CRM related accidents

[VijayMallya]

Teneriffe or the Mangalore air crash... Both accidents we all wish the co-pilot, who was a little more situationally aware, could have done something...

I'm trying to find out if there are any major accidents/incidents that took place where the CRM failed to help the flight crew in the cabin...

[Armchairflyer]

From what I recall I would name these six:

- Quite directly related to cockpit hierarchy
Flash Airlines Flight 604
Korean Air Cargo Flight 8509

- Others involving not quite ideal use of the available crew resources
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401
Turkish-Airlines Flight 1951
United Airlines Flight 173
British Midland Flight 92 (here the potentially helpful resources would arguably have involved cabin crew and passengers)

[Genghis the Engineer]

AF447?

You could perhaps argue that good communications but poor understanding helped three pilots convince themselves into doing absolutely the wrong thing?

G

[framer]

Depends what you think CRM is I guess. I can only think of one accident off the top of my head that couldn´t have been avoided with better CRM, (communication, decision making, situational awareness, or workload management).
So from my perspective the answer is ¨pretty much all of them¨.

[750XL]

Airblue Flight 202 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airblue_Flight_202)

http://dawncompk.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/caa_investigation_report_abq202.pdf

During initial climb, the Captain tested the knowledge of FO and used harsh words
and snobbish tone, contrary to the company procedures/norms.

8.4 The question / answer sessions, lecturing and advises by the mishap Captain
continued with intervals for about one hour after takeoff.

8.5 After the intermittent humiliating sessions, the FO generally remained quiet,
became under confident, submissive, and subsequently did not challenge the
Captain for any of his errors, breaches and violations.

[Left Coaster]

Have a look for the Air Canada DC9 fire and landing into Cincinati Ohio some years back..

[PEI_3721]

As per framer, it depends on how CRM is defined, and there are many definitions.
An overview might be “the application of human factors” – all those aspects in the human factors SHEL diagram. However, all that this might achieve is confirmation that human factors – CRM issues contribute to all accidents.
There would be greater value in stating which particular aspects of CRM were found to be weak, thus placing the human performance in context of the accident and situation. The usual examples are interpersonal relationship (an easy answer), or the interface with automation or documents (favourite sounding blocks); but more often aspects of individual performance provide insight to the reasons why the accident occurred – situation awareness, decision making, and judgement. The latter are much more difficult to grasp, understand, and teach, but of all of the CRM aspect perhaps these are the most frequent.

[3bars]

Helios Flight 522

[Genghis the Engineer]

AF447?

You could perhaps argue that good communications but poor understanding helped three pilots convince themselves into doing absolutely the wrong thing?

G

Having been reading the final BEA report over the last couple of days, I'd just like to retract what I said here.

G

[Centaurus]

Helios Flight 522

It is too easy to blame lack of CRM for everything. After all, despite countless papers on the benefits of CRM it boils down to commonsense. CRM is just another buzz-word. Both pilots missed the pressurisation controller in the wrong position during the pre-start checks. Both pilots missed the fact the aircraft failed to pressurise during the after take off checklist. The captain contacted maintenance by radio to discuss current indications. Is that not acceptable CRM? Lack of CRM had nothing to do with the cause of the crash. It was poor piloting ability

[Shell Management]

It was poor piloting ability

Correct but the unions would never let a unionised pilot say the truth in public about their brothers.:sad:

[Pugilistic Animus]

Correct but the unions would never let a unionised pilot say the truth in public about their brothers.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif
not all airlines are unionized... why don't you just stick to travel by slow boat....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[framer]

Centaurus.
The engineer left the selector in manual (poorly written maintenance manual? back of the clock? distracted? rushing? ) this action may not have been an error at all but if it wasn't then the writing of the manual was an issue.

The F/O missed it in his scan (rushing? being pushed along by the Captain? Distracted by ground staff?) all CRM issues.

They both missed it after take off ( complacent? distracted? rushing? poor discipline?) all CRM issues.

They misidentified the warning (probably poor training but communication may have been an issue)

When talking to the engineer on the radio the engineer asked if the PMS was selected to Manual or auto to which the Captain replied ¨where are the CB's for the .....¨(communication error which is CRM)

The cabin crew did not try to contact the flight deck after the masks dropped.....CRM communication issue.

Thats how I view it. I can't see an example of poor piloting ability in that accident, there was stuff all piloting going on as the a/p was engaged. But there was certainly lots of CRM cock-ups.
I suspect that what i see as good CRM you see as good piloting so at the end of the day we may be on the same page but 20 years apart in mindset.
Cheers, Framer.

[VinRouge]

Saudia flight 163 is possibly the best example of the effects of front end back end split, cultural hierarchical issues and poor CRM from all crew members bar the head cabin crew member. Poor CRM is far easier to de,onstrate than good CRM it seems....

Shocked to hear that some of our larger at fleets have a history of front end back end split, something that has bemused the herc fleet for years. The suggestion the front and rear crew going drinking and eating separately down route seems a bit, old fashioned?

[Sillypeoples]

Airlines hiring kids and buddies will be wrestling for years with how to get an FO to 1) catch what the captain didn't b) risk his job by saying something.

The solution is to hire pilots, not checklist readers that take orders...but they won't do that...and they don't have to. As long as the planes fly themselves and the FAA doesn't expect an airline pilot to be good enough to hand fly approaches, this nonsense will continue to go on.