Consistently smooth landings C210

[tomrut]

I have not flown a Cessna since the beginning of my flying training and am now in my first GA job flying the C210. I have completed around 25hrs ICUS on it and have all the general flying aspects down but am still getting inconsistent landings. Does anyone have any tips or tricks for getting it down smoothly, eg speeds, raising chair height, when to flare etc? I know there have been other threads on the 210 but they don't really have what I'm after.
Cheers.

[Aimpoint]

Even something basic like looking down the end of the runway in the flare.

I'd bet $100 that will fix your problems. You could be looking just a little ahead of the aircraft at the moment, not further down the runway, and therefore are having problems judging sink or drift.

[Ixixly]

Don't be afraid to keep just a bit of power on with it, depending on the length of the runway you're landing on of course. Remember that the singles you learnt to fly in were probably a lot lighter and lot floatier than the 210, so having idle power worked. Kinda like getting used to flying a Twin, its heavier, sometimes needs just a tiny amount of power left on until touch down to make it work!

[Pilot.Lyons]

On thursday i flew to leicester in a 152 i hadnt flown for a month due to weather and looked just ahead of nose..... Not a good landing in my opinion.....

I realised my error and on the way back looked at end of runway and shock horror a picture perfect landing... Shame there was no one there to see it... In leicester however.....!!

[fujii]

25 ICUS, If the supervising pilot was happy with you, you must be ok. Just enjoy the flying.

[RENURPP]

The bet thing you can do for yourself is forget some of the dribble you read on here.

Land with power on, what crap! :rolleyes:

[Arnold E]

The bet thing you can do for yourself

Is proof read.

[compressor stall]

Enjoy the c210. It's an aircraft that demands respect and finesse to fly it really well.

I remember after 50 hours on type thinking what a nice machine it was and how it was easy to fly.

Fast fwd 6 months and 500 hours on type and thinking how really nice it was and how sloppily I flew it 6 months previously.

[Nirak]

When I did my C210 convex I was taught to go 'click-click' backwards trim on the electrical trimmer on short final / just before closing the throttle so that I have to keep a slight positive pressure on the yoke to maintain the descent path. It avoids having to compensate for the 'nose drop' when you close the throttle. Closing the power removes the nose up pitch and the aircraft is now trimmed for the S&L portion of the flare.

All you need to do then is to look at the end of the RWY and hold it off and wait for the main wheels to touchdown first (slight backward pressure on the yoke)

It works well for the female pilots that is not always physically that strong. I have recommended it even to some open minded male pilots as well with great success.

Word of caution though: Click the trimmer only once you are asured of landing as you will have a very strong nose-up pitch in the go-around requiring lots of fwd push on the yoke. Be aware that a loss of attention (e.g. reading the checklist, radio work, etc, your natural reaction is to relax the fwd pressure an it may lead to stalling the aircraft! So, do the 'click-click on the auto-trimmer as late as possible before reducing the power for the flare.

Some heavy jets also have a load relief auto trimer that is active until 500ft AGL (radio alt) and you will be unable to fly with fwd pressure on the stick.

Flew all my landings like that, even on heavy jets, and almost always ended with a smooth landing.

[SpyderPig]

I was recently told about trimming it a little nose up late final, has improved my landings in the 210. Also I tend to fly it like a twin with having a little power on until just before touch down, I find it works well.

I know when my landings start getting sloppy its because Im looking ahead of the nose, not at the end of the runway.

I have just over 220 hours on type on find I still find ways to handle it better almost every day, great machine! :ok:

[morno]

Landing with power on...... Yeah, if you're keen to have an overrun one day.

That's not how Mr Cessna intended for his aircraft to be operated, so don't!!

Nail that Vref speed (1.3 Vs) and then flare just at the right time, you should be achieving good landings, regardless of the aircraft type.

morno

[AerobaticArcher]

A couple of winds back on the trim short final (once landing assured) always worked for me, just to help with the flare, especially when the aircraft had a forward CoG. As others have said, Vref speed over the fence, eyes to the end of the runway and power off. If you are heavy, trickle the power off, being mindful of your sink rate, but always land with power at idle. The aircraft (like any other) needs to be flown by you.

[haughtney1]

There seems to be a variance in opinion on this one, my opinion for what its worth is, fly the thing to the flare, FLARE....and hold it hold it HOLD the attitude...whilst reducing the power to idle=nice accurate landing.
Remember your aiming point and plan backwards accordingly, the C210 will float for a verrrrrrrrrry longtime if you keep the power on.

[BlatantLiar]

Nail that Vref speed (1.3 Vs) and then flare just at the right time, you should be achieving good landings, regardless of the aircraft type.

Unfortunately its just not that simple for some people. The few walls of text on how to land a 210 shows it.

[morno]

Why isn't it that simple? It's the basics of flying.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Ixixly
*
Don't be afraid to keep just a bit of power on with it, depending on the length of the runway you're landing on of course.

Kinda like getting used to flying a Twin, its heavier, sometimes needs just a tiny amount of power left on until touch down to make it work!


What complete and utter bull****!
Nothing personal here, but if you can't learn how to land an aircraft without power, how the hell are you gonna put it in on a short strip when the distance matters?

As for flying a twin, I don't fly any twin, piston or turbine, with power on at touchdown. It might be there until you round out, but if you aren't feeling the aircraft, you just need a bit more experience. there's no magic "this is how you get perfect landings".

Slam's suggestion of eyes down the runway is one of the better ones, but ask your CP if you're really worried, not a frickin internet bulletin board! At least he/she can fly with you and offer some constructive advice based on what they see.

[strim]

In 6 months time you'll ask yourself why you even started this thread.

Practice makes perfect. Learn to self critique. You'll be fine mate, greasers are on the horizon, but remember, a solid touchdown in the zone is far better than a greaser half way down.

[framer]

I wouldn't listen to most of what's on here. Don't wind in trim and don't land the thing with power on. If you avoid getting the basics right by doing these things then one day you might be landing on a short slippery strip with a gusty 20kt crosswind that decides to go quartering tail and it'll end up ugly.
Just keep practicing. Looking down to the end of the strip is good advice.
I bet if you do that by the time you have 100hrs on it (not much really) you will be as good as wood.
Also, those home made techniques won't transfer to bigger faster cleaner aircraft and that means you'll have to learn the basics when you are transferring onto a machine that won't tolerate errors of judgement as well as the 210. That's the last thing you want to be concentrating on when starting a new job.
If I were in your shoes ( and I was ten years ago) I would decide to re assess at 100 hours. Why don't you come back on this thread at 100hours and tell us how you are going, I bet you'll be fine. Good luck and don't fly through any thunderstorms between now and then (that was my biggest mistake!)

[framer]

Ah I see Strim and makeithappencaptain have beaten me to it.....listen to them not the other rubbish :ok:

[Dora-9]

Nirak:

I can't help but aggreeing with the innumerable posters who have disagreed with yours!

Did you really use the trim to assist in the flare in "a heavy jet"??? This would suggest (to me) either shoddy standards or that a Checker never caught you doing this.

And:

Some heavy jets also have a load relief auto trimer that is active until 500ft AGL (radio alt) and you will be unable to fly with fwd pressure on the stick.
Which heavy jet? I flew the heaviest civil one of them all (at least until the advent of the A380) and I don't recall an load relief auto trimmer - but it was a long time ago (getting my defence in early here)...

[Nirak]

No, I did not use auto-trim to 'assist the flare'.

If you read carefully, I am saying that you can not fly the aircraft B737-400) deliberately out of trim above 500 ft AGL and it is also not good practice to do so due to distractions like checklists, etc. I also did not run the trimmer during the flare, as it will strain the auto-trimmer machanism.

You need click-click the trimmer just before you start reducing the thrust, pushing slightly forward (not to change your touchdown point) and relieving the forward pressure as you close the throttles. Relieving the fwd pressure actually makes the aircraft flare itself. Looking at the end of the runway, you will have a natural tendency to pull just hard enough to touch the main wheels first.

Yes, the checkies were happy with it as long as I was aware of the stronger nose-up pitch on the go-around. So, it is better to go click-click once you are asured of the landing.

[gassed budgie]

The 210 is an easy aeroplane to land. Just remember though it will feel different to land (as in the pitch force required to get the aircraft in the landing attitude) with a forward C of G as opposed to an aft C of G.
The rest is pretty much what morno suggested earlier. 75 kts down final and get the power off at roundout. If you don't, it will only lengthen the landing process and give youself more time to fcuk things up. By the way I retard the power all the way to idle regardless how heavy the aircraft is.
And when you do look down the end of the runway as someone above suggested, don't forget to note what attitude the aircraft is in (that's why we down the end in the first place).
If the attitude appears to be a bit on the flat side, do something about, apply a bit more back pressure on the yoke and keep the nose well and truly clear of the pavement. Works every time!

[AmarokGTI]

Do NOT land the aircraft with power on. It is incorrect technique and it will get you in trouble.

[flywatcher]

Here we are, well into the second page, with instructions on how to land a 210. If the aviation industry finds it necessary to use this forum as an instructional medium on how to fly well, then the future outlook is not very positive.

[ranfurly]

I agree with the last post. There is nothing special about landing a 210 other than correct trim

[Sonny Hammond]

Is Nirak for real? That is possibly the worst advice for flare technique I've ever heard.
I've flown from 2 seater small up to 450 seater big from the left seat and that flare technique described by Nirak is trouble waiting to happen...

Read the POH and do that.
Final Approach 1.3 Vs (in trim) power to idle as you round out and use those big muscles to flare.
Always a greaser? Nope but should be ALWAYS in the right spot.

That what counts.

[The Green Goblin]

I wouldn't categorically say you don't land any aircraft with power on.

Flying a 207 sometimes you would land with full power and back it off as the wheels touched.

In a metro it would be irresponsible to not have some torque applied when the wheels touched down. Usually in the order of 10-15%. If you didn't you would find out about it pretty quick when the props disked up and she fell out of the sky, dislocating your back with the subsequent arrival.

It all depends on the type of wing your machine employs and it's designed wing loading.

A 210 has a beautiful high aspect ratio laminar aerofoil. It wants to fly even when it's standing still. Due to this it typically won't require any power and a cool head would smoothly reduce power before instigating the flare with eyes at the far end of the runway.

However there are times that power may be required. Thermal turbulence, Windshear, aft C of G, hanging off the back of the drag curve etc etc.

All of this comes down to flying the aeroplane in a manner appropriate to the conditions, the weight and the nature of the landing surface.

This is called experience and something you will gain with time.

For now, nail the speed until crossing the threshold, eyes on the end of the runway and use your peripheral vision to judge sink rate, your forward vision to maintain centerline correcting drift with your feet, and raise the nose slowly to place it on the end of the runway.

Enjoy. She is a fun ship to fly and one of the finer singles for a budding commercial pilot to get hold of. :E

[Aussie Bob]

To those folks who insist that down the runway is the only place to look:

"Then I look out to the side as the runway appears below, look out to the side and judge the height, gage the height of the tall wheels above the grass, and with a shudder the stall and the airplane is down and rolling"

Richard Bach
"Biplane"

Looking down the runway, just another OWT ....

[tomrut]

Thanks for all the constructive comments regarding the landings! I am up in the air tomorrow so will definitely focus on some of the helpful hints given here as well as those from my CP and supervisors. Really appreciate all those pilots with many more hrs passing on their wealth of knowledge to the newbies in GA like myself. I'm pretty sure there will be many more people reading this thread and taking some of its advice.
Thanks again.

[jas24zzk]

Looking down the runway, just another OWT ....

I disagree to a point. Looking down the runway is a great start point to begining the flare.
Once into the flare I prefer to use my peripheral for judgement

But thats just me and the way I was taught. It also happens to work for me, and I'd hazard, countless others.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Looking down the runway, just another OWT ....

Yep, words from the master here. Only 3000+ hours teaching people how to land aircraft properly and all this time the reason they're landing smoothly and not porpoising down the runway was bull****!

Whooda thunk it?:rolleyes:

[jas24zzk]

Makeithappens post following mine, made really go back over the thread, and think back to advice given to me over the years.

I have a lil 210 time, less than you. I didn't find it an overly difficult aeroplane to land. I took the advice given to me by a qualified test pilot, and that was learn the numbers and do everything as you would normally do. It's an aeroplane, and if you get the numbers right then it will do what the manufacturer says it will. Magically my landings improved.

Happens post pointed me back to what I alluded to in my post. The 210 is no mystery ship. You know how to land an aeroplane, otherwise you wouldn't have a CPL. Go back to your basics...the stuff that you know that works, and go from there.

Failing that, the guy that is giving you ICUS, pound him for input about what is going wrong for you. Given he hasn't said too much, its either bugger all, or he wants you to work it out, or be man enough to ask...

ICUS is a funny thing. Many pilots see it as a chore...the smart ones use it to pick the brains of the guy watching. If he has nothing to offer, then ask for a new ICUS commander so you do learn something.


Jas

[Lodown]

Tomrut, silly suggestion perhaps, but make sure you haven't got your toes on the brakes.

[compressor stall]

And remember a smooth landing starts a few hundred feet earlier- on speed and profile.

[aileron_69]

Where is 210 Terry, godfather of all 210 pilots when we need him? He'll know the answer to the enigma that is the perfect touchdown in the salubrious Centurion.

[Nirak]

Tomrut

How did the landings go?