View Full Version : Corporate or Airline?
Could somebody please give me any advice on corporate flying? I've been doing my own research, but it would be great if those with experience could let me know who, if any, are the best owners or companies to work for. Any tips would be gratefully received.
what next
7th Jul 2012, 17:15
Hello!
I've been doing my own research...
Have you also tried the "Search" function of this forum? This topic comes up every second week.
... but it would be great if those with experience could let me know who, if any, are the best owners or companies to work for.
Define "the best" first, please. Most corporate pilots that I have met over the years are individualists who have their own idea of how to conduct their lifes. The best employer is always the one who allows _you_ to live _your_ life beside the job. I for example hate long range flying and being away from home for more than two or three days in a row. I value being home most evenings higher than the size of the aircraft, the money I earn or a fixed duty roster. I also like doing other professional and private activities beside flying (none of which can be performed from a hotel room somewhere in some desert), therefore my best employer must allow part-time employment with the off-days spent at my home base (and not in some hotel room in some desert). Luckily I have found my personal best employer, but I doubt that you would be as happy as I am doing my job.
Therefore please give us some hints of what you think is important about good emploment and we might be able to point you in the right direction!
Happy landings
max
Thank you very much for your frankly patronising reply. I'm not some cadet just starting out and with a young, don't have the luxury of searching every page on this forum. I was only asking for some advice. If you and your helpful nature are what they're looking for in the corporate world, I think I'll stay where I am.
what next took the time to write a long and interesting response to you, and you aren't grateful......
If you and your helpful nature are what they're looking for in the corporate world, I think I'll stay where I am. Sounds like an excellent idea :)
Mutt
Globally Challenged
7th Jul 2012, 18:33
Yep - stay where you are with that attitude. Corporate flying is made up of small teams which can't easily absorb petulance.
ford cortina
7th Jul 2012, 19:12
Seeing you don't like being asked to give us some idea of what you want? I think your better off where you are
what next
7th Jul 2012, 20:21
Hello again!
... frankly patronising reply. I'm not some cadet just starting out ...
Sorry, this was really not my intention. But I'm not a native English speaker (Bavarian intead, a language even most Germans don't understand ;) ) so maybe I just picked the wrong words.
On the other hand, you just joined one of the longest established pilot forums on the internet (where have you been all those years?) and asked a question that has been asked hundreds of times already without telling us the least bit about yourself. What do you expect?
I have given you the answer that I usually give to my students (instructing is one of my favorite - yes, I really enjoy doing it! - off-duty activities) when they ask me if it's worth applying for jobs in business aviation. To everybody his own.
One caveat comes to mind before I shut down my computer for the night: If you really intend to work with one of the "best" companies in corporate aviation, this will mean joining the queue at the end. Whatever your previous experience has been, you will start as co-pilot (or first officer if you prefer - I never did) on their smallest airplane.
Good luck,
max
FrankR
7th Jul 2012, 20:53
... must be a full moon somewhere.
Arkwright
7th Jul 2012, 21:50
what next
Your English is excellent, and I'm sad to say that you put a lot of native English speakers to shame, judging some some of the grammar, spelling and punctuation errors I see on this forum daily!
I see that the OP alg has yet to come back and reply, and I'm still not convinced that he isn't a troll.........
buzzc152
7th Jul 2012, 22:59
alg, I think you've completely misread what 'what next' wrote and made a fool of yourself in the process. Be a man and apologise.
kenhughes
8th Jul 2012, 02:24
alg, are you still a regional airline flight attendant? (See, "Search" can be useful). If so, it may have been wise to make that clear in your original post.
In the corporate flight environment where I work, it's very rare for there to be FAs on a flight and I would imagine it's similar in many other places. Charter, on the other hand, has many clients who request an FA. I would certainly think you would have a better chance of employment in charter work rather than corporate.
I'm based in the US, it may be different in Europe.
FrankR
8th Jul 2012, 03:01
Hi Alg.
This issue of flying corporate vs. airline is a rather heated debate, which crops up here most every month.
I'm sure you would have been treated better had you prefaced your question by saying that you were currently a FA for an airline, and wanted to switch over.
... There is lots for you to learn, as it's quite a different job with a vastly different skills and perspective, but a much better deal for cabin crew.
For sure it's a different story than for the pilot side of the door.
PM me (or post) if you have specific questions.
FR
Klimax
8th Jul 2012, 04:24
Alg,
Dont take ppl's replies in here personal. I think bottom line is that the same (your question) question has been asked over and over again and the same ppl have taken their time to reply the same replies again and again.
Whatever you have done in life before you should by now know that there are no short cuts and in this case searching the pprune forums will lead you to answers.
Best of luck,
Klimax
Northern_Driver
8th Jul 2012, 13:31
I have see both and my answer would be definately Airline. At least in Europe, corporate world pilots have poorer contractual terms than in the airlines business. Not talking about entrylevel positions now but on a longer run. Ryanair and Norwegian are ofcourse a chapter of their own.
Take the first job that is offered and work your way up from there. On the way you will see which one is better for you. :)
His dudeness
8th Jul 2012, 14:23
Bavarian
Now, THAT explains a lot Max ! :p
Greets
h_d
sevenstrokeroll
8th Jul 2012, 15:04
ALG:
corporate or airline...while there may be a very rare exception now and then, the answer is : AIRLINE PILOT is the best job.
after all, the pilot license you hold isn't a CORPORATE Transport PILOT LICENSE, its an AIRLINE TRANSPORT Pilot LIC (cert).
There are some exceptions of course...but the airline pilot has the best flying job (civilian).
Klimax
8th Jul 2012, 16:58
I did 11 years of airline flying with two different flag carriers. Surely it the right choice for most hamsters. But if one actually likes the smell of jet A and mingling around real airplanes the corporate and private aviation has a lot more to offer than running around the wheel. Nothing is only good. As far as I'm concerned airline flying sucks - but I think someone already said - it really depends on the employer and the customer(s) as well. In an airline environment the customers doesn't matter, you dont get to see them anyways. In corporate/private aviation you are more in touch with what is going on and you can actually make a difference and feel you made your money worth. I wouldn't have been without the airline experience - at least now I can say I did it, learned a lot from it, and know with good faith at its no fun.
Good luck with you choice :ok:
buzztee
9th Jul 2012, 12:02
Airline is a good way to start.But after some years it gets boring.I do both half a month regional airline the other half air taxi.In the end it depends a lot on you personal preferences.
Northern_Driver
10th Jul 2012, 18:52
Yes true. But in the end I still believe that airline will offer you more stability (if there is any left in this business) which is not affected by the mood changes of owners, corporate management etc.. most of the time you are more in charge of your personal life with airlines than with bizjet companies.
But definately you get to fly to more intersting places in biz aviation than with airlines. With airlines you "can" just be a number. It also has it benefits ;)
tommoutrie
10th Jul 2012, 20:48
airline is where all the proper sensible pilots work.
corporate is where all the wierdo's hang out.
I know cos I are one.
Tom
(but you don't get to keep a rhino in your room in the airlines..)
Stick35
11th Jul 2012, 07:44
I would go for the airline. Perhaps i have a wrong perception about it, but you have a much more stable roster and more possibilities in terms of career development. Plus a better private life. Im now 36, flying 5 years in corporate and im really sick of it:yuk:. I took this job as a stepping stone, to get in the airline but i must admit: it is virtually getting impossible. 2 reasons: the age and not having a 737/a320 rating. As a corporate pilot, you marketvalue is just much less. (gulfstream not taking into account.). Plus in corporate aviation, there is so much bs involved. Waiting, flying to the maintenance to get things fixed, getting a call in the evening to fly to some sh*thole etc. By the end of this year i might get unemployed. And you know what? I even dont care about that. I also think that flying in the airline it is much more professional. So if you can join the airline, even with a low salary, grab it please. On the long term you will not regret it.:ok:
im really sick of it Try 5 years in Ryanair or Wizz and see how you feel.....
There is no single answer to this question as there is such a varied selection of airline and corporate operators.
Mutt
Metronaut
11th Jul 2012, 09:29
Give me $20,000USD (16,000euro)/month, 12 days of work a month, 300 hours/year, set crew of 2 other guys..... HELL YEA....corporate anyday!
Globally Challenged
11th Jul 2012, 09:32
I'm happier and feel more secure in my bizjet job than I would working for all but the largest of legacy carriers. Having been made redundant once before, I now work for a single owner who flies 400+ hours a year and 'should' the euro go pop, he personally stands to make a significant amount of money - not so with an airline.
When we fly somewhere nice, we then hole up in a 4+ star hotel (of our own choosing - no more airport hotels for me!!) for the 2 weeks or so that he stays there (typically east and west coast USA). No minimum rest, nowhere near max duty - although unfortunately no roster either.
That said, between the 3 pilots, we work out pretty well and I was at home for 14 of the first 16 weeks of my first baby's life.
I get paid the same regardless of whether I fly (I only miss out on per-diems). So I work a fraction of what the LoCo guys do and get paid a fair bit more. No hostie though - so we do have to clean the aircraft ourself - sod it ... where is that Ryanair application form ... :suspect:
Horses for courses and all that :ok:
Stick35
11th Jul 2012, 12:07
@mutt
At least with ryanair you have a solid roster, so you can plan also things, being home every night and most important of all, your marketvalue is much higher. So after 5 years you can find yourself a job in ME or asia. Plus the salary is most of the time higher. And yes there are some corporate outfits outthere who pay very well, but they are very hard to get in. And it is also just a few of them.
It is not only the money, but tou also have to see on the long term. "how is my marketvalue if i get jobless".
At least with ryanair you have a solid roster, so you can plan also things, being home every night and most important of all, your marketvalue is much higher. So after 5 years you can find yourself a job in ME or asia. But that isnt the fault of corporate aviation, but rather the aircraft that you are flying.
And yes there are some corporate outfits out there who pay very well, Yep, there are, some actually treat their pilots quite well, with hotel suites, days off, money, and fun flying.
But this is one of the reasons i said you cant compare, there are people like Globally Challenged who appear to love what they are doing, and those like you who are stuck due to their rating and hate what they are doing.... But I will guarantee you that you will find the same in the airline world.
Mutt
Although perhaps not as relevant to the OP I thought I might chime in from the US with an opinion from this perspective.
I have flown corporate my entire career and always very happy about it. 3 jobs in 25 years and all good jobs. Typical career growth with bigger aircraft types and salaries as the years go by. I still love to go to work every day as much as I did on the first day.
I really enjoy the individual freedom a corporate job provides. Sure, we have SOPs but the flight is operated as I would like and I always take great pride at the end of a challenging day. We also enjoy all the usual perks...4star hotels and a week in Manhattan, Milan or Maui, etc.
I have had the good fortune all along to avoid the crappy employers. This, I feel, is a result of always setting the bar high and waiting for the GOOD job to come along. After 10 years in the Astra I had my eyes on a Challenger which later parlaid into a GLEX. Just my story but many others like it.
There's always a reason someone is hiring and it's prudent to find out why the last guy left. Avert your eyes from the shiny plane and find out about the quality of life at that job...that will soon be YOUR life. You might save yourself a lot of trouble. Once in the "Crap Job Vortex" it's difficult to get out. I know of many examples.
A good corporate pilot has to think for himself and have good decision making skills....in and out of the cockpit. A 10,000 hour airline pilot won't always make a good corporate pilot. He often doesn't have the skill set. Some people are more suited to the airline world.
I have never worked for an airline but many of my friends did and some still do. Continental/United, TWA/America West/US Airways...I only hear griping about one thing or another and the future looks bleak here in the US. No one seems very happy. When I fly as an airline passenger I must say the environment, at least in the US, seems pretty miserable too. There could be a good airline out there, I don't know, but it's not obvious to me.
When I started my career in the late 80s a job with United Airlines was the Holy Grail of flying jobs. "Set for Life" they would say. Sure glad I landed in the corporate sector.
Just my opinion...after 25 years in the biz.
I stopped participating in these chats for a while because my well intentioned remarks usually enticed a know-it-all or 2 to reply with hateful and ignorant comments. Standing by.
Stick35
11th Jul 2012, 14:38
@ksjc
very nice post of you. Always good to hear an opinion of an expert.
I might be wrong, but i think the corporate world in the US is much different than the european one. I always believed, it is just the perception i have, is that the us corporates pays much better than the european ones.
PPRuNeUser0215
11th Jul 2012, 16:14
Hi
I have done both and I am really happy I did. Had I done airline only, I think I would have felt that my career would have been somewhat "incomplete". The other way around is true too.
But I have been also lucky to work for good airline or corporate/GA operators with decent money and time off (bar one who was awful but then again I didn't stick around more than 3 months).
I don't know which one is best... My feeling is that there are more opportunities in the airline industry in terms of jobs available (simple, there are more airline employees than in the GA world). That is not to say that all are great opportunities, far from it. Many are, in my view quite rubbish and I do hope that I never have to fly for such type of Ops.
Just as it is true that in GA, there are many rubbish ops but also some excellent ones. Getting a hand on it being the challenge.
In GA, I enjoyed the variety, the colleagues, the contact with Pax and general spirit.
Will I change again ? Well, it is all down to how happy I am. Never been the kind of kind who likes to whinge too long at his job/company without ever taking the right action... Which was to get another one.
Yet I have always stayed years where I was so I am not totally unstable either.
The ability to do a good job and the enjoyment from it is what I am after.
604guy
11th Jul 2012, 17:14
Did some regional airline stuff at the very start of my career in the mid - late '70s (so have a little bit of an awareness from that side of the house albeit not huge), but a corporate opportunity came my way in late 1980 and I jumped at it. 31+ years later, all with the same corporate operator, I have never looked back.
I agree with a couple of previous posters with regard to the corporate aviation sector in North America vs other areas of the globe. From what I see, the folks I talk to and what I read on sites such as this one, there are indeed vast differences depending on which side of the Atlantic you are.
For me, I am paid the same as a legacy carrier 320/757 etc Captain at the top of their range, a couple of additional benefits in the package, regularly trained to an equivalent standard and the job provides enough variety and mission satisfaction to keep it enjoyable. In the Great White North, the corporate sector is also governed by a regulatory regime that provides for many (or in some cases all) of the same standard operating practices etc as our brethren in the airline world. But yes, there is the lack of a fixed roster and being able to plan your life much more than a week in advance other than vacation of course.
Having said the above I can appreciate that the corporate world is not for everyone nor is the airline world. I sometimes wonder, if we are totally honest with ourselves, if it's partly a case of where the bulk of our experience is and therefore where we are "most comfortable" because it's what we know.
At the end of the day from my perspective, I enjoy getting up in the morning and going to work. Being able to honestly say that after more than three decades to me is a definite plus. :)