Cabair Elstree

[LPlate]

Hello folks,

I'm looking to start a PPL course soon and have been thinking about using Cabair at Elstree since they're very near to where I live.

Has anyone else learnt there/heard anything about them? If anyone has actually learnt there fairly recently, any advise on good/bad instructors or other useful info?

Many thanks

LPlate

[A and C]

Dont do it ! Cabair have a number of ways of parting you from much more of your cash than you need to spend , you will find them using all sorts of "club rules" to restrict your flying and make it more expencive add to this landing fees ( at elstree it is £ 10 including VAT cabair will charge you £ 10 plus VAT ! ) extra charges for talking to instructors for more than a set time , positining aircraft on your wile you are under instruction and to all this they add VAT.

There are a number of good places to fly that will not rip you off and have clear and ethical buisiness practices .

If you go to the British airways flying club at wycombe the price is fully inclusive , the cabair price may look better on paper but all the add ons will leave you weel and truely out of pocket.

I would recomend that you take a look at both the BAFC and the WAC at wycombe WLAC at white waltham and the LFC at stapleford all these places have a good reputation and clear pricing structures.

[distaff_beancounter]

A and C
Per Pooleys Flight Guide 2002:-
"Elstree Landing Fee: Up to 1360kg £17.02 Plus VAT, 50% reduction for cash payments"
That comes to exactly £10.00 INC VAT, for cash payments.

LPlate
I would suggest that you look at all the schools in your area. You can also take trial lessons at several, if you wish, before you make up your mind. These can be logged towards your licence.

In aviation ,you tend to get what you pay for.
Cabair is certainly not the cheapest, but it does have high standards, high pass rates, newish aircraft & sufficient aircraft so that you do not have to wait.

[Normal Bloke]

Be careful

I went in to a CABAIR teaining establishment once and the instructors actually warned me off spending my money with them!!

I made a quick turnabout and went to a far more "settled" place elsewhere.

[sennadog]

Just curious......:confused:

Cabair always seem to get a complete slagging off when enquiries are made about them and I've yet to meet anyone (former employees or otherwise) who have something good to say about them.

What is that they do that p*sses so many people off?

LPlate - sorry to hijack your post but there must be some people who have had a good experience?

[djk]

Cabair display their costs on this site here

http://www.cabair.com/html/fw_prices1.htm

They also state

Flying School Membership, Landing fees, Approach fees, Flight test and
Test fees (where applicable) are not included.

And they charge approx £18 per landing (ex VAT) at Elstree
and at my home airfield of Rochester, they charge £5

which personally I think is a bit of a rip-off, I did 6 landings at Rochester on my last lesson and all I paid for was the standard fee for the lesson. Had I done that with Cabair it would have cost me at least an extra £30
I have no personal experience with Cabair but I do believe their fees are a tad steep

[Keef]

I've never flown from a Cabair place, so I don't have any direct experience.

BUT ... the club I used to use was taken over by Cabair. The membership fee went up by £100 plus VAT, the landing fees went up, and half the aircraft were sold off. Hiring a tourer became impossible.

We were told that the increased membership gave us access to ALL Cabair locations, but I couldn't for the life of me see why I'd want to go to those.

So I left and went to a different club. So did most of the other folks there. Cabair sold up and left soon after.

I spoke to some instructors I knew and their comments cannot be repeated!


:(

[CaptAirProx]

Thieving Gypsies.............That sums them up!

Lplate, as your close to Elstree, go and ask to meet the boss of Cabair....................then you will understand all that has been said b4 and in the future about Cabair.

[Southern Cross]

Well here is a vote for Cabair at Elstree. I did my IMC with them a few years back. Now I admit they are not the cheapest on the block. For schools near to London, that honour has to go to a small school in West London.

But the quality of instruction was excellent. I never had a plane or instructor availability issue, the quality of the course as a whole was very good, materials good etc. A professionally run course.

And in reality I would rather pay more and have to travel less for my lessons - if to save £5 on the landing fee and £10 per hour on the hire, I have to drive an extra 30 minutes each way, well, that's an easy decision, I'd pay the extra and save the mileage on my car, the petrol in my tank and my weekend time. Not everyone's view I am sure. But there then convenience is very high on my own wish list.

As someone else said, usually you get what you pay for.

[KitKatPacificuk]

I used to work for them, although I wont say what I think of the company I have flown with people who have been elsewhere and wasn't impressed with there flying. Not speaking for myself, but the guys who teach there are top. As for Elstree I would stay far away from the place as possible. Grumpy controllers, Nightmare parking, 4 different circuit patterns (None of them a standard rectangular shape), queues for departure and expensive to land.
If you do decide to go to Cabair Fly at Denham or one of the others. If you learn at Elstree it will be more hassel than it's worth.

Good Luck

[suction]

I don't have any experience of Elstree, but I gained my PPL with Cabair a couple of years ago and found them excellent. I went through the same headaches everyone does when choosing a training organisation. At the time Cabair were marginally cheaper than some of the other London organisations, but it's very difficult sometimes as you're not always comparing apples with apples - what's included in one organisations packages might not be in someone elses. Judging the value of these differences is not always easy. If you're interested in Denham - drop me an e-mail. I recently wrote quite an extensive e-mail to someone enquiring about flying training at Denham and I'll be happy to forward it on.

Whatever you decide to do and whoever you choose - the very best of luck with it.

Suction

[Wrong Stuff]

I originally did my PPL training with Cabair at Denham back in the eighties. Since then I've done the typical thing of letting things lapse and going back for more training a number of times, so I've flown with quite a range of different schools - one other at a west London airfield, one at Biggin, one at Elstree and one of the highly-recommended ones in the US.

The conclusion I've reached is that Cabair are undoubtedly expensive - and sometimes they really take the p*ss, which is why I think they're so hated - but the standard of training I received there was undoubtedly better than anywhere else I've been.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much of that was Cabair and how much was the CFI-effect (who was David Hoy during my time). The one common factor in all the schools I've trained at is the atmosphere and professionalism of the whole school does very much reflect its CFI. Maybe because certain setups attract certain people or maybe the other way round - after a while the CFI leaves his or her mark. There's definately a correlation though.

I'm currently pondering where to do my IMC (any recommendations gratefully received!) and because it's new stuff - not a revalidation - I really feel I need to be taught it properly. It probably won't be Cabair this time, but they'll make the short list.

[A and C]

wrong stuff for the IMC try the british airwats flying club at wycombe 01494 529262

[bertiethebadger]

I done my PPL with Cabair in both Blackbushe & then (much) later in Bournemouth & didn't have any problem with the training standards.

Having got lucky & had a commited instructor at Blackbush, I virtualy interviewed the instructor & the school & Bournemouth ( along with a few others ) to make sure I had an instructor I could get along with & who cared.

Most instructors @ Cabair are building up the hours & qualifications for ATPL & Cabair is just a stepping stone. There were some uncaring instructors so make sure you are happy with who they give you.

All of the instructors I saw briefed & debriefed fully. An hours flying gave me a 2 hour slot with an instructor.

They certainly aren't the cheapest, I can't defend them on that, but the standars are good & I don't know of any other schools where I would have done my QXC in a brand new >100hr Warrior.

I guess the main thing though is to check out the school & instructor for yourself. Be thorough, observe what is going on around you & the club. Go on the hour mark - that's change over time for the instructors.

Your going to spend a lot of money somewhere. Make sure they earn it & deserve your custom.

BtB

[Polar_stereographic]

As always, best to take a long hard look at the club/instructors and see if it's for you.

Remember, Cabair instructors are hour building. Sure, that's the case in other clubs, but I suspect more so at Cabair. Furthermore, I understand from friends who have been there, that it's not the happiest company to work for.

For myself, I could never see the point in paying their prices. There are a lot better and cheaper clubs around. I'd give them a miss personaly.

PS

[Southern Cross]

As a post script to my earlier post, having completed my IMC, I then did my multi-engine at Cabair Denham. I have always liked Denham very much - originally I rented aeroplanes from The Pilot Centre - they have very competitive prices indeed for a school so close to London.

I was introduced to my instructor, one Spencer Flack. Being from NZ, I had no idea at the time that Spencer had contributed so much to the UK aviation scene particularly in relation to warbirds. It was only by chance that he modestly admitted to having once owned, displayed and even raced the heavy metal.

He was a superb instructor and, even in the brief period of time that I knew him, obviously quite a character. It was a sad day indeed when the news of his motor racing accident came through.

If Cabair Denham was good enough for Spencer to give freely of his time (he was instructing for the fun of it) then I think it is fair to suggest that it ranks highly as a school. I thoroughly enjoyed flying there.

[A and C]

I would not like to put the reputation of spencer flack and the ultra sharp buisness practices of cabair on the same planet .

I have no doudt that spencer would give his best when instructing and perhaps without you knowing he was able to steer you away from some of the "sharper" cabair stunts.

[pistongone]

Whilest your looking around Esltree,dont even think of using Firecrest either!!! Cheaper yes,but you willspend even more time being told you cant fly etc etc,and they have a bad record of student accidents when the instructor was onboard!!!
Also Elstree RADAR!! Might keep you waiting at the hold for a couple of hours logging lots of hobbs without actually flying!!

[Readability5]

I did my PPL and then IMC with Kingair at Biggin (now part of Biggin Hill School of Flying) and also flew from Cabair as a PPL hirer for a couple of years.

The first thing you need to do is differentiate training from hiring. I do agree that the hiring charges are excessive and it does appear that the Cabair business plan is focussed solely on PPL and CPL training. At the time I moved from the Biggin area BHSF were moving into the Kingair building and the old BHSF was to be turned into a centre for hours building and CPL training (did that ever happen?). It's unlikely that I'll go back to Cabair as a hirer.

The quality of training was worth the money. All the instructors were well qualified, had excellent trainer (people) skills and were well motivated - even though the Cabair pay and rations and hierachy meant they often motivated themselves. I wasn't charged for spending time with an instructor or attending the weekly presentations (though that's certainly factored into the overall cost). The overall quality of the instruction was excellent and I'd have no reservation in going back for more training or recommending them to anybody else as a training organisation.

The issue about gold bars is bull. Yes, instructors were made to wear them, but acknowledged that they were a vehicle to a professional presentation and many of the QFI's were less than a year away from the airline that was sponsoring them. Having said that the bars were often missing by the time yoiu got off the ramp at a non-Cabair field!

Don't be distracted by the hyperbole as you make your choice, but in summary I'd definitely be trained by Cabair again, but probably won't be hiring any aircraft from them in the UK again.

[Bluebeard]

Would disagree with the comment re Firecrest.

They were my third flying outfit, so I have yardsticks to compare them to. I had no issues with aircraft availability as a student and was certainly not aware of any kind of history of accidents during lessons.

Whilst they are not as smart as Cabair, I've found the quality of instruction to be good - they got me through my PPL just fine.

When switching my instruction to Elstree I considered Cabair but could not justify the huge difference in cost. I'm sure they are a good outfit to train with, I'm just not convinced that you need to pay through the nose for it.

[NorthernSky]

I did all my professional training with Cabair, and eventually ended up instructing with them for a while.

Yes, they are expensive. The aircraft are mostly very well kept and equipped. The degree of standardisation of the flying operation would put some airlines to shame.

Why do people 'bad-mouth' Cabair so much? Because they succeed where others fail. Remember, those few instructors who have little good to say are probably on airline-sponsored schemes and have ideas above their stations.

All my then colleagues from Cabair are now airline pilots flying jets for respectable operators. So, they can probably fly OK.

In contrast, some of the little flying schools I have experience of, make second-hand car dealers look like Saints.

[Thumpango]

If first impressions count, I have to say that when I was looking for a PPL flying school in the south, Cabair gave the worst reception I received from any of the schools at Bournemouth or Southampton. Maybe it was just the chap behind the reception desk having a bad day.
The other schools were all keen to discus my training, Cabair just gave me a brouchure with no discussion offered.
Maybe they don't have to try too hard and are more geared up/interested in CPL training.:(

[suction]

Thumpango - I guess anyone can be having bad day, my experience was exactly the opposite. They sent me all the literature, a video etc. When I visited the school, they spent lot's of time with me evaluating my previous flying experience (helping choose the right training package) and even showed me round a spanking new Warrior. Couldn't fault the overall enthusiam for having me as a club member and getting me that PPL. Have to say tat wasn't Elstree though.

-S

[Polar_stereographic]

I've never found them particularily helpfull.

We need a poll, and I'll put a beer on the table that there are more that would give them a miss than would not.

PS

[AC-DC]

NorthernSky
If CabAir are so good why BA rejected a complete sponsored ATPL recruits and why CabAir were kicked out?

There is a lot to say for and against CabAir. I used to work for them, after 6 months I have left.

[LPlate]

Hello again,

Firstly, thanks to all of you who have replied and given their advice about Cabair. The replies seem split about 50/50 with some praising them to the heavens and others erm... less impressed!

As I said, my looking at Elstree is because it's less than 5 minutes by car from where I live and being exceptionally lazy, it seemed like a good idea. If they're a little more expensive than many other places but give very good training then I think that's still a plus.

How about a different angle. What is the social scene like at Elstree? Is it all strictly business-like or is it a bit more laid-back?

Are there any recommendations for other schools within a reasonable distance of Elstree, say within 1/2 to 3/4 hours travelling?

Thanks again.


LPlate.