Cost of Owning a Plane?????

[iwant2fly]

I am a first-time poster and aspiring pilot. Before I start working toward my PPL, I would like some insight on how much it costs to own a small, single-engine plane.

I have an idea of the initial cost of a used plane, but am ignorant to the other costs associated with owning a plane such as insurance, maintenence....

I can handle the initial outlay, but not sure about all the extras.

Does anyone on this board own their own plane, and if so can you give me some insight. Your help would be greatly apprciated. Or should I forget about owning because renting is the best way to go??

[twistedenginestarter]

This is one BIG question.

There are all sorts of factors here but if you remain with conventional aeroplanes like C152 and Pa28 it is difficult to get the cost down below about 80 GBP per hour in Rip-Off UK.

If you just love flying, get a microlight or something underneath the C152 line. These are seriously cheap to buy and run.

Tell us more about what you are thinking about doing - how many hours do you expect to do per annum. Do you want to be a commercial pilot?

[iwant2fly]

Thanks for your response twist. I realize that this is a huge question and there are lots of variables at work, but I am clueless about the cost of flying.

I can handle the initial cost of a small, used plane ($30-40,000). Will a plane that costs this much most likely turn into a money pit, or can I find a decent plane for this amount of money?

Also, I am ignorant about...

The maintenance costs for a Cessna 152 or equal.

The variable costs associated with flying one (fuel, oil, other expenses).

The cost of insurance as a % of the appraisel value of the plane.

I want to obtain my PPL for a couple of reasons. 1) I know I will have a great time and flying has to be a blast 2) we have family about 10 hours (driving) away that we visit often. We also like to travel during the summer time as my wife is a teacher and I am a professor. Flying seems like it would be very useful.

I apologize for such general and basic questions and hope that some of you experienced pilots shed some light for me.

[MAJIC9]

You'll be better off putting part of that money into getting your certificates first.. then decide what kind of a plane you need. Othwerise, you're pretty much bound to lose money.

As for your question.. it depends on what you get. Needless to say, you'll get some kind of a "entry level" plane.. 152 or so.. Gas is anywhere between 2-3 bucks a gallon.. and count on 6-10 gals per hour..

Insurance varies greatly.. but count on $1000+ (a year)..

Tiedown varies just as much.. 30-150 a month.. depends on where you base that plane at.

Annual.. well.. you never know with those.. count on 700-800 minimum.. and more or less, there's no upper bound (I guess throwing the plane away is the upper limit) ;)

[FlyingForFun]

iwanttofly,

Good point by MAJIC9 about putting money into the training first - no point buying a plane, then either discovering you don't have the money/time to get a license, or, even worse, you do half the training before changing your mind.

Something you might want to do is take a look at the For Sale board in your local airfield, or in one of the general aviation magazines. Look at shares in aircraft, rather than outright aircraft sales - even if you want to buy a plane outright. When a share comes up for sale, the ad will usually include a monthly charge and an hourly charge, as well as the purchase price. You can use this as a guide as to how much that type of plane will cost to run.

For example, if you see a particular type, where the group charge £50/month and £50/hour, and it's a 1/4 share that's for sale, the running costs would be approximately £200/month and £50/hour. (The monthly cost would be slightly lower, since there'd only be one pilot to insure, not four, but it's only a rough estimate...)


The other thing you might like to do is post this question on the Private Flying forum, which is more suited to non-commercial aviation.

Have fun!

FFF
----------------

[The man formerly known as]

One rough rule of thumb is an AC will cost whatever you paid for it over the next 3 years to run it.

A £40,000 ac would run in at about £10,000-13,000/year all in. So unless you are doing 100+ hours per year renting will probably be cheaper.

Very few people buy an ac outright, most either rent or share which costs less and is often more fun.

Whatever you decide good luck.

[Grim Reaper 14]

I've actually done a few calculations myself on this issue, and having taken all factors into account (which I won't detail here) my considered opinion, is "too feckin' much!!"

Does this assist.......?:(

[Fuji Abound]

One other thought to play devil's advocate - if you are certain about doing your PPL, and certain you want to own an aircraft yourself, you could go out and buy something like a 152 now (always ensuring it is on public cat.), learn to fly in it (it will be cheaper to hire an instructor for your own aircraft) and spend a year or two having some fun with it. By then you may have enough experience / desire to move on to something different amd maybe have not lost anything on your "investment". The other good thing I have seen some people do is rent the aircraft out to their flying club whilst they are learning - clubs are often short of aircraft during the summer months.

[Normal Bloke]

Learn first,
If you love it you should consider buying.
I finished my licence and bought a 150 which I kept for three years and then sold for a profit.
I then bought a 172 which I have had for three years and will soon sell for a profit.

My flying tastes have somewhat changed and I tend to fly about with three empty seats which seems rather pointless to me.

Therefore time for a change.

What I am saying is work out what you really want before you buy.

You might even want to try microlighting as well as Group A?

[ShyTorque]

I would say start learning first, get into the club mentality as it were.

That way you will get introduced to people who live, breathe and talk nothing but aeroplanes. You will hopefully get to see and experience a whole variation of types. You will quickly learn that there are many more types than C150s, many of them cheaper and more fun to own.

Good luck and whatever you decide on, enjoy!

ShyT

[Polar_stereographic]

Until about five years ago, I had owned outright 3 different aircraft. My experience of the cost of it is nothing like what's being quoted here. Sure you pick up some bills, but if you are serious about accumulating hours, it's an option worth considering.

My annual cost ran something like the following for a metal two seater, bearing in mind that it goes back a few years:

£700 - parking and landing fees
£1200 - insurance - optional but highly recomended
£150 - 50 hour check
£1500 - annual
£2000 - C or A

In my best year I did 400 hours. I then sold the a/c for £500 less than I paid for it, but allowing for a few extras that I picked up on the way, my dry hourly costs where less than 15 pounds an hour. exceptional I know, but if I'd done half the hours, these costs would double.

Now I know people who can better this. Buy a PFA aircraft, find a friendly inspector and the annual maintenance costs will come to less than £1000, asuming no nasties. That mind you, is the risk.

I've done about 1100 hours on my own aircrafts, and I recon on balance I'm still quids in. But, you do need to purchase wisely, and the sums only work out if you do plenty of flying, and that's the reason I'm now in a group as I no longer have the time to fly as often as I used to. You naturally also have the convenience of your chariot being available whenever you want it. Big plus for hours building.

Whatever and however you do it, make sure it's enjoyable.

PS

[paulo]

I would second the recommendation about doing the club thing, at least for a while. Spending a year around knowledgeable people is a great reassurance, rather than suddenly ending up 'on your own' after training where there's always your instructor to consult.

Not only that, you'll get a chance to form an opinion on what kind/condition of aircraft you would or wouldn't spend your money on.

[Flyboy-F33]

A wise precaution would be to allow 10 - 15% of the initial purchase price to over the first year, to get your new plane upto scratch. After that, the fixed costs are: Insurance £1-2k depending on type/cover etc. Parking £400 - £2k, Annual £1-2k
assuming no unforseen gremlins.
I bought a Piper Arrow 18 months ago. The first annual cost me £10k. needless to say it was rather a shock, but I just sold the plane and got all the money back, so not so bad after all.
If you are owning on your own...sure it doesnt make good economic sense, but what everyone else has failed to point out, is the satisfaction and pride of ownership, and just being able to turn up and fly whenever you feel like it.

[Polar_stereographic]

Quote

"but what everyone else has failed to point out, is the satisfaction and pride of ownership, and just being able to turn up and fly whenever you feel like it."

Urm, I did....

"You naturally also have the convenience of your chariot being available whenever you want it. Big plus for hours building"

I may have been lucky as i did not pick up any bills anywhere near the 10K mark. Having said that, I always chose fixed gear and props as my mission was to stay airbourne not get somewhere in a hurry.

PS

[Final 3 Greens]

For a 100hp, 2 seat plane, reckon on about £85 per hour (inc VAT) if you average 110 hours per annum.

This is for an average year, without engine replacement or C of A.

Best of luck!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or join the PFA, buy something on a PFA permit, and roughly halve that figure.

Or if you want to fly for fun on a budget, join the BMAA, buy a microlight, and halve it again. My 2-seat microlight, based at a small club strip, comes out roughly like this...

- Annual hangerage (derigged): £300
- Annual fee to inspector for permit: £85
- Annual fee to BMAA for permit: £70
- Annual expenditure on parts: £200 ish
- Annual maintenance cost, none, I do it myself.
- Annual club membership: £50

= Total annual fixed cost, £705.

Fuel and oil consumption is about 12 litres/hr on average at about 90ppl (including the oil, which I use the best I can get) comes out at about £11/hr fuel cost.

So, disregarding charts, personal kit and landing fees, this works out at about...

40 hrs pa = £29 ph
60 hrs pa = £23 ph
80 hrs pa = £20 ph.

Depreciation in my case is negligible. I paid £3,600 for it (including headsets, helmets, intercom, trailer and radio) in 1997. At the moment, identical aircraft are advertised (without the goodies) with similar hours at about £2,700 - £3,000.

Capability, very slow, a bit chilly, but lands anywhere and will do Popham - Rochester - Shoreham without refuelling (I've proved it) which personally I think is adequate. 12kn crosswind limit, total wind limit depends mostly upon which way your destination is. Legally limited to day-VMC, and the hours don't count for an ATPL.

Incidentally, I do fly light aircraft as well, I just prefer microlights for most recreational purposes.

G


N.B. And the license is cheaper. I'm told some schools will get you through the complete license for under £1,200 if you have your own aircraft to learn in, or about £2,000 if you haven't. Compare that even to a cheapie PPL(SEP) in the states !

[Fujiflyer]

iwant2fly


You don't indicate what your budget is likely to be. The running costs vary considerably depending on what you want to do with the a/c. (Number of seats, aerobatic capability, instrument panel fit, cruise speed and make, just to name some factors).

Most people who want the benefits of owning a plane opt to share by joining a group. This of course brings social benefits. That said, if I had unlimited money I'd have my own plane/s and an airfield as well. Unfortunately I have not.

Group flying is not cheap flying, our hourly costs (for a 7th share in a Fuji 200 aerobatic 4 seater) work out at an average of just over £120 per hour. Also be prepared to make some sort of contribution to the workload of running the group.

Pilot magazine did a few articles last summer on the topic of buying a plane. Additionally, a few years ago they ran an excellent article on group ownership, I think it was written by a Yorkshire man called Arnold Parker. It was a bit depressing at the time because it confirmed my worst beliefs as far as costs go, but then its better to find out beforehand rather than at the annual. If you are interested I'll email them to you (if I can find them).

I do tend to agree quite strongly, though with the suggestion that you should get your PPL first. After 5 years in aviation I would still need seek much advice if I was to decide to buy a plane. When I started flying I wouldn't have had a clue.

Fujiflyer :)

[slim_slag]

iwant2fly

Looks like you are in the States. Best thing for you to do is go down your local airfield and talk to other owners.

Some rules of thumb.

It costs one hell of a lot more than you think it will.
Some people say double the cost of the fuel and you have a rough cost per hour. Seems cheap to me and it's too dependant on how many hours you fly per year.
Some people say it only becomes cost effective to own if you do over 100 hours per year.
There is the old joke, the three 'F's. If it Flys, Floats or F**** it's cheaper to pay for it by the hour.
Don't expect to be able to use a light aircraft for commuting to see friends/family . You will get stuck somewhere when the weather changes, and plenty of people get killed when they think have to get home soon and start taking chances. Even with an instrument rating you can easily kill yourself with 'gethomeitis'.
If you really want to own, consider a leaseback scheme with your local flying school. Most people appear to regret doing this, but you might get lucky. Talk to other people who have done it.
Did I say it costs one hell of a lot more than you think it will?

Basically IMO owning a plane is a lifestyle decision, it's not a good financial move. Most people only make money because planes have appreciated in value very nicely over the past few years and they make a profit on selling. Who knows whether this will continue.

Definitely learn to fly first, then rent for a year. See if you get bored, most people pass then don't get to 100 hours, I've been told.

Good luck.

[Fujiflyer]

Good advice slim_slag.

Flying is cheap in the US compared with here :(


Fujiflyer

[nosefirsteverytime]

IMHO, I think buying a plane isn't much more than a bottomless pit unless it gets used v. often. If you can't put in the hours, there's plenty of have nots who'd be happy to hire your plane, for sight seeing, training or otherwise! I personally wouldn't buy a plane and have it all for myself, I'd hire it out when I know i can't get out to it. If you only get out to it once-twice a week/month, why have it gathering dust in a hanger all the other times?

[Whirlybird]

Something people often don't realise is that flying changes YOU.

You start with ideas of what you want to fly and why, then you learn about flying, and about aircraft, and it can all change. Some people find it's not all it's cracked up to be - you spend ages doing preflight checks and flight plans, only your passengers can relax once you're airborne, and plans get wrecked when the weather changes. Some of us discover that despite all that it's totally addictive, and it takes over our lives.

Along the way you find out what sort of aircraft you like or don't like, and how much you're likely to fly them. It may not be what you think. In my case, I'd had a PPL(A) for a year or so, and was all set to buy a share in something small and cheap, when I went for a helicopter trial lesson, and realised that for me nothing else would ever do. A friend went to the same helicopter school, and said he felt he'd never be able to fly one and wouldn't want to. We're all different so far as that goes.

So by all means ask questions, but you'll probably get better answers in your own country from people who are doing what you think you want to. Most of us are UK based, and it's very different over here. But I'd say give yourself some time; learn to fly, hire for a bit, and get a feel for what it's all about before making any definite decisions.

[Jepp]

Just a quick note,

A few years back a mate of mine owned a Piper Cherokee 140, One year he flew it just 50 hours and he told me that each hour had cost him £150, double the normal hire rate for this type of aircraft,
Nuff said ! :confused:

[iwant2fly]

Wow, you guys are great. Thanks to everyone for providing so much info. My next question was going to be whether or not all this advice would apply in the US. I am just a dumb American who thinks the world revolves around New York:) Whats a pound??;) I think someone already addressed this question.

I think I will go ahead with lessons. To get a PPL at my local airport costs about $4500-$5000 (for everything). From there, I think I will be able to get a pretty good idea of what do do as far as renting or buying. I'm not sure if there is a Flight Club nearby, but that sounds like a great option.

Thanks again, this forum is great!