NATS confirm Ryanair with Fewest Level Busts

[Say Mach Number]

It has been confirmed by NATS that Ryanair has taken the No1 slot with fewer level busts than any other airline operating in UK airspace for the past 12 months.:D

[KingAir1978]

Was that before of after they started charging pilots for level busts?

[BOAC]

However they did it - well done.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif If that is what it might take...................

[MrHorgy]

KingAir1978 - Why don't you take your toys and go and be bitter elsewhere.

Ryanair, as questionable as they are with their working practices are still safe operators, and should be congratulated. It's nice to see something good for a change!

[Bearcat]

Good for FR....well done.

From the various FR Capts I know.....all top operators.

[Basil]

Well done ladies and gentlemen! :ok:

[antonov09]

The training department deserves credit for the millions of SOPS that they enforce.

But it works. There is the odd bad apples but by and large most of the FR drivers that I worked with were very good professionals.

[chaders]

Nice work. Is there a link to the article? I wouldn't mind a read.

[Pizza Express]

I can think of a couple of possible contributing factors. I fly Airbus and it's normal practice to remove headsets and use speakers and hand mikes, of course my airlines SOP is to do this in the cruise only, but I'm sure there is more than just the odd lapse in this procedure. From what I gather most FR guys have their own ANR Headset, this of course is worn for the whole flight and I would sujest the Audio quality to be excellent and therefore a bloody good chance of reading back the correct level. Secondly I'm told by a pall in FR that it's SOP to reduce Climb rate at 2000 and 1000 to go. Of course this is a sound thing to do and judgment of your position in relationship to others comes under airmanship. However my air line does not have a blanket rule on this other than in congested airspace to reduce vertical rate if required. If FR are doing this every time regardless of the traffic situation then they have a better chance of not triggering a TA/RA and also giving more time for controller intervention if mode S is saying the wrong thing.

Of course it could be down to luck or down to a high standard of crew operation. Any level bust that I have been involved in has been down to an ATC Loop Error. Ie reading back the wrong clearance and it not being detected by ATC, wearing fancy ANR 100% of the time might have helped.

There we go a non Ryanair bashing reply........

[Callsign Kilo]

I'll imagine the well done and congratulations memo from MOL will appear any moment on the company intranet....

On second thoughts :rolleyes:

[Capt Scribble]

It is a requirement in RVSM airspace to reduce VS to a max of 1500 ft/min and a recommendation of no more than 500ft/min for the last 1000ft. Rarely an issue in an Airbus in the climb, but quite easy to exceed in the descent. I rarely see others keeping to these limits.

[fireflybob]

From what I gather most FR guys have their own ANR Headset

Some do but certainly not most - what makes you think FR pilots can afford expensive headsets?!

I'm told by a pall in FR that it's SOP to reduce Climb rate at 2000 and 1000 to go

Only below FL200 in TMAs over the 5 years I was flying for them.

Of course it could be down to luck or down to a high standard of crew operation

As has been said previously full marks to the training system/department and line guys - without going into it here there is a strict protocol for setting/confirmation of cleared level which is taught and practised.

[The Flying Cokeman]

Will this compensate them for probably having the most mishaps going off taxi ways etc. due to slippery taxiways every winter. Or does that entitle them to be given yet another record for the fastest taxying airline :\

[Say Mach Number]

Flying Cokeman I have been in FR nearly 15 years and can only remember less than a handful of incidents of going off in wintry weather so I don't think that merits any particular booby prize or is any worse than any other operators who have gone off piste.

All if I recollect slow speed and most due to the small crappy airports we fly to who don't clear runways but just clear the top layer and put down sand or the like and tell you the braking action is good. Then having survived the touchdown you have to attempt a 180 turn as no taxiways at runway ends.

Back to black...not most the places we go.

All in all I don't think we do too bad.

Ps break the habit of a lifetime and give credit where its due.

[antonov09]

Then he/she goes and spoils it all by saying something stupid like...........I caught you speeding.:E

SOP is 10 kts on slippery surfaces and 5kts around corners. There is an OFDM. I never had an alert in my time there.

Some of you EZY guys do make me smile.

[zkdli]

This is not quite correct. Ryanair have had level busts in the last 12 months BUT there are a large number of airlines that have recorded no level busts in the same period.
I don't know where "say mach number" got his figures from but I would not have said this on PPRUNE just in case it comes back to bite him or NATS

[go around flaps15]

No figures yet. Just a well done memo today from the chief pilot stating that NATS had confirmed exactly what Say Mach Number has stated.

[WallyWumpus]

fireflybob is correct, the 2k@2togo and 1K@1togo only applies below FL200, and then ONLY if in busy TMA or congested airspace. Above FL200 there are no RYR SOPs covering rate of climb, airmanship applies. Above FL290 we are into RVSM, where 1500ft for the last 1000 is the ICAO standard adopted by Eurocontrol. Most crews, however, climb the last 1000 at 1000 through habit.

(Good) habits and better overall vertical SA is what has reduced our level busts over the last 3 yrs or so.......

[MPH]

For a company that has the amount of frequencies per dayarhat FR has, it' a credit to the airline that they have such disciplined and SOP oriented crew's. Not saying other airlines (within the EU) are not but, not many have that many flights per day as, this airline. Job well done, I would say! :D

[A and C]

This fact must get right up the noses of those who are so quick to slag off Ryanair, I don't like the business stance of the company but we must separate that from the way thay fly and maintain the aircraft..........well done guys !

[fmgc]

Well done FR.

Say Mach Number I have to take issue with your comments:

Flying Cokeman I have been in FR nearly 15 years and can only remember less than a handful of incidents of going off in wintry weather

You say that as if that is an acceptable number.

All if I recollect slow speed and most due to the small crappy airports we fly to who don't clear runways but just clear the top layer and put down sand or the like and tell you the braking action is good

So why do you fly to these airports if they are not safe? Oh yea, they are cheap!!

[Pub User]

Nice work. Is there a link to the article? I wouldn't mind a read.

Me too. I have scoured the NATS website for any information, without success.

[willfly380]

hehe ..at first i read this as Ryan Air with fewer Busts.

[zkdli]

NATS does not publish comparitve safety league tables for airlines. I think that you will find that this information came from a Ryanair source.

[Admiral346]

The least level busts?

Per sectors?

Or flight hours?

Overall?

Just a sentence - meaningless without an explanation of how it was meassured.

Never trust statistics you haven't faked yourself.

[poorjohn]

This SLF wonders how it is that the automation doesn't do a perfect job every time of 'climb and maintain' but talk of SOP'ed climb rates etc and gold stars for getting it right most of the time makes it sound like HAL can't be trusted with that chore???

[fireflybob]

This SLF wonders how it is that the automation doesn't do a perfect job every time of 'climb and maintain' but talk of SOP'ed climb rates etc and gold stars for getting it right most of the time makes it sound like HAL can't be trusted with that chore???

GIGO - Garbage in = Garbage out

Set the wrong flight level and the automation will take you there very accurately...!

[poorjohn]

GIGO - Garbage in = Garbage out

Set the wrong flight level and the automation will take you there very accurately...!Yeah, that seemed to be the favorite blame, but then there was talk about SOPs insisting on reducing RoC when nearing assigned altitude, as if leveling off the Great Aluminum Beast was a non-trivial exercise.

[Al Murdoch]

zkdli, just like they don't publish CDA statistics by airline?

Trust me, Ryanair don't praise the pilots unless they absolutely have to.

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Yeah, that seemed to be the favorite blame, but then there was talk about SOPs insisting on reducing RoC when nearing assigned altitude

Also rate of climb is set and fed to the autopilot. Gently nearing the wrong assigned altitude is also a level bust. In fact other than preventing TA/RA's I don't see what rate of climb has to do with level busts at all.

[Burpbot]

So let me get this right! NATS don't publish these league tables?
The information comes from FR management?? An industry trusted and "respected" source then :p

[Confirmation Bias]

Having flown for Ryanair until just over a year ago and now flying for a european flag carrier I can say this is no surprise:

I back up the statement that pretty much every Ryanair pilot has their own ANR headset (every captain I ever flew with)

The level off policy of reducing rate of climb to 2000fpm @ 2 to go and 1000fpm @ 1 to go worked a treat.

The SOP stating that SID stop altitudes must be in the FMC before departure contributes too.

When I compare this to my current operator's SOPs, we MUST delete all SID hard altitudes because the pilots might forget to press 'alt intervene' and level off by accident :ugh: There is no real level off policy to speak off, pilots are urged to use their common sense when in busy TMA's which works most of the time but is much less effective.

As much as I disliked being based in the :mad: of nowhere as a dodgy contractor, the whole industry could really learn something from Ryanair's SOPs

[Jet Fuel Addict]

As much as I disliked being based in the :mad: of nowhere as a dodgy contractor, the whole industry could really learn something from Ryanair's SOPs

Such as stop using common sense...

Ryanair SOP's deal with every possible situation that has happened in the past, but oh beware when you pass through the last hole of the swiss cheese model.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

I have always loathed everything Ryanai rstands for, but have to say I am quite impressed by their SOP culture that has lead to this success. Credit where it is due - well done to all and sundry.

[MPH]

Stats are not published but, individual companies will get letters on any level bust and or internal stats report if, requested.

[Algol]

I remember seeing a CAA table years ago where they published Alt Bust statistics by aircraft type. The worst culprit was the BAe146. Anyone who has flown it will understand why - the autopilot pitch/VS control is deadly.
The modern B737 has a good autopilot, I'm sure.
I'd like to see the table again now, by aircraft type.

[Admiral346]

Quite right, Algol!
As I wrote above, it is all very meaningless.
But here, nobody seems to care. the Ryanbashers bash, the supporters are happy, but what really is behind the statistics? Noone knows. SISO. The way to fool the modern, half educated news consumer.

Nic

[RTO]

Official document from NATS, or it didn't happen........

[5milesbaby]

Will it make any difference if the UK enroute radars at Swanwick have recently updated to now display, amongst others, Mode S level selected? If this level does not correlate with the level the controller has input into the computer as the assigned level, then a white deviation alert will be displayed on the radar screen underneath the data block. It is not possible to collect data to see how many level busts have now been prevented, if any, but from experience I would say that this will have aided any stats regarding level busts. The system isn't perfect (not every aircraft carries Mode S) but I would suggest that the main reasons for level busting in the enroute area now will be either equipment failure (autopilot not capturing or maintaining the correct level) or that the aircraft is being flown by hand. I realise that the London Terminal area will contain the majority of reported level busts (hence why they have had the Mode S download for much longer than enroute), but I am just highlighting how NATS have helped to reduce the amount recently.