Norwegians pilots goes to war

[paparomeodelta]

Google translation from major swedish media:

Norwegians piloter på krigsstigen - DN.SE (http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/norwegians-piloter-pa-krisstigen)

Norwegian pilots are on the warpath. They are outraged that the company hire temporary workers from overseas staffing companies. It may impair flight safety, warn Swedish pilotförening. (sw p association)

- The operators want to avoid the costs and social responsibility, says chairman Gunnar Mandahl.

The fast growing Norwegian budget airline Norwegian is subject Irish low-cost giant Ryanair at the tracks and choose to expand by hiring hire staff in low-wage countries. This will enable the company to reduce costs of salaries and other employment conditions.

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In Scandinavia, the employee is covered by a full package of laws that regulate the relationship between employer and employee in terms of including sickness, holidays, maternity leave and trade union work.

- Norwegian started with employees, but the expansion is now done by contract staff, pilots of the paper are employees of Málaga or Helsinki and may have his salary paid in tax havens like the Isle of Man and Jersey - while they are operating in Scandinavia, says Gunnar Mandahl.

This employment model has already been used for several years at Ryanair. More than half of the pilots is currently leased. When the Norwegian's management presented the staffing plan for the employees in the spring, it met with stiff resistance. The pilots are put through a strike notice in the ongoing contract negotiations.

The notice was Norwegian's CEO Bjørn Kjos consider selling its stake to 25 percent of the shares in Norwegian. It is revealed in a new book coming out in trade in Norway recently. According to Norwegian's report for the second quarter of this year, the company in the spring has lost 70 million on strikes and strike threats.

- Bjørn believes it is management's thing to formulate strategy and lead the company, not the flying personnel. In a locked position, he considered selling his ownership interest and does not drive the company forward, says Åsa Larsson, Norwegian's CIO.

She also emphasizes that Bjørn Kjos belief is that Norwegian will be one of the companies that survive in a highly competitive market.

- We will expand abroad, and in Europe we meet with companies other employment. Then we look at our costs. We do not see it as justifiable to employ anyone in the early years of a new market, says Åsa Larsson.

Weekly working hours differs substantially between low-cost carriers and other airlines. In both the Norwegian and Ryanair are allowed up to 60 hours per week and five sessions of 12 hours per week.

- Ryanair has become the great prototype of modern airlines. When an airline ticket may not cost more than SEK 400 is at the expense of staff terms and conditions. Nowadays, there is very little working time regulations. This means that fatigue increases and passenger safety at risk, says an anonymous pilot who worked many years at the Norwegian

[captplaystation]

The Norwegian Union capitulated, as Mr Kjos ( an ex solicitor in addition to being an ex Starfighter pilot ) is reputed to have proved that existing legislation did not allow a strike for the reasons given. In return the core workforce has been increased a little, but, the damage has been done & the target now appears to be the Ryanairisation of NAS. Great for the shareholders, but for the employees a catastrophic business model to aspire to.

The Swedish based pilots are employed on a Swedish contract, maybe the Swedish law is more favorable for them ?

In any case, they can possibly manage to outlaw the usage of Contractors in Swedish bases, but difficult to imagine they can do anything about the "employment" of Contractors in HEL/AGP/LPA or wherever comes next.

I believe the political landscape between Norwegian & Swedish employees involves some bad blood in the past, I hope they are able to put this behind them & concentrate on the important issues.

As a Contractor I will possibly be accused of gloating, nothing could be further from the truth, however I am mindful of the sad fact that most legislation is heavily weighted in favour of the "big money", & that ain't us, or the Unions.

[Airbubba]

Hey, if you're running short of Norwegians, you could repatriate a few from over here in the US. Even the Swedes complain about the Norwegian oversupply in the pilot market. :)

[RAT 5]

Contract on offer for B787 cruise captain based in Bangkok, €7000pm. NO accommodation or anything else. Full captain €9000 pm. In 1995 I was on contract for a medium wide body intercontinental contractor. U$9500pm AND accommodation, AND full medical insurance, AND local transport to/from work. Slave sweat shop labour is on the rise. If you take inflation into account the contract rates have crashed way below employee rates. Recent EU rates of €4000 - €7000pm with NO accommodation are derisory and an insult. Even U$9000pm in India is a joke. In 1995 the rates were comparable to employee rates of majors without the pension benefits etc. Contract rates today are pathetic compared to full time employee rates. It was always the case that contractors in most industries earned more than employees due to the lack of benefits. In aviation now the opposite is true. Less pay and still no benefits and no employment protection. Other than no job why would any self-respecting professional accept such ****e T's & C's? It's because enough do so that many of us find ourselves on the slippery slope to long tern ruin. Just think of any other professional earning €100,000pa and no pension or health insurance. That is reality in most new/young/LoCo/startup airlines.You will all retire poor. Think about it. Dodgy tax-free cash today and b****r all after 60 or 65.

[woptb]

All the fault of the free market economic system, which allows supply and demand to regulate prices & wages.
As an avowed Keynesian & closet socialist (I take the Observer on Sundays!) I don't like it.
I think it’s referred to in some quarters as a ‘market correction’.

[ManaAdaSystem]

No benefits, but I bet Thailand will be happy to let you pay taxes there. Between 30 and 40 % if I'm not mistaken.

There are some things I'm not willing to do for a 787 rating!

[Flygare]

If you have a pension from your previous employer, you can accept the lousy T&C´s offered and at the same time make it worse for your old colleagues that still works for the company paying for your pension. :=
But of course, you get to fly the brand new B787.

[Flaymy]

In Scandinavia, the employee is covered by a full package of laws that regulate the relationship between employer and employee in terms of including sickness, holidays, maternity leave and trade union work.So surely it is the idiot politicians who put these laws in place that should be the target of the pilots' anger, rather than Norwegian's management.

woptb

Reality does not ask for your approval, either in this aspect or in any other. Supply and demand does regulate prices and wages, or else prices or wages distort supply and demand.

The only alternative is price fixing, which leads inevitably to a collapse of supply (if prices are set too low) or of demand (if prices are set too high), neither of which is good for either the supplier or the potential purchaser.

This is a case of Norwegian pilots setting their price too high. Demand for them falls. They get upset by reality.

[paparomeodelta]

Bulls eye Flaymy!

[twentyyearstoolate]

All the fault of the free market economic system

There is no free market. The world is completely manipulated. Why do you think the big fish (CEO's and upwards) are earning ridiculous multiples of the average earners, far far more than 30 years ago!

Governemnts (read shadow governments) have and are soaking up all the money, leaving the rest of us to divide up the crumbs :ugh:

[Direct Bondi]

Norwegian pilots are on the warpath. They are outraged that the company hire
temporary workers from overseas staffing companies. It may impair flight safety,
warn Swedish pilotförening. (sw p association)

　
After spending a day assessing Norwegian as a possible employer, I observed that if there is any "impairing of flight safety" it is more likely to originate from those who frequent the Norwegian cafeteria offices at Fornebue, than from any contract pilot.

Norwegian flight operations seems to consist of a core group of rock-apes who spend most of their espresso day protecting and promoting their own self-importance, no doubt filtering negative information from reaching Bjorn Kjos.

The Norwegian pilot association might want to examine the loyalty of its its membership, many of whom seem to have a "close" relationship with those very rock-apes who seek to replace the lucrative remuneration of the membership with "unsafe" contract pilots. I am informed the 737 Chief Pilot was chosen for his expert knowledge of Ryanair's methods.

The Norwegian pilot union is like an old man's dick, easily aroused but no strength. It's glory days and glory-hole days are over. Earlier this year it had a perfect opportunity to stop the "Ryanisation" of Norwegian, but couldn't get it up and settled for a management blow-job instead.

Note: Norwegian did not pass MY assessment.

[dr.berzel]

Dear all,

in our business a free market will never exist. In every country I´ve been working the local pilots enjoyed kind of a protection or some advantages which were not available to foreign
drivers, regardless of their performance.

In almost every profession your gradiation result will be an important factor - for us the deciding point is: The right type - rating and some experience in the flight-log ( which can be modified... )?

The whole world turns to thinking in short terms - should we expect more by the present managements?

The only thing which can protect the deteriorating conditions of our jobs is a rising demand as it is absolutely impossible to get all pilots staying together for better contracts.

According to a survey made by Boeing in 2010, North America and Europe need to replace 39 percent of today´s pilots available during the next 10 years due to the ageing generation of the first aviation boom in the 80s. Asia needs the same amount, but almost everyone based on economic groth.. China alone needs 3500 people every year.

Maybe I´m too optimistic, but last years attempt to increase the limiting age of 65 for an ATP - license during the ICAO Meeting in Montreal sounds suspicious..

Let´s hope it will turn that way this time!

[Fullagas]

This is a case of Norwegian pilots setting their price too high. Demand for them falls. They get upset by reality.

Aha, so it's not the uber-rich consolidating more wealth by manipulating laws and industry regs? Glad you set me right. :* Those greedy pilots, shame on them...

Unless the pilot community sticks together, this situation will repeat. Real wages have been frozen, actually declined, for decades. Greedy owners, and the PFT morons who enable them, have ruined the industry. Airlines are in a race to the bottom by any measurable standard. If you want to improve your lot, you must first stick together.

[cockney steve]

Fullagas (how appropriate) As a retired small business owner, I'd suggest you look at the risk/reward profile of the airline business.

It's OK to sit there with green-eyed jealousy. but the "fat cats" of Aviation have less job-security than the staff they control, And they have the responsibility of juggling the demands of customers, staff, suppliers and Governments in order to keep the thousands of employees and their families fed and watered.

Customers: We're not in awe of the Tin Birds anymore- They're ubiquitous 21St. Century transport....sure, new shiny ones are nicer (that's why you periodically change your car/ furnishings etc. isn't it? ) We want the best bang for our buck....IE a safe ride at minimum cost.

Employees:
Sky-Gods still s*it the same as us,and the lowliest kid can join their ranks with application and aptitude....It ain't a silver-spoon club anymore. too many trainers creaming off a living, a huge oversupply of wannabe's
Get over yourselves....There are plenty of other highly-skilled, responsible carreers that pay as well or better and the competition isn't there.
(Name the last surgeon who put his xcalpel on "autopilot" for 90% of an operation. )

Suppliers: All have to meet the legislative and quality requirements of doing business...this helps determine their costs....are any making obscene profits?- NO.

Governments;
Yes, they have a regulatory role to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the customer and staff,-BUT when they dictate the minimum wage,benefits,working conditions etc. a huge administrative burden is imposed on the back of the "workers" who actually produce the organisation's end result.

For every pilot flying, there are probably another half-dozen ancilliary-workers drawing a wage out of the slf's fares.....and dont forget the jobsworth with the clipboard who ticks the boxes to prove compliance.

The simple system of "here's what I'm offering, do you want to work for me?" has gone....your employer HAS to waste money on hi-viz jackets /"security" / scanners/ ISO whatever catering checks ETC.

OK M.O'L Isn't (imho) a very nice person, but he's a bloody good businessman, stretches the legislative framework to the limit and produces a satisfactory result for punters, shareholders and governments.....most of his employees must be content....otherwise they'd be working elsewhere.

Of course, you could always raise umpty umpt milliom pounds, set up your own airline and then await the huge income and the opprobrium of your ex-colleagues..............Oh! wait!.....Didn't Mr. O'Leary do that?

[glad rag]

Name the last surgeon who put his xcalpel on "autopilot" for 90% of an operation.

True. But not really 100% fair if that 90% is enforced is it.

But that's a different argument.

[ZFT]

No benefits, but I bet Thailand will be happy to let you pay taxes there. Between 30 and 40 % if I'm not mistaken.


You'll pay 37% income tax on the income quoted. Minimal other mandatory deductions though.

[FERetd]

Cockney Steve Quote:- "(Name the last surgeon who put his xcalpel on "autopilot" for 90% of an operation. )"

Since you are so knowledgeable in medical matters, perhaps you might like to enlighten everybody as to how many times per year - every year - that your surgeon is subjected to a competency test.

And if the scalpel slips - oops - how many perish?

Isn't it fortunate that you retired as a small business owner before your business was taken over by China, or perhaps it was?

Get Real!!

[cockney steve]

Yes! I take your point, but Mr/Ms.. Surgeon only kills the punters one at a time when (s)he cocks it up :} when they are shown to be a liability, their employer or the GMC will show them the exit.

The sad fact is, the world does NOT owe anybody a living. IQ is randomly distributed, it seems...so, life's very unfair.

I spent my working life hoping to be propositioned by a rich widow-woman who'se avowed intention was to kill me with kindness...It never happened.

If you want to get into a crowded, once-elite profession, don't be surprised if the new upstarts undercut you. happens with just about every occupation.

The motor-trade once offered a good living...the fast-fit outfits / chains like Halfrauds and Mr Haynes took the mystique out of the trade and the public's perception of the value of your skills dropped dramatically. the choice was, suck it up or move on and do something else......and that's why I am skilled at running a fish and chip shop!

[woptb]

Reality does not ask for your approval, either in this aspect or in any other. Supply and demand does regulate prices and wages, or else prices or wages distort supply and demand.

The only alternative is price fixing, which leads inevitably to a collapse of supply (if prices are set too low) or of demand (if prices are set too high), neither of which is good for either the supplier or the potential purchaser.

This is a case of Norwegian pilots setting their price too high. Demand for them falls. They get upset by reality.

Sorry,thought my p1ss take wasn't that thinly veiled - I think they are overpaid :}
Better ?

[27/09]

Costs of living vary county by country. To expect workers in one country to accept wages that are based on another countries lower cost of living isn't going to provide a very harmonious situation, particularly when workers from the countries with a lower cost of living are being brought in to do the job, be it bricklaying, flying or any other job. Especially when the CEO's of the companies employing the low paid workers still accept their high cost of living salaries.

For this reason the free market economy is a load of bollocks.

Perhaps application of the free market economy to Politicians and Bureaucrats salaries by employing imported cheaper Bureaucrats etc might bring about some reality to this situation.

[FERetd]

Cockney Steve Quote:-"Yes! I take your point, but Mr/Ms.. Surgeon only kills the punters one at a time when (s)he cocks it up http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif when they are shown to be a liability, their employer or the GMC will show them the exit."

I note that when your surgeon cocks it up, he/she is still around to face the music.

I think that the post from 27/09 sums up the situation most succinctly.

Incidentally, the two fish and chip shops in my area are run by Chinese people.

Perhaps one of them might be you?

[deadcut]

Cockney Steve.... Classic mate, comparing pilots to surgeons.

[nozes]

Anyone can give an update here on the offered T&C's?
From what Ive heard they are offering for F/Os:

Basic monthly salary (guaranteed, independent of hrs flown): 3800 EUR
Housing allowance: 500 EUR
Flight pay: 800 EUR

So total of 5100 EUR/month BEFORE TAX AND SOCIAL INSURANCES. Can anyone confirm this? How much would there be left on "take home pay"?? :confused:

Also, offered bases at the moment are LPA and AGP.

How are pilots supposed to pay their taxes in this case? And social insurance, according to the new EU law this would mean them having to pay it in Spain. However, is is the contracting agency that will pay it or the pilot him/herself? Anyone knows any details about this?

It seems they are definitely trying to copy the Ryanair system....Looks like this is just the beginning of a big "Ryanairisation" of Norwegian....:yuk: