Chinese "On" Standard or "Non" Standard Meaning?

[Green Baron 737]

We flew out of Shenzen the other day on the SHL9X SID. We were cleared initially to 1200 Meters. Once airborne the Zhuhai departure controller cleared us to 3300 meters and said either non standard or on standard. This altitude is above the 2700 meter TA. This lead to a lot of confusion in the cockpit as to what was said and what was meant.

I thought he said "on standard" and the other pilot thought he said "non standard". After some debate we were just about to ask for clarification when we were given a new clearance to a much higher altitude and it never became a problem.

I have been asking around other pilots from our company and each seems to have their own meaning. Some think non standard means you should not switch to QNE 1013 hpa. Others said it simply means that the altitude isn't charted.....thus...non standard. Others say it relates to standard East/West directional standard altitudes.

Can anyone that is familiar with Zhuhai departure put this to rest? Do the controllers normally say on standard or non standard or do they use both terms?
Thanks.

[On the beach]

Try posting the question on the "Fragrant Harbour" board. I'm sure someone from Air Macau or even Cathay may be able to help you.

OTB

[mcdude]

In China they use "on standard" to mean Flight Level, as opposed to "on QNH". They probably dont use 'Flight Level' because by definition this implies feet, not metres. The following definintion of Flight Level from Wikipedia may shed some light.


A Flight Level (FL) is a standard nominal altitude of an aircraft, in hundreds of feet. This altitude is calculated from the International standard pressure datum of 1013.25 hPa (29.92 inHg).

[Capt Chambo]

I cannot recall Chinese ATC ever using the phrase "non standard". If you had been cleared to a cruising level above transition then they normally use the phrase "on standard" i.e. on 1013/29.92

In your example I reckon you heard correctly.

[caucatc]

Green Baron 737, I do not know much about Zhuhai approach, but I could say in Beijing, we only use "on standard" rather than "non standard", we were trained to advise the pilot the altimeter change when need to make a change, for example, you are 1,200m climbing and I clear you to climb to 3,000 meters, if both based on QNH, then we do not tell you QNH again unless there is a change in the QNH, and if there is a change in the altimeter reference, we will tell you, for example, you are 1,200m QNH maintaining, I clear you toe 3,600m on standard, we will say climb and maintain 3,600m on standard.
I suggest you ask controller if it is "on standard" or "on QNH", then you will understand that well, and personally, I think it should be "on standard".

[bekolblockage]

I suspect it may have been "non-standard" referring to the use of a non- FLOS (Flight Level Orientation Scheme- i.e. single alternate, double alternate etc) level initially.

We often (didn't you OTB??) use the phrase e.g. "climb to non-standard F410" to highlight to the pilot that they will be operating contrary to the standard FLOS - not that you care probably - but just to raise your situational awareness.

[de facto]

Controllers used the term ON sTandard.the pilot who heard non standard may have tried to get some sense out of the wording from his experience and got non standard as of an odd level flying west.

On standard means a FL so they want you to maintain the cleared 'altitude' on 1013.15/2992.
China Atc phraseology is very poor and they rarely listen to your readback so be very prudent.

For your info,the transition altitude in shenzhen is 2700m(8900ft)so if he clears you to 3300m(10800ft)you better be on standard.
Short briefing?:E

[bekolblockage]

Possible.
Seems a bit odd though. Transitioning from Hong Kong (imperial level) airspace to Mainland China airspace (metric), we would say "Climb to Flight Level Three Thousand Three Hundred Metres".
When descending to 1,800 metres for instance (no FL in this case) , we include the QNH.
Have never used, nor heard them use the term "on standard" but I'll take your word for it de facto.

[On the beach]

We often (didn't you OTB??) use the phrase e.g. "climb to non-standard F410" to highlight to the pilot that they will be operating contrary to the standard FLOS

I did frequently, pre-RVSM, but I'm not sure how many understood the implications let alone appreciated the effort involved. I wouldn't like to think it was being done on the Mainland though and I'm sure it's not. The word "cannot" springs to mind. :E

"On standard" sounds the more likely, if obviously confusing to some pilots, terminology.

Of course this would all be academic if China fell into step with the rest of the World and adopted FL/feet as the universal "standard". Funny how they can adapt to Imperial Flight Levels through South Sanya airspace. They might appreciate the problems more if they had to do the transitioning to/from metric levels in their airspace rather than relying on Hong Kong to do it for them in HK airspace. But, hey, that's why you get paid 200X more than Mainland controllers. :ok:

On the beach (watching contrails)

[bekolblockage]

Of course this would all be academic if China fell into step with the rest of the World and adopted FL/feet as the universal "standard".

Its kind of funny but their metric RVSM FLOS is based on feet.

Q: "I have a metric altimeter, can I fly through your metric airspace?"
A: "Cannot. To fly through our metric airspace you must fly in feet." (!)

Hence everybody is using a conversion table from "spoken" metric level to feet.

Not the pilot, nor the controller in China, nor the controller in HK actually see the cleared level, as spoken, on any screen or instrument. They see either an approximate conversion to feet, or an actual metric level (in the case of the Chinese controller's radar screen) which is not exactly the same as the spoken clearance due to the conversion to feet in the table.

Clear as mud??

Conflict alarm goes off - quick, what metric level are you maintaining? Er, um. Standby.

[caucatc]

To fly in RVSM zone in feet though based on metric is because adjacent countries use feet.

[bekolblockage]

Can you provide an answer to the original question?
Do your controllers use the phrase "on standard" meaning standard pressure setting???
I've not heard it used around here in the PRD before- wouldn't they say Flight Level .... to imply standard pressure?

[caucatc]

Where is PRD? Is it Pardoo (PRD) Australia???
I do not know the other controllers, but in PEK, controller only use ON STANDARD, never say non standard, but some foreign pilots always use flight level no matter they are on standard or on QNH. Theoritically, I believe flight level is only for on standard.

[de facto]

Ok let it be clear.
I fly in china.
When controllers in china clear you to a metric number (ie 3300m) that is above transition altitude will clear you as such:'call sign,climb to 3300m on standard'.
When controllers clear you to an altitude during climb phase:'call sign,climb to 2700 m on qnh' or 'call sign climb to 2700m'
When they clear you to an altitude during descent that is below the transition level:they will say:'call sign,descend to 2700 m on qnh or 2700m'

Now i dont repeat this' on standard 'non standard phraseology:E i always use the wording Flight Level when instructed to climb to an altitude above the transition altitude.

Clear as mud?
but in PEK, controller only use ON STANDARD, never say non standard
Thats because they NEVER issue non standard altidudes like in other states...in europe i often flew FL 410 westbound..
This will never happen in china.

[de facto]

but some foreign pilots always use flight level no matter they are on standard or on QNH.

Not true,pilots when cleared to a Flight Level will use the terminology of FL rather than 'on standard'
When cleared to an altitude (below transition altitude) they will use the term altitude rather than the term on QNH.

The cleared altitude/flight level avoids also confusion of numbers when issued 'to' before the altitude or level.
Ie :call sign climb to 2700m ,is heard as climb 2 2700m.

So a more clear instruction would be:' call sign,climb to altitude 2700m' or 'call sign,climb 2700m'


I suggest ATC in china to read about the uk caa website on level bust/uk phraseology.
Proper phraseology in another step away from human error...

Oh and whats up with this continuous pilot use of 'AIRBORNE':rolleyes:
Whos teaching that???

[caucatc]

de facto
Chinese ATC use phraseology according to the ICAO regulation and CAAC, normaly we give you clearance in this way: callsign, climb and maintain 4,200m on standard. callsign, descend and maintain 1,500m on QNH 1002.

[de facto]

Caac atc very rarely say climb and maintain 2700m and mostly use climb 'to' 2700m.
FACT.

[caucatc]

You can listen carefully what PEK controllers say.