Forward yoke during flare to 'grease' !

[WindSheer]

I have read many opinions on this technique during the flare to raise the tail and the MLG enough to grease onto the runway.

Poorly timed it could be chatastrophic, so does anyone actually use this technique in large jets such as 757 etc?

Cheers..:ok:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No........

[Intruder]

Because of the orientation of the body gear and the tilt mechanism on the 747, it is indeed possible to "grease" the tires onto the runway with a timely bit of forward yoke. I can't speak for any other types.

[DBate]

That is the 'advanced landing technique' as published in the manuals for the MD11.

Doing this when not printed in your manuals... bad idea I think.

[BOAC]

As discussed on PPRune many times - works on a 737 too.

[Basil]

Just in from pub so treat post with that in mind.
I believe that this technique is most suited to rear engine jets.
Tried it once on, IIRC, a B757 and it worked - NEVER AGAIN!
The consequences of stuffing up are too great - well, for me at any rate :{

[cvg2iln]

Think of it as slightly relaxing the back pressure rather than pushing forward. Works well on a 767 when the power is kept on late with limited flare. Don't try it though if you're a landing with power off and nose high type of person.

If 411A were still with us he'd now chime in to state that it doesn't work on an L1011 due to DLC. And he'd be right.

[EW73]

For the more experienced guys on the B727-200s, I thought this technique was not unknown...

[Exaviator]

Worked well for me on Boeing 747, 727(200) and Airbus A-300(B4). More a matter of relaxing the back pressure on the control column followed by slight forward movement.

Not a matter of standard procedure for every landing, but I always knew instinctively when to use it with good results. :ok:

[angry ant]

Always did it on the B727-200, because the main wheels were so far aft, one would check close to the ground ( a wee bit of backstick, then relax the back pressure, this would bring the nose down a little, thereby reducing the downrate on the main wheels.

It took very little time to get the body attitude and flare height sorted out.

[ChrisJ800]

QF32 (A380) was landed with this technique when 40 tons over MLW, according to the interesting book by the pilot I just read.:ok:

[Telstar]

"We" had a 3.5G nosewheel landing recently. CoPilot pushed forward at 30 feet. I wonder had he been reading some old bolleaux on 'proon instead of following the FCTM?

[oceancrosser]

Works on the 757/767, a very slight forward pressure, still need to mind the nose gear - especially on the 757.

[BOAC]

I wonder had he been reading some old bolleaux on 'proon instead of following the FCTM? - i think it more likely he was just a d1ckhead.

[con-pilot]

On the 727-100, it was more of releasing some of the back pressure. On the -200, as others have posted here, more of a forward pressure should be applied. Timing was a little more important on the -200 as well.

With the -100 on short runways (5,000 feet or less) I had mostly surprisingly smooth touch downs with flaps 40. But if on speed, when you pulled the power off with flaps 40, it would stop flying right then. So you really needed to have the height above the runway nailed. Also, the sight picture out of the cockpit was different as well with flaps 40. I never landed a -200 with flaps 40. If the runway was short, we used a -100.

For some bizarre reason, I nearly always got smooth landings on relative short, narrow runway. But on runways like McDill, 14,000 feet and very wide, those landings were more in line of the typical Boeing 727 crash landing. But I never dumped the O2 masks or the life rafts. Rode with a couple of guys that did.

[Agaricus bisporus]

BOAC, as you have no knowledge of that incident or of the pilot involved it is YOU who are the d1ckhead for making that appallingly insensitive, unprofessional and ill- judged remark and I trust you will make an appropriate apology lest the poor fellow involved comes across this thread.

Telstar, you come a close second in that category for an almost equally idiotic and unprofessional post.

Shame on you both.

[Telstar]

AB,

I suppose it's easier to call people names than make a decent point. My point was that you should just follow the manufacturers guidance and not encourage others to make up or adopt alternate techniques as they end in tears. Nothing unprofessional about that. No shame felt here.

[737er]

It's more like releasing back pressure. Instead of a technique used every time consistently, its more an instinctive thing used when everything is just right. Not unsafe or dicey at all. With enough time in the airplane you will know when it's right.

Its called the "Modified Roll-on" technique.

[GlueBall]

Fatal "forward yoke" technique was amplified by the MD11 crew at NRT. :{

FEDEX Plane Crash Lands Tokyo Narita Airport 20090323 - YouTube

[MerAir80]

Hi all,

With the MD82, it works a lot. As said by someone in a previous post, it works cause the main gear is far aft the lateral axis, so that the landing rate of the main gear (and the landing) can get in contact with a lesser vertical rate.
I'm used to landing that way almost always, and by the way, it saved me from hard landing inspections several times. Obviously, this fly technic is not forbidden on MD82, and you should be careful doing that: a wrong sequence or a forward pressure applied too soon could lead to a bounced landing, a hard landing up to a crash landing as well.
Maybe it's obvious for most: the best grease effect can be had only if you touch the runway with no drift or crab (no side force on the gear structure), much more important than a low vertical rate during contact of main gear. Moreover, some aircrafts are disigned to land with crab, such as B747 (that's another story).

Just my 2 cents.



Cheers,
Luca

[BOAC]

glueball - it looks to me from that video that the a/c was on the ground when the PIO began, and it does not appear to be caused by any 'de-rotation' while airborne. Do you have different information?

[sevenstrokeroll]

this concept is well addressed in the fine book, "fly the Wing" by WEBB.

There are many things making for a grease job...indeed you can even do a grease off on takeoff.

the MD82 driver is right...side loading, drift , crab etc are all a big part of a smooth landing.

One must consider the plane involved...but also consider the runway.


Are you sloping downhill? or uphill? are there any visual illusions?

is the ''crown'' of the runway fooling your flare height?

[blind pew]

Saw it demonstrated on the Trident and eventually tried it- made some fantastic landings as the Oleo movement was measured in inches which normally meant a firm landing.
A few years later I used it all of the time on the DC 9 - 32/33F/34/51 all had different characteristics but again worked a treat. Only downside was that when the ground spoilers came out it dumped the aircraft. A few guys would have a spare hand on the lever to slow their deployment.
Never got it wrong but was asked by a young captain to stop as the late flare scared him.
The trick on the nine was to close the throttles early, trim back as you could run out of elevator especially on the 51, late heave and at the requisite moment stuff the stick forward and not forget to break the nosewheel landing (forgot that once!)...
Sadly rarely experience a decent landing as SLF nowadays.
It's about training, ability and had flying frequency so you can forget it nowadays.....

[Agaricus bisporus]

Works on a Bae146. Allows you to remove any chance of float, super accurate positioning on short runways and imperceptible touchdowns at LCY which isn't always the expected result.

[rogerg]

Did it for years on the 1-11. Works a treat.

[blind pew]

Glueball what your video post showed was what not to do on a bounced landing.
Did that on my first solo as I didn't know better nor did my instructors.
Got the masks out after a similar faux pas on the Trident - again ignorance - which was demonstrated by one of my base trainers who did same feat and buckled a Trident one.....
Nowt to do with the greaser technique..
As to LCY and the 146 - very impressive and guess you must drive for cityjet sir.

[safetypee]

Ab, it may appear to work on the 146, but please don’t do it.
The 146 differs from many aircraft in that the body angle on the approach is about the same as the flight path (at Vref ish). Thus after flaring the nose wheel is not very high above the ground, and any initial forward stick may only settle the main gear – lift reduction; further forward stick could extend the main gear and upset the squat switch logic resulting in delayed or no spoilers.
Search the AAIB records for at least two incidents involving forward stick resulting in a close inspection of the end of the runway. Now at LCY (or any airport), which would you prefer, a soft touchdown or an overrun. Even the so called ‘hard’ landings are soft in the cabin due to the excellent landing gear.
For anyone who flew 146 002 – it didn’t fly straight; this was due to a previous hard nose wheel landing – forward stick at touchdown, which creased the fuselage over the flight deck.
Read the manufacturer’s ops manual re stick position after landing.

[sevenstrokeroll]

the 146 doesn't need anything for a smooth touchdown...the gear does it all

one time I landed it so smooth, (how smooth was it), that I didnt' know we were on the ground until the ground shift/WOW allowed me to pull the throttles farther back.

[JammedStab]

the 146 doesn't need anything for a smooth touchdown...the gear does it all

one time I landed it so smooth, (how smooth was it), that I didnt' know we were on the ground until the ground shift/WOW allowed me to pull the throttles farther back.

What does pulling the throttle farther back on the ground do? Reduce idle rpm.

[sevenstrokeroll]

hi jammedstab:


the 146 has a flight idle and ground idle engine RPM...ground idle being lower...the method the designers used to protect you from going to ground idle inflight is a little sort of metal bar/stop...this stop is moved upon WOW (weight on wheels) allowing you to pull throttles farther back after touchdown.

so, I had pulled the throttles aft for landing...and suddenly I could pull them back farther...the WOW switch had activated allowing me to pull into ground idle...and because the landing was so smooth...it was how I knew we were on the ground.

the 146 has body mounted trailing link gear which is a huge help in smooth touchdowns.

[Lookleft]

I do it on the 320 when I have cut the power to early. But the caveat is it is not a forward pressure but a relaxation of the back pressure. It also worked on the SAAB 340. Then again my greasers (which are easy on the 320) could just be my command of the Force when I hear Yoda talking me through the landing.:ok: