Flight plan filing - positioning flight

[chrispler]

Hi guys an intresting question came up and honestly I have no clue.

When filing an IFR Flightplan and I am actually conducting a Positioning Flight to pick up the customer, do I file Flight type "G" or "N". Is there a legal document that I could consult?

Thanks

[dallas]

If it's a positioner that you're clearly making for a subsequent live commercial sector it's N, especially as your customer has almost certainly paid for it as part of the price. Ditto the sector at the end to base.

I doubt you will find hard and fast rules, but the Authority will take a dim view of you positioning in as a G to evade commercial rules (like a Cat C airfield) or as a last sector to fudge FTL.

[dc9-32]

Depends.

Private = G
Commercial = N

[chrispler]

I am an commercial operator according to EU-OPS. So when flying empty, should I file "N" ?

[what next]

So when flying empty, should I file "N" ?

Yes. Unless you use the empty secors for training or check rides, in which case it would be "X".

[dallas]

I am an commercial operator according to EU-OPS. So when flying empty, should I file "N" ?
S = scheduled air service
N = non-scheduled air transport operation (ie. commercial)
G = GA
M = military
X = if none of the above

File N for any commercial legs and associated legs; G for anything else - eg. training and private flights.

[what next]

Unless in the UK everything is completely different again (wouldn't be surprised at all, even with JAR-/EU-/EASA-OPS...) an aircraft under an AOC can only be operated commercially (or for training). If you want to undertake private flights, the aircraft has to be removed from the AOC first. This can be quite an act, bureaucracy wise, especially putting it back to the AOC again. Sometimes this can be necessary, e.g. if a self flying owner holds only a PPL or the aircraft needs to be operated to airfields that do not meet the factored runway criteria. These are the only occasions where you put a "G" in the flight plan. In my part of the world at least.

Then there are countries (like for example Germany), where fuel is not taxed for commercial flights but taxed for private flying. Sometimes the refulellers will ask you to see your flight plan together with the AOC. The tax inspectors will check everything available to them, including tech log and flight plans. If they find "G"s anywhere, they will reclaim taxes for these sectors. I know for sure because I've held the position of flight ops manager for over then years, before and after JAR OPS, and I have made my (expensive) mistakes just as anybody else.

But if in doubt, don't ask the internet, but _your_ principal at _your_ supervising autority (CAA). This is one short phonecall that may save your company thousands of pounds/euros/dollars!

[FL480]

Maybe check your OM A "non revenue flight".
Even under AOC, a positionning flight could be considered as "G".
See the exact definition of a "positionning flight" in your OM (different as ferry, training, ...".
But even if G, the sector must be taken into consideration for the duties purposes.
Maybe it varies from CAA to CAA

[FlyMD]

Be careful when filing "X" for training flights. According to my authority, only flights conducted under the responsibility of a TRTO can be filed as X... or was it under an FTO????

too many rules these days... :(

[Flaymy]

... an aircraft under an AOC can only be operated commercially (or for training). If you want to undertake private flights, the aircraft has to be removed from the AOC first.Where did you hear that, What Next? Every operator I know that manages aircraft flies the owners as a private flight. I have done it myself. I know that the Authority like to see clear delineation between the two, but that it does not (and I think cannot) ban such mixed use. I even know of companies that fly charters then have the same crew fly the same aircraft privately on the same duty, into duty periods beyond AOC FTLs; I think that is rather a poor choice, but I believe it is allowed. Hmmmmm, thinking about it I did that myself on precisely one occasion - first day of my first ever AOC line training.

[FL480]

True FlyMD !

Eurocontrol says that Training Flight must be filed as "G", and in field 18 RMK/TRAINING FLIGHT FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING A LICENSE" in order to be exempted from route charges (for domestic flights)

[dc9-32]

X can be filed for non standard IFR flights such as flights with no C of A, or air tests, or systems check flights.

[what next]

Eurocontrol says that Training Flight must be filed as "G", and in field 18 RMK/TRAINING FLIGHT FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING A LICENSE" in order to be exempted from route charges (for domestic flights)

Interesting! I found that information on the Eurocontrol website too, but this must be one of the areas where national regulations overrule ICAO and Eurocontrol.
Because in Germany a very recent aic (in german & english language: http://www.dfs.de/dfs/internet_2008/module/unternehmen_dfs/deutsch/unternehmen_dfs/geschaeft/gebuehren/aic_ifr_2_12.pdf ) states that in order to pay reduced fees for training flights, an "X" is to be entered and "RMK/LIC" in field 18... (and that's how we've been doin it as long as I can remember.)

[aerobat77]

give it a G , less chances for a fancy ramp check. :ok:

in germany a flight plan is needed for international flights , VFR night or IFR operation- domestic VFR day basicly does not need any flight plan, commercial or not.

exeptions from this are commercial photographic or laserscanning flights with specially equipped aircraft from high altitudes- in this case also fill a plan with the permission number and the area you fly in the remarks , beyond this you nevertheless have to coordinate and inform the supervisor of the radar area you fly in.

another exeption are training approaches on high density airports , here you have to inform and coordinate with the app supervisor as well.

beyond this hardly anybody cares what is filled in this item- the decision if this is a private , commercial or training flight is based on other factors should it become a question of interest.

cheers !

[dc9-32]

what next

You say If you want to undertake private flights, the aircraft has to be removed from the AOC first. This can be quite an act, bureaucracy wise, especially putting it back to the AOC again.

Where does it say this officially ??

Where are the official guidelines for operating an aircraft on an AOC, but privately flown when the owner is on board ?

[His dudeness]

Where are the official guidelines for operating an aircraft on an AOC, but privately flown when the owner is on board ?

Good question.

However its like he says in our neck of woods.

His owner left 'my' operation and went to the ops where he is flying (long time ago, when JAROPS was introduced) basically because our principal said: you need to remove the airplane from the AOC and then put it back on when you want to operate "G" with a mx check.

Their principal said, you can do that routenily. (with conditions of course)

[rightbank]

give it a G , less chances for a fancy ramp check.


Or perhaps more chance if they are checking for illegal public transport.