Why Check Flight? (insurance?)

[MajorCorporalArse]

I'm fairly annoyed at this!

I've gone from place to place (moving) and hired and A/C and 3 of 5 places have said they require a check flight due to insurance reasons?

Question being? Why? If you have current (within the last week) type experience?

I'm just confused as to the actual reasoning.. Personally I just see it as being a bit of a joke just to get some extra funds (usually getting an instructor and grade 1)

I have had someone ask for a check flight of 1 cct at no extra charge - No complaints from me..

My only justification is that "it's their a/c" but to charge you extra just makes me not want to return. Good Service = Repeat Business... doesn't matter what industry.

/End Rant.

[Old Akro]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one.

[morno]

If it were my aircraft, be stuffed if just because you flew someone elses the week before, that I'd be letting you loose in it. How do I know you fly it properly?

Agree with the above, don't like it, buy your own. An owner can make up whatever rules they want to look after their aircraft.

morno

[BlatantLiar]

I feel your pain.

I went on holiday with the family, I wanted to hire a cherokee to take them on a small scenic. Even though I had 300 hours on type with many in the past few months the flying school wanted 3 ccts at dual rates. I decided to take them out for ice cream instead...

[MajorCorporalArse]

I don't mind the check flight, i just think it's a joke to charge dual rates for it because they already make money out of you for the a/c hire as is.. Treat the customer well and be rewarded.. would you prefer $210.00 for 1 hour or $21,000.00 for 100 hours..

Plus they seem to site "ïnsurance" as the reason although after speaking to a few other places they claim that to be garbage..

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Major,

As an owner, I would want to fly a couple of circuits with you as well, just to see how you manage my engine and generally treat my 'pride and joy'....as I have had to do with other owners in the past.

Don't think I'd charge you dual rates for it though....I would just tack it on to your hire I reckon.

Anyway...his aircraft = his rules....
:ok:

[c100driver]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one.

agree 100%

[Clearedtoreenter]

Try to think about this from an owners perspective. You really need to know who you are renting your (say) 200 grands worth of fragile equipment to. A bad renter can do thousands of dollars worth of damage very easily and that knocks a pretty big hole in a $200 rent. It just is not worth the risk as there are some real ratbags out there. (but no one on here of course!) It is also true that some insurance policies say something like 'pilots approved by the insured...' How are we supposed approve folks we don't know? Some folks need to understand we ain't Avis and at current rates its very hard to make anything from aircraft rental.

[Fandangled]

Depending on the type and performance of aircraft, insurance companies do give reduced premiums for aircraft if hirers are checked out first.

Please don't confuse service with price, the check flight is a very small charge compared to the long term hiring costs. Some establishments give you more service/advice (free help) for the price and then some just charge a lot for a clapped out old Warrior.

I have done a lot of check flights in my time and I've found generally the pilots that don't want to do a check are the ones that really need them, irrespective of hours or flying back-ground.

I wish i didn't have to do them when I go on holidays but hey they don't know me from a bar of soap so I don't mind.

[Tankengine]

Back in GA days I worked at a "holiday" airport and have done probably 100+ private hire check flights.
I always asked for 3 circuits, paid as dual because the instructor still needs to get paid!:hmm:
I usually ended up seeing all 3 circuits as currency or type issues required it.
Sometimes I stopped it after one circuit if the hirer showed me he really was OK [you would be suprised how rare that was!:eek:]
Sometimes I could not let the aircraft be rented and had to suggest a training path for the [sometimes very "experienced" potential renter.]:E
Standards of private pilot are HUGELY variable.:ooh:

Once a pilot was proven by checkflight and quietly observing their departure and arrival then they did not need another check next year etc as long as they remained current somewhere.:ok:
T

[YPJT]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one:D:D:D :ok:

MajorCorporalArse, So you think the check ride should be free? Do you also suggest that the aircraft operator pay for the instructor out of their pocket? :ugh:

Remember an operator's premiums are based on a number of factors, not the least of which is claim history. To hire to anyone who walked in the door on the basis of them waving a licence and log book in your face would, IMHO, be a recipe for disaster.

[das Uber Soldat]

3 Circuits are understandable. I had one idiot try to do an entire GFPT with me to check me for a VFR by day scenic hire in a Cessna (700 hours on type) including partial panel I.F. Took 1.2 hours before I finally cracked it and ended the sortie 'prematurely'.

Be clear before you get in what is required.

[Clare Prop]

Unfortunately the standards, espcially of pilots who trained a long time ago, vary widely. A log book full of hours is no guarantee that the person can fly competently.


I've done check flights with people with CPLs who didn't have the required competencies for first solo. Recently had one who kept banging on about all his military helicopter experience who couldn't join or fly a circuit VFR in a fixed wing.


As said before, the people who grumble about doing a check ride are usually the ones who need it most and the ones who think instructors should give their time for free can go and buy their own aircraft.

Having said that there are some places that have draconian requirements for things like "90 day currency" but it's their train set so their rules.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Back in GA days I worked at a "holiday" airport and have done probably 100+ private hire check flights.
I always asked for 3 circuits, paid as dual because the instructor still needs to get paid!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif
I usually ended up seeing all 3 circuits as currency or type issues required it.
Sometimes I stopped it after one circuit if the hirer showed me he really was OK [you would be suprised how rare that was!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif]
Sometimes I could not let the aircraft be rented and had to suggest a training path for the [sometimes very "experienced" potential renter.]http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
Standards of private pilot are HUGELY variable.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

Once a pilot was proven by checkflight and quietly observing their departure and arrival then they did not need another check next year etc as long as they remained current somewhere.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifMy experience as a private hirer for many years is entirely in agreement with the above.

3 x circuits were generally the go (minimum for insurance purposes, I always assumed), but sometimes one was enough. Seemed not unreasonable to me, for taking their $$$$$$ aeroplane off into the bush for a few days.

I recall hiring a C182 from Rex Aviation at Archerfield once when I was not a regular there. The CFI looked at my log book and saw that I was current on C185. "Probably not much to be gained from flying with you, is there? If you can handle a C185, I don't think the 182 will be a problem", was the response!

Then there was the time I enquired about private hiring a C210 in Townsville. Was told be the CFI/owner that a minimum 6 hrs checkout would be required - 3 hrs on the ground and 3 hrs in the air - all at dual rates.

At the time I had a CPL, CIR, 2000+ hrs TT and a couple of hundred hours on C210 and was quite current on the type.

I gave it a miss!

Dr :8

PS: A check ride is generally a small part of the overall hire - if you can't afford it, then you probably can't afford to hire the aeroplane.

[27/09]

Any time I went somewhere where I wasn't known, I expected to complete a check out. Same applied to anyone wanting to hire an aircraft I was responsible for. Generally three circuits but on the odd occasion one was enough to see the guy or gal was competent. Once they were a known quantity then provided they were current, no further checks were required with future hires.

All insurance policies I know of have a clause "as approved by the owner/operator" and in some cases require a dual check if the hirer hasn't completed X hours on type within the preceding 90 days. Who in their right mind would approve someone they didn't know?

I don't see how these check outs should be for free but neither should they be a full blown BFR either.

Once you've checked a few people out it's pretty obvious why it is a good idea, insurance requirements not withstanding.

One guy I was checking out for a foreign licence validation claimed to own shares in a PA28R. He showed pretty poor systems knowledge and ability for someone who owned an Arrow.

As has been already pointed out those that objected were invariably those that needed a check ride.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I just wish I could suspend the license of some of the people I've had to check!

Love the "gimme some flyun for free and I'll spend thousands with you after" routine. Lets try that one at the pub!:rolleyes:

Let's say you owned the aircraft. You gonna be happy for Dudley (who gets that reference?) to rock up with an entry on his logbook (entered by whom, might I ask?) as the sole proof that he/she is competent?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Got the 'link' Captain......lurve the book too...

I had the pleasure of a 'Dudley' many years ago. He dropped into Aircraft Rentals at BK and produced his log book meticulously made out showing pages of flying a particular 210 all over Qld. Like - 'I've been everywhere' man.
Sheer Fate - he picked the wrong bloke to show it to.

I had personally written off same 210 about two months earlier.

'Uncle Ray' rang 'Uncle Russ' and I kept him talkin' until Uncle Russ arrived....Game over.

Those of you who are of 'Those times' will know wot I mean.....

Can't trust just the logbook - but the usual 3 ccts will reveal all...
Cheers :ok:

[A37575]

Believe me there are some really awful pilots out there who shouldn't be flying but they still hold a licence of sorts. And no way would any sane flying school operator hire an aircraft to them without first checking their basic competency by a minimum of one circuit. It is not like car hire.

[Checkboard]

4.4 The holder of a class endorsement must not fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of any aeroplane included in the class unless he or she:
(a) is familiar with the systems, the normal and emergency flight manoeuvres and aircraft performance, the flight planning procedures, the weight and balance requirements and the practical application of take-off and landing charts of the aeroplane to be flown; and
(b) has sufficient recent experience or training in the aeroplane type, or in a comparable type, to safely complete the proposed flight; and
(c) if an aeroplane in that class has a special design feature, holds a special design feature endorsement referred to in paragraph 5.1 for that design feature.
Note The owner and operator of an aeroplane included in a class of aeroplane should: (a) ensure that a person who proposes to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of the aeroplane complies with subparagraph 4.4 (a); and
(b) where necessary, require the person to provide evidence of recent experience or training in the aeroplane type or in a comparable aeroplane type; and
(c) if the aeroplane has a special design feature, ensure that the person holds a special design feature endorsement for that design feature.
(Bolding mine.)

[Tinstaafl]

If you wanted to rent a PA31 I manage, you won't like the insurance mandated requirements -and they are insurance mandated. It's on the policy document. For any Joe Bloggs a CPL, IR, 2000hr TT, 1000multi and a 3 day recurrency course held at one of the major simulator training organisations within the last year ($2700 at Simcom with a returning customer discount). Further, I'd want to fly with you to make sure the engines are operated LOP using the EDM I had fitted. it's not all about whether you can land OK...

As a named, approved pilot on the insurance I just have to do an instrument proficiency check within the last year (last time was 1.4 hrs including ferry time each way & $48 for the instructor. Bargain!)

[jas24zzk]

Every time I do one of these check rides, I baulk at the thought of doing 3 circuits.
I redesign(on behalf of the instructor) the check ride into a mission to practise a skill I haven't practised in a bit, or one that wouldn't hurt to have some outside input on. Might be some steepies, a PFL, or low speed handling.

Turning it into a training mission totally removes the pain of paying for a check on a type I am completely familiar with. I also hope that by doing that, it demonstrates to the hirer that I am serious about maintaining my skill levels, and that they are more comfortable hiring me their pride and joy.

In short, if you gotta pay you gotta pay, but try to get something from your dollars.

Cheers
Jas

[Capt Fathom]

Fortunately for all of us, no one needs to hire Tinstaafl Navajo! :E

[Tinstaafl]

That was the owner's choice to reduce his premium. Insurance can be expensive in the US. It's not available for rent although it could be arranged if really necessary for some reason.

[Horatio Leafblower]

One bloke came to me wanting to hire the aircraft and waved logbooks and licences at me. Looked like he'd been dead for 10 years and just didn't know it yet, had a tremor in his right hand, couldn't fly to save his life and kept banging on about his time as a mercenary in Rhodesia.

Showed me his Air America ID card with his logbook and licence :hmm:

I just kept smiling and nodding. Always be nice to the crazy ones, just in case :uhoh:

[43Inches]

Last aicraft I owned the insurance premium varied from 1% hull value for listed pilots/high requirements to 4% for certain poor reputation flying schools. However a flying school/club with good track record like the one I had the aircraft on line with was 2.5% (ab-initio, solo and unrestricted hire). This particular school was one of the few that had 3 month currency requirements for private hire at the time and a list of non-approved landing areas.

Further savings could be made if you restricted flying and introduced checks, however the insurance companies seemed to know this was the case with a good operator anyway.

[MajorCorporalArse]

I’ve had a guy/owner of an RTO who had a couple of a/c had instructors but he came with me for the check flight, we went out and did dirty/clean stalls, pfls (and landed), 60deg bank left and right turns, prec search and 1 cct.. Didn't charge an extra rate just did the hourly a/c rate..

I was very impressed, that's what it should be like. The fact he didn't charge an instructor fee, That was even more impressive for me. It showed he actually wanted to check out my capabilities, not just whack in a fee for the sake of being a used car salesmen

I think the good ones in this industry clearly stand out because its flooded with "cash hungry" hippo's
MCA

[Checkboard]

The fact he didn't charge an instructor fee, That was even more impressive for me. It showed he actually wanted to check out my capabilities, not just whack in a fee for the sake of being a used car salesmen

So, an instructor who charges an instructor fee is just "ripping you off", and not actually providing a professional service? :hmm:

It was impressive that he undercut an honest professional trying to make their way in GA, in order to grab your business from them? :rolleyes:

[MajorCorporalArse]

He owns, the business and took it upon himself to come out and have a talk to me and do a check flight, Yeah that's impressive.

The fact that he didn't charge out an instructor fee without asking him is even more impressive.

It's just good business sense if you're going to gain a decent amount of income from a potential client. Why not give them the $30.00 off for the check flight if you could benefit 10k, 20k even 30k. It makes a massive impression on the client (me) which in return bring in solid income.

It's certainly a different ball game if it's a one time/hit and run hirer, that I totally understand.

The used car sales industry comment is probably unfair but I think everyone who has been through this industry would agree theirs a fair few companies to weed through.


I like how defensive you are getting :}

[Checkboard]

Defensive? Hmm perhaps. ;)

I was an instructor 20 years ago, and (as all instructors, I suspect) eventually became pretty annoyed at the number of people who needed your services, yet still expected you to work for free.

eg. Sitting behind a desk on a rainy day at Moorabbin, someone walks in and asks if I can fly a Mooney. They are stuck by the weather, and need someone to fly their aircraft IFR north of the hills, so they can continue to Queensland that day.

That's fine - a normal job. I run up a quote with one instructor to fly his aircraft up to Mangalore, with a warrior following for the return pick up. That's about an hour and a half of warrior time, and two instructor's pay.

He was horrified at hearing the price! When I asked what he expected, he said "You are getting some IFR time on my expense, and I thought that would be good for you!" :ugh:

When I asked him how I was to get home, he suggested I take the bus back, and "perhaps he could pay for that."

... so his expectation was that, for 45 mins flying in a Mooney, I would be happy to spend the next five hours waiting for and then sitting in a bus back to Melbourne - and then funding my own taxi from there back to Moorabbin. :rolleyes:

You really just have to laugh in some people's face at that attitude. :suspect:

[Mike Litoris]

Here's an idea Major Arse,

Why don't you first spend 10k, 20k or even 30k (your words...) with an organisation, and then ask for your $30 bucks back.... Who knows they may even increase it to 35 for a bit of interest!

Do you work for nothing? I would guess not..... :ugh:

[NIK320]

MCA you say its fine to charge instructor time if its a one time hire..

How is an operator to know that???

Just because you say you will then become a regular customer doesn't mean you will. People will say anything to save a few coins.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Said it before, say it again,

Love the "gimme some flyun for free and I'll spend thousands with you after" routine. Lets try that one at the pub!

Major
Firstly, DR. I'm on a 200 hour syll with around 115hrs clocked.

Dude, I gotta say I'd be a fcuking idiot if I let you hire a plane without checking you and if you expect this industry to be cheap you better find another line of work.
Last time I added it up I reckon I've outlaid close to six figures in licenses, ratings, endorsements, documents, currency, equipment etc, so if you expect me to give up my time for free on the miniscule chance a CPL student is gonna fly my arrow/182 for 100 hours (I think the temp in Hell today was forecast for -15) you had better get ready for a similar reaction from 99.9% of the industry.

Seeing as I do hit my flight time limits quite often, my time IS money.:cool:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

So many people think you should give them a discount because "I'm gunna do heaps of hours".

Like the one who was gunna fly round Australia, got as far as Port Hedland and then changed his mind and left the aircraft there... :mad: and then wondered why we charged him for someone to go and get it.

"But I didn't want to fly any more, it was too hot, so why should I pay?" said he when he arrived back on the RPT having done 10 hours instead of the promised 50 and had booked the aircraft for a month.

Then the one who said he was gunna do 60 hours, which meant an early engine change, then never turned up.

That was when I introduced non-refundable deposits for away hires. Never had a problem with tyre kickers since and the genuine hirers don't mind a bit.

Cash hungry hippos....:ugh:

[43Inches]

I think the good ones in this industry clearly stand out because its flooded with "cash hungry" hippo's


Considering most light aircraft owners would make no profit or a loss in real terms on their aircraft I think the cash hungry hippo's are the hirers. When the "aviation enthusiasts" that own a lot of the private hire aircraft finally get sick of it and leave the scene to be replaced by real business types looking for 20%+ returns you will quickly find your PA28 or 172 costing $400+ per hour solo.

For a long time the hirer has been getting aircraft rental at pretty much cost. They get upset at the already low price and claim they're being ripped off and when challenged to go out and buy their own aircraft will say that its way too expensive. I once had an accountant interested in buying an aircraft for an investment, after he saw the hire rates he thought we were making solid income. We sat down and went through the figures and very quickly he came to the realisation that money sitting in the bank even with zero interest was a better idea than an aircraft. Most business types have said often that GA aircraft need to charge 20% more to be worthwhile, the standard answer is would you pay 20% more for ours if the guy down the road offers it for 20% less.

Charter companies and flying schools/clubs are often shoestring operations. The only reason some would agree to block hours for a discount at all is because they need the regular hours on the aircraft to offset annual operating costs. The ones making money have good contracts and wouldn't hire out aircraft at random.

Without checkrides aircraft wear and insurance premiums rise in turn leading to dramatic increases in hire costs. It is saving you money to do checkrides.

* Lastly considering how short a checkride usually is the additional cost associated with paying an instructor for their time is miniscule. Whilst only one or two of these rides a week will buy an instructor some fuel or instant noodles to survive on.

[MajorCorporalArse]

I guess their is some fairly valid points made, I just wouldn't have expected people to try and rip off the system in boths ways. Unfortunately it's the minority who ruin it for the majority (or should i say the opposite) - I'm always looking at things positively never doing the wrong thing by either parties because I know what to expect in return.

All i can say is , cheers for the people who have worked as instructors who've responded giving constructive input (wait on a forum?)

MakeItHappenCaptain (http://www.pprune.org/members/123320-makeithappencaptain)
I'd say if your chance was miniscule in getting a student then your not approaching it properly.

Theirs heaps straight outa uni/high school kids who don't know better but for myself, and others who've worked and seen what business is ultimately about. It's the first impressions that matter for success.

But as I said early, cheers for the input even if hell does freeze over :D

MCA

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Dude, if you can afford to blow 30 grand on private hiring a lightie just for hour building (especially considering that's almost the entire cost of your CPL), you aren't going to complain about a 30 minute check.

Secondly miniscule is an excellent word. You can't seriously say you are going to spend 30k on a single (most likely retract CSU) for hour building when you could put that money towards a multi CIR?

C'mon, be honest now.:hmm:

If your answer really is yes, then see above. You need to be teaching nuns the definition of tight.

(Money saving advice from Cash Hungry Hippos Consulting Inc.)

Considering the experience of posters like 43, CFI and Check, maybe it's time to listen instead of thinking you know how this industry should run, even in light of your vast experience.

[NIK320]

MCA as for your question regarding insurance being the root cause of the dual check, I checked my companies insurance policy today and found this line.

Pilots as approved by company name Chief Pilot, Chief Flying Instructor and/or their DeputiesAn interpretation of that is a dual check is done to assess your skills and thereby give you authority to use the aircraft.
Not sure the insurance would pay out if we approved you based on what could be fake entries in a logbook to make it look like you knew how to fly the thing.