Sun Wing Intercept

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning All:

Received his as an email from a friend of mine the first comments are not mine.

For those who fly IFR from time to time hand offs get missed so keep number 2 VHF on guard at all timees to ssave the trouble of not remembering the hand/aircraft signals used for intercept.




The airline Sunwing is wet leasing B-767's with crews from Germany.
The Canadian Govt. has approved the use of up to 200 pilots to work in Canada. Sunwing was able to convince
The Canada Immigration Dept that no other Canadian pilots were available. There are lots of pilots in Canada who would/could fill these positions.
Apparently these German pilots are paid peanuts & have LOW time experience.

Incident: Sunwing B763 near Quebec City on Jul 16th 2012, loss comm prompts intercept by fighter aircraft

By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Jul 17th 2012 15:13Z, last updated Tuesday, Jul 17th 2012 15:13ZA Sunwing Boeing 767-300, registration CS-TFS performing flight WG-221 from Paris Orly (France) to Toronto,ON (Canada) with 303 people on board, was enroute at FL350 near Quebec City,QC (Canada) at about 13:50L (17:50Z) when two CF-18 fighter aircraft, dispatched by NORAD as result of the aircraft not communicating with Air Traffic Control, intercepted the aircraft. The Boeing crew subsequently established contact with air traffic control and continued to Toronto for a safe landing about 70 minutes later.
NORAD reported a Boeing 767-300 flying on a transatlantic route from Paris to Toronto was intercepted near Quebec City at about 13:50 EDT, due to regulations they were not permitted to name the airline or state how long radio contact had been lost.
FlightAware > Sunwing (WG) #221 > 16-Jul-2012 > LFPO / ORY - CYYZ Flight Tracker (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWG221/history/20120716/1035Z/LFPO/CYYZ)

[Left Coaster]

I see several attempts have been made by interested parties to get the current govt in Canadia to address this obvious flaunting of the labour and immigration regs and use of foreign pilots. Not working too well it seems. I wonder if the Canadian travelling public were to be made aware that the standard of safety and level of professionalism they thought they were getting is actually of zero concern to Transport Canada and the Harper government and on a par with a few third world countries we are familiar with?

[Dct_Mopas]

Left coaster, a pretty damning post. Absolutely attention should be drawn towards any disregard of local labour laws. However this could happen to any of us for any reason with the right set of circumstances and has little to do with experience or nationality. Germans can be the most attentive and precise people you could hope to meet, and in fact inexperienced pilots can often notice bad scenarios as they are in a new environment and so are even more alert. Never say never . . .

[Left Coaster]

It has absolutely nothing to do with the nationality of the crew operating the aircraft in question (your notes indicate the crew was German...I hear otherwise...) however, it has plenty to do with the ability to safely operate in Canadian airspace with Sunwing call signs, and effectively bypassing Transport Canada Ops Specs...so please leave the nationality out of this...facts are clear, this crew was out of touch with ATC for a serious length of time and were intercepted...not an everyday occurrence...The company they work for and Sunwing are responsible for ensuring the safety of their passengers and crew...can you confirm they are? I can't, and won't be surprised if there are more incidents in the future. So yes it is a rather damning statement, and it's shameful that (and Canjet) and the Harper govt could care less!

[lilflyboy262...2]

Because Canadian pilots don't make mistakes either.
Much better than those Germans thats for sure! (Although I heard Portuguese).

[R8TED THRUST]

For the record CS- is Portuguese Reg,
as is Euro Atlantic.

[Denti]

In this case certainly not a german crew. Germans (well, employees of german airlines, quite a few of which are in fact canadian citizens) are flying for sunwings, however only during the winter season as they are sorely needed at home during the summer. None of them on 767s.

[Married a Canadian]

ability to safely operate in Canadian airspace with Sunwing call signs, and effectively bypassing Transport Canada Ops Specs

Left coaster...I read the Canada forum and know you are an intelligent poster but I have to say a statement like this HAS to have some evidence to back it up and not just supposition and the usual Sunwing foreign pilot debate.

If they have been certified safe to fly in Canadian airspace then they have been certified SAFE to fly. It doesn't do any credit to the system in place for people to suggest otherwise because the evidence does not point to them flying unsafe aircraft or having incompetent crews.
If you believe they are or do based on this one unfortunate (and stupid from the pilot perspective) incident...then come and plug in to YYZ terminal on a daily basis and watch in amazement at the professional aviation community and their "no mistakes" day and the basics being adhered to in Canadian airspace. Air traffic control included.

This incident was most definitely unfortunate...but no more than that. If you believe it to be more so than you have to explain the NorthWest one a couple of years ago when the pilots were supposedly talking over crewing schedules for a couple of hours instead of talking to ATC (whilst in US airspace). Do/Did Northwest fall into the "dodgy airline" category that you put Sunwing into...or was that different (North American crews and all that).

[Married a Canadian]

I can't, and won't be surprised if there are more incidents in the future

They are always late....it has to be said. ;)

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Evening All:

I got this email which I would like some help on.

Are the working conditions and wages mentioned here correct?

Does anyone have any more information on who this company is?

Thanks

I´ve spend some time now investigating into possible informations about the "mother lease" - Euro Atlantic Airways. However, couldn´t find about the crews nationality.
But some interesting facts came to light.
When recruiting flight deck crews for B 757 and B 767 as little as 500 flying hours a F/O candidate had to show and a Captain 2000 h !! I believe that already says a lot, since these are not type related flying hours, just general collected !!
The working rules are factual 24/7 callable and ready to go to any destination in the world instantly !!! . Payment is per hour flown and per diem an F/O earns 50 Euro extra and a Cpt. 180 Euro. A F/O basic payment is 1500 Euro after tax and advanced will be 1800 to 2000 Euro / month. A Captain has basic 3500 after tax and up to 5000 Euro in top payroll. This little money payed says it all!! I am sure no high qualified pilot will work under such conditions.
I have found quite a bunch of passenger /customer comments about Euro Atlantic and Sunwings. To no big surprise 95 % or more are just crashing negative !!
Once again, someone in Canada should have a close look into that Sunwing or CanJet business and also into the aircraft status and crew qualifications.

[Married a Canadian]

I have found quite a bunch of passenger /customer comments about Euro Atlantic and Sunwings. To no big surprise 95 % or more are just crashing negative !!
Once again, someone in Canada should have a close look into that Sunwing or CanJet business and also into the aircraft status and crew qualifications

Ok....I can't comment on crew qualifications....it is up to the pilot community to decide on that one.
However just a very basic internet search brings up the various aviation worldwide blacklists

EU Blacklisted airlines – Air Valid® (http://www.air-valid.co.uk/airlines-blacklisted.html)
1001 Crash - Airlines Black List (http://www.1001crash.com/index-page-liste_noire-lg-2.html)

Neither Sunwing or Euroatlantic airways appears on those two. The question I pose is that if you disagree with the process that goes into compiling these blacklists...then do you believe that they are flawed as there are airlines that SHOULD be on them. Does Sunwing/Euroatlantic fall into that category in this discussion.
Saying "someone in Canada should have a look into this". Someone in Canada does look into this...but they say that Sunwing/Euro are safe to fly in Canadian airspace. Now does that cause problems because people genuinely believe that there is a safety issue...or is it because of the rather heated issue regarding the employment policies and pilot hiring and current optics after this unfortunate incident.

BTW The bad customer service and bad reviews that Sunwing receive on their long haul flights are a separate issue that isn't related to this topic. People will eventually not fly with them if they are that bad. That goes with every airline out there though and is not unique to this carrier.

[Mr.Noisy]

Actually this does get more interesting and scary....

Speaking with some friends who are Sunwing pilots.... When conducting some of the Canadian PPC's on their contract pilots, crews were actually crashing the sim while performing steep turns. These failed PPC's left Sunwing short Captains & First Officers for their busy winter months.

Conclusion- Sunwing wet leases 737's from the same place these pilots were sent back too. These same pilots that just failed the Canadian PPC then come back to Canada with their own aircraft and only operate a specific route, YYZ- Dominican- YYZ.... :D

[rbaiapinto]

Everybody speaks about the crew, but to communicate there are two in the equation. What about the other end of the radio?

Apparently, there was a missed communication about changing frequencies. The crew probably did not get the freq. change. Next thing they knew were two fighters around them.:cool:

[single chime]

Pinto,

from the OCA boundary to Quebec City is about 800 nm, perhaps 90 min. It seems the crew never cared to contact anyone at landfall. It's a bit rich to put the blame on the controllers...

[rbaiapinto]

Like any other air incident/accident, there is always more than one reason to happen!

[Married a Canadian]

Like any other air incident/accident, there is always more than one reason to happen!

True...but from an ATC perspective I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the controllers just sat and watched for 800 miles. We do have ways to try and regain communications...but they are dependant on the pilot trying to call somebody...anybody. No contact with ATC over land for 90 odd mins...the controller would have been trying...I can guarantee that.

[Left Coaster]

Thanks for the comment...I try!( but not always well.) My idea was to put out for debate, the issue covered in other posts on another site, as well as this one, the fact that a number of TC PPC failures have taken place in the attempt to use foreign pilots from these companies. The irony is it's now apparent that they may have failed for a good reason. Experience levels indicated by posters with an intererest suggest that a few of the crews now operating under foreign Ops Specs are of a less than acceptable level. At least when compared to TC standards. Not all, but a notable few...sadly, the senior members at TC and the Harper Govt seem happy to accept these levels. I have enough experience with senior TC (705) managers to understand the politics of the positions, and don't believe anything constructive will be done until a serious incident forces them to make a move. (Just sayin...!:oh:)

[J.O.]

Do enlighten us as to what rules or standards TC would use to refuse the foreign carriers their ops specs on the basis of one of their pilots failing a Canadian PPC.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Left Coaster.

These guys have a licence that lets them fly anywhere in the world on an aircraft of that countries registration. When they are not working for sunwing, what do you think they do?

With the fuss that you are making over this, are you saying that any pilot that is flying internationally should have to sit a PPC or similar before they are allowed to fly into said countries airspace?

[treykule]

There is a small group of very disgruntled pilots in Canada that want that bad old Sunwings out of the market..Dont confuse the issue with facts.

Their claims is that the government is not enforcing temporary worker rules, and Sunwing is playing fast and loose with them...
It is not exactly as it appears..There are quailified pilots in Canada..but, as it happens, they are employed. There are unqualified pilots in Canada who want Sunwing to train them for a temporary job, give them the rating, and then they can advance their careers. Their motivation is almost transparent.
I say almost because part of their motivation is to try and take Sunwing out of the equation to reduce seat capacity and therefore make the comptetition much more profitable.

It disgusts me when I hear about failed sim rides,,,,and foreign crews...Foreign crews fly into and out of Canada daily..Because they are suddenly flying for a company people dont like they are not qualified ?

This topic has been beaten to death under a whole slew of different approaches (attacks) on other sites..Give it a rest.

[Denti]

Seems the petition has done something. Looks like transport canada doesn't allow at least some of those foreign pilot deals with sunwings. Most likely the same will now be done via wet leases which apparently cannot be forbidden without leaving the united nations and ICAO.

[Left Coaster]

Well gee whiz... unemployed pilots wanting a job to further their careers...transparent? What balls they have! How about normal? Who out there in Canada and unemployed or under employed for that matter, wouldn't want a half decent shot at a flying job on heavy jet equipment? As far as licencing issues and Ops Specs, TC is responsible to audit foreign carriers and their pilots for compliance wrt training, maintenance, equipment (ETOPS, RNP, MNPS etc) as well as eligibility to operate in it's sovereign airspace, and while it seems that Ops Specs have been issued, are those carriers actually maintaining those required standards? I might be a little guilty of waving the Canadian flag here, but twenty years of working in my home country and another ten overseas has shown me that the industry in Canada is not in very good shape and needs attention. Allowing foreign pilots to take Canadian jobs is a slippery slope that makes it seriously difficult for new pilots to get a decent job. Have a gander at what Air Canada wants for it's low cost carrier, they look to have proposed to move jobs off shore to save money! Is that fair to those who aspire to stay employed in Canada? My hat is off to those who stand up for thier profession.

[treykule]

Standing up for your profession , or wanting to advance your career are fine. But when it is a temporary position the type rating is what is important...And simply wanting to wave the flag and demand a company provide you with training that they would not have to do , and because it is only a term position, is, to be fair...not fair at all.. Typical Canadian though....
There is a huge difference between an unemployed type rated Canadian pilot who is being overlooked for a foreigner (which is not the case here), and a king air pilot who feels a sense of entitlement and does not give a damn about the economics of the business...just wants to advance their career.
Big bad company should just cough up the money to give them a type rating...even if it is only for a seasonal job .....me me me.
Yes, air canada, and even WestJet are trying to lower pilot wages, and I expect they will be successful.. But that has nothing to do with hiring temporary seasonal pilots.
If you really care about the Canadian industry, start by working on TC to require an ATPL to sit right seat in any 704/705 operation, and upgrade the ATPL requirements.. That will make the pool smaller, and the value of a pilot higher. It will happen. Already done in the US as far as the regionals are concerned.(1500 min)..And stand back for the howling and wailing of the "how do I get experience" crowd. Maybe try and effect change in the MCPL or whatever it is called..Your big fair Canadian companies were all behind that.
Bad old Sunwings should not hire foreigners, but it is OK for Air Canada and the new West Jet Q400s to have 20 year old, 250 hour wonders who have never flown in a cloud, or in anything over 4000 pounds sitting in the right seat..Is that safe..If that is OK, then we certainly dont need to be paying pilots for experience anymore so wages should go down.

BTW...I heard today of a similar no-com incident in the UK...I bet sunwing and some german conspiracy was behind that.....damn foreigners.

[J.O.]

Left Coaster:

You did not quote a regulation or standard that TC would apply to refuse the ops spec on the condition that one or more of their pilots had failed a Canadian PPC. That's because they don't exist.

You are correct that the carrier does have to meet the ops spec requirements and the fact that they have it means that they have satisfied TC that those requirements are met. But you also must remember that as an ICAO member state, that acceptance is largely based on the certification of the carrier's home CAA, which is also in an ICAO member state. The large Canadian carriers have FAA ops specs that are issued on the same basis, the FAA simply verifies that a Canadian certification exists and then they issue parallel ops specs. If the FAA has concerns about an incident involving a Canadian carrier, they contact TC and ask for information. TC will have done the same with the (Portuguese??) CAA over this lost coms incident.

Treyluke:

You dismiss the concerns of Canadian pilots without considering the whole issue. Yes the work in Canada is temporary, but the aircraft that they are flying are not. They are imported to Canada for the peak season but they don't sit around the rest of the year. They are flown doing similar work in their home state the other half of the year. No one is asking that Canadian pilots do all of that flying on both sides, simply that there is a reciprocal requirement to share the load equally, so that if 50 foreign pilots fly in Canada for half the year, 50 Canadians should fly overseas for the other half. If you can honestly say that you believe that this is an unreasonable request, then you are an unreasonable person whose interest in the issue is every bit as selfish as you would accuse the Canucks of being.

[treykule]

Well, I am not dismissing the whole issue, but, instead, looking at the bigger picture.
The folks who are complaining about Sunwing want exactly what you are suggesting...If 50 foreign pilots work in Canada for 6 months, then 50 Canadians should work outside Canada.(specifically for SunWing).Very limited logic.

The big picture, that the govenment uses is based on all companies..That is if Canada has 500 foreign nationals flying in Canada then Canada should have 500 flying outside..Not company by company. Look at my location. I am not alone here, and I think on the balance of the big picture Canadian pilots are doing just fine.
More of them working outside Canada, I believe than foreigners working inside Canada.

The company I work for has zero pilots flying in Canada that I know of..Zero....Notice that those who are whining about Sunwings never bring companies like this up..And there are more than one or two of them.
All they want to do is make it a SunWing problem and pretend it is all about fairness to Canadian pilots.. You wins some . You loses some...And Canadian pilots, on the whole are winning..

Having said all the above, I do think that something could be worked out to allow Sunwing to train , say 50% of the required seasonal crews, if an agreement can be worked out for them to fly overseas for the balance of the year..I wonder how many of our posters would go for working conditions like that...the foreign pilots are all for it.

I stand by my original impression that this is not about unfairness to Canadian pilots, but either a group of unqualified, entitlemently enhanced Canadian pilot whiners, or a group that wants to limit Sunwings market exposure under the guise of abuse of Canadian regulations.

Go and search Sunwing in AvCanada..These posters even falsley placed an employment ad for Sunwing, which,in fact was a call to stop Sunwing hiring (moved by the mods to the employment section) .. Their posts kept popping up on various topics with the same thoughts...stop Sunwing..Dont take my word for it...do a bit of searching if you think their motives are above board.

Being a pilot nowadays is more and more an international rather than a domestic job skill.

[J.O.]

There are two broader issues here that must be considered in your "big picture" scenario.

The first is precedent. In Canada, airlines have historically hired pilots who have a fairly high level of experience because they are available. They have paid to qualify those pilots on the type of airplane they fly. It is a cost of doing business, and because progression is gained through seniority within the company, those pilots tend to remain loyal to the employer in exchange for the company providing the training. Sunwing's competitors still engage in this practice. This by definition, has set the precedent for what defines a "qualified" pilot for a Canadian airline. When the government gives one company the right to circumvent that precedent to a commercial advantage, thus preventing Canadian taxpayers from progressing in their career and contributing to their own economy, it is doubly unfair to both the pilots and those companies who hire and train in the traditional fashion. I am perfectly aware that times change, but until the day comes when Canadian airlines are not able to hire qualified Canadians, importing pilots even temporarily, without a reasonable reciprocal agreement, should be disallowed.

The second directly addresses your "bigger picture numbers" issue. How many qualified pilots are unemployed in the country there where you work? I suspect that the answer is very few to none. Canadians aren't flying on expat contracts because they're somehow superior or willing to do it for less money. They're on those contracts (along with Brits, Americans, Aussies, etc.) because the host countries do not have the supply of qualified people and/or the training infrastructure to prepare them in the first place. It is a completely different subject and I suspect you know it. The day that any of those host countries has the capability to supply qualified pilots among their own citizenry, would be the day when it would be perfectly logical to reduce the number of expats accordingly to replace them with people who live there, pay taxes there and are part of the local culture. Canada has such a supply and until that changes, the complaint remains a legitimate one.

[treykule]

To answer your question yes there are unemployed pilots here while they hire expats. Same in many countries right now..The reason is that the airlines want type rated and experienced pilots, and it is quicker , and ultimately safer to put a type rated, experienced expat in the left seat than a fresh domestic pilot. The difference is that while these countries dont like expats any more than Canadians do, they realize it is necessary at the present time. There is not the sense that fair means preferential treatment for domestic pilots, although most countries are trying to get rid of the nasty old expats...but just because we are expensive..Sunwings need seasonal pilots....Seasonal....there is a pool of qualified , unemployed type rated pilots available,. They just dont happen to be Canadian.

I expect that in Canada there are few pilots who are type rated, current, and unemployed who could step into the seasonal positions with SunWings. That really is not the issue. What the issue these folks want, or appear to want, is for Sunwings to take non-type rated Canadian pilots and train them ...because...well, just because they want it. We are playing sematics with qualified. It is not about being eligable..It is about having the rating, being current, and being available.
The whole reciprococity specific to Sunwings is a red herring..They know that wont happen. Reminds me a bit of the Quebec students who want the lowest tuition in Canada, even if their province has to rely on other provinces for a balance of transfer, and the other provinces charge their students higher tuition..
Some of you , I believe have honest intentions, but the original folks that started these posts on different websites, and are trying to get a groundswell of support are leading you astray...no one is playing fast and loose with anything..I said it before. When we talk about expat pilots, Canada is doing very well, I think...Perhaps we should allow all those companies who hire Canadians to demand that Canada hire an equal number of their nationals..Every bit as qualified as the Canadians that want these jobs. Fair is fair...Lets see a few thousand expats be given "recipricocity" in Canada. I can imagine the howling and wailing now about expats taking jobs from Canadians..
The good news, is I dont think the government will ulitmately be swayed by all this petition stuff, though if AC and WJ put pressure on them maybe.

[J.O.]

Those carriers aren't hiring experienced expats in place of experienced locals, they are hiring experienced expats because the locals are not experienced enough and therefore not qualified - they have very low time and those carriers choose to have reasonable experience requirements, not 250 hr newbies in the right seat.

You are also wrong on reciprocity. It has been happening with Canadian charter carriers for years.

[treykule]

I am not sure about your first paragraph. With a few minor differences it is pretty much the same point as I was trying to make ( the locals are not type rated).. Sunwings is not discriminating against qualified Canadian pilots. But I did recieve a PM mentioning that there might be another reason...I wont go into detail, but it is the same...there is a motive other than the one stated.

As to the second, I think if you do a bit of reasearch to how many
canadians are flying overseas to how many foreign expats are working for Canadian carriers, you will see Canada comes out very well.. I challanged one of the original gang that was trying to enlist the help of the masses to stop bad old sunwest...Seems they are only interested in the unfairness they perceive in one company...A bit odd, dont you think, for people that claim to be all about fairness in hiring? It is only about Sunwest.

Anyway, we are beginning to go around in circles so it is time for me to drop the subject...

[warren767]

Who is paying for the fighters to get these guys a freq change? Probably not Sunwing