View Full Version : Three Holers..
Well gentlemen, (And Ladies) there is some movement around, so do not lose all hope!! Seems like one three holer (DC-10) is being replaced by another (L-1011) over the skies of Europe and Africa.
The First ex-Cal. aircraft that was stored in Abu Dhabi for a few years IS on revenue service and the next one is arriving soon.
And...several Lockheed three-holers in SE Asia, quite soon, along with B727's....
411A
Where do we send the resumes??????? ;)
Mutt
Well Mutt, most crew have been selected already....however we have three projects. The other two are yet to be finalized, so may need more crew. I always list the email address, plain text only accepted.
I have to admit that I am confused! I had no idea that the ex-Caledonian L1011s had been converted into freighters whilst they were sitting in the desert in Abu Dhabi. If not, why are they featuring on the Freight Dogs page?
Certainly no L1011 freighter would ever be seriously replacing a DC-10 unless the operators were flat-broke. One of my F/E friends (from my DC-10 days) has been flying the L1011 freighter for some years and he tells me that it won't do more than 5 hours 30 minutes with a full load. In fact, he is of the opinion that compared to the DC-10-30, the L1011 "is an over-engineered dawg"!
I well remember my first LGW - LAX flight in a DC-10-30. With 345 passengers plus bags and 35,000 lbs of freight under the floor, we even managed a modest derate on take-off over Russ Hill on 26 from Gatwick.
Incidentally, can anyone out there tell me what the correct MTOW for an L1011 is nowadays? We operated our DC-10-30s to 580,000 lbs (583,000 lbs ramp).
Well, JW411...loading thru the pax doors "sometimes" works...then again, maybe not. The L10-200F tops out at 215 tons.
Many thanks for that 411A. Most of the DC-10-30s came out around 260T and with the CF-6 C2B option this went up to 263T. (I believe the military operate the KC10 at nearly 270T).
I can now see why an L10-200F at 215T would only go 5 hours 30 minutes with a full load. It is a big difference.
Loading through the pax doors (unless it is SLF) is going to be pretty interesting if that is indeed the plan!
By the way, I have seen a couple of Hewa Bora (Congo) L1011s recently floating around Europe and they look very smart.
GlueBall
2nd Apr 2002, 21:27
I had heard that the Marshal Aerospace -200 freighter conversions (ex Kalitta birds) also included high capacity brakes wich increased max ldg wt to 380,000 Lbs.
My F/E mate is flying L10-200Fs modified by Marshalls of Cambridge. Increasing the MLW by 12000 lbs or so is only going to help on short sectors.
pig on runway
2nd May 2002, 15:17
saw the tristars at Mwanza Tanzania, Look Great but they wont install the cargo doors as its to expensive try getting tons of fish through the pax door
FE Hoppy
3rd May 2002, 15:21
Tech stop at CAI
Dolfke
3rd May 2002, 15:42
I guess any job openings that might come out of this will be for experienced crew only?
Indeed I`m one of those almost fresh out of flight academy guys with only 200 hours :-(
Thanks very much anyway if you would give us guys a chance too :D
And where are these planes going to operate? (identifiers don`t mean much to me yet but I`ll look them up)
Hellcopter:
Many thanks for the information. I had not really considered the L1011-500 in my comparison for Lockheeds had to saw 13 ft 6 ins (4.11m) off of the fuselage to make it work - which rather defeats the object of the exercise.
brit bus driver
5th May 2002, 03:56
RAF operates modified -500s to an MTOW of 245T. Max ZFW is 159T, if memory serves me correctly....I'll let you know again in 6 months!
T'would appear I should have read 'copters post first! Big problem with the tankers is that if you fill them with fuel (136T if memory serves me correctly), you bust the max AUW! Still, 125T does go an awfully long way...
:D
rockon tommy
5th May 2002, 14:33
Sorry gents, but in my view the DC10 and in particular the Tristar are both scrap metal,no harm in waxing on about them while working your farms,but its a long wait if your looking for the 'good ole days 'to return.
Hellcopter:
I am quite prepared to believe you but could you really take 380 punters from London to Los Angeles in an L1011-500?
Scrap Metal:
The topic of the conversation is "Three Holers" - nobody said there was an age limit!
The three holers..."dead"...watch this space for the next two months...we'll see whom is dead.....:D :D
360 in a -500, don't think so.....a -250 yes, but none of those left as the last 4 were purchased from DL last week.
GlueBall
6th May 2002, 04:08
Two more L1011-200Fs joined the junk yard at ROW (Roswell) last month, one with Fine Air livery, the other with Arrow Air livery. There is no long term future for any "Three Holers." Eventually, the DC-3 will have outlived them all!:cool:
I guess FedEx has it all wrong then....with their MD-11's, MD-10's etc.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Denzil
6th May 2002, 10:05
Two L1011-200F's at MIA last week, one in Fine Air livery in use and an Arrow Air minus it's #2 engine outside maint hangar. The L1011 freighters, given some TLC should be good for a few more years.
rockon tommy:
As 411A aptly puts it, if the day of the DC-10 is over why do you imagine that Fedex operates more than 100 of them and intends to for quite a while yet? Don't try to go the US with Northwest from the UK either unless you want to sit in the back of one.
brit bus driver:
I presume that the modified RAF -500s are operating to MOS (Military Operating Standards) at the higher weights and not to Performance 'A'?
Hellcopter:
So you can't get 380 punters in an L1011-500. I am confused for 411A doesn't reckon you can get 360 in either. Has anyone out there flown a -500 with 360 in the back?
In any event, the figures still don't add up. I have resorted to an old copy of Jane's and this gives the following:
L1011-500 MTOW 231.3T
MZFW 153.3T (Max Payload 42.0T)
This leaves 78.0T available for fuel.
DC-10-30 MTOW 263.0T
MZFW 169.5T (Max payload 48.0T)
This leaves 93.5T available for fuel.
Using the RAF figures we have:
MTOW 245.0T
MZFW 159.0T
This leaves 86.0T available for fuel.
So, it seems to me that by sawing 4.11m off of the fuselage they arrived at an aircraft with a similar range with a 6T reduction in payload. That is probably why Fedex are not operating a fleet of L1011-500s but, after all, what do they know about shifting freight?
Impressive Figures JW.
Looks like a fine bird 2 me.
Denzil
6th May 2002, 19:21
Was it Air Transat or American Trans Air who bought the Royal Jordanian L1011-500's and due to high density seating had an extra pair of pax doors fitted by Marshalls. They must have been over 300 seats.
The extra doors added are for the British CAA standards. A/C certified for operations under the British Registry had to have the extra doors put in!! That's the CAA for ya!
Oh, and I have had the chance of flying both of these three holers and the "10" definitely wins hands down! Of course the only problem with the 10 is opening the Pax door with no power......
Hellcopter:
You need to pay some money into the bank for your postings are now marked "Account Closed". Does this mean that you have withdrawn from the discussion?
Denzil:
I have just looked up another one of my reference books and it says that Amtran purchased Royal Jordanian -500s JY-AGA to JY-AGE (N160AT-N164AT) and that they are configured to 307Y which is indeed above just above 300 but quite a lot short of the rest of Amtran's L-1011s which are stated as 362Y.
Alapt:
I think you have made the right choice but I have to admit that two of you raising a 410-lb door manually after a total electrical failure is indeed quite interesting. Fear is quite a motivating factor but I always reckoned that I could always manage it out of the DV window with a rope!
Denzil
6th May 2002, 22:43
The aircraft converted are not on the UK register so why is that the CAA's fault. I think the config in which you operate the aircraft is what determines the amount of doors, not the aircraft type. All the same this must have been an expensive modification.
Don't the DC10 doors have a nitrogen supply to blow the doors open, must be lighter than that bl00dy big spring to open the L10 doors!!
That "bloody big spring" on the TriStar has a 15,000 pound pull, enough to put the door into orbit...
The "extra" door in the -500 with high density seating was required due to the distance between L/R 2 and L/R 3....and Delta holds the STC...a cool million..or was it half a million, can't remember, anyway a lot.
Willit Run
7th May 2002, 05:22
At AIA we had 352 pax with upstairs galley configuration on the -200's. That was a bit tight.
That bloody big spring worked very well to open the door without power, but you had to have the slide installed or a counter weight in place of, or the door when opened by the spring, would end up o the the other side of the plane, with much damage to boot. That just gave us lots of beer time !
Denzil
7th May 2002, 07:01
I never put a lot of faith into the locking mechanism on the counter balances when changing them either!!!! We used to find no end of damage on the door stops on check.
So is there a back-up on the DC10?
DC-10 doors:
Sorry chaps, I am guilty of slovenly writing. What I should have said was "in the event of electrical AND pneumatic failure..".
To the best of my recollection the doors were normally operated(slides disarmed) by an electrical motor. In emergency mode (slides armed) they were operated pneumatically. If all else failed it was possible for two strong chaps to lift it.
I also seem to remember that it was possible to open 1L Door from the outside with a hand crank.
FE Hoppy
8th May 2002, 01:58
Any one know who got the 250s? I think they are probably the best ones left except for the high hours on em.
Rumour has it....Tradewinds.
outoftrimagain
10th May 2002, 21:57
Mwanza should not be a problem loading fish through a pax door since there is no palletized freight in the first place. Everything is handloaded there, although they got a new beltloader now. (but still only one neon tube)
Remember the Tilapia?:rolleyes: