Olympic airspace - military interceptions

[Pittsextra]

This is a little tongue in cheek but in conversation with others the conclusion is that these military interceptions might not be up to much...

Firstly the Typhoon is probably not the best weapon of choice to intercept the standard GA fare so we come to the helicopter intercept.

So the idea is they alert you and then you have to follow them, but that means that at some point they must break away from you and at which point you have the advantage. I guess putting the rotors in-between you and the guy with the gun at the side would be a first thought and then climb?

Then what happens if there are 2 or 3 of you?

Might become an Olympic sport in itself?

[Torque Tonight]

Try it. Tell us how you get on.

[Pittsextra]

oh come on - like I said tongue in cheek but perhaps there is a serious point...

I mean you average sports plane can do what 120kts, a Pitts nearer 150kts? Given a Puma isn't actually much faster i think it would make for an interesting simulation as to what they would actually do.

[AdamFrisch]

But they have to find you first.... *turns transponder off, flies smallest cross section aircraft extremely low*

[Pittsextra]

Just remind me, which GA type can outrun a bullet?

But thats the point, they don't fire first. They engage ask you to follow, then break away. After which point i'm not sure it becomes the most stable platform to shoot from...

[Torque Tonight]

Well even the old dog's egg that is the Puma could outrun, out-climb and out-maneouvre most light aircraft and don't forget that the pilots are current in close formation. Anything that could out perform the Puma would probably be viable food for Typhoon. Get past those and you still have the SAMs to deal with. I think I could guess the outcome of the simulation.

[Pittsextra]

yes I agree airpolice. Plus even if the engage with anything other than small arms fire the weapons themselves are going to do more damage than anything else. Its all very well a Typhoon fighter being used as a show of strength but really what weapon can it use inside central London without significant collateral damage?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Down here, where we're REALLY short of money, and of helicopters too, there are stories of trespassing microlights intercepted by basic trainers (Marchetti SF260). I reckon it makes good training.

And don't worry about bullets: the invoice you receive post factum is just as effective at preventing you from thinking of ever again flying. Invoices are much less expensive than bullets, too.

[AnglianAV8R]

Assuming you refer to Belgian Air Component (used to be an airforce) SF260 trainers, are you referring to microlights crossing the FIR boundary sans flight plan ?
I ask out of curiosity as the belgian authorities charge something like 80euro for transit permission.
Revenue protection?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Negative, the stories I heard were about violating active military training areas, such as EBD37.

As for the transit tax, I think you may have heard about the microlight-specific overflying tax of 87 euro's for a 30-day period; this however is meant as a "punishment" for those Belgians preferring to fly on a French (or other foreign) registration. One can find indications that this tax will not be required from genuine passers-by; one example at Aero- und Modellflugclub "Feuervogel" Bllingen/Belgium (http://www.feuervogel.be/de/02_pilotinfos/ueberfluggebuehr.html)

((yes yes, this is Belgian, did you know there's a little corner of Belgium where German is the language? A lovely field it is, too)

[EGCA]

Torque Tonight mentions the Puma which is probably the first line of defence of Atlas airspace, at least if an unknown incursion looks like a light aircraft. There was a piece on the BBC News before the games started showing the Typhoons arriving at Northolt, and also of a Puma, with chaps armed with serious looking weapons sitting in the open side doors, and producing a large hand held board with "Follow Me" thereon. Not a request to be ignored lightly!
Reminds me of an incident witnessed a couple of years ago near a local military base that has intense helio activity. Two Agusta approaching in close formation when from very low level, and "within the circle on the map" up pops a microlight, causing said helios to execute a sharp formation avoiding manoeuvre. They carried on for a short time, thought about it, and then both turned around and chased after said microlight, maybe to get his registration? Nearest I have ever come to witnessing and air to air coming together.

EGCA

[24Carrot]

One scary thought is that an unintentional, non-malicious infringer had better get the message over the radio. If they are infringing because they are "unsure of their position", they might be so busy looking at maps, gps etc, that nothing short of bullets will get their attention...

[Torque Tonight]

I think there are some intermediate steps between radio and bullets.

[patowalker]

(yes yes, this is Belgian, did you know there's a little corner of Belgium where German is the language? A lovely field it is, too)

The first time I landed at Bullingen I thought I had screwed up my nav. D reg aircraft, signs and bulletin board in German, everybody speaking German. I was relieved to find the bar prices in Belgian Francs.

As you say, a lovely airfield.

[A and C]

The step between interception and fireing live rounds will be pyrotechnic attention getters.

I suspect that the live round option would be to stop the engine on a light aircraft as this is likely to be the best option for public safety, shooting the pilot would be the last option.

I would also like to hazard a guess that RoE for shooting at a light aircraft would require authorization at a lot lower pay grade than PM.

[englishal]

I suspect it is a show of force and the missiles on top of tower blocks are actually empty tubes.

Otherwise, if one had terrorist tendancies, wouldn't it be easier to enter said tower block with a team, go to the roof and shoot the squaddies who're probably dozing in the sun, then nick their missiles and shoot down an airliner yourself?!

I am sure MI6 have thought of this which is why I bet the tubes are empty ;)

[peterh337]

Otherwise, if one had terrorist tendancies, wouldn't it be easier to enter said tower block with a team, go to the roof and shoot the squaddies who're probably dozing in the sun, then nick their missiles and shoot down an airliner yourself?!

A great idea but I wonder if the 64 virgins would be a bit of a give-away? I mean, you cannot find a virgin over 13 in the UK these days....

Those missile sites must be heavily guarded, or as you say dummies, because it would be pretty easy to do what you suggest.

[Crash one]

Otherwise, if one had terrorist tendancies, wouldn't it be easier to enter said tower block with a team, go to the roof and shoot the squaddies who're probably dozing in the sun, then nick their missiles and shoot down an airliner yourself?!

I am sure MI6 have thought of this which is why I bet the tubes are empty http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

I seem to remember an incident in NI circa 61 when a RN officer was convinced we were asleep on watch. A rifle butt across the back of his hand followed by the muzzle up his nose & the obvious sound of the bolt being cycled convinced him otherwise.
However, give it a go you may be right.

[englishal]

Luckily I don't have terroristic tendencies so won't be giving it a try;) But anyway, Virgins are over rated. Given the option between 64 virgins or a couple of dirty whores in leather and susp.....(CENSORED)...

[goldeneaglepilot]

Those missile sites must be heavily guarded, or as you say dummies, because it would be pretty easy to do what you suggest

Yep, guess they must have thought of that......

I wonder what the ROE is for such an attempt? At a guess something along similar lines as an attempted stop of a MOD motor cycle courier.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

2. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

3. Have a plan.

4. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.

5. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a "4."

7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

8. Move away from your attacker (lateral and diagonal preferred). Distance is your friend.

9. Use cover and concealment as much as possible.

10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. In ten years, nobody will remember the fight details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will remember who lived. You will get your ten minutes of fame at the public board of enquiry where they want to send you to jail for doing as ordered.

13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating your intention to shoot.


Who ever tried it might just have their day spoilt (permanently) No problems then Peter with worrying about trying to find that elusive beast - a virgin.

[peterh337]

According to press reports, the dirty whores are busy servicing the "olympic official" community having a hard time in their 5 star hotels (which is why there are all those empty seats) so you are going to be out of luck :)

GEP - I finally know your true profession. You are the scriptwriter for the next JB film :E

Great prose though :ok:

[goldeneaglepilot]

Next you will be telling us that "52 Shades of Grey" was a training manual for Olympic hospitality staff!!

PS: If it was, HOW do you get a job as an Olympic official to be pampered by "those" hospitalty staff?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Knowing my luck all the virgins would look like Anne Widdicombe:yuk:

[peterh337]

Worse than that, nowadays.

If you doubt me, pop over to Caernarfon :)

[toptobottom]

Trouble with Caernarfon is that the only virgins are either under 11 or claiming a pension. And you get ripped off on fuel prices/landing fees to see them :}

[Pilot.Lyons]

My friend is working the security (in army) and he is not best pleased.

He said they are not allowed to be out of reach from their chemical warefar masks and suits which made him brick it!

Personally i would think a smart terrorist would attack a different area whilst all eyes and most resources are at the oympics?..... Wonder if they have that in mind? Or just loving showing off to the worl with our "brilliant defence" which has been grately reduced due to our government " wasting" our money and trying to claw it back by reducing army and police! Makes no sense at all to me!