Looking for help selecting new FTO in north-west ENGLAND (mid UK, left hand side)

[Odai]

Hello,

I am currently training with LAC Flying School at City Airport Manchester (Barton).

However, I have recently had negative experiences with them. Specifically, being lied to regarding aircraft hire rates (only lost out on about £25, but the way it was handled was apalling and I'm still totally out of pocket). I was shocked by the way the owner, Stuart, responded also, when he tried to shift the blame onto his employees and proceeded to shout me down on the phone before hanging up. Incredible, and all I can do is advise anyone to stay away from this FTO for as long as they have this kind of attitude with paying customers. It seems with this industry organisations believe they can get away with more and more due to the lack of choice available to consumers...

Also, I feel my progression is very slow. I feel that this is not as a result of lack of ability, but due to my instructor needlessly repeating certain exercises when my aptitude with them is fine. As an example, after having executed countless standard circuit joins and departures, both dual and solo, as part of various cross country flights, all of which the instructor was happy with, I was told out of the blue we'd be having yet another lesson on joins/departures specifically. I'm currently sitting at 35 hours (all with the same FTO, instructor) and feel miles off finishing the course. I don't believe the instructor himself, who is a great guy, is deliberately trying to cheat me, but simply that he underestimates my ability.

Due to these issues, I am looking to transfer ASAP to another FTO. However, I am concerned that wherever I may try I'll find people that will similarly attempt to take me for a ride. As a result, I thought I'd ask here for feedback and advice.

I have considered two options so far, Flight Academy Barton and Flight Academy Blackpool. Whilst the latter would be more expensive (about three times the distance to travel), I would benefit from being able to fly the Cirrus, which I was intending to convert to after getting my PPL anyway.

In addition, I thought it would be a good idea to ask now what exactly is required before I can actually take the PPL skills test. I have covered all the actual flight exercises for the JAA (/EASA) PPL, so I'm guessing all I have to do now is to tick all the boxes with regards to solo time requirements, the 150nm qualifier etc...?

I'd greatly appreciate any advice on this!

Thanks,

Odai.

[mrmum]

Odai, some of what I am going to write, I fear you may not particularly like, however it's written with good intentions, please try and take it constructively.However, I have recently had negative experiences with them. Specifically, being lied to regarding aircraft hire rates (only lost out on about £25, but the way it was handled was apalling and I'm still totally out of pocket). I was shocked by the way the owner, Stuart, responded also, when he tried to shift the blame onto his employees and proceeded to shout me down on the phone before hanging up. Incredible, and all I can do is advise anyone to stay away from this FTO for as long as they have this kind of attitude with paying customers. It seems with this industry organisations believe they can get away with more and more due to the lack of choice available to consumers...
If you feel you your custom is not valued and they do not treat you with decency and respect, then by all means go elsewhere. You are the customer and have the absolute right to no longer give then your business if you so choose.
I feel my progression is very slow. I feel that this is not as a result of lack of ability, but due to my instructor needlessly repeating certain exercises when my aptitude with them is fine.
I have a bit less sympathy for you with this. Unfortunately, people in general are not very good judges of their own ability. Some student pilots in particular have much too high an opinion of themselves. I obviously don't know your personal circumstances, but usually it won't be the FI genuinely underestimating the student's capability that's the problem. Looking at your previous posts, it appears you've been learning for over two years. Flying 35 hours over that timescale is unlikely to culminate in a 45 hour PPL, you are going to have to accept that I'm afraid.
having executed countless standard circuit joins and departures, both dual and solo.....all of which the instructor was happy with, I was told out of the blue we'd be having yet another lesson on joins/departures
This would seem to contradict itself, the implication being that your instructor wasn't really very happy with them previously, or do you think there's another reason?
I am looking to transfer ASAP to another FTO. However, I am concerned that wherever I may try I'll find people that will similarly attempt to take me for a ride
I won't pretend that there aren't people out there who "milk" students a bit, but you yourself say you think your instructor isn't doing that. Have you talked through your concerns with your instructor (or the CFI), as you seem to have a better relationship with him than the management. If you change school/instructor/airfield/aircraft it will have a short term negative effect as you get used to whatever is different. You may feel that's a worthwhile price in the long run though.
I have covered all the actual flight exercises for the JAA (/EASA) PPL, so I'm guessing all I have to do now is to tick all the boxes with regards to solo time requirements
I despair a bit at comments like this. Having covered all the exercises is not the same as being competent and safe. The PPL should not be a box ticking exercise on the way to 45 hours :ugh: It is meant to ensure you are equipped with the skills and knowledge to operate a light aircraft.

As to where to go now, if you are going to move schools, this was discussed a few months ago here;
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/471487-ppl-north-west-options-2.html

[Bigears]

Oi Odai, You're in the middle of the UK! :ooh:
The 'real' North-West awaits you discovering how scenic it is when you get your licence- hope things get resolved for you soon

[A and C]

I would advise caution with any of the flight academy names as the origanal owner is being chased for money by a lot of people.

Such are the problems with debt collectors mistaking the new owners for the old ones that the Flight Academy Barton which has been under new managment for some time has had to change its name to Manchester Flight Trainning.

I have done some business with MFC and have found them to be honest people who pay on time, on this basis I would recomend them.

[Odai]

Many thanks for taking the time to respond guys.


Before taking that step, it's probably a good idea to ask to see your training records. There should be some guidance of where you are, projected course completion etc.

I'm assuming you're simply referring to my logbook? This is simply what my instructor refers to (or rather, their own copy) when deciding what's next in a lesson.

The Cirrus is a high performance aircraft; it would be like trying to take your driving test in a Ferrari. Theoretically possible, but a lot more training needed than the Ford Fiesta ...


The point is that if I can fly the Cirrus at Blackpool with Blackpool's instructors, I may not have to go through the 10 hour check they specify before a new PPL can hire the Cirrus. So even if I do a few more hours and fly at a higher cost per hour, it may well be cheaper in the long run.

With regards to how much more time I'd be spending flying if I were to swap over, I have spoken to Flight Academy Barton about this specifically. They have said I'd need approximately 2 hours to get back up to speed with them. I'm guessing also with them being at the same location they would perform the same navigational exercises etc anyway?

Another thing to mention is that with both Flight Academy schools, more modern aircraft with (almost) glass cockpits are offered. I feel that now that I have had plenty of experience flying very basic and demanding (handling wise) aircraft, it would benefit me to convert to more technologically advanced aircraft.

Flying 35 hours over that timescale is unlikely to culminate in a 45 hour PPL, you are going to have to accept that I'm afraid.

I understand that, but even 45 hours is not what I am expecting, as I have taken big breaks and switched aircraft. However. at this rate, I am concerned about not being able to hit the mark before reaching 55 or even 60 hours.

This would seem to contradict itself, the implication being that your instructor wasn't really very happy with them previously, or do you think there's another reason?

I don't think that is the reason, but as I said I little idea what the reason may be. I have only ever trained with this instructor (bar one hour with another guy for a trial lesson), and as such have very little idea of the differences between instructors, things to watch out for etc... Which is why I came here to ask for another opinion. Again, I don't believe at all the instructor is trying to intentionally prolong the course, rather that there may simply be some misunderstanding.

I won't pretend that there aren't people out there who "milk" students a bit, but you yourself say you think your instructor isn't doing that. Have you talked through your concerns with your instructor (or the CFI), as you seem to have a better relationship with him than the management. If you change school/instructor/airfield/aircraft it will have a short term negative effect as you get used to whatever is different. You may feel that's a worthwhile price in the long run though.

The problem is, I don't really know anyone in this business apart from those at my (very small) current school. The only people I could really talk to are either the instructor training me at the moment, or the school's CFI. I am concerned I may get a slightly biased opinion from these sources, and thought it best to get as much outside advice as I can. If I had experience with a few instructors, schools, etc, I would probably be in a better position to judge what the problem with my training is.

I despair a bit at comments like this. Having covered all the exercises is not the same as being competent and safe. The PPL should not be a box ticking exercise on the way to 45 hours :ugh: It is meant to ensure you are equipped with the skills and knowledge to operate a light aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely. What I was trying to say was that I am trying to get a better idea of what is required of me before going for the skills test. That way, I'd be able to better compare my actual rate of progress with what it should be, and where/with whom the problem lies. It would help also if I got an idea of what other people had to do before their instructors put them in for the skills test.

For example, I know that all exercises have to be covered in addition to the solo time requirements and the QXC. However, in addition to that I do a lot of local navigation exercises, with specific attention to local procedures etc... I know this is to make sure I am up to scratch when it comes to navigating an airplane, but what I don't know is what exactly is required of me with regards to this, how many of these exercises I should be doing, the kinds of flights a prospective PPL should be tackling etc...

If I knew more about this, then I'd be in a better position to judge if my slow progression is due to my ability, or breaks, or underestimating my ability etc...

I have asked specifically my instructor regarding this, and he told me his plan of action, which essentially involved flying the school's preferred navigational exercices, navigating certain bits of local airspace, the QXC, and then the skills test. What I don't know is how this compares to what other PPLs at other schools have to do.

I would advise caution with any of the flight academy names as the origanal owner is being chased for money by a lot of people.

Are you referring also to Flight Academy Blackpool? They seemed fairly honest and open when I spoke to them yesterday.

I have done some business with MFC and have found them to be honest people who pay on time, on this basis I would recomend them.

Can I ask who you're referring to specifally when you say MFC? I've never heard the name unfortunately.

Thanks again for all the great adivce guys, I hope I haven't rambled too much and what I said makes sense.

[jayteeto]

Training records are not your logbook. Your sorties should be written up with assessment. This, in theory, should allow a new instructor to read exactly how you are doing as well as what you actually did (two very different
Things). Doing an exercise does not mean you have actually cracked it. You should ask WHY a circuit joining sortie is required and LISTEN to the reply. It does seem unusual to roster a new sortie unless there is a valid reason. If you do not get a satisfactory answer, vote with your feet.
A recent CAA prosecution did an FTO for not keeping adequate training records before a fatal helicopter accident. I believe that some data protection law means that they must allow you access to anything written about you. LAC records may be shocking reading to you............

[A and C]

First thing for you to do is go back and read very carefull my first post on this subject, there is no point in you going to a training providor who is not financially secure, I can remember some that we're taking money only hours before the doors shut for good and I'm sure that they looked good to the people who's money they took knowing that they were about to go bust within hours. Even if you don't loose any money when a place goes bust it will disrupt your training and set you back.

I can't say that the flight academy Blackpool is in this situation or not however I know that the previous owner of company's in the flight academy group is being chased by people who claim he owes them money so it is for you to do your research and see if there is smoke without fire.

As for flying what you call technologically advanced aircraft now is not the time, you are trying to run before you can walk, don't think that a lot of computer screens will make up for any lack of basic skills, when you can head off for a 100 mile flight using only a map, stopwatch & compass you will be ready for a bit of technology because then you will have the skill to dig yourself out of the hole that the failure of this kit will get you into.

What I think you need to do the most is slow down, and carefully review your situation, you are probably missing some very good advice in trying to go to quickly and you have proved this in the way you asked questioned in your last post that have already been answer in posts above.

If you want some good old fashioned northern common sense the go and speak to John D at Manchester flight training, having done business with the guy I know you will get good honest advice from him.

[A and C]

I am find it unusual to think that a student can't read his own training records, I would never write anything about a student that I was not prepared to show him, usually on the debrief I go over what I have written with the student as the record of the flight should be part of the debrief.

No student records should be secret from that student as they form part of the training he is paying for and are a vital tool for him to understand the progress of his training.

If the student can't see his records he is flying at the wrong place.

[cockney steve]

AandC,- I think he was trying to say that the OP would possibly find the truth painful .
I, Too, get the impression that this student is deluded as to his own competence-level.

To him, I'd say, by all means, go to Blackpool, dropp a couple of hundred and go play inn your dream-machine.

Either, you'll get a huge reality-check (much harder to drive a Ferrari, isn't it?)
OR the blackpool instructor will tell you that your previous FTO has been holding you back deliberately to increase their revenue.

Either way, you'll win . A friend did his initial training at blackpool and after ~a 5 year gap, completed his PPL at Barton. From what I understood, you'll like the miles of tarmac, if nothing else. :)

[BARThompson]

Odai,

I did my PPL with LAC 5 years ago. Since then I have flown with instructors from 3 other schools at Barton, including Flight Academy Barton (who I did my IMC with last year). Having been based there for several years, I know (or have friends who know) most of the instructors. Additonally, my wife, who is learning to fly, started learning with LAC and moved over to FAB, so I have first hand experience of doing this.

If you would like to talk to me about specific issues (rather than on a general basis in the forum), feel free to PM me and I will give you my mobile number and give you my take on it all.

Best regards

[Crash one]

As an example, after having executed countless standard circuit joins and departures, both dual and solo, as part of various cross country flights, all of which the instructor was happy with, I was told out of the blue we'd be having yet another lesson on joins/departures specifically.

I may well be wrong but have the instructors on here read the above? My bold. Before condemning the student as not as good as he thinks he is.
The reason I ask is I too ,a few yrs ago, did a total of 29 hours navigation ex's. Never once got lost, was never made lost by instructors, always waypoints came up as planned. No I'm not showing off, just curious.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm a fairly inexperienced instructor, but a much more experienced teacher of other stuff.

I will often tell somebody I'm teaching that I'm happy with their performance - if it's true, positive re-inforcement is a good tool. However, what I really mean is that I'm happy *for that stage of their training*.

What's written in the students records is equally important however.

Additionally with the OP - reading between the lines, he's not flown a QXC, and has few if any solo hours. He's not doing that well if he's not been sent for his QXC yet and may be misreading his instructor's positive re-inforcement.


Incidentally, the Cirrus, let's be honest, is by no means a Ferrari - it's a slightly higher performance single than the usual run of PA28s and the like. What it is is a complex computer driven cockpit, that is going to max-out an inexperienced pilot not yet fully comfortable in the airborne environment (and I really don't think that anybody with single figure solo hours could be); anybody switching in the middle of a PPL course to an aeroplane like that, as well as switching airfield, is most likely going to add some tens of hours to their learning time.

Fine if you don't mind paying for it -after all learning to fly is fun too, and in an exciting aeroplane is particularly fun, but it's not efficient way of doing it in my opinion.

I'd have suggested finishing the PPL on something with reasonable performance like an Archer, then switching after doing another 20 hours or so of non-instructed flying in something reasonably simple and familiar.

G

[A and C]

The Flight Academy Barton is no more, Exactly the same people are now trading as Manchester Flight training.

This is due to problems that have surfaced from the previous owner and is no reflection on the present FAB/MFT management or staff.

As I have said I do business with the present MFT management and find them honest and reliable people

[Odai]

Thanks again for all the helpful advice guys.

Training records are not your logbook. Your sorties should be written up with assessment. This, in theory, should allow a new instructor to read exactly how you are doing as well as what you actually did (two very different
Things).

Ah, in that case, I haven't seen them yet.

As for flying what you call technologically advanced aircraft now is not the time, you are trying to run before you can walk, don't think that a lot of computer screens will make up for any lack of basic skills, when you can head off for a 100 mile flight using only a map, stopwatch & compass you will be ready for a bit of technology because then you will have the skill to dig yourself out of the hole that the failure of this kit will get you into.


I understand what you're saying, but my desire to do this would be for the additional challenge and also to get up to speed with some of the newer technology out there while I'm learning with an instructor. So it is there as an extra as it were, I would still be relying on my "map and compass" skills, which I though was necessary for the purpose of assessment in the PPL course anyway.

I am find it unusual to think that a student can't read his own training records, I would never write anything about a student that I was not prepared to show him, usually on the debrief I go over what I have written with the student as the record of the flight should be part of the debrief.

No student records should be secret from that student as they form part of the training he is paying for and are a vital tool for him to understand the progress of his training.

If the student can't see his records he is flying at the wrong place

Just to be clear, although I've never been shown my flight training records, I've never specifically requested to see them either.

Odai,

I did my PPL with LAC 5 years ago. Since then I have flown with instructors from 3 other schools at Barton, including Flight Academy Barton (who I did my IMC with last year). Having been based there for several years, I know (or have friends who know) most of the instructors. Additonally, my wife, who is learning to fly, started learning with LAC and moved over to FAB, so I have first hand experience of doing this.

If you would like to talk to me about specific issues (rather than on a general basis in the forum), feel free to PM me and I will give you my mobile number and give you my take on it all

That'd be hugely useful, thanks! Will drop you a PM soon.

Additionally with the OP - reading between the lines, he's not flown a QXC, and has few if any solo hours. He's not doing that well if he's not been sent for his QXC yet and may be misreading his instructor's positive re-inforcement.



Out of interest, how soon would most PPLs have gone for their QXC? I have 35 hours total, of which around 3 are solo hours.


Fine if you don't mind paying for it -after all learning to fly is fun too, and in an exciting aeroplane is particularly fun, but it's not efficient way of doing it in my opinion.

I'd have suggested finishing the PPL on something with reasonable performance like an Archer, then switching after doing another 20 hours or so of non-instructed flying in something reasonably simple and familiar.

For myself, it comes down to cost as to whether I continue my PPL in the Cirrus. I've double checked with FAB, and they've confirmed that if I do the rest of my PPL in the Cirrus, I won't need the 10 hour checkout needed otherwise. So if I need less than 10 hours to get accustomed to handling the Cirrus and continue with my PPL, then it should come out about the same price as any other plane altogether.

At the moment, I think I'll possibly be transferring to either MFT or FAB. If it turns out continuing in the Cirrus is cheaper in the long run, it'd be the latter - otherwise, the former.

The best help for me I think at the moment would be feedback on what a typical PPLs course of training would look like. As I explained in my previous post, I have really very little perspective on what is normal for a PPL at this stage in training. Is it simply the case that an instructor will cover all the flight exercises until satisfied with the student's performance, and then continue to repeating various navigational exercises until satisfied the student is a capable navigator, before sending them off for the QXC and ultimately the skills test?

I would again greatly appreciate any advice you may have.

Thanks

Odai.

[goldeneaglepilot]

With regards moving school, a worthwhile question is with regards the financial viability of any school and the obvious question has to be is if its going to be there for the duration of the flight training.

In my own business we tend to check out any new supplier of services to us for exactly the same reasons. It's expensive and disruptive if things have to be changed due to financial issues with the company supplying the services. Also, in my experience if the company is under great financial pressure then they may not be putting as much concentration into supplying you the service you are paying for as they might if they had no headaches or worries due to financial problems.

The internet is a great tool to do some simple background checks. If its a limited company in the UK then its worth looking at the company with its public records. I have found this site to be excellent for initial checks (it free): Company Check (http://companycheck.co.uk/)

A quick check will show you who the directors and shareholders are and the last reported state of the finances. It's always worth looking at what other companies the directors are involved with and how successful those companies are. If only one in a portfolio is struggling, there may be genuine reasons. However a portfolio of companies in similar financial distress should ring alarm bells.

Another important consideration is the trend of the financial position, is it getting better or worse, year by year?

If the company is in financial trouble try to evaluate if it's practical for it to recover. As a rough example with a flying school, take a rough profit figure of £50 per hour flown as the profit it might expect (in reality its probably going to be less). You have to take it account factors such as staff costs, maintenence, insurance, fuel buildings etc.

Times that £50 per hour by a realistic average number of hours use per day per aeroplane (including an estimation for non flying days due to weather etc) perhaps a realistic (generous) figure would be 4 hours flying per day per aircraft if the club has two aircraft or 3 hours flying per day if 4 aircraft. So in the case of 4 aircraft let's say 12 hours per day flying average income = £600 per day profit.

If the club is to survive multiply that by 350 (holidays etc deducted) and see an annual income (very generous calculation without more detailed costings from the actual club) That would give a profit of approximatly £210000 in a year. Frankly if the negative balance on a clubs previous annual return exceeded the "best hope" figure above then I for one would be seriously considering going to another club or school.

I quote below an example of a company that I would expect to possibly be considering bankruptcy / liquidation as a way forward:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa438/dh12554/FAB.jpg

Company Check - Free company financial check on FLIGHT ACADEMY BLACKPOOL LTD. Free company accounts. Companies House information (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06060865)

One thing which LAC Barton does have in its favour against FAB is the positive bank account balance and good signs of financial strength and growth year by year. Stuart C may not have been the nicest person in the world on the phone to Odai, but what his financial reports suggests is that he is doing something right in the way he manages his flying school, as its not only making a profit but its also growing (in financial strength) year by year.

MFT have obviously inherited a lot of rubbish when they purchased the old company (HENCE THE CHANGE OF TRADING NAME), but early signs are they are doing well and moving forward financially.

[A and C]

Financial accounting is a very interesting blak art with companies seeming to trade untill the liquid money runs out despite being worth less than nothing.

However it all depends on the ability of the company to manage the assets and how those assets are written down for the reasons of normal accounting for tax purposes.

For instance an aircraft might have its asset value written down over the years but it has been fitted with a new engine or avionics that will boost it's ability to generate income.

Indeed if I was to take the information on this website at face value I would not trade with my own company !! Websites like this have some value but I would think that the ability and willingness to pay creditors for services is of far more value in deciding if a company will stand the test of time

[goldeneaglepilot]

A&C - good point, but there are a few markers that do show the way a company is going - bad indication is a reduction year in year out of total assett value (that could be tax write off so on its own is not bad) but couple that with a decrease of company net worth and an increase in the amount outstanding each year to creditors should start to ring alarm bells. Its the trends that matter most, especially across a portfolio of companies held by the same person.

To show by way of example this is the published accounts for another flying school for a similar period, compare one to the other and its easy to see which company is doing the best and all being equal likely to survive

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa438/dh12554/LAC.jpg

[Retired Redcap]

I trained with LAC in 2007. I still fly with them.I would be happy to respond to any points if you would like to PM me.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Just do what i did and learn with the cfi... Then you know that when he sends you, you are ready.

I did and passed in 45 hours ten mins

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

LAC's CFI is the best instructor in the business that I've come across. He is an aviator through and through, immensly experienced and can teach and put over that experience very effectively (not all can do that). He is very highly rated and respected by everyone I've spoken to who have had the pleasure and reaped the rewards of flying with him. He taught me aeros in our Chippy, and did my conversion to the Yak52. I also always try to book him for my biennial hour with an instructor. He isn't easy to book as his diary fills up fast!

I did my PPL back in '78 at the original LAC in little longer than the minimum time. I've no direct experience of the present LAC flying school so can't comment on any aspect other than their excellent CFI who I have known for many years.

My advice is talk to him. What he tells you you can take as absolutely the truth. If you are trying to run before you can walk, he'll tell you that; if not, he'll tell you that, too, and sort out your problems with your training. But please DO beleive what he tells you even if you don't like it!

Do that before you dash off to another school and another type of aeroplane unless time and money are no object in getting your PPL.

[Shaft109]

I can only agree with SSD.

LAC's CFI MR speaks the truth - warts and all - about your abilities and weaknesses.

It may not be comfortable to hear but he is absolutely spot on. He was with me and as I near the end of the CPL I have a lot to thank him for.

[Odai]

Thanks once again for the advice, and apologies for taking so long to respond, I am currently away.

Goldeneaglepilot, any chance you have a link to MFT's page on Company Check? You referred to them but I can't find it on the site, the name change must have confused things.

Also, I am wondering how relevant an FTO's financial state is to my specific situation. Assuming I can get through whats left on my course in a couple of months, and considering the fact that I've never (and never will) pay in advance for lessons, is there really much risk considering I won't be training for much longer anyways?

I trained with LAC in 2007. I still fly with them.I would be happy to respond to any points if you would like to PM me.

My main reason for wanting to switch is my experience with LAC back in July. I'm still pretty miffed at the dishonesty, the fact that a slip on their behalf has left myself out of pocket rather than the company at fault, and also the manner in which the management handled the whole thing.

However, at the moment, it seems that switching for the remainder of my PPL soley for this reason will leave me a couple hundred pounds more out of pocket (most alternate FTOs I spoke to suggested roughly another two hours training needed to get back up to speed with a new instructor), so assuming there really is no problem with my training and that I'd therefore get the same result at a hypothetical alternate FTO, then I guess I'll have to swallow my pride for now and simply hire from a different club when I'm finished with my PPL. I get on well with my instructor anyways, which I guess is considerably more important.

For now, I think my plan is to speak to my instructor again (and maybe the CFI, as suggested) when I'm back, possibly post here again, and figure out from there whether it would be worth a transfer to another FTO.