MOVING TO CANADA

[sheronfrd]

Hi friends.
I am planning to move canada with canadian pr. ( no citizenship) . Im 31 years and holding faa ppl and aircraft engineering degree. Im planning to start my cpl once i reach there. Will i be able to join with an airline onece i get my cpl done ?

Thanks in advance

[Pace152]

Hey,

Have you already got Canadian Permanent Residency or planning to apply when you're there?

[sheronfrd]

hi im in srilanka now and since i am having a degree and work experience , i can apply it from srilanka

[etopsmonkey]

Does Fedex have a crew base in Canada? I see Fedex have large operation at YYZ.

[phil@LFPG]

for the work in aviation there is a lot of chance that you ll get a three years waiting period before getting a security clearance.

you said you can apply for your permanent resident directly with a company or just the embassy ?

to get a working permit you ll need to have one of the most look for qualifications and work experiences. but i think there is no new applicants before next july 20013. there is over 1 millions requests up to now that has not been treated....

wish you the best.

[jurassic]

You don't simply "join an airline" with a CPL. You need to build hours and work your way up. There are no "cadet" type programs in Canada. There is a long list of Canadian pilots building hours and working the crappy jobs to get their shot at an airline job.
It sounds like you know nothing about aviation in Canada.

[Pace152]

I think you'd struggle to be honest.

Your best bet is either to try and get the Canadian school that does your CPL to give you a job at the end as an instructor (which they probably wont be able to do due to them having to prove you could do the job and a Canadian couldn't) or meet a nice Canadian girl :)

If you've got a few years of aerospace engineering experience you might be able to get PR off that when they restart accepting apps in 2013.

[sheronfrd]

i really dont know about aviation in canada. thats why i wanted to get some information from you guys. thanks a lot for your replies. yeah. i am struggling to make my career as a pilot. Because you have one life. you got to do what you like to be or what you like to do. :)

[av8r76]

Ah, the customary PFO posts as there are plenty of local folks 'paying their dues' replies. That being said a little bit of research on this forum and other Canada centric threads should answer most of your queries.
Just don't expect a warm welcome. Good luck.

[bunkhog]

No...that's right AV8TR. We should gladly welcome more foreign pilots into Canada to take jobs from Canadians. It's only the CANADIAN thing to do!

Sunwing has used up a bunch of positions with foreigners that guys here could have filled. And let's face it....flying a 737 at a charter that probably won't be around in 5 years, like most of them, is a "time building" job. But one that someone that was born in Canada should get.

Carriers overseas that are hiring ex-pats in droves are doing so not because they are cheap labour, they are doing it because there are no qualified, experienced pilots to choose from on their home soil. Not so in Canada...or the US. It sort of rips me when someone "decides" they are going to just slide into canada and take a great job, and if there isn't one...what the heck...the socialist regime that is Canuskistan will take care of them. Whos' paying for that? I am. And meanwhile, my son struggles trying to find a flying job.

Dog nuts!

[lilflyboy262...2]

If the guy can get a visa, whats your problem? And your point here is moot, this guy is not walking into Sunwing.

From what I have experienced so far, the people who put in the hard yards, get out there and actively look for a job, get hired.
The ones who sit at home sending out half assed CV's to every email they can find, hoping to get a nibble, don't get hired.

People come from across the globe, then spend weeks traveling around by bus, train and hitchhiking to find a job. (After investing thousands of dollars into the local economy and keep instructors flying)
Poor little hard done by Canadian boy doesn't leave daddies study and cries about not getting a job.
This is Africa all over again, just colder.

[Pace152]

Bunkhog so if your boy was offered a job flying for an airline in the UK or anywhere in Europe (where there are plenty of unemployed local pilots) you'd tell him to turn it down cos it wouldn't be fair to the locals would you :rolleyes:

[Firestorm]

I really hadn't expected such an attitude from Canadians, but maybe that says more about my naivety than anything else.

In my career in the airlines I have flown with, amongst others, Canadians, and many European nationalities, both in the England, my home country. I have found that they have been welcomed into the airline, and into the country. My point is that people move both ways, into your country (which ever it may be), and out of your country. I have no idea what the net figures are but it doesn't matter.

I may well be making a move to Canada myself in the near future. My girlfriend is a headmistress in primary schools, and a Canadian national. She has been living in England for about 17 years, and has decided to return home. I really hope that I can go with her, and continue my career as a pilot in Canada, and I really hope I will be made a bit more welcome than some of you seem to be making sheronfrd, and as welcome as we might make you if you came to live and work in our countries.

[bunkhog]

I was talking about the German pilots flying in Canadian cockpits. Separate thread...the reciprocity in canadian pilots working overseas doesn't seem very balanced.

He's left daddy's study. But now is competing for jobs with people who weren't raised here. Unemployment is high enough in this country that I don't think we need to keep handing out visas or letting hundreds of thousands of unemployed immigrants arrive to compete for what scraps there are. I just think maybe a moratorium on immigration until we take care of locals may be worth thinking about.

[Firestorm]

Fair point, but the world is a bigger place than that nowadays. These things never seem very balanced, and organised by people much further up the payscale than you or I. You can try lobbying your unions on these issues, and if there is a case to answer I am sure that they will take it all forward. Sounding off on bulletin boards like this never achieves a great deal, although I know the feeling of having a good rant from time to time.

As it happens I applied for the Canjet contract as I have several thousand hours on the 737, but as I don't have 200 hours on the NG I am not eligible. The 200 hour requirement was requested by the Canadian department for immigration (or which ever relevant department in the Government) to ensure that Canjet were 'importing' an experience level that wasn't available in Canada. I can't believe there aren't sufficient pilots of the advertised experience in the country, but apparently there aren't.

[sheronfrd]

How is the demand for cargo pilots in Canada ? Some airlines required 1500 total flying hours with 500 gas turbine experience for junior first officers ?

[altiplano]

I think you will find that people who immigrate here and live here as permanent residents or become citizens are more than welcome by coworkers. This is a country built on immigration from centuries past. But don't expect a welcome mat if you are just looking for a temp workers visa or something along those lines.

I think you are setting yourself up for failure if you have an idea to get a 705 airline job at any airline in this country as a low timer just starting out. As a low timer you should expect air taxi or commuter options maybe getting a start as a Beech or Metro F/O if you're lucky.

Cargo airlines here such as Kelowna Flightcraft (Purolator) hire pretty high time guys as well to ride sideways in the 27s or DC10s - even the Caravan guys at Morningstar have ATPLs, several thousand hours and did a few years in the back of the 27 before they were able to get that spot...

Good luck coming here but know that you will not get a job without residency first and then you will work your ass off to compete with 100's of guys trying to get the handful of jobs that will take guys getting their first start.

[av8r76]

altiplano,
I'd love to agree with you, but there is a tinge of animosity whenever someone solicits the general opinion about chances for a newbie, in aviation and the country.
That is self evident in the numerous posts in this thread and other similiar ones on this forum. As mentioned ever so eloquently, it is an invasion. Yikes.

And sheren, the requirements you see online or on job postings are MINIMUM requirements. Selected candidates far exceed these when they are offered the job. Canadian aviation is tough and extremely competitive. There are guys with thousands of hours looking for a job. Mind you, there are jobs available, but the TnC's are deplorable.
I'm glad you have your PR and are contributing to the 'invasion', but research the plight of Canadian aviation before making the life altering leap to this side of the world. Is UL that bad or not hiring? What about Mihin?

[Pace152]

In the UK we've thought for ages that all somebody has to do is hide in the back of a truck to Dover then step off and claim their citizenship, free phone, house and life time subscription to unemployment benefits. Thing is even though it sometimes feels like that it probably isn't that easy (may'be ;))

If you live in Canada you probably think that about Canada but it really is not easy for someone to get PR for Canada, and nearly impossible as a Pilot. Unless you have a skill/occupation that Canada really needs you aint getting in. If you dont believe me have a look at the Canadian immigration website and assume that you're not a Canadian and are trying to get residency, you'll see how difficult it is.

[PacWest]

Avia8r --


I'm glad you have your PR and are contributing to the 'invasion'

He doesn't have a 'permanent residency' .. he claims he will apply for it in Sri Lanka ?? well, good luck with that since the process takes a couple or more years or longer or --never! Under the new Immigration rules it has/will become even less likely that p.r. will be granted unless there are or is a definitive job offer/contract which a Canadian cannot fill.

[shutupanfly]

As a pilot with thousands of hours, family in Canada etc etc, I have applied/contacted/begged to get into Canada unsuccessfully. Unless you marry a Canadian or have a few years experience in another "wanted" job category(and then you can only work in that category, not as a pilot) you will not be able to get in. I Know This Cos I'm Trying Myself........and have been for the last 5 years!! I'm even considering studying something else and getting a few years experience in another field to get my family over there. Good Luck to you all, if you do get in, let me know how you did it and I'll try the same route.

[ChrisVJ]

Bureaucracies always run about five years behind events. When I came here I got points for children (almost enough to get in on that alone,) points for some money to start a business (not that much,) and points for my cabinet making City and Guilds, (lots of points.) Of course when I actually got here I found the place was awash with German and Swiss Cabinet Makers, really, really good ones, in a completely different league to me, all wandering around looking for jobs. Apparently the policy had been running for a few years and I was the latecomer!

Permanent Residency or Immigration is usually about you ability to fit the current policy. Otherwise it is pretty well impossible.

[grounded27]

FedEx feeds YYZ from the USA with several wide body aircraft a day. Morningstar Air Express operates 5 752's plus a handful of feeders in Canada for FedEx.

[sheronfrd]

UL still recruiting cadet pilots 3 times a year . But i need to get my cpl first . im still holding ppl only. i need to earn some money and start cpl and finish it off within couple of months. and mihin not recruiting. they have a type training programme which you have to pay alot.

[sps1013]

Can I just say to all of you who begrudge an "alien" taking natives jobs that you should really try living and looking for jobs in the UK!!!!!

Its not just aviation that is full of foreigners either.

As has already been mentioned, the back of a lorry route into Dover seems to work and we never catch all of them, but thats ok for others in the rest of the world, its not in your back yard!:ok:

[ea306]

I am Canadian.

I have a relative who immigrated 13 years ago. Was an Electrical Engineer. Had family willing to sponsor him. Was told he did not have enough points to come to Canada. He had taken upon himself to get a Commercial Pilot's Lisense during the time he waited for his immigration interview. Right after being told he did not have enough points, he put his Canadian Pilots License on the interviewers desk and asked if his new Canadian License was worth any points. It was and he got in.

Well that was the easy part. He had to work the ramp pump gas, work the counter, loose jobs due to companys going bust.... BUT with perseverance he did finally get work flying light twins making deplorable wages and many times struggled to support himself. Worked for CAR 703 operators, then progressed to CAR 704 and finally CAR 705. Today he is a Captain with a Canadian Airline and he too is now a Canadian Citizen.

It is a very very long hard road. He got lucky in the end...but he could easily of not made it in aviation and have had to resort to his previous profession.

Canada is built on immigration and is a good opportunity for those willing to work hard to make a life for themselves. But don't expect that you will necessarily easily land into an airline job without going through all the hoops that most Canadian Pilots have had to go through to establish their careers.

You can do it. It will be difficult....but you can do it.

Wishing you the best of success.

[sheronfrd]

Thanks mate.. Will see how it goes . Else get instructor rating and gain some more hours ...

[macbuilders]

yes you can start..but after you got citizenship

[treykule]

"Bunkhog has it spot on. It is not necessarily immigration that it the issue. It is the Reciprocity. Try applying for an immigrants Visa to China and see how far you get."

Notice my location? I am a Canadian. I did it. So what is your point? That you dont really know diddley about that of which you speak? There is 875 of us here that I know of..And at least 100 or them are Canadian..Are there 100 Chinese nationals flying in Canada right now? Or does it not count for some reason or other unlike Sunwings .

To the OP.. Tough hall for a fresh CPL in Canada.
To firestorm..Welcome..We are not all like the posters here. Some of us have even been outside the borders of Canada.

I spent over 30 years flying in Canada.. Retired,and have now flown all over the world..The whole foreigner issue was started by a couple of Air
Transit types who realized Sunwings business model was better, and so made all sorts of claims about unfairness, none of which were supported by any evidence at all.Just inuendo...In fact, as the facts do come out, it appears over the last five years it turned out to be pretty balanced... And the cause got taken up by those in Canada that cant see past their nose and believe that even if you are not qualified, if you are Canadian, you should damn well get the job.

My family has hated foreigners ever since we came to this country.!:O

As to daddy's poor widdle boy...tell him to suck it up buttercup. Its a tough world out there.

[Left Coaster]

Trey... a few quick questions...how many Chinese pilots are waiting to gain enough experience to fill a seat in a medium sized jet in China...what is the total experience level these nationals have when they do get a job? Who pays for their training to even get the frozen ATPL (or whatever they need) and where is their training done? And are there enough to keep up with expansion? Does the company they eventually join pay for their endorsement? I would guess you are over there to fill a DEC as expansion allows for it? No qualified nationals with the experience. Your situation v the problem the home boys is a different problem...you aren't stealing any one's job, just filling in until they can staff it with a national, and they will. Then you retire or find another job. The situation in Canada is that there are qualified guys who can do the job, but it's cheaper and easier for these companies to play silly bugger with the rules and use foreign pilots to do Canadian work...not hard to see why these guys have a beef...why the vitriol though? Would you feel the same if it was you? Or would you have to suck it up buttercup as well?

[single chime]

+1 LC,
if the foreign pilot problem was presented by Air Canada, I can tell you, you would not see a single euro pilot over the next winter. (Don't forget, EK is not allowed extra landing slots to protect Canadian jobs. I guess some jobs are worth more than others...)
I fly abroad and I know I will win a one way ticket home the day my local replacement is ready. Don't think Sunwing has any such plan...

[nolimitholdem]

Sorry trey, but I'm an expat pilot too, and in this particular case you're just displaying your ignorance and if I dare say, your bias, which for some inexplicable reason seems to demonstrate a lack of respect for your former countrymen. There's a great letter posted on AvCanada at this link:

Letter to Citizenship and Immigration Canada (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83444)

that lays the issues out pretty succinctly, supported quite amply with a great deal of facts, contrary to your claim. The tone is pretty reasonable, compared with your attempt to portray the people fighting this battle as somehow overly entitled. (It's Air Transat, not transit. Come on.)

Sunwing has a better business model? I guess that's a matter of perspective. It certainly does seem to be benefiting them to manipulate the intent of labour regulation to lower their costs, but it still fails to convince me of the longterm benefit to Canadians, of providing an excess of jobs to non-Canadians. I can't disagree that Sunwing has managed to gain a competitive advantage through their practices. But "better", in any sort of sustainable way? I have my doubts, given the constant race to the bottom. Of course this is everywhere these days, but can you blame those losing their jobs for fighting it?

As Left Coaster points out, the expat situation in places like China and the ME is not analogous and you know it. You and I have jobs because there simply aren't enough local pilots to keep the expansion moving. Forget qualified, rated, whatever, there aren't enough, period. If there were, and when there are, you and I will be gone in a heartbeat. Don't try and imply we work due to the generosity of our host countries, so why are the Canadians being so stingy?

And I think you are confusing "qualified" with "type-rated". I hold a B777 command rating, but no 737NG rating (I do have the -300/500 rating). Yet with those, my Canadian passport, and 10,000+ hours of experience I am - according to Sunwing/Canjet - not as "qualified" as a non-Canadian with a fraction of that experience...and oh yeah, that NG rating he bought in Europe.

So at least be honest enough to not try and frame it like the scammers at these airlines and pretend it's about a lack of qualifications or qualified Canadian pilots. It's just dollars and cents. I could at least respect that sort of forthrightness somewhat. But then, if these companies actually admitted that I guess they'd have a harder time getting away with the practice. Far easier to post an ad in the back pages of a non-aviation publication, asking for a specific type rating, and then exploit the CIC's ignorance of aviation to plead hardship when *SURPRISE* they can't find any takers. Classic straw man.

You really do a disservice to people who at the least, have a right to air their grievances, by muddying the waters with meaningless comparisons to expat jobs in Asia and whatever issues you've had in your past with foreigners. This is simply a case of a company exploiting a loophole and a (typically) useless government agency, and getting called on it by the people affected.

I applaud them.

[treykule]

Interesting that you all can use words like scammers. Maniputlating the regulations! The regulations are what they are.
The wronglful use of a company name was intentional.
I was trying to be the devil's advocate. Looks like I did not a bad job.
Now,, the prime point people are trying to claim is that there are qualified pilots in Canada. So lets look at what the word "qualified" means.
Does it mean you have an ATPL, or does it mean you have a type rating, time on type, and are current? The whole argument is going to hinge on this. I suggest that there are not qualified pilots in Canada looking for seasonal work.Give me some numbers to prove me wrong. Pilots with current type ratings and time on type. Who are unemployed
Now, whether the situation over here is different or not is not only a moot point, but begs the question. It is about the same number of pilots working overseas as foreign pilots working in Canada. The specific reasons for why each are in another country can well vary. Here it is a shortage of "qualified" domestic pilots...And we are back to what qualified actually means. Contrary to belief there are pilots over here, but while they have the license, they lack the rating and experience on type..Pretty much the same as in Canada.

You will notice that the folks that use the word qualified never actually define what that is. For a temporary, seasonal pilot in Canada, it is pretty much the same as everywhere else..Look at the job ads..Type rating..Time on type, Current..How did you get your overseas job? Did you get it with no time on type? Did you get it without a current rating?

The unfairness group on one hand states that no actual stats are available, and then goes on to conclude that they are unfair.

And then when some company looks at the rules, policy , and regulations, and complies with them, people call them scammers, and claim they are maniipulating. As far as I can tell, Sunwing is playing by the rules.

The real issue is that Sunwings is saving a whole pile of money on training costs, which, if they had to pay it for seasonal employees would not work well. That savings is giving them a competative advantage. But politicans will not get involved so it has been personalized to make it seem like Canada has a bunch of pilots who are qualified are being denied work due to foreign pilots.

The people behind this unfairness work for a competitor. It is that simple in my mind.

Now flame away.. I have thick skin.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Watch what will happen to Canadian expats when Canada closes it's borders to foriegn pilots.
As one poster said before "He will win a one way ticket home again."

Problem won't be resolved because experienced guys will be back home again.

It's easy to scoff at, but I have seen it happen before.

[Left Coaster]

Lilflyboy...how do you figure that? Canada's expat pilots will be sent home by whom? It's unclear by your statement who exactly you are referring to...are you saying that if Canada ends it's current policy of balanced (well maybe not to some people) numbers of temporary workers, or stops these companies from wetleases, that all the Canadian expat pilots around the world will be sent home? What a pants load that is! Let's see your facts please?

[single chime]

Lilflyboy, if Canada closes its borders tomorrow, nothing will happen to us expats. When country x has enough local "talent", then they will kick us out (a la SQ). In the sandpit, we will be just fine for a looong while. China is another case, just go to your local flight school and have a look at their students. BTW, the chinese students have their training FULLY paid by their gov. including type rating. And Trey, I was hired as an experienced non-typed pilot here in the ME, didn't have to pay a dime!

[lilflyboy262...2]

European and African countries for a start. For them, a political "Well screw you too" move is far more important than logic.

Middle East and China are far less fickle. As long as they are crewed, right up until the point you are no longer needed, they will be all smile and handshakes.

Although in saying that. Maybe Canada could learn from the African countries. All they need is a handful of locals that are out of work and the permits stop flowing.

[Win94]

Hey sheron. Good luck with your endeavor of coming to Canada. It's not easy from your point of career, but get some experience and you'll be fine. Canada always needs immigrants. They are in the process of changing the deal, but that won't last forever. Aviation is hard to get into here. So if you have some jet time it helps huge.
Good luck

[sheronfrd]

Thanks win94. I am looking into Alberta. Have no idea what the aviation background of Alberta .