IR

[Flipski10]

Hi guys

Got a quick question! My ambition is to be an instructor because i want to instruct! Im not in it to build hours etc etc! At the moment i am PPL with about 190 hours TT, IMC and Aeros! I would like to make a living out of it but i am aware that the wages/salary are not the best for PPL instructing! My question however is how imperative do you think it is to have a full IR to be able to at least attempt to make a living from instructing! In other words do i hold back on the FI course for a couple of years to save enough to do the IR or is it not really advantageous in the instructing world! I am starting my CPL very soon!

Thanks

[Duchess_Driver]

Not required at all for PPL instructing.

The rules for IRI are about to change so you'll need much more experience before becoming an instrument instructor - there is a lot of talk about where they will find IRI's from in the future with the pre-reqs they're laying down.

For bog standard PPL/night/aeros instruction the IR is a nice to have, but not a necessity in any way. It may open up your options a bit in terms of some of the safety pilot stuff that pops up - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

My recommendation - CPL, FI, experience, IR, experience, IRI. May take a few years....

HTH
DD

[Flipski10]

Thanks for the reply DD! Its much appreciated! I do have one other question though! Having completed all 14 ATPL exams and assuming i pass the CPL and FI courses, i am led to believe the exams are only valid for 3 years from the date of the last exam! Therefore, if i decided to do the FI course before IR and the three years lapse, do i have to sit all 14 exams again for the IR or do i have to sit just a selection of these exams or is there a specific IR ground exam?? Sorry if its a stupid question but i am at the crossroads where i have to decide the route to take and not having unlimited funds i want to make sure i take the more appropriate route!

Thanks again

[RTN11]

If you only wish to be an instructor why even do CPL? It's no longer required, under EASA you can be paid as an instructor with PPL and CPL groundschool.


If you have your heart set on doing a CPL, do the ATPL groundschool then as you say you have 36 months from the last month you took an exam to get both CPL and IR. If you don't meet this requirement you will have to retake all of the exams.

You certainly don't need an IR, and at many airfields it would be no help at all unless you are flying suitably equipped aircraft and have approaches available. The main benefit is that you can fly "VFR on top" to teach simple lessons like straight and level, climbing, stalling etc which otherwise would not be possible with a lowish cloudbase, and still be able to get back down afterwards.

I instructed for two years before I did my IR, that was my original plan and it worked very well. By the time I did the IR I had around 1000 hours and it made the course so much easier.

[Flipski10]

Thanks for the reply RTN! I want to do the CPL for a variety of reasons! One for my own credibility and also because i would like to have the option to potentially teach CPL in the future! My predicament is i have already passed my ATPL exams and the clock is now ticking for me to get in a CPL course and an IR course before the three year point! Im already 6 months in! So do i sacrifice the IR completely and just go straight to the FI after my CPL or would doing that really limit me as an instructor? From what you have said and DD it appears having an IR wouldnt be as advantageous as i thought!

Thanks again

[dobbin1]

Thanks for the reply RTN! I want to do the CPL for a variety of reasons! One for my own credibility and also because i would like to have the option to potentially teach CPL in the future! ............

I can't see anything in CAP 804 that prevents a PPL FI(A) from instructing for the issue of a CPL.

"FCL.905.FI FI – Privileges and conditions
The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
(a) a PPL, SPL, BPL and LAPL in the appropriate aircraft category;
(b) class and type ratings for single-pilot, single-engine aircraft, except for singlepilot high performance complex aeroplanes; class and group extensions for balloons and class extensions for sailplanes;
(c) type ratings for single or multi-pilot airship;
(d) a CPL in the appropriate aircraft category, provided that the FI has completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot on that aircraft category, including at least
200 hours of flight instruction;"

Am I missing something?

[Whopity]

I can't see anything in CAP 804 that prevents a PPL FI(A) from instructing for the issue of a CPL. Then you should try looking in the authoritative documentFCL.915 General prerequisites and requirements for instructors
(b) Additional requirements for instructors providing flight instruction in aircraft. An applicant for or the holder of an instructor certificate with privileges to conduct flight instruction in an aircraft shall:
(1) hold at least the licence and, where relevant, the rating for which flight instruction is to be given;

[BEagle]

Quite so, Whopity!

Incidentally, the CAA have confirmed that this does not mean that, if you are a PPL/FI with ME instructional privileges, you need to hold a CPL if you wish to conduct ME instruction for a CPL holder.

[mad_jock]

That doesn't make sense

So you can do your MEP as a PPL with a PPL/MEP instructor. Not that there will be many of them about.

Then the next week you do your CPL in a single and then get the whole lot issued at once. CPL/SEP/MEP

Or you can do the CPL first then MEP but then the instructor has to be CPL. The license at the end is the same. CPL with SEP and MEP class ratings.

And to be honest most get MEP and IR training is done on a PPL and then apply for the whole lot in one go because it saves a heap of dosh.

[mad_jock]

Actually does that mean if I were to want to do a TMG/Sea Plane rating I would have to get an ATPL holder instructor with relevant instructor rating if I am a ATPL holder?

[BEagle]

No, that's exactly what it does NOT mean....

If you hold an ATPL and wish to obtain an SEP(Sea) Class Rating, your FI(A) needs to hold seaplane instructional privileges. Whether or not he/she holds a PPL, CPL or ATPL is immaterial.

[mad_jock]

Ok so its only for licenses not ratings?

[S-Works]

Ok so its only for licenses not ratings?

Yep, and is the highest licence that you can be taught for is a CPL then a CPL is only ever going to be needed. It effectively means that the only course that requires the Instructor to hold a CPL for will be the CPL training itself. Everything else can be taught by a PPL Instructor who can also be remunerated.

Sound familiar?

[Flipski10]

Thanks for all the input guys! The CPL course is not really the issue for me though as i have decided that is definately on my agenda! My issue is IR? Do i or do i not do the IR before the FI! From your wealth of experiences im just seeking advice on that as i can see both pros and cons!

Thanks again

[S-Works]

Unless you want to repeat the exams then do the IR. Especially as your options for work as an FI are very limited. At least the IR will be of value.

[Whopity]

My issue is IR? Do i or do i not do the IR before the FI! From your wealth of experiences im just seeking advice on that as i can see both pros and cons!The issue is largely resolved by which exams you take. If you do CPL exams then you can leave the IR, but if you do ATPL exams, you have 3 years to do both the CPL and IR if you don't want to have top resit the exams.

[Flipski10]

Thanks for the responses again! Yeah i have already done the ATPL exams so i guess i have already made my bed as such! Im getting the idea that whilst the IR may not be beneficial in any immediate instructing positions it would open or potentially open more doors for me and would clearly make me a more rounded pilot! Thanks for all the responses as it has been a help! I think im pretty much decided to hold off on the FI and get the IR done sooner so as not to repeat exams!

[RTN11]

You still have two and a half years, so there's time yet for your IR. With IMC rating and some aeros experience, that would put you above the typical fresh out of school FI, and may help you secure a job. You could even get the Aerobatics restriction removed from your rating straight away and that would definitely appeal to some schools. Also your age might be in your advantage, as a lot of schools are full of guys in their early 20s, it's always good to balance that out.

So if it were me (and once upon a time it was) I would do CPL - FI - work for another year - 18 months and then think about the IR. If you then find yourself instructing at a school which offers the IR you may then get a discount, or be able to fit the training around your instructing.

[Flipski10]

RTN thanks again for the reply! Something definately worth thinking about there! I think ultimately it comes down to time and money! If i can get in a CPL course and an FI course certainly within the next 12 months and pass them both that would leave me 18 months to do the IR which would be my preffered option! But if i couldnt get that FI course in, money dependant, then i will have to go to IR before FI so its done before the 3 year point! However, from what you guys have said, if it all goes wrong and i dont get the IR course done in time, then its not a big disaster for the instructing world!

[S-Works]

So if it were me (and once upon a time it was) I would do CPL - FI - work for another year - 18 months and then think about the IR. If you then find yourself instructing at a school which offers the IR you may then get a discount, or be able to fit the training around your instructing.

Around 98% of the FI's that I know who did that now do not have an IR because they left it so late they were either not a position to start or just ran out of time before the exams.

The FI in the current market is little use to you. The IR will improve your skills and then you can do the FI at your leisure.....

[RTN11]

Around 98% of the FI's that I know who did that now do not have an IR because they left it so late

Well, for me around 80% of the FIs I know who did this got the IR in time (myself included)

The FI in the current market is little use to you

I don't know any FIs currently out of work, the people who I see qualifying are getting jobs within four weeks of rating issue. There will never be a good time to get an FI rating, but this is what the OP ultimately wants to do so why not unlock that door immediately?

[mad_jock]

Its quite a common way to do it up North.

Some schools prefer no IR because they know the instructor isn't going to leg it the first sniff of a job.

[mrmum]

Tell me about it.:sad: Anybody know a nice PPL with CPL TK, FI & IMCr (oh, and ideally glass, TW and aero's) who's looking for a job?;)

[dobbin1]

Then you should try looking in the authoritative document
Quote:
FCL.915 General prerequisites and requirements for instructors
(b) Additional requirements for instructors providing flight instruction in aircraft. An applicant for or the holder of an instructor certificate with privileges to conduct flight instruction in an aircraft shall:
(1) hold at least the licence and, where relevant, the rating for which flight instruction is to be given;


Thanks - that is what I missed.

Next question. If you have a CPL, but downgrade (or are downgraded) to a class 2 medical, can you still instruct for the CPL?

[Whopity]

No, because you must hold at least the licence for which you are instructing. i.e. to be valid you must have the relevant medical.

[chester2005]

that depends on whether the class 1 is downgraded to a class 1 OML which is the same as a class 2
with a class 1 OML you can instruct for CPL
Chester:ok: