of shape.Call it leadership or command or management, call it what you want, if conflict resolution doesn't work then axe the flight and let the SO face the consequences. If on the other hand it was the Captain getting all bent out of shape then call it a lack of leadership, command, management, whatever you want, he or she should know better.
Performance calculations are critical and any doubts need to be voiced, it's what happens after that that matters.

[Two_dogs]

http://www.lolwithme.org/?attachment_id=868http://search.babylon.com/imageres.php?iu=http://www.aaanything.net/wp-content/gallery/best-pictures-of-the-week/thumbs/thumbs_co_pilot_check_list_1_dont_touch_anythin_and_keep_you r_mouth_shut.jpg&ir=http://www.aaanything.net/40448/pictorial/funny/best-pictures-of-the-week/&ig=http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbw0zs-9tduZOGZ5ipR_IZ8QKrZ6CZoUJzrYbgNXX4w7tk_n9eMe8E9Vff&h=375&w=500&q=co++pilot+check+list&babsrc=KW_sshttp://search.babylon.com/imageres.php?iu=http://www.aaanything.net/wp-content/gallery/best-pictures-of-the-week/thumbs/thumbs_co_pilot_check_list_1_dont_touch_anythin_and_keep_you r_mouth_shut.jpg&ir=http://www.aaanything.net/40448/pictorial/funny/best-pictures-of-the-week/&ig=http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbw0zs-9tduZOGZ5ipR_IZ8QKrZ6CZoUJzrYbgNXX4w7tk_n9eMe8E9Vff&h=375&w=500&q=co++pilot+check+list&babsrc=KW_sshttp://9gag.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flightschoollist.com%2Faviation-articles%2F2010%2F09%2Fmust-see-funny-aviation-pictures-1%2Fco-pilot-checklist-funny%2F&id=40120


http://www.craized.com/photos/526.jpg

:eek:
:E

[Lookleft]

Depsite the reputation of the Captain it is probably an indication of the stress that is being felt at all levels within QF. As always there would be more to this than just a disagreement about performance numbers. Despite management stating that what happens to the business shouldn't be taken into the flight deck you would have to be less than human if what is happening at QF doesn't manifest itself somewhere along the line.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Wow, we have some real Monday morning experts on these forums. :ugh:

Any experts got a tip for the Melbourne Cup???? :E

[Capt Claret]

Any experts got a tip for the Melbourne Cup???? :E

A horse will win it. :}

[crosscutter]

Big ups to the S/O who did their job by speaking up. Regardless of what happened subsequently, it is indicative of a healthy culture resulting in what was ultimately a safe outcome....we should not forget the number of times S/O's, F/O's, Flight Engineers have saved the day. I find the tongue and cheek posts suggesting in one way or another the S/O must have been unreasonable, or plain wrong quite unfair unless you have read the unpublished reports. Perhaps the S/O was wrong but he/she did their job and that should be applauded. Likewise suggesting the Capt has a reputation and it is no surprise is ignorant. 4 professional people should have been able to sort it out and the investigation which few here will become privy to, will explain why standing down was necessary. On perhaps a side issue, I hope that if ultimately some have decided not to extend, the words industrial action have not been used in the same sentence.

[mustafagander]

I read that the issue was about "punching data into the FMS". Now the T/O calcs for DFW-BNE are a no-brainer, max figures. Except for the N1, any of us could supply the T/O data right now so I fail to see any chance of a dust up there.

Perhaps they disagreed on a planned flight path through the nearby TS right after T/O or whether to extend duty times.

[ejectx3]

Knowing the captain I'll guarantee you it was the captain 100% at fault. An extremely unpleasant individual.

[Capt Fathom]

Aren't there 2 SO's on long haul flights?

And what was the FO doing while this so called discussion was taking place?

If there were four people doing the Take Off data, surely some agreement would have taken place.

Unless of course it had nothing to do with the Take Off calcs!

[HamFan]

That's funny stuff, ex-380. Wasn't "Dog" a designation used in Australia in the old days for an FO??

What's the difference between an FMC and an SO??

You only have to punch data into an FMC once...

Speak up once to air an issue, fair enough.
Continue whining about it afterward when no one else is wading in and the capt has said his piece? Way out of line.

[pull-up-terrain]

Us QF engineers have some great stories of the Captain involved...
When i found out about this story, i thought, there is only one captain that this could be. Not much of a surprise but i was i was right when i found out who the captain was.
In my 35 year career at Qantas i have never had someone treat me so rudely.

[diddly squat]

Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck.

Knowing the age of most of the SOs in Qantas almost certainly he is Gen X, not the feared and hated Gen Y.

Yes they are frustrated little individualism advocates arnt they? :ok:

[goodonyamate]

So for all you legends saying the SO should have said his piece then shut up, what if he did so, was right, the Captain wouldnt listen, the other crew were unaware, the flight took off and there was an incident?

What would you say then?

"The SO should have spoken up, thats what they're paid too much for blah blah blah"

[ejectx3]

I think anyone who has flown with this gentleman will have a story to tell, both on and off the field.

Game of pool anyone?

I remember watching him in full lothario mode with my mouth agape unable to believe what I was witnessing.

[SOPS]

I just had to google the definition of lothario:E

[ejectx3]

That was the least litigious word I could come up with to paint a picture.
Perhaps the wrong word.

Think chris finch from the office x 1,000.

[SOPS]

Ok a question..if this Capatain who was alledgely involed with an alleged incedent, and many posts say here that he maybe (alledgely) "a little hard" to get on with

I ask...how (if this is true) as he got through line checks, sim checks, whatever???

[AQIS Boigu]

Why didn't they defuel and fly to LAX or AKL for a crew change???

[Capt Kremin]

Defueling even a small amount of fuel takes forever.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Yes far better to punch heads and create an intentional fiasco......

Bbbbbbbbzzzzzzbzbzbzbzbzzz

[pull-up-terrain]

Think chris finch from the office x 1,000.

Hahaha lol, that is probably the best way to sum this guy up.

I have come across this Cpatain numerous times over the years but i still remember coming accross this Captain when i was working up in Narita on a very hot humid day. The cabin was literally 45 degrees. All the cabin crew, the FO and the SO were absolutely pissed off at this Captain because he wouldnt turn on the airconditioning packs 38 minutes before departure because his manual said 30 minutes before departure.

[DutchRoll]

Ok a question.... he maybe (alledgely) "a little hard" to get on with

I can now confirm that too.

I ask...how (if this is true) as he got through line checks, sim checks, whatever???

You find that there is a marked change in behaviour between "on the line and no-one watching" and "in the sim being assessed". These people are not stupid. I have observed this with other individuals.

[ejectx3]

I have witnessed him screaming at a waitress for our bar snacks being delivered late, then without pausing for breath, asking her back to his hotel room. She'd have been barely 21.

[Ta4eiqwailo]

Ok a question..if this Capatain who was alledgely involed with an alleged incedent, and many posts say here that he maybe (alledgely) "a little hard" to get on with

I ask...how (if this is true) as he got through line checks, sim checks, whatever???


Easy! Inspite of all protestations to the contrary by the pompous self righteous skygods, the old boys networks and cronyism are still pretty much the mainstay of their training and check system. Very much like good old and new China! The only difference...they are much, much better in their PR and PC spin, couched in great sounding words and snake oil salesmanship;);):ok:

Helmets and hardhats on! Incoming..............

[Wally Mk2]

I was thinking the same thing 'Sops' (although not with the same spelling,am surprised the spelling Nazi's haven't picked up on that:E) How come this guy has gotten this far into his career without being called into the office for some 'uniform re-adjustment training':) Maybe he has but we are talking about QF I guess:E

'Dutch' that's very true what you say,there's two types of pilots in most airlines & they are the same person:-) The real pilot out there on the line & the Sim pilot behind closed locked doors bolted to the ground performing like a circus monkey, they are one & the same:-)
At the very least they never left the ground, the system for want of a better word worked in this case.


Wmk2

[ejectx3]

That's been a mystery that only a former CP can know. Our hero has had more stuff ups/crm issues/harrassment incidents than you could possibly dream up, yet......Teflon

[DutchRoll]

You gotta realise Wally that unfortunately in our society it often only takes the threat of "lawyering up" to make internal complaints and investigations go away......especially when some individuals can afford a really good legal rep. Things end up in the "too hard" basket and wallow there for years. Of course, mates in high places helps too.

It's really only when outside agencies get involved that the wheels start slowly turning.

[kinteafrokunta]

I have witnessed him screaming at a waitress for our bar snacks being delivered late, then without pausing for breath, asking her back to his hotel room. She'd have been barely 21.
Last edited by ejectx3; 22nd Aug 2012 at 01:06.


Yawn, this is just too common. In Africa and Asian capitals, I have often seen so many of these captains from first world airlines and oceanliners behaving like this that most of us just shrug them as modern day " conquistadors " marauding in a new guise. All politically correct protests are quickly put down and discredited by the first world controlled mainstream as well as alternative media. Maybe these are reincarnations of the hordes of Atilla.

[gobbledock]

Although the attached link is not pointing fingers, potential risks from poor CRM and anger management isssues, if that is a factor in Dallas, can be quite serious..

British European Airways Flight 548 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_548)

[blueloo]

pull-up-terrain I have come across this Cpatain numerous times over the years but i still remember coming accross this Captain when i was working up in Narita on a very hot humid day

Well it's nice of you to share your intimacy with this Captain with all of us.........:} :} :}

[gerago]

I have come across this Cpatain numerous times over the years but i still remember coming accross this Captain when i was working up in Narita on a very hot humid day. The cabin was literally 45 degrees. All the cabin crew, the FO and the SO were absolutely pissed off at this Captain because he wouldnt turn on the airconditioning packs 38 minutes before departure because his manual said 30 minutes before departure.

Wow, just like poster #5 said, very ANAL...to the nth degree, like some check airmen.

[ejectx3]

I have witnessed him screaming at a waitress for our bar snacks being delivered late, then without pausing for breath, asking her back to his hotel room. She'd have been barely 21.
Last edited by ejectx3; 22nd Aug 2012 at 01:06.


Yawn, this is just too common. In Africa and Asian capitals, I have often seen so many of these captains from first world airlines and oceanliners behaving like this that most of us just shrug them as modern day " conquistadors " marauding in a new guise. All politically correct protests are quickly put down and discredited by the first world controlled mainstream as well as alternative media. Maybe these are reincarnations of the hordes of Atilla.


Just one small question.... What are you talking about? :D

[hotnhigh]

So there was thunderstorms that delayed the departure. Would they have been able to make BNE in the allowed extended duty period anyway?
What if they couldn't have made BNE and the decision from QF was to overnight everyone in Dallas as opposed to en route in Nadi or somewhere else?
Seems all a bit too convenient.

[teresa green]

I have not the faintest Idea who this Gentleman is but have been in the airlines long enough to know there are times the airlines think stuff the investment, he/she has to go, too much drama, too much damage, too many complaints. I have personally witnessed the demise (job wise) of three Captains. Three times done in the most amazing way, no call in "your fired" nothing like that, they tried doing it by "faulting" them on a check, no joy, then they turned to things I would not mention, but suffice to say the wallopers were brought in on all occasions, and they decided to "leave" . I have my doubts that any were guilty of the charges laid, but they were not pleasant. you probably could not get away with it now, but something tells me that would not stop them trying. Its best to get on, there is no guarantee you will stay if you don't, they are quite ruthless, I have seen it.

[ejectx3]

Somehow connected = Teflon

[Mstr Caution]

Don't know who the individual is, dont care.

Should the media get a name, there's enough additional info in this thread for a interesting article.

In the meantime, the public don't know who it is or was. So the professional standing off all pilots continues to be eroded.

Until the next procedural non compliance, indiscretion, cockpit brawl, arrest or character assassination.

The once proud profession of airline pilot continues its decline.

[Slippery_Pete]

Even if the Captain was in the right, the fact that he couldn't manage the situation without it descending into a farce, says a lot about his management skills. Someone shouldn't be commanding an airliner without impeccable people management skills.

You only have to punch data into an FMC once...

Speak up once to air an issue, fair enough.
Continue whining about it afterward when no one else is wading in and the capt has said his piece? Way out of line.

Welcome to 1960's CRM with HamFan. Get real.

If it was really takeoff data related, the FO should have stepped in. If I were the FO, I would have said "I'm getting a coffee in the galley. If you two are still acting like school children rather than adult professionals by the time I get back, I'm getting off."

I've refused to get onboard with a Capt and CSM who were at each other and swearing in the crew room. Five mins later they cooled down, apologised and we boarded for a normal shift.

Seems to me the only one who did the right thing was the SO - had a concern and wanted it addressed to ensure the safety of his passengers. Spineless FO plus Captain who can't manage his crew/emotions makes for a pretty piss poor flight deck.

Wonder if the FO is getting tea & biccies too - probably should be.

[unionist1974]

And here I am thinking that all Qantas Pilots/ Captains are so impecable . Without sin , even ? Well Boys and the odd girl stop wearing red ties and start behaving like adults . Is that too much to ask for ? Grow up stop whingeing and do what you are very well paid to do , yes fly the aircraft home safely , without punching the sh*t out of each other. The ground crew have been made redundant but you guys carry on like spoilt kids.

[HF3000]

A lot of people getting stuck into S/O's on this thread.

For all you guys know that S/O saved a 747 that day.

[B772]

I assume the crew that took the a/c to DFW operated back to BNE after minimum rest; hence the 18 hour delay back to BNE.

I guess the report another crew were positioned to DFW to pick up the stranded passengers was inaccurate.

[Transition Layer]

Unless they positioned a crew from LAX. It's only a couple of hours away

[DutchRoll]

The said S/O is actually a very capable and competent operator with a lot of previous experience. And personally, IMHO, a quite decent bloke.

He is not one who would be afraid to speak up.......

Aside from being quite happy to have a beer with him any time, I'm very much looking forward to hearing his yarn! ;)

[Ollie Onion]

Doesn't matter who was right or wrong in this sort of situation. Good on the SO for speaking up if he felt something was being done incorrectly. The Captain should have enough people skills to resolve this kind of dispute one way or another. It is a bit perplexing that the other crew onboard didn't seem to become involved one way or another, if after having the initial disagreement it can't be resolved because one or the other won't accept that they are wrong then you really should contact another impartial party for their help e.g. Duty Captain etc.

To get to the point where it is a full on yelling match with one or both feeling the only resolution is to walk off the job is a major failing in the Captains handling of this situation.

Once again, good on the more junior pilot for speaking up and holding his ground he truely believed there to be a safety issue, once again it doesn't matter if he was right, his concerns should be taken seriously and addressed until all parties are happy with the safety of the operation.

[ejectx3]

^^^^^^^^

Well said

[Capt Kremin]

One of the current fleet managers, when he was an FO, "resolved" a dispute with a known difficult captain by walking off the flight deck and proceeding up the aero-bridge. It worked a treat. He only got half way before the captain realised his bluff had been called and raced after him to apologise.

[FulhamFC]

Can anyone share the initials of the S/O in a PM? Have an old friend who fits the description, and would certainly speak up in this situation if necessary, just concerned for his employment and no longer have his phone number to give him a call.

[packrat]

No one has ever died of embarrassment or for speaking up.Stupidity and arrogance have killed thousands.

[Romulus]

No one has ever died of embarrassment or for speaking up.

I have been fired several times though...

[griffin one]

Sadly by some of these posts proffesionalism seems to be the loser,Does it really matter who is right or wrong?
What matters is any flight crew/cabin crew should be able to raise a safety concern and have it addressed before flight.
Shame on he is a nice bloke/he is a pr*&k posters.you werent there.

[jetjockey696]

AFP. 21/08/12....Australia’s Qantas Airways said Tuesday it had suspended two pilots after they were reportedly involved in a heated argument in the cockpit of their Boeing 747 at Dallas airport.

The Sydney Morning Herald said the captain and second officer on the 747-400 due to make a long-haul flight to Brisbane last week were told they could not fly after disagreeing about the take-off calculations they needed to use.

“A captain and second officer have been withheld from service pending an investigation,” a Qantas spokeswoman told Agence France-Presse, without providing further details.

But Qantas said the flight was delayed by severe weather, not because of any altercation.

“Qantas flight QF8 from Dallas/Fort Worth to Brisbane on 14 August was delayed overnight as a result of severe thunderstorms in the Dallas area,” the spokeswoman said.

The flight subsequently left on August 15, reportedly after replacement pilots were brought in.

The Herald said the original pilots were close to hitting their 20-hour duty limits because of earlier weather delays, and that Qantas managers heard of their argument after bringing in the relief crew.

The incident comes just weeks after a Qantas pilot was suspended pending an investigation after she failed an alcohol test.

The pilot was removed from a passenger flight due to travel from Sydney to Brisbane just minutes before take-off over concerns she had been drinking.

Qantas has a strong reputation for safety, with the Australian flag-carrier never experiencing a fatal crash in the jet age.

Agence France-Presse

[amos2]

Is this for real!?...or have I got my dates wrong?

This is not 01/04/12...is it?

[DutchRoll]

Shame on he is a nice bloke/he is a pr*&k posters.you werent there.
OK. That's a first for me. "Shamed" for stating that someone I do know personally is a decent bloke.

I shall be far more sparing in my compliments in future. Perhaps then I can aspire to become one of these people we always talk about.

[amos2]

So is this bloke a Pri#k or a decent bloke?...I'm confused...are we all!?

[ejectx3]

Option a for capt
Option b for s/o

[YPJT]

hmmm, wonder if the CAPT is lining up as a candidate for the top job with our regulator?

[amos2]

But I thought that all Qantas pilots were considered pri#ks!?...

have I got that wrong? :p:p

[Icarus2001]

To get to the point where it is a full on yelling match

Did it get to that point? How do you know?

Doesn't matter who was right or wrong in this sort of situation. Good on the SO for speaking up if he felt something was being done incorrectly.

Sorry right and wrong does and WILL matter. How do we know that is why the SO spoke up?

Too many assumptions on here and already the propoganda is saying Capt Bad but SO good.

I think I might wait for more information.:\

[Capt Fathom]

It won't be long now! :E

[Mstr Caution]

Was sent this link this evening, don't know if it's of any relevance so caveats apply.

QF8 scheduled departure time is 21:55 LT

North Texas thunderstorm system weakening but may linger awhile | Dallas-Fort Worth Local Breaking News - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20120814-north-texas-thunderstorm-system-weakening-but-may-linger-awhile.ece)

[donpizmeov]

Six pages about a delayed flight. I don't think there will be enough bandwidth available if something serious was to happen.

The Don

[RadioSaigon]

QF pilots tripping over their ego's? Again???

Wow.

Fascinating.

:rolleyes:

[ejectx3]

With shows like Lara bingle, the shire and big brother on tv we are all resorting to Pprune.

[PLE Always]

With shows like Lara bingle, the shire and big brother on tv we are all resorting to PPRuNe.

:ok:

Perfect ejectx3, perfect..

[Checkboard]

A Second Officer arguing with a Captain is interesting. Quite a few of the Second Officers are ex-Ansett pilots with many thousands of hours before Qantas, so wouldn't necessarily be brow beaten by a Captain ... one wonders, at least.

[Capn Bloggs]

Six pages about a delayed flight. I don't think there will be enough bandwidth available if something serious was to happen.
I get it now. I thought Don was talking about the article in the Dallas morning news above.

Which reminds me...b@gger Lara, Dallas is coming back. Prune can take a back seat for a while! :}

[Kingfisher]

Would it kill a Captains ego to use a more conservative set of figures?

[Sir George Cayley]

Which bit of CRM does this fall into?

[Tommy Tilt]

This is what happens when luvvies buy 707's and are allowed to prance around pretending to be a Captain for your airline - everyone becomes a drama queen!

[FlareArmed]

It sounds like the QF Captain that took off in the B747 with the IRSs still aligning (in the mid 90s I think). The support pilots verbally objected but didn't physically stop him. They dumped a massive amount of fuel and returned. Same bloke?

[ejectx3]

It sounds like the QF Captain that took off in the B747 with the IRSs still aligning (in the mid 90s I think). The support pilots verbally objected but didn't physically stop him. They dumped a massive amount of fuel and returned. Same bloke?

Nope, different chap

[parabellum]

You know something Kingfisher?

[Anthill]

Guys, I am reading some of these posts and am agast at some of the logical falicies that have developed. Every 2nd post either refers to what a great bloke the SO is and how much of a See You Ee Tee the CA is. In either case, none of that matters.

What is significant are 2 issues: 1) How did the conflict fail to be resolved to the point that the flight was delayed? Did it escalate to the point where teamwork disintegrated? 2) Was it the case that either the SO or the CA didn't understand the SOPs? I emphasise this point because all the CRM in the world does not help you if you don't have technical competance.

I can empathise with any CA who is trying to deal with a subordinate who is sticking to his guns (a favourable trait) over an issue where they are wrong and will not be shown the truth. These people can be absolutly infuriating to deal with, especially if issues of ego come into it and they refuse to be convinced, even when presented with overwhelming evidence! -remember: what's right, not who's right.

It could well be that the CA was right and the SO wrong. It could also be the other way around. Let the facts come out. What is occuring here is that people are basing conclusions regarding the situation in accordance with a bias. To be specific the Fundumental Attributional Bias.

Attributional bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributional_bias)

I always had hoped that Pilots were smarter than this. :suspect:

[skol]

In my experience in aviation, the same names keep appearing when trouble brews.

It reminded me of a famous incident when I was a DC10 F/O in the 70's. There was an altercation between the Capt., notorious for his short fuse, and the F/E over a minor navigation indication problem. After several minutes the Capt. ordered the F/E to pull a circuit breaker, whereupon the entire area navigation system failed and was unable to be resurrected.

[theheadmaster]

Anthill, all you have to do is read posts on this forum to discover that many pilots are not very smart. ;)

I don't quite agree with your view that the opinion of how good a bloke the S/O is or that the Captain is a 'known personality' is not relevant. I do agree with your two points in the second paragraph. I believe that these issues of personality and fact/competency are related. I am sure most pilots have seen personality types that can deal with differing views and manage the flight deck environment such that all crew feel confident they can speak up if they are not happy. Such personality types tend to 'bring out the best' in people and every one feels they are working together as a team. On the contrary, some personality types turn the flight deck in to an arena to showcase their own ego, and everything turns in to a pissing contest.

Managing and dealing with conflict in the flight deck is a management skill that is required from a Captain. Dealing with a difference of opinion over a technical issue should not be a big deal (regardless of whether the other crew member is right or wrong), especially if the aircraft is on the ground.

If the 'known personality' is a F/O or S/O and the Captain has good management skills, I believe the command position of the Captain helps to settle or resolve any flight deck conflict. If the 'known personality' is the Captain, it can be extremely difficult for the remaining crew to deal with the situation. This is why there is some relevance to the situation of the personality types of the people concerned.

[Old but not bold]

This thread highlights some very interesting issues that have never been completely sorted since the introduction of CRM.
When CRM first came to pass we were told we had to take into account all of the opinions and concerns of all crew members right down to the lowest member of the cabin crew and even passengers. But listening to people is quite diiferent to taking ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. The SO and FO have every right to voice concerns and often they have saved the day but they are not in command it is the Capt who has to listen and then make the final descission based on all that has been put forward.
Also very little has been mentioned on this thread about what part Fatigue, Stress and Pressure plays when having to make difficult descissions when in command, perfectly correct descissions do not always come out well when clouded by pressure ot tiredness.
The outcome of this ongoing QF problem will be most interesting.:\

[Bleve]

Nowhere in the original article does it say what the dispute was about. We seem to have developed group think that it was about operational / CRM issues and spun off on those tangents.

But what if it was about something different, eg tour of duty limits. This flight has a tour of duty limit of 18 hours, which may be extended to 20 hours at the pilots' discretion. Thunderstorms delayed the departure, possibly pushing the ToD beyond the 18 hour limit. What if the S/O said he was not extending (which he is perfectly entitled to do) and then the CPT started bullying him to change his mind?

[skol]

Ya gotta laugh though, it's incidents like this that make aviation such an interesting career, every time you go to work there's a new series of rumours and cock-ups to catch up on.

[HF3000]

This thread highlights some very interesting issues that have never been completely sorted since the introduction of CRM.


Correct. All the CRM in the world won't save you if you are an Ar$ehole. :}

[AnthonyGA]

While arguing to the point of not being able to complete a flight hints at a smidgen of unprofessionalism, it's really impossible to draw any firm conclusions about anything without seeing a transcript of the conversation. It would certainly be interesting to see. Maybe one of the pilots had a legitimate concern, maybe they were both just stubborn … who knows? But removing them from the flight does seem prudent until things can be investigated—impossible to comment on the suspension without knowing exactly what happened in the cockpit.

[Slippery_Pete]

It could well be that the CA was right and the SO wrong

On the technical issue? Absolutely. I agree. Probably a very good chance.

But the farce *allegedly* that developed is the skipper's responsibility alone. Any captain worth a grain of salt should have the people skills to manage a difference of opinion amongst crew with absolute ease and professionalism.

It's not rocket science. It's people skills (and acting your age).

[oldhasbeen]

What the hell is a "see you ee tea"???

[theheadmaster]

What the hell is a "see you ee tea"???

That was what NT said to his brother ET when he left him on Earth. Obviously, ET's response was "see you En Tea" ;)

[maggot]

Caring Understanding Nice Type

[Denzeldude]

Pprune makes me laugh.

Well, I think this thread has gone on long enough and served its purpose.

Recommend closing it Mr Moderator. Let the name calling and blame throwing begin again when (if) a report gets released.

[Steve Zissou]

Captain Under Training :oh:

[packrat]

Captain Under Novice Training ?

[Guptar]

And we wonder why the general public think so little of pilots these days.

[Killer Loop]

Can't Understand Normal Talk

Can't Understand Normal Thinking.

[ejectx3]

Love the prune!

[LeadSled]

Nope, different chap

Ejectx3,
And he was a good bloke. A mistake like that was completely out of character.
As was what lead the QF-1 at Bangkok, and quite a few other incidents over the years.
But, they all happened.
Although probably not applicable to what happened in Dallas, do we really know ourselves, until the critical circumstance occurs.
It works both ways, twice I saw remarkable efforts (one an aeroplane saver) from a bloke most people in the company thought was a bit of a dill, "socially challenged" and a very ordinary pilot.
When the fit hit the shan, he proved to be anything but!!
Tootle pip!!

[DutchRoll]

Anthill, I'm not certain that anyone has levelled accusations that it's the Captains fault and there is no possibility that he was right and the S/O was wrong. That is entirely possible. Nor are there any accusations of criminal acts, nor breaches of CARs, nor negligence as far as I can tell.

Rather, knowing who was in charge, it is totally unsurprising to many of us that it "ended up" the way it did.

And I mean really unsurprising.

That's just the way it is, like it or not (and obviously some don't).

[teresa green]

Everybody talking in circles and innuendo's. the fact is if its your ship, you run it as so. If a crew member has a problem and brings it up with you, you discuss it with both he/she and the F/O, in a mature fashion and be open to all suggestions. A sensible conclusion is realised, and a flight deck operates as it should. You might not all totally agree, but realise the final word is the Captains. That is the mature, and capable way of running a flight deck, nothing else is acceptable. You might consider the capt is a complete ********, but he/she is still the Captain, you are not. If you consider the action of the Captain could lead to the destruction of the aircraft and the demise of both crew and passengers, then you must utter those words. you know what they are, if not put your problem into the ring and discuss it. The flight deck is for grown ups only, it requires discipline, maturity, and experience to run it properly, not biff, temper and downright hostility, that is a very dangerous environment and the PAX do not pay for that. We have all been on flight decks where there is a feeling of discord, especially after 89, but mature grown ups put their personal feelings aside and go about their business of operating a passenger aircraft and those who cannot have no business in the office, its as simple as that.

[pohm1]

That about sums it up.

P1

[theheadmaster]

People are 'talking in circles' because:

1. They do not know the full fact situation, and

2. If they know the person concerned, they know it is irresponsible to 'name names' (due in part to point 1).

Additionally, the chap appears to be one of the 'known personalities'. Every organisation has them. Even with modern CRM training, for every one that leaves an airline or a fleet, there is always appears to be another one coming up through the ranks to take their place. Discussion of how they can affect the operation is relevant, particularly when the 'known personality' is the Captain. It can be quite a difficult path to tread for a junior crew member to voice a concern when the Captain is not receptive to what can be perceived as criticism of their knowledge or operational ability. Add to the mix that in the past in Qantas, when there have been incidents that could rightly been attributed to errors by the Captain and F/O, the responsibility and blame has been passed to the S/O, rather than the responsibility flowing upward to the Captain.

[teresa green]

Yes Headmaster you are correct, its human nature that you have just described. If you feel that either the Capt or the F/O is incompetent and not up to running or working on a flight deck it is best to contact a senior captain you trust and voice your opinion. I say that from experience, to say nothing is a possible accident waiting to happen. Any Senior Capt you trust will listen to what you have to say and put out "feelers" to gage what is happening and has there been other complaints. Do not consider yourself a "dobber" or a "brown noser" but consider yourself as doing your duty as bound by your own conscience. I have had in my career many a young Captain come and tell me that X is up to sh$t, and could not run a bath much less a aircraft. You then have to decipher if there is a personal vendetta or he is telling the truth. You then speak to other senior blokes and soon get a feeling for what is going on, the next step is to talk to the CP who generally thinks up a reason to give him a check and a cup of tea, if he passes without any problem he is marked as one who is watched, if he doesn't then the appropriate action is taken. If the bloke has a "personality problem" and not a flying problem he is brought in and asked about his personal life and any problems he might have, that affect his flight deck performance and his getting on with the rest of the crew, generally this is a big wake up call and the offender tends to pull his head in, and try to be more genial. Thats how it was and I don't imagine much has changed.

[ejectx3]

In this case, said captain is for some reason a protected species from the top down. So with certain people your theory does not apply.

[stiffwing]

I believe that he was a protected species under a recent chief pilot ( long history between the two ... Pre QF )
I have heard that these generosities no longer apply, under the present regime especially after the 'pacific bomber' incident a few years back..
He will be asked to leave IMHO

[Mstr Caution]

He will be asked to leave IMHO

The way this mob works is, they bounce you back to a lower rank.

An individual must then decide what they choose to do with their career.

[Slasher]

...Many yonks ago I flew with a captain (ex-QF) who was as mad as a bloody
2-bob watch. Seemed to have a "everyone's out to screw me arse" syndrome.
He could make decisions ok but would yell at you if he made a minor trip up
and rant blue murder if you were to ever dare consider dobbing him in behind
his back to the flight dept and he had to go front 'em.

He reminded me of Bogey somewhat...

.

rUp3vhMSfZE

[LeadSled]

Folks,
What was the "Pacific Bomber"? I well remember the Bahrain Bomber.
Tootle pip!!

[ejectx3]

Think vertical speed climb mode, above optimum altitude and taking your eye off the ball....

What was Bahrain bomber?

[Trent 972]

What was Bahrain bomber?
An accurately flown Primary A/I topple!

[ejectx3]

Ha ha good description!

[Wunwing]

The Bahrain bomber was a bit more complicated than that. Part of the problem was that due to a VG to system mismatch, the A/P did not disconnect and the A/P followed the toppled VG (twice).
Wunwing

[teresa green]

In my time we had the "I am sick of waiting for the Fox Captain" and thru his RB211 into reverse on the arm. A very interesting result followed. Then we had the "I hate CC Captain especially if they had different sexual preferences to me" who sat off the arm one night because he had CC on board he did not like. The duty Captain and the Duty Engineer has a little chat with him to no avail. One got the promoted, one got fired in the most unorthodox way. I will say no more, nor the airline involved.

[Wally Mk2]

.............amazing within just a few days there has been over a 150 posts & well over 35000 views....incredible.....,hmmmm QF sure knows how to attract attention:-)
I often wonder what the rest of the Aviation world now think of our flag carrier?

You can make 10 airframes identical but you will never make 10 pilots identical despite all the CRM BS & training, just can't be done!


Wmk2

[DutchRoll]

Well, having recently obtained some updated information, I'm no longer going to comment.

Other than to say I'm still not surprised! Not even a little bit. Nor will ejectx3 or TL be either!

[SOPS]

So I assume what you are saying Dutch is that,all this actually has some substance behind it.

[Dixons Millions]

U better believe it SOP, eject 3 et al are all on the money. Very sad state of afrairs. No further comment.

[RadioSaigon]

In my time we had the "I am sick of waiting for the Fox Captain" and thru his RB211 into reverse on the arm. A very interesting result followed. Then we had the "I hate CC Captain especially if they had different sexual preferences to me" who sat off the arm one night because he had CC on board he did not like. The duty Captain and the Duty Engineer has a little chat with him to no avail. One got the promoted, one got fired in the most unorthodox way. I will say no more, nor the airline involved.
That would have to go close to the "most indecipherable post of the year" category. Congratulations. :rolleyes:

...within just a few days there has been over a 150 posts & well over 35000 views...

...and all because of a couple of uncontained ego's. What a waste of bandwidth.

[Kingfisher]

Parabellum, never gone as far as grounding a flight but it is a conversation I had many times in the past when I was in the RHS. The article I read gave me a deep sense of deja vu.

[teresa green]

Er, Radio, he tried to use one of his own engines to get off the arm. (Seriously).Stuffing the said engine. The other Captain had a personality disorder that caused him difficulty with people that batted for the other side. Any pilot that flew in the 80s/90s knows exactly who I am talking about. Yes, one was promoted, one was fired after being "set up" by the company in the most unpleasant way that involved the local constabulary. The Captain involved re not going, sat off the arm and refused to budge until certain CC were removed. Needless to say the company was not amused. Both the Duty Captain and Duty Engineer boarded and spoke to him, no luck. He claimed the CC had trashed his luggage. So we had a 747/200 sitting on the tarmac no further out than mtrs going nowhere. It was supposed to be going HNL/SFO. They called in another crew, stood him down and the aircraft did not leave till very late, after curfew time, and the pax were fairly distressed to say the least. I hope that makes it clearer. the Captain in question is now deceased.

[juliet]

No doubt he is experienced - in the role of being an SO. One of the first things you figure out as a capt is how much you didn't know about the role of the capt when employed in a different seat. This SO is about to have a lesson on the subject.

CRM techniques also involve the FO/SO understanding the correct way to question instructions, which conflicts with Gen Y conditioning to cry like a baby when dissatisfied, ignored, not placated, etc. When combined with inexperience, brazeness and youthful ignorance plus the wrong capt on the receiving end, you get a cockpit "conflict".

At least it happened on the ground. Now the SO can stand up and account for his actions. He better have his poop in one sock or the list of management capts lining up to kick his arse will be long and distinguished. Just like Slider's johnson.

My money is on the capt.

Hate to break this to you Hamfan, but many SOs have plenty of command time. They are sat in the third seat because of seniority, not because of a lack of ability or experience.

[ratpoison]

we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines- particularly the silver and orange part of the group.
Now that's some funny arrogance at it's best ol KEG.

Don't know about the 320 op, but most of the 330 silver and orange drivers are ex B747,767, 777, A330 and A340 with exceptional world wide experience with legacy world wide carriers. I would say their 'rationalisation skills' would be some what more advanced than a certain person that operates mostly domestically and to possibly less than half a dozen international ports.

As my ol grandma use to say, "it's best not to put both feet in thy mouth as it leaves thee no leg to stand on". :ugh:

[Keg]

If you're going to quote me ratpoison, how about doing it in context. The prelude to your quote is this:

if recent PPRuNe contributions are evidence though....

Ive got no doubt that JQ has lots of great operators. I just don't see their skills demonstrated here on PPRUNE. I guess though that your recent burst shows that some examples of comprehension aren't that flash either.

So thanks for proving my point...... and your Grandma's. :ok: :E

Like NOTAM, you've got a chip on your shoulder that blinds you (and many others) into an anti Qantas drivers confirmation bias that diminishes skills that I'm sure would be perfectly acceptable in most other circumstances. So quick are you to try and shoot people down that you don't realise that you've pulled the trigger with the gun firmly aimed at your own foot. :}