Any Pitts Jockeys?

[paulo]

They seem to be quite good value serious aeros machines, so I'm off to Mr Cassidy in a few weeks to get an introduction on his S2, but in the meantime there's a few questions for you Pitts people, particularly S1S...

- If you came straight from tricycle gear, how long did it take to sort out your taildragger skills?
- What's the forward visibility like, flying.
- Do you wear a chute?
- Do you have a transponder? Fuel gauge?
- Cost/hr (rent or group) ?
- PFA or full CAA?

If you've flown both an S1 series and S2 series, notable differences?

[stiknruda]

Pitts Specials - every family should own one!

I only have just over one hundred hours in Curtis' design ( circa 70 single seat and and 35 in the two hole model).

I had about 200 hrs tailwheel time before trying to land the Pitts and although it is a typical tail wheel aircraft it all happens a lot quicker than say a Cub or Chippie. Transition trg on the S2A Pitts was about 7 hours for me then I flew the single seater.

Forward vis flying is fine - it is just preytty poor when the nose is high (landing or on take off).

I always fly the single seater with a 'chute, the S2 depends on whether the pax wants to do aeros or not.

All Pitts' have fuel gauges - the single seaters have a sight tube on the right hand side of the control panel and the S2A has a smart little gauge on top of the tank. Haven't flown a B model from the rear in over a year so honestly can't recall how it is gauged! Transponders in the certified versions but not on the permit single seaters that I fly.

To rent an S2A you are looking at £150 - £180/hr

To campaign a single seater for 50 hrs a year on a permit something in the region of £70/hr - if you were in a group that would decrease a lot as you'd all share the fixed costs.

differences - the two seater is far less "frantic" than the single seater and is easier to aerobat and to land as you have the wing ahead of you which makes for a great reference.

Landing the two seater from the rear is probably the easiest place to land any of them from as the vis is far better.


Hope that helps. Enjoy flying with AC - he is very good.


stik



:p

[Ludwig]

Agree with Stik; you cannot have too many Pitts.

Converting from Trikes to conventional u/c is an unpredictable process and rather depends on the quality of the intructor, the type of surface (bumpy ruted grass runways are hard work because of the bounce factor!) andyour own skill/ natural giftedness. I have known people convert to an S2A in a couple of hours with no previous tailwheel experince, and others who seem utterly incapable however long the do it.

I had no previous tail wheel experince and onlyabout 120 hour tt when I first flew a Pitts, and it took me about 6 hours to get it on the ground consistently with fear of damage! It took about 100 hours total Pitts time before I was entirely comfortable with every thing the thing could do to be on the ground and in the air.

A few words of warning however:

IMHE there is more b%&&*£%cks talked about Pitts Special's than just about any other aircraft, usually by people who have never flown one, or by ego charged instructors trying to hype up the difficulty of the thing. IGNORE THEM. It is the best thing you can fly in terms of bang for your buck. It goes exactly where you point it untill you tellit to do something else. People rant about the difficulty of controlling them on the ground, and how squirrelly they are - more &&*^*%cks, there are no squirrelly Pitts jsut Squirelly pilots. Remember to use your feet, The rudder bars are there for a purpose, not like most training aircraft when they are just a convienient foot rest.

Finally, the Pitts Grin. After your first sortie I bet you have a stupid great grin across your face and an istant desire/ need to buy a Pitts.

:D :D

[Balance!]

Ludwig - I remember my stupid grin after the first time I flew an S1. Couldn't get it off my face for days..... Agree with your comments. Most of the hype about the poor ground handling qualities is over done (and is often generated by fellow Pitts pilots in an effort to preserve the image):D

[AerBabe]

Grrr Pitts *pattooeee* (close to a spitting noise as I can spell)

Had one formate on me during my first navex. And I mean CLOSE!!!

Sure they're great a/c really :o

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, AerBabe, how many times have I told you, you can't put down every Pitts just because of one w@nker pilot :(

Only have 1 hour on the Pitts, and I have to say it's an awesome machine. Not something I'd necessarily like to own - when it comes to aeros, I prefer to go looping lazilly around the sky - but if you're serious about aerobatics, it's incredible.

Can't see what all the fuss is about re. ground handling. Take-off is easy, and landing is no harder than any other tandem tail-dragger where you can't see the runway. As far as taxying is concerned, it's by far the easiest tail-dragger to taxy of any I've ever tried. Much easier than the Great Lakes which I was flying two days earlier - the school had 3 Great Lakes, and each had different taxying characteristics, including one which would not turn right!. It was fine at very low speeds when the tailwheel had some authority, and would turn right at moderately high speeds when the rudder started to become effective, but at "normal" taxying speeds full right rudder would just about keep you going straight, and the only way to turn right was differential braking. Nearly took out several taxyway lights! :eek:

Anyway, go and enjoy the Pitts, you lucky git - wish I could afford it! :D

FFF
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[paulo]

Thanks for the encouraging comments. I'd budgeted for 10 hours dual to get the hang of landing it, doing some inverted spins and stuff. Sounds like this might be realistic.

I guess I'm about to find out whether my own lazy looping aeros antics are about to be seriously upgraded.

Then it's time to decide whether to buy in to the apparent madness. :eek: :eek:

Do any of you lucky people own one, or are in a group? Wouldn't mind asking a few questions off line if I may.

[LowNSlow]

AerBabe, it wasn't purple was it?

Sorry stik, couldn't resist it :D :D

Does anybody know what became of the red S1C that was based in Swanton Morley? Nice little machine until somebody stuffed one of the lower wings whilst taxiing...... Was for sale about 9-10 months ago.

Saw it being rebuilt then lost touch

Who is the chap in White Waltham who teaches aeros on the S2?

[paulo]

Mark Walden and Alan Cassidy do. Can't tell you more than that right now, but within the next two weeks or so I'll have probably flown with both of them.

[stiknruda]

The red Swanton Morley Pitts.....

I believe that there were two a/c based there at different times!

One of them is now languishing at Liverpool, the other quite a beautiful machine was last seen at Langham (Notts).

Try

www.pitts.org.uk


Stik

[flickoff]

Paulo

S1C, don't even think about it. Buy an S1S or T. any other S1 has non symetrical wings or is probably a heinz 57 job. Beware of highly modified stuff. Curtis new what he was doing and anything other than a Curtis by the book Pitts is probably a heap of smell stuff waiting to be off loaded at a probably cheap looking price. Beware the to good to be true Pitts S1C/D bargin!

[LowNSlow]

paulo, look forward to getting a blow by blow account of your aeros :D

stik, I think it was G-BAUW, which is in the picture, now in Liverpool. It had the name Gandalf on the port engine cowl.

[Legalapproach]

One of the two Pitts's based at Swanton Morley was my old aircraft G-BRZX which was an S1S. Lovely aircraft that I once flew down to Italy. Only Nav kit was a magnetic compass, clock and map. Would love to know if its still having fun. :)

[stiknruda]

Flick-off's point about the S1C is valid but mainly because the wing span is shorter (one bay) and therefore the MAUW is 100lbs less than the S1D/S1S.

Average male pilot and much fuel just wouldn't be legal in the C model.

The S1C only has ailerons on the lower wings.

The S1D/E has 4 ailerons, larger wings but they are M6 airfoil - ie the "flat bottomed" wings.

The S1S has symetrical wings - in reality they are not perfectly symetrical as top and lower sections have slightly diffeerent profiles.

All 'S' models are injected and some 'D' models, too. I would recommend that you avoid normally aspirated Pitts Specials.

Legal Approach - your old aeroplane is the one that I most recently know of as being at Langham. I know it has subsequently been sold on. Perhaps Flick-off would know where it is currently based? (Good luck in the Icicle today - FO!)

Italy. Must have been quite a trip! I would love to take mine to Portugal and probably will - can you imagine a Balbo of Pitts' migrating south for a summmer break?

Going to go fly mine now.


Stik

[LowNSlow]

stik, I understand you comments re C models and carb engines but I suspect that a C would be the only one I could afford.

I'm 6' tall and weigh 200lbs. Two questions:

1. Would I fit in an S1C and still be able to move my arms & legs?

2. Would I be able to uplift more than 2 pints of fuel ?


PS I have no desire to be anothe Brian Lecomber :D :D just poodle around with the occasional loop en route

PPS the Pitts I remember in Swanton was an S1C

[stiknruda]

L'n'S

I guess that you could squeeze in to one but I honestly don't know about useful fuel load as it depends on the weight of the aeroplane, however IIRC the S1C has a MAUW of 1050lbs.

I don't have an average weight for the S1C but would hazard a guess of around 800lbs.

That would give you 50lbs for motion lotion and oil.

Go figure - as my septic friends would say!

You can often pick up a D or E model for not a whole bunch more than a C. When you are really serious, drop me a note and I'll help - despite the slur about formation flying without a briefing!
I know that it wasn't me!

The S1C from Swanton now languishes in the back of a hangar at liverpool - don't think that it has flown in nearly 3 years - what a shame, eh?

stik

[formationfoto]

UW Gandalf is still languishing at the back of the Keenair hangar at Liverpool - saw it there on good friday when visiting. Enquired about status and was told that it hasn't moved in months. No-one seemed to know what was happening with it.

Am looking for an S1 of some variant for formation stuff in East Anglia. Ideally two relatively cheap would be good - not looking for sparkling aero performance as mostly relaxed formation aeros. Tow in the same colour scheme would be really good. Ideally similar performance models.

Can but wish.

I suppose a purple one would do to chase Al around the sky.

[flickoff]

Hey Stik, Howzit man?

The Icicle was fffffffairly cold!

What's this about normally aspirated Pitts, man? If you've got a supercharged one I want a go in it right now!

F/o

[LowNSlow]

stik sounds like I either need a serious diet or change more beer tokens into flying tokens :D

Maybe I'll stick to the Auster for now unless you know somebody who'd like to trade. Yeah, right :D :D

When I do get serious about a Pitts I'll take you up on the offer and drop you a line.

You must have to be a good boy flying that purple missile cos everybody's going to recognise it :D

[paulo]

Icicle was indeed appropriately named.

Thought I'd go and have a nosey and was rewarded with plenty of examples to have a look at, plus a couple of Extras which I have to admit would be my first choice but for the money. Digital accelerometers are soooooo cool :)

Anyway, verdict was that everyone's Pitts were very very shiny, and the one I've been to look at isn't quite so shiny.

How much does paintwork affect value? How much would a paint job be on an S1S? Can it be done without a recover?

[stiknruda]

You can not effectively re-paint without recovering.

Re-covering at a rough guess will cost £5k

A three colour paint job (Pitts starburst a la Gene Soucey) £5k

Then you'll need to budget a few hundred for the inevitable repairs that will become apparent after the fabric is stripped off so figure somewhere around £12k and about 2 months out of commission.

Both Flick-off and I can highly recommend a man in the Midlands!

Alternatively you can probably do it all yourself (easier if the aircraft is on a permit) IF you have the time and determination.


So the question really is - which one have you been looking at?


Stik

[flickoff]

Paulo

I have looked at a number of Pitts S1's which people have bought to me in response to an advert some while ago. IMHO, virtually everyone with an immaculate Pitts is deeply in love with their aeroplane and would sooner sell the kids than the a/c.

Most of the ones I have seen are dogs. They have been ******ed about with by DIY how can I save a few quid type owners, or are very tiered. Either way they need taking apart and rebuilding. The joy of a Pitts is that you can do this and come out with an immaculate a/c, but it is not cheap.

If you buy a shabby S1S (there are only three and a half T's in the UK) with an engine that is spray painted a whole batch of different colours (always worth avoiding), expect to pay very ball park 15 to 20K. Most owners want more but they are walter mitty types. Having the thing taken apart and put back together as per factory original will cost between 10 and 20k depending on what nightmares are uncovered, like for example, wing spa damage, broken wing ribs, broken tubes in the frame etc etc.

Once you have a really immaculate S1S expect 25 to 30K tops.

Remember, tho, a Pitts is not just for christmas it is for life and it will last a lifetime and cost next to nothing to run on a PFA Permit. I am biased as I have 2 which is greedy but hell you're a long time dead.

[FlyingForFun]

For anyone who wants to know what it's like to fly the Pitts, have a read of this account (http://www.ilstu.edu/~jlcunni/rrxmas2.htm)

(By the way, I have flown with Curt Langenhorst several times - unfortunately, never in the Pitts - and, as the author says, he is an exceptional pilot, and every bit as mad as the author makes him out to be!)

FFF
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[paulo]

Thanks Stik, Flik, FFF, Ludwig... seems like there's alot of help and advice out there from the Pitts community.

I'm out with Mark tomorrow afternoon. Lots more questions to come no doubt!

We really need an Aeros forum don't we guys. :)

[Ludwig]

We have an Aerobatic forum its here:



http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/ (http://)

[paulo]

Ludwig - I do take a look there once in awhile, but haven't seen a discussion area. Am I missing something?

[Ludwig]

Paulo

You must be missing paying your membership! The forum is conducted via an e mail exploder accessible to all members of the Association. If you are serious about aero's it's a must join. I'm sure Alan Cassidy will sell you a membership if you ask him.

L:cool: