PDA

View Full Version : Innsbruck Approach


shon7
3rd Apr 2002, 19:10
I got a chance to look at the Innsbruck approach and the plate says that once a final decision to land has been made, a go around cannot be initiated. Any of you who have flown in and out of the airport in IMC - how do you make this decision.

On the same subject - do you always hae to use an autoland at such airports? What if you overshoot? (I don't know the lenght of the runway at Innsbruck so this might be a stupid question.)

411A
4th Apr 2002, 04:08
No, autoland not possible. And, believe it or not, Montana Aviation used to operate B720's there in the 1970's.....would be interesting to say the least. Met one of their Captains at SIA in '79, many interesting stories to tell....

ICT_SLB
4th Apr 2002, 04:56
The thing to remember about the Innsbruck approach is that it terminates higher than most normal approaches start! It is in effect a "cloud breaker" that uses ILS but terminates (if memory serves) with the MDA at 1500 ft agl (lower if you've been approved by Austrocontrol). You then execute a 30 degree turn over the town to align with the runway.

Autoland doesn't come into it as you're always going to land visually.

dolly737
4th Apr 2002, 07:48
schon7:
I’m not sure which app you are referring to, there are 2 (west and east) and where you got the “no go around” from...

SCT-SLB:
There is, in fact no ILS, just a LLZ with a “4 deg. G/S-support” (from the east) with LLZ alignment of 255° whereas the rwy is 260°; from the west we have just a LLZ/DME app.

Nevertheless, there are a few things to consider when you go canyoning into INN using the “east”-app: E.g. the MAP-climb gradient (2,9%=MDA 3089ft AAL 7NM from THR, 3,9%=MDA 2218ft AAL) and the MAP-turning radius (1700m/5500ft).

But there are a few ciritcal things when designing a balked landing procedure: The official suggestion by the authority is to “...climb with at least 6,1% along the northern side of the valley. Start left turn when passing 3200ft QNH west of aerodrome. Max turning radius 1800m/5900ft at turning point 3,0 DME OEV west of station...”! Remember - this pattern is to be flown visually!

The problem is: you might see the rwy at MDA and opt for landing, but if the area just west of the airport is IMC, and you have to go around from below MDA, then you are in real bad shape.

Going regularly into INN with a “special”-procedure for our B737 (but still no provisions for a balked landing), I base my decision on having reasonable visual references into the “balked landing area” west of the airport when passing MDA.

BTW, the rwy length is 2000m/6562ft and ICT_SLB and 411A are correct, there is no way of autolanding.

OnTheStep
4th Apr 2002, 10:52
ref: Innsbruck (http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/inns/jeppesen.htm)



url edited

dolly737
4th Apr 2002, 17:51
Good link! To make it clear: the app on this plate is the SPECIAL (!) LOC/DME east. Before using this one, you have to submit a LOT of paperwork to the authority.

However, there is a "normal" LOC/DME for "public" use and I was referring to this one in my post.

shon7
5th Apr 2002, 14:12
Thanks for the info guys. I am confused on the "special authorizaion" part. Why and when would one use this approach? Doesn't the airport have only one runway?

dolly737
5th Apr 2002, 15:01
@shon7:

The reason for the „special“ is simply a much lower MDA/MDH (as low as around 3000ft) and usually only flight vis required instead of ceiling + flight vis on the “normal” app. A common procedure is a minimum depending on actual aircraft weight (MAP-climb gradient). And before the CAA lets you do this, they want some performance figures plus proof of crew training.

Yes, only one runway, but also a “LOC/DME west” app. with a MDA of 5000ft. It is merely a letdown (cloud-breaker) if arriving from the west and if wx is not really a factor, and uses the front-course of OEJ (see the INN-link from OTS) starting about D24. Descent gradient is 8.2% (4.7° !) and terminates at AB (yes, east of the airport pointing away from the runway!) hopefully already visual. Then you do a tight level 180 to the right and go for a landing. The only point from where to start your missed is when finished with your 180 - if you lose contact here or consider a landing impossible, you just continue the turn (another 180) back onto the LOC and get out.

No matter which app you fly there, if you take it right to the wx-minimums and continue, your are “committed to land”.

SimJock
6th Apr 2002, 03:46
Innsbruck is a popular training airport on simulators for obvious reasons, I enjoy practicing it in all kinds of simulated weather.

I wonder why they have a glideslope just as an indicator however ? it could be used do a partial autoland/approach down to MDA whereupon you take over manually. Does that happen ?

Another tricky bit seems to be the circle to land procedures to land on 08, there's just diddly squat room to do this. Have you ever done this Dolly ? what are the recomended speed/flap/gear settings/times for this bit, I never seem to have enough room to make the turn from RH downwind to final in A320. Did it once as a pax in Air2Bob 767 and it was impressive.

dolly737
6th Apr 2002, 18:07
Hi SimJock:

The glideslope is just an aid, you may couple it to the autopilot, if the airplane is certified for coupling a 4° g/s (the 737 is NOT).

We have to circle quite often. After breaking off to the left from the LOC (at AB) proceed to a position approx 2,5 NM SE of the field (from AB its 229°) at a minimum of 3700 ft QNH. Here comes the trick: you’ve got to “lean” yourself as close as “practicable” to the mountain-slope raising to the south, continuing downwind across the village of AXAMS, which is 2,6 NM SW of threshold 08. At this point (latest) you must have established final landing configuration and speed (the 737 does it with approx. 150kts at max landing mass). About 1 NM NNW your position you see a tight valley with a crossing powerline. Now start your 180° turn to final (25° to 30° bank, all the way through and don’t hesitate here!), initiating descent and crossing the powerlines (right where they cross that valley) at 3200ft. During foehn-conditions a very strong SW-wind is stretching the turn, so be prepared for a possible overshoot. It looks impressive, because halfway through this turn you’re head-on with a massive rock called “Martinswand”, 5300ft high.
If you’ve done everything right, then you should be established on a 2 miles final at around 2800ft QNH (900ft AAL). Maintain your descent until catching the 3,5° PAPI. NOW you should be fine ;-)

Try (in the sim) and enjoy!

Hotel Mode
7th Apr 2002, 14:12
We fly the Special East into INN and I had the misfortune to have to fly it to minima the other weekend, the MDA is 2800ft which is about 900ft aal, there are strobes on the ground taking you round the slight turn to finals 26. It was a bit windy, snowy, and dark and i dont really want to repeat the experience! Having seen what we were flying down in gorgeous CAVOK and with everything red on the terrain radar is not nice.

We do have a balked landing procedure for this approach, it is runway heading to 1 mile track 275 to 3.3 then left turn to visual circuit! or back to AB and when on track level acceleration to clean and climb out along the backcourse

dolly737
7th Apr 2002, 16:01
@Hotel Mode:

As I understand your post, your balked landing procedure agrees in general with the CAA-suggestions. The challenge, however, is still to stay visual throughout the manoeuvre. My question, to everyone flying INN, is then: How do you do it ? - once below MDA with wx at minimums and ceilings around 2800ft !?

What I'm trying to say is that when you're proceeding visually (=@ 2800ft in LEVEL flight) to 3.3 West and start your left turn here, chances are you'll be hitting something during the last quarter of the turn.

???

To be honest, I don't have an answer either...

steamchicken
7th Apr 2002, 20:11
For readers unaware of the point, the city of Innsbruck is surrounded by huge alps! As far as I know, Tyrolean fly there with ATR72s - but a 737 sounds tough.

Georgeablelovehowindia
7th Apr 2002, 20:43
British Eagle wiped out a Bristol Britannia, with total loss of life, at Innsbruck in 1963, or perhaps 1964. The two captains, one of whom was checking the other into the place, invented a let-down through cloud (no published procedure then in force) and obviously it didn't work!

411A, yes I should imagine that shoehorning a 720B into Innsbruck would have a bit of "Pucker Factor!" However, if you stuffed it up, all you would have to do would be to firewall the thrust levers and this gloriously overpowered aeroplane would go into orbit! It was 47,000kg. lighter than a 707 with the same engines which were only de-rated by 1000lb. Wot a machine! The memory of flying it still brings out a cheesy grin!

SimJock
8th Apr 2002, 02:40
Well hello Dolly ... (could be a song there)

Thanks for the top flying tips, much more controlled with landing config setup downwind, plus no nasty terrain warnings, which put me off a bit, 140 kts and the 320 turns perfectly onto final as you suggest. Tried also in 737-300 and managed to overshoot the centreline considerably which proved interesting but recoverable. I'll just keep on practising.

Initially I thought my mountains were too near the airfield but I think I just wasn't flying "as close as practicable" enough to them. (Just as well cos moving mountains aint easy, even on a sim). Those poor people in AXAMS must get really fed up with this approach, you're only 700-800ft agl at this point !

If the boss is reading, these things do need testing periodically, OK.

chippy63
8th Apr 2002, 04:41
Steamchicken,
I think that Austrian/Tyrolean use mainly Dash 8's on the Vienna route, but there is a daily F70 . They also operate to Frankfurt with the Dash 8.

Hotel Mode
8th Apr 2002, 10:46
I think the general plan is, after a baulked landing off the special, you can always use the Dme distances and DR the headings! The aircraft I fly there is quite a lot of space to get round at 3.3D at Vref+15. Having attempted the Valley visual departure, trying to identify ground landmarks below at the kind of deck angles you rae talking about is a bit tricky and we reverted to Dme anyway, but then that was a nice day and we could at least see the mountain.

dolly737
8th Apr 2002, 14:38
Well, there seems to be a common agreement as to the lateral profile of the balked landing procedure. Anyway, in minimum wx, most of the inn-rated pilots would probably firewall everything and pull up, giving a sh.. about staying visual while trying to gain at least enough altitude to make the turn west of the airport safely (with 3200 ft the trees will bend). If you know exactly where you are (by whatever means), it will do the trick.

P.S: Don’t even think about an engine failure...

Hotel Mode
8th Apr 2002, 15:27
Quite!

Just a quick question, what do other companies do about INN qualification? Capt and F/O do Sim, either watch or do all profiles including balked landings, and Capt do training on site, then get line checked. But that might be because our aircraft performance is a little worse than some others i have seen.

steamchicken
8th Apr 2002, 15:31
just like to say sorry for embarrassing factual error!

dolly737
8th Apr 2002, 16:31
@Hotel Mode:

Thats about the same we do for qualification, 2 flights/year required to maintain it.

BTW, which type are you flying into INN?

411A
8th Apr 2002, 23:40
"...Don't even think about engine failure."

Hmmm, well in the B720...it would NOT make a difference!
Other types....could be a problem....maybe.

Mr Fishy
9th Apr 2002, 10:41
411a, all engine failure cases on either the approach or after V1 are catered for by company procedures which we practice in the sim every year. This is for a twin engine jet (Airbus and Boeing).

The largest aircraft I have seen at Innsbruck is the B767,
Where did the B720 come from?? :confused:

dolly737
9th Apr 2002, 11:33
If my memory serves me right, this was "Montana air" in the late 70s / early 80s... but they've been out of business now for around 20 years.

Hotel Mode
10th Apr 2002, 21:11
Dolly 737

I fly the 146 (RJ) hence the performance snags, although its not such a big deal to lose 1!

411A
10th Apr 2002, 22:42
Yes indeed, for the 4 engine aeroplanes....no big deal.

dolly737
11th Apr 2002, 21:28
Well well...

Comparing minimum required approach-climb and landing-climb performance of 2- and 4-engine airplanes with one engine out (thus 25% less thrust on a 146, but 50% on a 737) might require some additional considerations

According FAR 25 both airplanes need to demonstrate the SAME (3.2%) landing climb segment gradient (=balked landing), whereas on a missed approach, a 4-engine a/c should indeed have a better climb gradient (2.7% vs. 2.1%).

This means, that when catering for an engine failure during balked landing, procedure designers (and finally pilots) are faced with the same performance, regardless of the number of engines we have. During approach climb (missed approach) however, 4-engined a/c are about 28% better off.

dolly737
12th Apr 2002, 11:42
For those interested in photos of INN go to the site of "Airliners.net".

INN-Photos (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?placesearch=Innsbruck%20-%20Kranebitten%20%28INN%20%2F%20LOWI%29&distinct_entry=true&thumbnails=nophotos)

Enjoy!