CX A340, YPPD. [Archive]

nitpicker330

11th Jul 2012, 02:38

It's a while since I flew a 737 but if you had to I'm sure you could stop it in 3 to 4000' quite easily at light weights.

You could stop the A330 in 4000' if you really tried hard.

Better to go off the end of a prepared surface at 50 knots than ditch or force land in a paddock!!

ramius315

11th Jul 2012, 05:40

Or better still divert to your Alternate (that has ample rwy length), re-gas and continue to your destination later.

What do some of you smoke? :rolleyes:

AQIS Boigu

11th Jul 2012, 05:55

Perth Airport Chief Executive Officer Brad Geatches said the fog visibility was down to about 300m when the sun rose around 7am.

He said numerous flights had been disrupted but there was nothing the airport could do about it until the fog lifted.

"It doesn't matter what sort of airport infrastructure you have when visibility is down to 300 metres nothing happens,'' Mr Geatches said.

Mr Geatches said when the flog lifts things "will get back to normal fairly quickly'' but it could take three to four hours to clear backlogged flights.:ugh::ugh:

nitpicker330

11th Jul 2012, 06:47

Idiot obviously hasn't heard of CAT 3B which could allow ops in RVR's down to 100m if they bothered to install it.

No excuse, the "infrastructure" IS available mate.

3 Holer

11th Jul 2012, 06:47

"It doesn't matter what sort of airport infrastructure you have when visibility is down to 300 metres nothing happens,'' Mr Geatches said.

Bull****! CAT III B will get you in with an RVR of between 200m and 50m.

YPPH,YMML and YSSY should all be equipped with CAT III ILS - end of story!

nitpicker330

11th Jul 2012, 06:52

Perth of all places should have it........no excuses I'm afraid. :=

Alien Role

11th Jul 2012, 06:52

AND SYD.......
Was it mon' or tues' morning? Northerly drift bringing fog over the airport and numerous missed approaches because of the rediculous 1500m vis required due to the lack of HIAL.
Any reasonable International airport would have pilons built in to the Bay with HIAL installed or better still CAT3b capability.
But no, not SYD... ALL THE REVENUE IS BEING USED TO "IMPROVE" THE SHOPPING MALLS IN THE TERMINALS and BUILD MULTI-STOREY CARPARKS AND OFFICE BLOCKS!!

Role on....

nitpicker330

11th Jul 2012, 07:02

I agree SYD should too but at least you can divert to other major Airports within about 1 hour but Perth is so isolated it should have it.

Capn Bloggs

11th Jul 2012, 07:18

When fog rolls in over WA, does Rotnest Island cop it as well?

Curious, for a 737-800, what would be the shortest runway you would try to land on if you had to, would Rotnest at 1200m be acceptable, pavement considerations aside.
I thought this was a Professional Pilots site? Stick to the galley NMC! :p

PS: Rather than buns at Rotto for morning tea, I'd take my chances on an autoland at YPPH. :ok:

Captain Dart

11th Jul 2012, 07:34

Cathay Pacific Airbuses can go down to 'NO' DH and 75 m RVR. As I stated on another thread, we can even do this in Delhi, India...

But not Perth.

Imagine all the 'carbons' pumped out out by all these diversions.

The facilities at Australian airports that are not shopping malls or car parks are a goddam disgrace.

Nautilus Blue

11th Jul 2012, 07:36

"It doesn't matter what sort of airport infrastructure you have when visibility is down to 300 metres nothing happens,'' Mr Geatches said.

Translation,

"It doesn't matter how poor the infrastructure is, our customers can't go elsewhere, so upgrading it makes no sense."

Remember PH is a privately owned monopoly, everything that happens flows logically from that.

BuzzBox

11th Jul 2012, 07:41

Or better still divert to your Alternate

Last night's TAF for Perth:

TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010

No fog forecast and no requirement for an alternate for arrivals into Perth early this morning. CX would have departed Hong Kong under 'Island Reserve' rules, ie two hours holding fuel at destination. The nearest alternates we can plan for Perth are Adelaide or Bali, requiring at least another 12 tonnes of fuel. That reduces the available payload somewhat, and isn't normally planned unless the forecast requires it.

Capn Bloggs

11th Jul 2012, 08:45

TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
Early evening, 12/11, light winds and it had been raining on and off all day. :confused: :cool: :=

History | Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/history/station/94610/2012/7/10/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&theprefset=SHOWMETAR&theprefvalue=1)

And some wonder why we get paranoid about the weather in the wild west...

Boomerang

11th Jul 2012, 08:53

And who will pay for the CatIII ILS systems and maintenance? It would be lovely to have it for those few flights per year affected by fog in Perth but I'm sure Perth Airport are happy to accept the cost of weather diversions are borne by the airlines at the moment. I can't see things changing soon, unless an augmented GPS RNP-AR approach is introduced.

Car RAMROD

11th Jul 2012, 09:39

CX137 finally departed PD at 1225 local- they sat on the ground for nearly 5.5 hrs (from 0705). Bet the passengers enjoyed being stuck on the plane for that one!
Far cry from the 1hr 15mins they reckoned to refuel too (which is where the crew change requirement came into play I suppose).

They sounded quite stressed on Ctr.

Suppose if it wasn't for the same fog delaying the domestic jets to Hedland (amongst all other places), it would have been a bit more awkward on the ground down there.

But, at least it all worked out safely in the end.

B772

11th Jul 2012, 10:02

From memory the last "big" a/c at YPPD was Royal Brunei and prior to that the Lufthansa B747-400.

nitpicker330

11th Jul 2012, 10:13

Any delay refueling in PHE would have ran the crew out of hours as they operated overnight from HKG.

Any arrival after 08:15 local would have meant the crew extending using discretion. As they only landed PIE at 07:15 they were pushing s*** uphill to get the job done back to PER.

Car RAMROD

11th Jul 2012, 10:53

What about the AN124's that infrequently stop by? That not "big" enough?? :E

I think one showed up in Hedland less than a few months ago from memory.

Wally Mk2

11th Jul 2012, 11:43

Aussie aviation is like the band Skyhooks.......living in the 70's! (great music though:-)
As ugly as this sounds the only way Australia will come into the 21st century as far as our Aviation goes is to have a major crash of a heavy metal plane due mainly poor infrastructure at Aussie dromes before any of the pollies get off their shiny polished backsides & act forcing the Drome owners to make it safer!!:ugh:
But like all things in this backward country the 'gate' is left swinging in the breeze!!

Wmk2

AmarokGTI

11th Jul 2012, 13:03

Now what were those CTAF calls again?

Transition Layer

11th Jul 2012, 13:23

TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010

And some wonder why get paranoid about the weather in the wild west...

Spot on Bloggs, and it doesn't help that the forecasters are clueless!

Saw a METAR around the time that TAF was issued, with a temp dew point split of 12/11 and the Vis already down to 6000m but still nothing on the TAF suggesting fog.

:rolleyes:

clear to land

11th Jul 2012, 14:12

EK 777 No DH and 75 RVR. Last time I used it in anger was at Delhi-the 3rd world!!!!!!!! Agreed, PH should have IIIb due to lack of divert options. Guess it would make less money than a carpark though :ugh:

flexthrust

11th Jul 2012, 17:24

Australian airports are a joke. Finally they put Cat 3B on 16 in MEL yet it's still a VOR onto 34? Is it 2012 or 1912. Wake up Australia !

Capt Groper

11th Jul 2012, 18:39

No problem with a VOR or GPS/RNAV to YMML34, Northerly winds requiring RWY 34 will have relatively good visibility. When Foggy = light winds so only one RWY needing ILS CAT 3B.

But YPPH has these odd times when a CAT 3B ILS is needed. Where can a B747 or A380 go if LM is Fogged in too! YPPD and YPEK RWYs yes but exits and parking become a serious issue. An A380 will end up parked at the end of a RWY with very HOT brakes.

Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.

Mr.Buzzy

11th Jul 2012, 21:28

Like everything else in this country......... Return on investment!

Then again, what is the lesser evil, money grabbing privately owned infrastructure or facilities run by the flunkies better known as government?

Time for a coup!

Bbbbbbzbzbzbsbzbzbsbzb

neville_nobody

11th Jul 2012, 22:04

I'm sure Perth Airport are happy to accept the cost of weather diversions are borne by the airlines at the moment

Diversions are paid for by the airline not the airport, unless they take them to court.

BuzzBox

11th Jul 2012, 22:28

I agree, the infrastructure available to pilots (and controllers) at most Australian airports is a farce. Non-precision approaches at international airports in this day and age? Give me a break.

Airports such as SIN, BKK and HKG (to name a few) have ILS approaches to all runways, surface movement radar and low vis ops. The facilities at Perth are particularly tragic given its isolation and lack of alternates for large aircraft. As others have commented, some airports in so-called third world countries have better facilities than airports in Australia.

Then again, if you want the latest Prada handbag, just head for the nearest international terminal.

Capt Kremin

11th Jul 2012, 23:27

Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.

Ahhh there it is. Been waiting for it. Will this myth never die??

Of course some airlines seem to ignore the fact that the visibility is below landing minima at Perth and land anyway. Which prompted a rather cryptic notam being published last year reminding everyone that Perth does not have low vis ILS procedures.

BuzzBox

11th Jul 2012, 23:56

...some airlines seem to ignore the fact that the visibility is below landing minima at Perth and land anyway.

Yes indeed. One of our aircraft couldn't depart one night because the vis was below 350m. They gave up and were returning to the bay when a 737 from a certain populous country just to the north of Australia landed in vis around 300m.

Capn Bloggs

12th Jul 2012, 00:24

Airlines 'must want' fog upgrade
Kate Emery and Michelle Wheeler, The West Australian

July 12, 2012, 6:24 am

Perth Airport says it will go ahead with an upgrade that would allow planes to operate in reduced visibility and potentially avoid chaos caused by fog only if airlines push for it.

Fog delayed outgoing flights yesterday and caused some incoming flights to be diverted to Brisbane, Alice Springs, Adelaide, Kalgoorlie and Port Hedland.

Up to 60 domestic and international flights were affected. It was the third time in as many months fog delays have hit the airport.

Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said an upgrade to the kind of infrastructure used at many airports in Europe and the US would cost up to $20 million but would only help in landings, not departures. "If airlines would like Perth Airport to be upgraded . . . Perth Airport will proceed with the upgrade," he said. "To date, airlines have indicated that an upgrade is not necessary, given Perth Airport is affected by fog infrequently."

However, a Qantas spokesman said the airline was "still in discussions" with the airport about infrastructure upgrades to enable landings in low visibility.

Dianne McLernon was waiting at the international airport to pick up her son, who had been due in on a flight from Hong Kong that was diverted to Port Hedland. "He's not well, so he's really looking forward to getting home," she said.

The Weather Bureau said the fog was caused by moist conditions, light winds and clear skies.

Towering Q

12th Jul 2012, 01:22

Dianne McLernon was waiting at the international airport to pick up her son, who had been due in on a flight from Hong Kong that was diverted to Port Hedland. "He's not well, so he's really looking forward to getting home," she said.

Port Hedland can do that to a person.:E

Transition Layer

12th Jul 2012, 01:38

Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said an upgrade to the kind of infrastructure used at many airports in Europe and the US would cost up to $20 million but would only help in landings, not departures.

Wrong. A ground movement radar system and better lighting (which would be needed for 'proper' low vis ops) would help end the ridiculous one aircraft movement at a time charade that goes on at the moment during the morning peak if there's fog.

But seriously, what do we expect from a state that is only just about to embrace Sunday trading!

Captain Dart

12th Jul 2012, 02:16

What a load of rubbish from an airport manager. With proper LVO equipment departures can be made in fog down to 150 m Runway Visual Range...

like we can in India :hmm:.

Tangan

12th Jul 2012, 02:30

Or 125m RVR ike we can in Melbourne....

Brad Geatches is seriously out of touch

BuzzBox

12th Jul 2012, 02:38

Brad Geatches is seriously out of touch

Typical corporate mouthpiece - all spin, no substance and no credibility.

Goat Whisperer

12th Jul 2012, 02:56

Will someone in the (preferably Western Australian) media please hold these clowns to account. Ben Sandilands ?? Geoffrey Thomas ??

If an international airport manager has never heard of Cat II/III approaches and he is either unqualified or lying.

Jack Ranga

12th Jul 2012, 04:40

Of course some airlines seem to ignore the fact that the visibility is below landing minima at Perth and land anyway.

And it happened again, from a LCC not based in Oz. Careful which airline you buy tickets on :=

Geoffrey Thomas ?? Are you serious?? What would that ar$eclown know about aviation.............

scandistralian

12th Jul 2012, 04:57

The WAC clowns can't even fix leaking aerobridges let alone upgrade to LVO capability. I would love for Brad to actually name names of Airlines who have stated upgrades to existing infrastructure are not necessary, and if indeed this is true maybe they should :mad: off to Jandakot instead.

How about adding another 400 meters to RWY 06/24 and putting some decent lighting in while they are at it.

Nautilus Blue

12th Jul 2012, 05:22

Perth Airport says it will go ahead with an upgrade that would allow planes to operate in reduced visibility and potentially avoid chaos caused by fog only if airlines push for it.

Translation

Perth Airport says it will go ahead with an upgrade that would allow planes to operate in reduced visibility and potentially avoid chaos caused by fog only if airlines PAY for it.

nitpicker330

12th Jul 2012, 05:38

Tangan:-- just curious but for T/O my outfit allow only 150 m in MEL.
SYD without LVO requires 550 m as it doesn't have the lights etc.

How'd your company get 125 m in SYD?

nitpicker330

12th Jul 2012, 05:56

I've just written to Peter Overton at 60 Mins suggesting a story be done on why Perth doesn't have AWO.

scandistralian

12th Jul 2012, 06:14

:D. Good call Nitpicker, keep us posted on how it goes

nitpicker330

12th Jul 2012, 06:29

Not holding my breath.....

scandistralian

12th Jul 2012, 07:15

I love this B/S about fog being so rare that it is not an issue, one wonders whether or not they factored in just how isolated and dodgy the weather in Perth can be.

Just to add fuel to the fire, with all these airlines flying into Perth without fuel for an alternate, what would happen if an aircraft became disabled on the runway and infringed both 03/06?

CAT 1, no RWY centreline lights, 45m wide runway, at an airport that year round is exposed to most of the worlds known inclement weather issues (windshear/thunderstorms/hail/fog/turbulence/hot weather etc.) but there again according to certain airline managers we are overpaid whinging bus drivers... :ugh:

Also, what's the ACN of an A340 at MLW? It must have been pushing boundaries landing in YPPD, given the PCN is 39 (+10% = 43 with overload...)

down3gr33ns

12th Jul 2012, 08:35

My dim recollection is that YPPD was only an emergency alternate in CX. So was it an emergency - were they that short of fuel - it wasn't declared as such although as one poster put it "They sounded quite stressed on Ctr."?

The PCN observation is interesting. Can anyone enlighten us to the ACN of an A340 although I doubt it was at MLW?

HEALY

12th Jul 2012, 08:50

The flight departed with Island Reserve which for those not aware means 2 hours of fuel at cruise power for holding over the airport instead of carrying a suitable alternate like Adelaide or even back to Bali. There is certain requirements for weather etc that have to be met for this to be used instead of an alternate. As mentioned before seeing the weather report for the trip shows no fog forecast. Seeing light rain up till early evening then CAVOK from 3 am onwards didn't seem to trigger alarm bells for the met office:confused:
Without knowing the actual fuel uplifted it seems the Island Reserve fuel luckily just matched the diversion fuel to Headland based on wether or not they trucked all the way to Perth first.
7 hours and 30 mins thru the night 2 crew to be greeted with fog and bare bones minimum fuel to Port Headland would probably induce a nervous tone on any radio call.

BuzzBox

12th Jul 2012, 08:51

At CX, YPPD can't be planned as a destination alternate, but it can be used once airborne if the weather turns pooey after the flight dispatched with island reserve fuel. It can also be used as a 'normal' ERA, but not as an ETOPS ERA.

As for the PCN, it's around the 50 mark, and yes, CX does have a pavement concession.

There was no emergency, they simply diverted while they still had enough fuel to get there with the necessary reserves intact. I'd probably sound a bit stressed too, if I'd been up all night (2 crew ops) and then had to divert to an unfamiliar, uncontrolled airfield in the middle of nowhere.

nitpicker330

12th Jul 2012, 09:56

Not a problem for our Perth based fellas. I'm sure they know the area quite well.

wheels_down

12th Jul 2012, 10:07

Where exactly does CX have Aussie based flight crew?

Captain Dart

12th Jul 2012, 10:21

Exactly PER, ADL, MEL, SYD, BNE.

Although there is much posturing and crying 'poor' from CX due to the cost of complying with Aussie labour law.

Flight crew morale is not good and most are working like dogs so I cannot imagine too many PER crew volunteering their services on days off for a 'rescue' of the flight in question.

nitpicker330

12th Jul 2012, 10:54

No one volunteered, the entire crew sched to op CX 136 at 0705 on the day were sent on QF up to PHE as they were already at the Airport waiting for the Jet!!

They then found another crew to fly it later back to HKG on 136.

Keg

12th Jul 2012, 11:58

Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.

Ahhh there it is. Been waiting for it. Will this myth never die??

To be fair to Groper Captain Kremin, he left out the bit where the deadheading pilot was an Ansett captain rather than a QF driver! :rolleyes: :ugh: :E

For the benefit of the folks that haven't heard of this one before, IT NEVER FREAKING HAPPENED.

Awol57

12th Jul 2012, 14:25

I thought you were the other Captain Keg? :E:ok:

3 Holer

12th Jul 2012, 22:23

...............what would happen if an aircraft became disabled on the runway and infringed both 03/06?

.........the same thing if Aunty had aggetts..................she'ld be Uncle!:ok:

Keg

12th Jul 2012, 23:04

Lol. Depending on when that mythical event was supposed to occur I was somewhere between 8 and 21. The myth also changes occasionally from a jumbo to early operation of the QF 767. I could never work out why a paxing Ansett crew was on a QF 747 (or 767) international flight into Perth. :ok:

I'm not sure if Groper's myth is based upon the 747 (Captain Hatton-Ward I think checking out Captain Ross McDonald in command) that diverted to Learmonth from Perth due to fog (YPLM forecast CAVOK) and then they missed out on the NDB approach into LM due to low cloud. I think the story goes that they subsequently did a let down over water on the RAD ALT until they got visual and then scud ran back into LM. Circa early to mid '80s I think. Kremin may know a bit more about it. I'm sure we've discussed it before here.

Anyway, enough of the thread diversion, let's talk about how CX was about to ditch off the coast of Port Hedland due to not being able to turn on the runway lights! :ugh: :E

Towering Q

13th Jul 2012, 00:45

let's talk about how CX was about to ditch off the coast of Port Hedland due to not being able to turn on the runway lights!

I'm guessing the CX crews don't get much practice with PAL, the Hedland lights can be a little temperamental with the 3 one second blasts.

However, if all else failed they could've called Mo, he's never far away.:ok:

MyNameIsIs

13th Jul 2012, 02:09

I'm guessing the CX crews don't get much practice with PAL, the Hedland lights can be a little temperamental with the 3 one second blasts.

However, if all else failed they could've called Mo, he's never far away.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Yeah if all else fails, grab the guys/girls on the ground. Mo will sort em out in Port!

Didn't need runway lights being daylight when they landed. How long since their last landing without a PAPI??? :E

Did they use 32? Which PAPI did they follow, the one on the left or right? Right one indicates better!

Nautilus Blue

13th Jul 2012, 07:01

A quick question for those that fly into PH, particularly from overseas. How and when do you check for wx updates after departure?

TheWholeEnchilada

13th Jul 2012, 07:42

Nautilus Blue, ACARS or VOLMET. How often? Depends upon the forecast & time of day for the arrival. For an early morning arrival in winter with light winds and given the remoteness of PER, I personally watch the TTF every half an hour, paying particular attention to the WBD trend.

Nautilus Blue

13th Jul 2012, 08:05

TheWholeEnchilada thanks. The reason I asked is they we only pass amended wx to a/c within one hours flying time. I was never really convinced that was enough, but if you're checking the TTF yourself every 30 mins its more than enough.

BuzzBox

13th Jul 2012, 08:21

How and when do you check for wx updates after departure?

Frequently, especially in winter! On a flight down from HKG we would normally update the weather before proceeding past Bali, and again before passing our PNR for Bali, which is typically around COBRA. If there was any hint of fog I'd be checking more frequently. We usually do it by ACARS and also check the D-ATIS (when it works!).

Keg

13th Jul 2012, 10:54

Didn't need runway lights being daylight when they landed.

That won't be the story in 10 years time! :} :ok:

down3gr33ns

13th Jul 2012, 11:38

How long since their last landing without a PAPI??? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

And, now, without an ILS ..................................

No wonder they needed a crew change!!!!!

wateroff

13th Jul 2012, 11:44

Modern technology is a wonderful thing, both in aircraft and on the ground. It's a shame Australia lags so far behind in infrastructure, and operating mentality. Some of the Next Generation 'Warbirds' in this country are only just getting ACARS now, and only for Admin purposes. "Come in Tokyo" - Further to the ILS to ILS 'nervousness' = there are some very capable guys flying out of the Harbour, (in the RHS :E) - well done to them I say.

swh

13th Jul 2012, 16:15

And, now, without an ILS ..................................

They probably did the straight in RNAV, which would give them a pseudo glide path anyway. CX does not do NDB approaches any more.

It's a shame Australia lags so far behind in infrastructure, and operating mentality.

Actually if they sort out the GBAS gear in SYD, that would be the best way to go. I think it would give Perth, Pierce, Gin Gin, Rottnest, and Jandakot additional precision approach capability with the one transmitter. They could have curved approaches which would help with traffic arriving from the north landing towards the north.