Olympic Typhoon tasking request

[biddedout]

Dear Typhoon / Puma / Apache crews (or anyone else who is well armed),

In order to help crews overflying London monitor the guard frequency and avoid unnecessary incidents over the next few weeks, please could you start off by taking out the plonker who gets a kick out of constantly burping farting, singing and playing music on 121.5 in the Southern England Northern France area.

He could be on the ground but if not, flies regularly in this area particularly in the early evening. You can't miss him, it shouldn't be a dificult task.

And if he is a pilot in a two crew operation, the person next to him deserves the same fate for being too stupid to notice.

Thanks :ok:

[Neptunus Rex]

I imagine that the Tiffies, as well as other military assets, will be using UHF, so 121.5 should not be a problem.

However biddedout - your point is well made. Many years ago, as Scene of Search Commander, I had to berate some plonkers using 121.5 for personal chat (baseball results) as they were interfering with a live SAR incident over the North Atlantic.

[biddedout]

It's just a problem for all of us who have to listen to him when we are diligently listening out on guard. i cannot believe the authorities haven't dealt with him yet.

[i_like_tea]

Nearly as bad as a request on 121.5 from an aircraft who has lost contact with ATC.. and then the usual ON GUUUUAAAARRRDDD from some American.....

Er.. yeh!! That's the point..

[Regulation 6]

I think it's very very rare nowadays to hear 2 pilots chatting on 121.5

Most unauthorised transmissions fall into 2 categories:

1) The poor chap who has just made a mistake; eg trying to call his company on 121.5 by mistake. When he gets no reply he will check the freq, be a bit embarrassed, and select the correct freq. We've all done it at some time or other and this Chap doesn't need a "your on guard" admonishment.

2) The moron, probably and hopefully not a pilot, as previously described who gets a kick out of winding everyone up by transmitting stupid noises. Any response to this idiot is also inappropriate because he's a wind up merchant and it will just encourage him to keep doing it.

So, please, NO unauthorised 121.5 transmissions - the "you're on guard" call is in fact worse than the original transmission because you know you're doing it.

Just keep quiet - that is staying professional!

[Spitoon]

I imagine that the Tiffies, as well as other military assets, will be using UHF, so 121.5 should not be a problem. Until, of course, there's any need for some form of mil/civvie communication to resolve a situation.

Always good to think of the big picture....

[16024]

Regulation 6.
Spot on!
And will the next person who sniffily reminds us that we are all "on guard" please identify yourself so we can come round your pub and have a chat about professionalism.

[Easy Street]

Originally Posted by Neptunus Rex
I imagine that the Tiffies, as well as other military assets, will be using UHF, so 121.5 should not be a problem.


Most military aircraft monitor both UHF and VHF guard frequencies - so we can and do listen to all the "on guard" BS!

[Andu]

Will there be an instruction from Above to desist from the unique British practice of "practice pan" for the duration of the Games?

(Standing by for many 'incomings'.)

[GA Button]

Yes - NATS are actively discouraging it through briefings to the GA community for the duration of the games.

[Kingfisher]

Not unreasonable to drop practice Pans for the Olympics, they arent on for long. Once they are over you can Pan to your hearts content.

[irishpilot1990]

Not once have I practised pan or disturbed the silence on 121.5 and I do not understand this GA or school policy. Practice in the cockpit - let your instructor be ATC:D :D :mad:

I can forgive the guy who makes the call to ops by mistake but is there a need for practice pan? When there is too many it results in us turning down the audio on 121.5 which can cause bigger problems later on.....

[mrmum]

Practice Pan calls aren't so much a GA (by which I think you mean light aircraft) or school policy, rather they are encouraged by the CAA. See CAP413, chapter 8, 1.3, 1.9, & 1.10, I would copy & paste some of the text, but that doesn't seem to be working.
So you might well not agree with it, but you should understand it.

GA Button,
I haven't seen anything from the CAA about not doing them while R112's in effect, although I can see while they might. Do you have a reference for that, or is it just a word of mouth request south of Manchester?

[Duchess_Driver]

Its not necessarily the practice of the format of the transmission for a practice pan that we teach it....

...it's to get them used to the fact that they should not be afraid to ask for help.

Most students are very conscious about using the radio in general, let alone when 121.5 is tuned. The point is to get them over the fear of speaking on 121.5 so when it comes to a real emergency (or possible infringement!) they don't hesitate.

It is a practice that D&D positively encourage...we often get calls to make them for 'staff training' purposes... so I'm sorry if it disturbs people but I don't think I'll be stopping the practice any time soon.

Not heard any 'please abstain' cries from either D&D or NATS/CAA for the Olympics so a reference to this call would be a great help.

Thanks.

[lenhamlad]

On a visit to NATS last year we visited the D&D room. The RAF sergeant on duty asked us to do more practice pans and training fixes as 1) it gives the guys in D&D more practice and 2) he was concerned that people further up the command chain were concerned at the declining number of calls, thus calling into question the need for such a service if it is not being fully utilised. As a low hours PPL I want to practice talking to the "real deal", not my friendly instructor sitting next to me.

[HEMS driver]

Which causes the most disruption on guard?

1. Practice pan, practice pan, practice pan (followed by multiple transmissions)

or

2. You're on guard

Why not have a dedicated frequency for this practice pan nonsense that IS NOT guard?

:ugh:

[mm43]

The following excerpt from CAP 413 is some of what mrmum was referring to:-

http://oi45.tinypic.com/vox2zb.jpg

[BEagle]

Will there be an instruction from Above to desist from the unique British practice of "practice pan" for the duration of the Games?

(Standing by for many 'incomings'.)

Yes, the CAA issued IN-2012/101 on 25 June 2012: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2012101Web.pdf

Practice PAN calls are indeed valuable training and will continue to be encouraged once this overblown sports day fiasco has ended.

[Pander216]

Despite all the arguments in favor of conducting practice pans; why the hell do you have to use an actual emergency frequency!? Is the CAA afraid people are unable to tune 121.5 in a real emergency? There is nothing more frustrating than working in the London TMA, which is already overcrowded RT wise, and having a practice pan on the second set.

P.s. the Practice pan of one UK aircraft can be heard in the entire west Europe region when flying at flight level 370 or higher. Nothing is more frustrating (especially in the weekend), than being disturbed by practice pans every 30 minutes on a 4 sector day.

[riverrock83]

Despite all the arguments in favour of conducting practice pans; why the hell do you have to use an actual emergency frequency!? Is the CAA afraid people are unable to tune 121.5 in a real emergency?.
I suspect that there isn't the spectrum available to have full UK coverage of another single frequency until the new spacing requirements are forced in, plus the cost involved of having a duplicate triangulation ability and transmitters / receivers across the country. It also allows the triangulation system to be regularly tested.

If GA didn't do the practice pans, then commercial traffic would then start being asked to provide practice for the D&D team. Now you wouldn't want that would you? The actual emergency system would still need tested from time to time too, so you would be back to square one. The current system provides mutual benefit for both D&D and controllers.

How many GA aircraft can even reach FL370? I suggest that most practice pans will be done at under 5000 feet (what height is the triangulation effective from?) , but of course, if you are above them the range would still be large.

[Pander216]

Excuse my French, but that is total nonsense. Not a single controller (other than the UK CAA) needs to practice the use of an VDF and the corresponding phraseology. Every other R&D facility in Europe only needs the occasional radio check.

Facilitating another free frequency would also not be impossible. In stead indeed half of west Europe is being bothered with the GA pilot who blocks the emergency frequency for 5 minutes. The risk is that after practice pan number 5 you forget to turn up the volume of the emergency frequency again with bigger consequences.

UK CAA R/T in general is very non standard compared to ICAO, and this is not a complement. I don't understand why they think they know it better that the rest of the world.

[AndoniP]

There is nothing more frustrating than working in the London TMA, which is already overcrowded RT wise, and having a practice pan on the second set.

P.s. the Practice pan of one UK aircraft can be heard in the entire west Europe region when flying at flight level 370 or higher. Nothing is more frustrating (especially in the weekend), than being disturbed by practice pans every 30 minutes on a 4 sector day


ahh diddums... turn your second set down then.

How many GA aircraft can even reach FL370? I suggest that most practice pans will be done at under 5000 feet

I think he's suggesting he's flying at FL370, not the GA aircraft :hmm:

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Riverrock

Try 'maximum theoretical range' of a transmitter.

Sq root of tx in feet, added to sq root of Rex in feet, gives a nm range.
Practice pan at 3000' can theoretically be heard over 200 miles away at FL 370.

[The Fat Controller]

riverrock83, commercial traffic is regularly asked to participate in practice PANs at Scottish Centre, levels are normally in the range FL80 to FL190.

[Herod]

IIRC, the theoretical radio range is 1.25 (sq root tx ht + sq root rx ht)

[DaveReidUK]

IIRC, the theoretical radio range is 1.25 (sq root tx ht + sq root rx ht)

I think you might need to qualify that by specifying units - which will presumably be different for range and height. :rolleyes: