DONCASTER SHEFFIELD

[TimmyW]

Rumours of new routes and cargo developments to be announced in a few weeks. Have seen it posted on 2 other forums.

Believe it when I see it though!

[onyxcrowle]

Im a vocal supporter of the airport but sadly I will believe it when I see it. For example the airport rushing to announce that forgettable little airline running to Amsterdam.
Out of interest do you have some web linke to these 'rumours'?.
Also I have tried to find the Doncaster thread on here but can't Any ideas what happened to it?

[egcntristar]

I'd be happy for anything, but can't see more than a 1 x weekly sun route being trumpeted as something new.

[onyxcrowle]

I guess a freight one is possible , after all HUY in terms of airliners gets Icelandair , Maybe them or that sort of Ilk once a week . As for a passenger service that's anybody's guess . But the loss of BMI baby that has hit other airports hard kind of shows that the DSA style of small but solid airline lists was a better idea . I'd hate to thing what the naysayers would have said then .
Of the more likely candidate airlines , perhaps monarch or klm .
Might be nice to see links to these sites mentioned by the op

[pug]

I guess a freight one is possible , after all HUY in terms of airliners gets Icelandair , Maybe them or that sort of Ilk once a week

Big demand for fish flights in Doncaster now? :E

[onyxcrowle]

lol ** rolls eyes** Icelandair was an example, But hey why not I mean I'm sure they eat fish in South yorkshire. :P

[chaps2011]

Some of the best chippies in England and before you say it I live west of Pennines

Ian

[onyxcrowle]

Exactly!. Though the chippies here (yes this is off topic) Are no where near as good as those Back in proper Yorkshire and Scotland wherre I lived. And they tasted better served in newspaper and greeseproof paper. (Flipping health and safety!).Back on topic though, I must admit I don't actually know how come Iceland air come to HUY with Fish when of course it is close to the North sea ports in Grimsby. So perhaps it isn't too strange that Dsa could also be a 'plaice' for them ;) < had to do that gag .
Also I wasn't in the area when it opened but was TNT there at the start?. Maybe they will be back.
As for passenger services Monarch I guess like I said earlier, But as much as I want to see a very busy airport, I doubt the likes of a big expansion from Ryanair is exactly what we need. They often seem to have a spat at random with an airport and suddenly pull out. So where do we find a nice stable airline, Willing to stay and bring some useful non bucket and spade routes?.

[pug]

Why Monarch?

I must admit I don't actually know how come Iceland air come to HUY with Fish when of course it is close to the North sea ports in Grimsby. So perhaps it isn't too strange that Dsa could also be a 'plaice' for them http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Large food industry in the area, particularly in Grimsby. However the flights arent actually operating at the moment.

[onyxcrowle]

Why not. Ok what airline would you think?????

[pug]

Monarch have just announced new bases and routes at both EMA and LBA, therefore does DSA really make any sense?

[ILS32]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on route expansion.The airports biggest worry must be keeping Thomson flying from dsa.The sunshine routes Faro,Alicante,Malaga and Mallorca are all dropping passenger numbers.If this continues for the summer season then the dsa mgmt have a big problem.The only airports expanding around your catchment area are man,ema and the lba.Thomson has never been a great lover of the lba but if the number of passengers continue to fall,they will go else where to make their profits. Thomson have already announced expansion from Leeds for the summer 2013 season.

[TimmyW]

The reason for the dropping passenger numbers on the flights you mentioned are because there are less flights to those destinations.

I agree though, if Thomson were to pull out it would in my opinion be the death of the airport.

Hopefully the rumors come to fruition. I highly doubt it though. I think it will be many years before a new airline comes to DSA, if they ever do.

[pug]

It would be nice to think that with the recently more assured future of BMIr, DSA may have the potential of attracting them to offer sustainable connections to a hub airport at some point in the future. I'm not sure if they will continue to be a part of an alliance though?

[onyxcrowle]

Perhaps . Which hub though , heathrow ? AMS , Frankfurt or Paris . If we got very lucky all of the above and Copenhagen . It would be a short flight to heathrow but prob slightly longer than MAN-LHR so it's poss . If for argument pug they did what kind if Ac would they be Emb or the airbus stuff . Does bma/BMI still have Emb

[pug]

Heathrow, no. AMS unlikely. FRA and CDG would make sense, but like I say, I'm not sure if the new owners will retain any alliance membership or codeshares. I believe BMIr have a fleet of EMB regional jets.

I was merely making a suggestion that the new owners of BMI Regional are hinting at route expansion but nothing specific has been mentioned, so that in no way means DSA is in the running. Will have to wait and see.

[onyxcrowle]

Frankfurt would be a good one, But they would have to make sure the schedules better than the Easyjet AMS services.
It's such a pity they didn't make that work, But then an Airline running as you say the smaller EMB aircraft would no doubt be able to.
I guess continue the airport's current thing of small measured growth. Find a HUB/route folk would use on a daily or whatever basis. Use a small A/C and go from there!.
Out of interest though, How would it work anyway if say, (dont shoot me down fir suggesting the airline im using it as an example). DLH was to provide an Emb 170 or 135 type to FRA for the large number of onward connections. Do the passengers not have to check in when they get to frankfurt two hours before say a flight to JFK leaves FRA?. in Which case for a decent service to remain to be offered from DSA and be used etc, Im guessing it would have to be aquite an early one. Or is it different for a connecting flight. Im not that familiar with that side of things. But for example you see ETD flights landing at IOM which are just codeshares, But under the same flight numebrs etc. I find it a bit confusing.

[HOODED]

DSA certainly needs extra flights, as a PPL holder I'm amazed at the number of AT movements a day for the size of the airspace. I was refused entry a couple of months ago & I only wanted to clip the NE corner of the airspace. Aparently a single Wizzair on approach to 02 means a non transponder equipped airctaft overhead Gainsborough tracking North at 3000ft has to do an immediate descent to below 1500ft to stay outside the airspace, ludicrous! With only 5 or 6 AT inbounds a day you would think they would encourage private traffic.

I now have a working Mode S but won't be going near DSA again as I don't want to be used as justification for the large amount of controlled airspace. Rant Over!:ugh::ugh:

[pug]

I agree HOODED, always descending to 1500 before the Trent en_route Humberside to Gamston to avoid Doncaster CAS and rarely noticed any significant movement, only to call inbound to HUY overhead Brigg to be told to orbit Elsham due to commercial/helicopter movements. HUY does not have CAS yet seems to manage well enough with more movements than DSA.

[egcntristar]

Weston taking the FBO from Signature next month.

Weston Aviation wins FBO concession at Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield (http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/10728153/weston-aviation-wins-fbo-concession-at-robin-hood-airport-doncaster-sheffield)

[TimmyW]

I see work on the link road which will provide a better transport route to the motorway starts in August. Doubt this will have any bearing on new airlines coming in.

[Chitty]

does any one know why there is a manx2 flight arriving from the isle of man tomorow at 8:50 am for

[johnnychips]

Timmy W posted on the Leeds thread, and I'm sorry I don't know how to link:

Backs up the information I heard today that Thomson will pull out of DSA and introduce more services from LBA

If so, that would be rather unfortunate to say the least. Have Thomson published a Summer 2013 programme yet?

[onyxcrowle]

Yes all flights are bookable right up to the end of October 2013 I just check availability and did a dummy booking for sharm on 28th October 2013 they have the same destinations as this year and maybe one more in turkey . So let's try be positive for DSA ;)

[ryansf]

As I sarcastically implied on the other thread, Timmy (or whatever moniker he's chosen today) is hardly the most reliable source of information, so take what he says with a bucket of salt.....

[onyxcrowle]

I missed the sarcasm there lolcc

[TimmyW]

The rumor of Thomson pulling out of DSA has been going round for a long time, and this adds more fuel to the fire. They have been steadily scaling back their DSA operation.

DSA won't be operation in a few years as a passenger airport. 4 outbound flights today in the summer season. Airlines just are not interested. There is only one way it will go.

[ericlday]

From Flightstats - 7 flights departing between 6.00 am and 9.25pm.

[TimmyW]

Is 7 enough to keep a commercial airport sustainable in the long term? Most of the catering and shopping outlets in the terminal have closed because there simply isnt enough footfall to keep them open.

Something has to change soon for DSA.

[AP1995]

surely with so few flights, DSA can not be profitable?

[TimmyW]

It isn't. It loses an obscene amount of money.

[JSCL]

Airports losing airlines and money seems to be Peels expertise right now at LPL! MME and now DSA. I was speaking to a chap at Peel who was suggesting they may dump their airport portfolio at some point in the next 3 years if things continue. To them, infrastructure and finances blue assets are important. Their airports can be borrowed against and fund large scale developments elsewhere, that's where the financial advantage is. But the benefits are no more.

[TimmyW]

DSA won't be operational as a passenger airport in 5 years time. And i'll have a wager with anyone who thinks it will be.

If Peel do decide to offload them, you could see someone taking over LPL but not DSA.

[JSCL]

TimmyW, I'll have a wager with you.

Peels estimates are that in order to break even or their operations at MME, DSA and LPL based on current operational footprint - each needs to be handling:

MME - 550,000 PPA
DSA - 750,000 PPA
LPL - 3m PPA

[TimmyW]

It was reported not long ago in the Doncaster Free Press that DSA was losing £1 million every month. Give it a few years and DSA won't be handling anywhere near 700k pax.

[JSCL]

The issue comes not to the pax numbers but who is paying what. DSA sees more than 750k PPA but makes a loss... It's a figure based on airlines paying the fee schedule, which we all know doesn't happen.

I hear that Queenie Airlines are looking at the various Peel Airports - MME, DSA and LPL.

[ryansf]

Five years? I remember someone saying that when it first opened, and here we are, seven years later.

I do wonder if the management at DSA did something to offend Timmy in the past: that amount of hate for something as trivial as an airport surely can't be good for ones health!

[dwlpl]

DSA won't be operational as a passenger airport in 5 years time. And i'll have a wager with anyone who thinks it will be.

If Peel do decide to offload them, you could see someone taking over LPL but not DSA.

Peel have already sold 67% of its to business to a company that is 50% owned by the Citigroup.

[dwlpl]

Who are Queenie Airlines?

[Northbound A1]

I dont think Timmy has anything against the airport. Its Peel who everyone is looking at. The situation is even worse at MME (dtv).

It was only a few months ago that they informed the public in the north east that airports didnt fit in with their greater plans!

The public outcry and a look at what they had been doing at MME (splitting the airport in half) made them do a swift U turn.

Peel got MME for £500k! Hundreds of acres of prime building land for only £500,000 with a false promise of spending millions... sound familiar?

A bit of History into Peels tactics and spin.
Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/letters/9474495.Airport/)

Anger after Durham Tees Valley Airport's owners snub meeting (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/stockton/9479371.Anger_after_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_s_owners_snub _meeting/)

Council chiefs accuse airport owners of broken promises (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9498944.Council_chiefs_accuse_airport_owners_of_broken_promi ses/?action=complain&cid=10044715)

Fate of Durham Tees Valley Airport to be revealed after talks (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9523513.Fate_of_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_to_be_revealed_af ter_talks/)

[livermouse]

TimmyW, I'll have a wager with you.

Peels estimates are that in order to break even or their operations at MME, DSA and LPL based on current operational footprint - each needs to be handling:

MME - 550,000 PPA
DSA - 750,000 PPA
LPL - 3m PPA
LPL is doing fine tenth largest airport in UK over five million passengers per year
And more investment, with new airlines, plus work to start late summer:ok:

[Northbound A1]

Well thats the writing on the wall for some of us then! (Teesside MME)
As posted,14th June on DTV thread. Certainly not 550,000 PPA to break even!

Good luck DSA, I think you have a better chance than here up north :ok:

MME stats.
"CAA provisional stats for May 2012
13,628 passengers for the month, down 16.5%
175,058 passengers for the last 12 months, down 24.8%
8,406 passengers on the Amsterdam route, down 7%.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Livermouse, more investment/airlines for who? DSA, MME or LPL?

[blackbeard1]

Peel airports portfolio also include Manchester City Airport and Heliport and the now defunct Sheffield City Airport or as it is now known Sheffield Business Park.

[SWBKCB]

DSA and LPL are owned by Peel Airports Limited, which is 65% owned by Vantage Airport Group (formerly Vancouver Airport Services) and 35% by The Peel Group.

Although the Peel Group also owns Manchester City Airport and Durham Tees Valley Airport, they aren't part of Peel Airports Limited.

[Northbound A1]

A bit of Peel history and what they own according to them.

Historic timeline - The Peel Group (http://www.peel.co.uk/aboutus/timeline)

The Peel owner is now worth £2,075 million!

He lives in Billown Mansion on the Isle of Man :bored:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whittaker_(businessman)

Its all about land and not aviation with Peel.

[Ringwayman]

Those pax figures needed to break even, how legitimate are they? For example, in 2009, Liverpool 5.1 million pax, £8.84 million loss (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/liverpool-airport-news-071010.html) I've seen reports of them hoping to secure their first profitable year of operations in 2008 but nothing subsequently declaring profits.

[onyxcrowle]

Who are queenie airlines ????????

[JSCL]

@Ringwayman - Those figures are based on every pax and every flight being in line with the fee schedules issues each year by each airport. EZY continues to get a good deal at LPL, so naturally, they aren't paying the fee schedule. In fact, I'd doubt anyone at LPL is.

[BKS Air Transport]

Queenie Airlines.....Monarch maybe? They seem to be in expansion mode.

[dwlpl]

Who are queenie airlines ????????

I asked that question yesterday and didnt get an answer.

[onyxcrowle]

Another made up story then . And I get shot down for suggesting Monarch . But they ate as possible as anyone I guess . I did notice though that Bodrum seems to be listed as a destination on Thomson next summer , not sure if it is a current choice

[Cazza_fly]

I did notice though that Bodrum seems to be listed as a destination on Thomson next summer , not sure if it is a current choice

It seems Bodrum was never removed from the booking system when searching for Doncaster flight / holidays after it was dropped as a destination for this summer season. It's not a current choice for DSA and is not currently planned for next summer either.

[TimmyW]

Doncaster Free Press to run a special report next week with regards to the decline and future of the airport.

[johnnychips]

Any Lourdes flights operating this year?

[idlejack]

Yes this Sunday -1st July -

[Northbound A1]

If you would like more details on the Peel millions and how the publics cash is being given to them, have a look at the DTV thread to save adding it all here.

Makes you wonder just who they have on the inside at government level while running airports into the ground doesnt it :bored:

[Fairdealfrank]

Is that "Barton"? If so, had no idea it was still open!

[lplsprog]

It's actually called City of Manchester airport by Peel so you do not to think it is connected with football. (Yes its still open, grass runways only)

[LGS6753]

From 'Travel Mole':

TUI increases holidays from South Yorkshire

TUI has announced it will offer more holidays from South Yorkshire following news of an improved road link between Doncaster Sheffield Airport and the centre of Sheffield.

TUI brands Thomson and First Choice will initially offer an extra 14,000 holidays from the airport for summer 2013.

Airport director Steve Gill said: "We expected the new road to bring additional benefits to the South Yorkshire passenger and with over 150,000 Thomson and First Choice holidays on offer from Doncaster Sheffield Airport in summer 2013 we are pleased that we remain Yorkshire"s largest operation for the company."

TUI has two Thomson Airways 737-800s based at the airport. Extra capacity will be offered next summer on flights to Palma, Dalaman and Reus.

Paul Cooper, from Thomson and First Choice, said: "The news that the Finningley and Rossington Regeneration Route Scheme link road has taken a step forward is something we have been waiting to hear for DSA.

"We are confident that this new road will open up key markets in Sheffield for us and help to attract passengers from the city."

The scheme includes the opening of a new link road from Junction 3 of the M18 serving the south-east of Doncaster, improving access to the airport from Sheffield, Rotherham and further afield.

The new road is expected to reduce journey times for airport passengers and cargo operators from Sheffield by up to 20 minutes.

Construction of the road is expected to start later this year and be operational in early 2014.

[LBIA]

Good news for DSA at last, Especially with this been on the back of the Thomson's expansion from nearby LBA next year.

But isn't this just Thomson's adding extra capacity from DSA next summer by using 2x Boeing 737-800's instead of the current 1x Boeing 737-800 and 1x Boeing 737-300 this summer?

As I'm sure with a little bit of tweaking of schedule, the 3 extra weekly flights from DSA next summer can be slotted into the 2x based aircraft flying programmes without the need of w-legs.

[onyxcrowle]

It's good news either way it works!/

[teleman]

Doncaster currently have two 737-800 based there with the 737-300 doing a w-leg.

[Keyvon]

Ryanair won't be operating any flight out of DSA this winter.

Both Girona and Tenerife South will be axed.

[Mr Mac]

Keyvon
Where did you get Ryanair info from ?.

[TimmyW]

It is correct. Ryanair have axed routes from DSA for the forseeable. More flights lost and more evidence to suggest DSA won't be a commercial airport for much longer.

[onyxcrowle]

Change the record

[TimmyW]

So - the rumor is still circulating that Wizz are pulling out of DSA.

Expect an official announcement within the next week.

Question is - can DSA survive as a commercial airport once they are gone? It will mean Thomson the only operators this winter with around 10 flights per week. :sad:

End of the road - or is there a way back?

[Keyvon]

It would be nice to see Fuerteventura, Funchal and Larnaca as additional year-round destinations from Thomson, as well as Pula, Zakinthos, Bodrum and Heraklion for the summer season and Innsbruck plus Hurghada for the winter only (some of them have operated in the last years). Cape Verde is also increasing its popularity among UK holiday market..

Where Wizzair would go ? Do they intend to leave both L'pool and Donny for Manchester, looking for another price-war with Ryanair ? Sounds quite strange to me ...

And the we will soon see if Ryanair is gone for good...no sign of them returning for the next year...

[TimmyW]

The Wizz rumor has been there for a long, long time. And it seems they are going to start from MAN.

I have a friend who works for a South Yorkshire newspaper (I won't name which one on here), and they have been informed of the pull out and will be running a story on it shortly.

Also, the DSA Facebook page has had a few questions about the matter posted by potential passengers, only for them to be immediately deleted.

It also looks as though the small offerings from Ryanair and Flybe won't be returning next year, which will mean only Thomson and Thomas Cook offering any kind of services. I can't see either expanding or anyone else coming in to plug the gaps.

To be honest, I reckon that's what Peel/VAS or whoever is running the show want. DSA was never going to work, this way, the place can die a slow death and they'll use the excuse that the public didn't support the place.

[Keyvon]

They would be very silly to relocate their ops to MAN as they feature the SAME destinations offered by Ryanair, apart from Wroclaw, Poznan and Vilnius which are served from Liverpool, but the Irish could easily move all these ones to Manchester in a twinkling in order to tighten the competion with them...

They must have quite an ambitious plan to challenge their rivals...

[TimmyW]

I'm led to believe that Wizz wanted to stay at DSA.................

[N707ZS]

Wizz werre doing quite well at Dtva until VAS came along.

[PPRuNe Pop]

We do NOT allow other threads to be started when there is one already in existant.

here:http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/487054-doncaster-sheffield.html

Please remove your latest thread soonest.

PPP

Edit: Done

[davidjohnson6]

Pop - would it be perhaps be possible to move the posts in this duplicate thread to the main thread, so that the content from the above posts is not lost ?

Edit - on 2nd thoughts, given this duplicate thread seems to just be unsubstantiated rumour about Wizz leaving Doncaster, sourced by someone who seems to have been consistently negative about DSA's future prospects, maybe it's better if all the posts in this duplicate thread do get wiped, if only so that the main thread has verifiable content...

[onyxcrowle]

Yes and it might be worth noting , Adman , that this post is way off the mark given Wizzair are at DSA through this coming winter . Timmy W seems hell bent on posting posts of doom concerning DSA so perhaps this thread should just be closed

[AirGuru]

The other thread that was started should be posted into this one. Wizz Air are speculated to be leaving DSA, but to where ? To capitalise on OLT Express going bust in Poland, to MAN, or even to CWL ? Your guess is as good as mine ...

[TimmyW]

Why is it off the mark?
An announcment for Wizz starting at MAN is days away.

[jumpseater]

TW said,
I have a friend who works for a South Yorkshire newspaper (I won't name which one on here), and they have been informed of the pull out and will be running a story on it shortly.



Post 53 TW said
Doncaster Free Press to run a special report next week with regards to the decline and future of the airport.

But they never did run the story, or those others from 2010. You have to ask why not?

We have to acknowledge the real possibility that its perhaps because he's making them up. It's good to see that Timmys 'source' who used to work for Peel in 2010, and gave him plenty of material to make Timmy look unbeliveably ill informed presumably has a new job, at Doncaster Free Press. And at least we should allow that Timmy has been consistant in the content and quality of his postings. You can take a large bet that whatever he says is going to appear in the local press, won't appear.

I was told today that a contract with a LoCo has in fact been signed very recently. So do I believe my 'source' who works at the airport, or do I believe Timmy's sources who appear to forget, (with regular monotony), to publish the stuff they tell him they're going to publish. Perhaps thats why the papers free, its so unreliable you wouldn't want to pay for it ...

[TimmyW]

It isn't free.

And a quick scour of these forums will suggest Wizz will be making a move to MAN.

When this new LoCo that you have stated doesn't happen, I'm sure i'll be quick to point out you were also incorrect.

[airhumberside]

It also looks as though the small offerings from Ryanair and Flybe won't be returning next year
I don't think either FR or BE have their Summer 2013 schedules on sale yet, at least not in full. FAR too early to come to any conclusions about what they will or won't offer

[pug]

Now I havent agreed with Jumpseater in the past, however his post is spot on TimmyW. Everything is pure speculation, and knowing how commercial departments tend to keep tight lipped for good reason. How someone at an unnamed (Freepress?) paper would be privy to so much stuff that you claim is way beyond me.

[TimmyW]

You have speculated yourself pug.

And then there is the comment that an agreement with a new loco has been signed. Absolute nonsense!

[pug]

I have, however I like to think that people know when Im speculating, and they can take it or leave it. For Instance, I can say with a degree of certainty that there will be an announcement about routes from HUY very shortly, but I can speculate that they will probably not end up actually happening..

Who said new Loco?

[TimmyW]

If you read Jumpseater's post, he states clearly that someone he knows at DSA said they have recently signed a contract with a loco.

I can safely say, this is not correct.

[pug]

Note he didnt specify who, possibly Wizz having just renewed a contract? Possibly tge multitude of low cost airlines they have probably been talking to.

I will only believe you are correct when this elusive article actually appears, and it is based on hard evidence.

[Mr Mac]

Pug
Think you will find out Wizz have renewed contract for DSA & LPL just turned the screw a bit just like all LOCO,s .

[jumpseater]

TW
If you read Jumpseater's post, he states clearly that someone he knows at DSA said they have recently signed a contract with a loco.

I can safely say, this is not correct.

No you can't say that's not correct, you are wrong again.

I have made a statement of fact.

Someone I know who works at DSA whom I spoke with today, says that DSA have recently signed a contract with a LoCo.

That is a factual statement, read whats written, not what you think is written.

If however, you are making a statement of fact, (I'll concede statistically the odds of that are possible, however remote), that no deal has been signed, it would mean you are in a senior commercial position within the DSA 'group', otherwise you wouldn't know that for a fact. You would have also just released what would be considered by any airport or airline onto a public forum, sensitive commercially confidential information. On that basis I think it likely that
a/ You're telling porkies ...
b/ You've just invented an exciting and novel way to claim your P45 ...



Pug, I know we've crossed words in the past, however, ta for that.

[ds_airporter]

Doncaster Free Press to run a special report next week with regards to the decline and future of the airport.

[Andy_S]

New name.....same old schtick......

[Keyvon]

Thomas Cook has added a 2nd weekly flight to Dalaman, as well as a new flight to Enfidha (Tunisia) operated by Nouvelair.

TCX S13 programme out of DSA :

Mon - DLM (TCX)
Tue - PMI (TCX)
Fri - DLM (TCX) and PMI (TCX)
Sun - NBE (BJ)

5 weekly flights so far! Well done, TC!

It would be nice to see also Bodrum (in a W with a Turkish carrier) :ok:which has been by TOM or an additional Greek destination not served anymore by TOM (e.g. Heraklion or Zakinthos).

[iansmith]

I flew from DSA this morning on business to Gdansk. I was struck by how full the carpark was. I had to park in the small extension beyond/ to the side of the carpark exit.

[egcntristar]

Although negativety takes pride of place on here, you wouldn't realise that around 800k per year use the airport and so the car park should look fairly full this time of year.

[jumpseater]

Tri*
Although negativety takes pride of place on here

Ohh I don't know, for example I'm positive Timmy is in the current vernacular of my daughters, 'owned' by this thread, with a staggering number of 'epic fails' in his postings.


We were told that an announcement that Wizz starting at Manchester was only days away on the fifth September.
destinations (http://wizzair.com/en-GB/destinations)
news (http://wizzair.com/en-GB/about_us/news)

Perhaps they've forgotton to add Manchester with all the excitement about launching Tel Aviv. Still I can still get to Gdansk next year from DSA, suits me.


Doncaster Free Press (http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/)
3rd week with nothing about it Timmy, looks like you're 'owned' by your contact too.


NB 'Owned has become part of standard slang, and typically follows severe defeat or humiliation, usually in an amusing way'

[TimmyW]

I must admit, I thought the news would have come sooner.

As for the extra Thomas Cook flights, I wouldn't expect these to happy now as they have had a U Turn at HUY and will be operating from there too now.

Still nothing on the cards in terms of good news for DSA. Next summer will see less passengers than this in all likeyhood as it doesn't seem FlyBe or Ryanair will be returning with any flights.

[onyxcrowle]

Tell us what other tales of doom you have ? . Is it that when as you clearly want that dsa is converted into a mega shopping centre , with the Vulcan on a pole outside , that the world will be invaded by grey skinned aliens with a passion for turning cows inside out ??

[TimmyW]

Dont talk daft.

It is obvious Peel only ever acquired the site in order to get their hands on the land. Do you ever wonder why LBA, EMA and even now HUY are getting new routes but DSA haven't had a new route announced for a good 18 month. There is zero chance of any expansion, only more loses.

[pug]

Its way too early to know what Ryanair are doing next year.

I'd be interested to see whether DSA features in plans for the relaunched bmi regional..

[ILS32]

The problem with DSA and this also applies to a number of Regional Airports is the continual reduction of passengers using the airport.The question that you should be asking yourself is why would an airline introduce new routes to airports which have falling passenger figures.DSA at the moment has negative growth and the downward trend seems to be growing.Would new routes attract more people through the airport terminal?That is the sort of question that the likes of Thomas Cook,Thomsons and Ryanair will be asking themselves.At the end of the day they are there to make money.The likes of Newcastle,Leeds,East Midlands and Manchester are still increasing passenger numbers. So if you were managing an airline where would you introduce new routes?I'm sure it would be at an airport which is increasing its terminal throughput despite the recession.

[onyxcrowle]

If BMI regional was to offer any routes I would expect Aberdeen , The airport had been chasing that on the route shop .
But again I would say what's needed is a well timed and frequent route to Amsterdam

[Wellington Bomber]

Too near HUY, LBA and EMA for Aberdeen to work, HUY is popular due to the connecting helicopters, no helis at DSA

[ILS32]

onyxcrowle
Easyjet tried it for about 9 months but couldn't make a success of it.Why would anyone else want to try again if Easyjet couldn't make it work?

[onyxcrowle]

Too large an aircraft , Didn't they use an a320 ?
If BMIR use an EMB135 it might work better

[TimmyW]

The timings were poor for the Easyjet flights to AMS. And most of the reason of negative growth at the airport is because services are being pulled. The flights that do operate are well used if press statements are to be believed.

[ben_keghead]

Apart from the AMS flights, the DSA load factors were quite good for EZY

[JordanB]

Looks like Cessna have opened their first UK Citation service center at Doncaster.

Cessna opens Doncaster Citation service centre - Corporate Jet Investor (http://corpjetfin.live.subhub.com/articles/cessna-opens-doncaster-citation-sc-519)

[horatio_b]

Using existing Kinch facility - wonder whether they will continue to service competitor's aircraft (Beech KingAir)?

[egcntristar]

Kinch had a high number of bizjets in but with the rebranding to Cessna I think there will be a much higher volume coming through...

[egcntristar]

Any more prophecies Timmy? Now Flybe have confirmed next summer....

Still nothing in the paper. Wizz, Thomson and Flybe staying, increase from Thomas Cook.

Work now starting on the link road.

[TimmyW]

Certainly.
Hearing Thomson are wanting to axe their winter schedule.

Could be partly backed up that the Paphos flight has now been axed, with no flights out on a Wednesday now.

Aircraft is being utilised elsewhere.

Mark my words, it will be closed in 3 years.

[davidjohnson6]

TimmyW - it seems surprising that Thomson would axe their winter schedule when the clocks go back and the winter season begins less than 10 days away. Perhaps you could provide something a little stronger to back up what you've heard ?

[TimmyW]

This was direct from a Thomson crew member.
Seems strange that days later the Paphos route is axed. Seems the aircraft can be better used elsewhere which was the reason I was given too.

[jumpseater]

Hearing Thomson are wanting to axe their winter schedule.

Timmy try these guys. Hearing Aids, Hearing Test & Hearing Problems | Specsavers Hearing Centres (http://www.specsavers.co.uk/hearing/)


Seems strange that days later the Paphos route is axed

Odd then that you can book flights in March 2013 on a erm, sort of a Wednesday sort of day.


In my experience, (rather than using my invisible mates piece of toast that says 'Thomson Cancel' when you shine an unlit torch through it), these flights, are often a sign of a reasonable comittment between the parties concerned.
Thomson Flights (http://flights.thomson.co.uk/thomson/en-GB/timetable/findbydate?departure=DSA&departureDay=25&departureMonth=2012-12&arrivalDay=01&arrivalMonth=2013-01)


Just remind us when Wizz start at Manchester?

[TimmyW]

You'll find Paphos doesn't operate November through to March. So what exactly is the aircraft going to do on a wednesday in those months?

The airport isn't sustainable. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

[j636]

You'll find Paphos doesn't operate November through to March. So what exactly is the aircraft going to do on a wednesday in those months?



Thomson had an aircraft at DUB in the summer that didn't operate Monday to Thurday.

Its more cost effective for TOM to ground the aircraft. Its paphas in winter its not exactly ACE, TFS where they are worm. You saving airport charges, fuel costs as well as crewing. One day not operating dosn't mean they are leaving DSA. I bet there is other bases in the UK where aircraft do operate on selected days.

[jumpseater]

Timmy, let me just remind you what you said.

Hearing Thomson are wanting to axe their winter schedule

So now you're 'owned' by a Thomson crew member who is privvy to the full commercial intentions of the TUi group, despite the Thomson group having a clear bookable schedule throughout the Winter at DSA.

If the airport isn't sustainable, why does my source tell me theres more cargo coming?

Why has Cessna, who lets face it, are probably more commercially aware than yourself, come out with this statement?
Joe Hepburn, Cessna senior vice president, Customer Service, said: “Our European customers have been asking for modernization and paint capabilities.

“Our announcement this month of new Citation Service Centres in Spain and now the UK means we can now offer these services for the more than 1,070 Citations currently operating in the region. We are extremely excited about the benefits these facilities will deliver for the region’s Citation fleet.

“The location of the Doncaster facility has been popular with our European customers and the centre has a proven record of high-quality customer service.”


With your proven track record of 'epic fails' whom should we believe more?, you? or a multi billion dollar company who already have been measuring up their site for increases in capacity? You know, a company already advertising for new staff Looking for a career in the Aviation Services industry? | Kinch Aviation Services (http://www.kinchaviation.com/media.aspx?page=Careers)


Oh, by the way, this is what your mate at the Doncaster Free Press had to say about it ...
Aviation firm brings jobs hope to Doncaster - Business - Doncaster Free Press (http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/business/aviation-firm-brings-jobs-hope-to-doncaster-1-5020913)
Note the picture too, :D another 'epic fail' from Timmys 'quality' sources.:8

[LBIA]

Well Timmy is right in saying that the passenger stats for DSA are not good reading at the minute.

Thomson's have dropped there Wednesday flight to Paphos. This will leave the airport with just 1 flight operating on a Wednesday this winter. , It surely dose beg the question as to what might happen if Thomson’s new base up the road at LBA out performs DSA next summer?
Ryanair have nothing on sale for this winter where as they operated flights to Tenerife last year. And still nothing on sale next summer yet from DSA, but its known that ryanair are normally late at releasing there summer schedules. So there is still hope that both the GRO and TFS routes could be retained for next summer.
Flybe have reduced the Jersey route from 3x to 2x weekly next summer season.
Wizz Air now look to be staying at DSA. But they have reduced some frequencies on some routes this winter compared to last year’s offerings.
Thomas Cook will increase there offerings next summer with extra 2nd weekly flights to both PMI and DLM along with a new route to NBE.

So it’s not all doom and gloom on the passenger flight front. Even though we know it could be a whole lot better. The fact that DSA can now also boast at having the new Cessna Citation Service Centre on site which is the only one in the UK is good news and it should do well.
No Cargo movements are planned at the moment, but hopefully DSA might gain more Cargo movements when the economy picks up, but they will have stiff competition from both EMA and MAN
Oh lets not forget Vulcan 558 will be operating for 1 last season next year as well.

[ILS32]

I know from reading the DSA thread that anything that TimmyW says is not taken seriously by most of you but a Cessna Service Centre and extra cargo will not sustain the airport.The only way to make the airport sustainable is more passengers through the terminal which means more flights and additional routes.The question is how does the airport achieve this.The general trend at DSA at the moment is on a downward spiral.

[MikeyMoo]

TOM aircraft not flying 1 or 2 days a week is not unusual at a regional base, NCL, CWL, EXT also has no flights on a wed, BOH wed & sat.

[TimmyW]

The facts speak for themselves.
The number of passenger routes are declining year on year. No new routes (barring one or two from Thomas Cook) are being added. Airlines are not interested in operating from DSA. Link road or no link road, it isn't going to make a difference.

How can a passenger airport survive when on some days there will be one departure? It can't.

If anyone can suggest how or when this situation will change then go ahead, but the facts speak for themselves.

[johnnychips]

The prospects for DSA are not wonderful, but I don't think as dire as you make out. You do make several valid points.

However, your occasional over-speculation and your friend at the Free Press who seems unable to file copy do not help your credibility on here.

[jumpseater]

jc, spot on re his credibility, to quote TW himself, the facts speak for themselves.


TW Quote
No new routes (barring one or two from Thomas Cook) are being added.

He can't even string a coherent sentence together, when he writes as above, 'no new routes are being added apart from the new routes being added by Thomas Cook'. :D


Now then, now then, perhaps our Leeds correspondant will be kind enough to advise which cargo movements haven't been planned?

Then I'll pass the message on to my source to check that the organised cargo movements have been planned. We wouldn't want any unplanned organised cargo movements would we. Howz about that then?

[johnnychips]

Howz about that then?

Thanks for agreeing with my post. But don't bring him into it. Thank the lord DSA had Sean Bean and Brian Blessed at opening ceremonies and statues.

[onyxcrowle]

Interesting earlier comments about two loco carries coming to dsa that allegedly featured in the free press a week or three back so who knows ....
Timmy is simply trolling with none sense stories and so on

[jumpseater]

jc
Thanks for agreeing with my post

Well I was being specific to TW's foot placed on top of foot, and six shooter skills.

Valid points from him? Haven't seen any yet, but then he's only shown a real in depth knowledge of shooting himself in the foot. The only comment I'd be likely to take any notice of would be his reccomendation for a chiropodist ...

[ILS32]

Now then, now then, perhaps our Leeds correspondant will be kind enough to advise which cargo movements haven't been planned?

I presume you are referring to me JC in regard to the quote above.I never said that extra cargo flights were not being planned for the future,I hope that you are correct has it will bring in much needed revenue for the airport and maybe protect jobs.What I said was that the Cessna Service Centre and extra cargo will not sustain the airport.The general consensus is about the long term future of the airport.

[TimmyW]

onyxcrowle - what locos? Genuinely interested to hear.

[TimmyW]

Still waiting for who these mythical two lo co's are :D

With only one departure on some days during the winter, i'd be if the the airport can be kept going for passengers.

However, I personally believe the owners have no in interest passengers services.

[jumpseater]

TW
With only one departure on some days during the winter, i'd be if the the airport can be kept going for passengers

You'd be what? Unable to string a coherent sentence together? :D

I'd get your mate from Doncaster Free Press to proof read your postings mate before you submit them. Mind you with his reliability theres no guarantee of any improvement ...

So just remind us when Wizz start at Manchester?

[TimmyW]

The Wizz rumor has been doing the rounds on here for a long time.

Fact remains, the airport cannot be commercially viable with only one departure on some days during the winter.

I still want the other poster to clarify who these two supposed lo co's are. Because I can assure you, they don't exist. There isn't a slight bit of interest from any lo co in operating out of DSA.

[North West]

Why are you so obsessed about traffic volumes on one day. Any airport will base performance on 12 months, which will include seasonal peaks and troughs. UK regional flying is a seasonal business - always has been and always will be.

[TimmyW]

And the yearly figure is one of decline. And probably further decline next year based on flights currently available.

Could quite easily be looking at another Teeside in a few years.

[rpmac]

TimmyW
I agree with you that the decline is alarming and disappointing and that on one day at least in the week there is very little movement which must have financial implications for the management. It is difficult to see other operators coming on the scene in the near future, just looking at the track record of DSA over the last few years will not help either.
Bye the way your coherent and balanced comments are appreciated.

[haylo]

It's is a rough time for most uk airports, pax figures are down at almost every airport. DSA has a low forecast winter 2012/13 but summer is looking good, better than this year so in a sense evens it's self out.

its a tough market but with the new link road things will only look more attractive for the airport.

[onyxcrowle]

Only time will tell , The link road may well make dsa a bigger cargo centre than civil.
Wednesday was quiet last winter , But put this in perspective totally not involving the uk airport scene but a neighbour has a son who lives and works in Germany ,He wanted to fly to one of the Greek islands from his local regional airport and couldn't get a ticket , he was told the reason was that the island pretty much closes down in winter and its usually busy airport didn't have ANY international flights !. So yes we can expect DSA to be quiet .
However your concerns are valid but maybe you should take up the idea I raised and write a decent open letter to their management and ask what they plan to do about it !.

[davidjohnson6]

onyx - as a very general guess, comparing a regional airport in Germany with an island airport in Greece is not an equal comparison. One airport is a major exporter of people going away for 2 weeks in the sun, while the other imports people visiting for 2 weeks of sunshine. Despite the efforts of the tourist board, Germany remains a significant net spender on tourism rather than being a recipient of funds.

The average Greek island relies on good weather and depends very heavily on summer tourists to make enough money to cover the winter when there is little work and few jobs. The average Greek beach in January just isn't that appealing.
The average regional German airport, e.g. Bremen or Leipzig, is close to a city whose economy is active throughout the year and predominantly weather independent, much like the economy of Sheffield or Doncaster.

For DSA to be credible and demonstrate that it's useful to the local and UK economy and not just a way of helping people spend their money in a different country, there should be some non-beach flights (e.g. Wizzair) all year round

[onyxcrowle]

Have Wizzair loaded summer flights yet ?

[TimmyW]

Nothing showing for Wizz or Ryanair for next summer as yet.

Wizz's schedule is down on last winter, and Ryanair operate one route last winter but nothing this year.

I want the airport to succeed as much as everyone else, but people need to be realistic. The hope for any new routes or carriers is a pipe dream, link road or not,

[idlejack]

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[ryansf]

Timmy: Next summer will see less passengers than this in all likeyhood as it doesn't seem FlyBe or Ryanair will be returning with any flights.

Both Girona and Jersey have been loaded into booking systems so far for Summer 2013. Any more 'predictions'?

[LBIA]

Yep the Jersey route might be on sale for next summer but flybe have reduced both frequency and capacity from 3x weekly mix of Dash 8 & Embrear to just 2x weekly Dash 8's. But its good to see the service has been retained.

Also after hearing the news about ryanair returning next summer, I've just checked there website and I can’t seem to find any flights available from Doncaster to Gerona in either June, July or August. So what dates did you find bookable ryansf?

[idlejack]

Ryanair Summer 2013 - They only appear to have loaded the first week so far, starting 31st March. It is just the same for Newcastle so am presuming it is at an an early stage in loading.

[idlejack]

Schedules for Girona and Tenerife now fully loaded for the summer. Same as this year.

[egcntristar]

Wizz loaded for next summer as follows, just Vilnius to go.

Katowice 4 x weekly
Gdansk 4 x weekly
Poznan 3 x weekly
Wroclaw 3 x weekly
Warsaw 2 x weekly

Slightly up on this summer by one flight. Would be good to see Wizz do Budapest 2 x weekly.

[TimmyW]

Frequencies down on this year, apart from at peak times.
Vilnius frequency reduced for the whole summer.

Where are all the new routes that were promised with the link road? :ooh:

I notice Sheffielders are campaigning for Sheffield airport to be reopened. Clearly they are not interested in using an airport a few miles up the road.

[johnnychips]

I notice Sheffielders are campaigning for Sheffield airport to be reopened.

Source? Or will it be in the Free Press tomorrow?

Has the link road been built yet?

[davidjohnson6]

johnnychips - the only related thing to TimmyW's comment that I could find was this:
BBC News - Sheffield airport runway plea to Vince Cable (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-19994799)
It seems some people want the remains of the runway left in place in the hope that the airport *might* reopen some day in the future. I can't find any credible reports that people are actively campaigning for the airport to open

[johnnychips]

"Because there's no airport and it takes a round trip of at least 2-3 hours from Doncaster to Sheffield,["] ... from the web link.

It doesn't.

Sheffield airport flights to 'business' destinations didn't make a profit, and DSA will not attract that sort of traffic either. So it's off to MAN or the Eurostar - whose relocation to St Pancras incidentally makes the train option for Europe more attractive from both Sheffield and Doncaster, especially if Eurostar and/or DB realise their plans to have services extend beyond Brussels in the next few years.

[onyxcrowle]

Perhaps if DB ran the railways we would be better off !

[blackbeard1]

I think you will find that DB run trains in the UK, they bought Arriva in 2010 and run trains including Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern Railways, CrossCountry, Grand Central Railway, Tyne & Wear Metro etc
BTW
DB Schenker Rail are at Lakeside Business Park
Carolina Way
Doncaster

[onyxcrowle]

I was meaning the East coast route. Perhaps using their I.C.E train ;)

[JordanB]

Wizz Air Signs 5-year deal with Doncaster Sheffield Airport (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/press-releases/wizz-air-signs-5-year-deal-with-doncaster-sheffield-airport.html)

Excellent news!

[CKT789]

http://www.routesonline.com/news/36/the-hub/171067/wizz-air-agrees-new-deal-with-liverpool-and-doncaster-sheffield-airports/

5 year deal...

[ATNotts]

Imagine the furore in the Mail, Express and Sun were the DB to advertise the fact that they run great chunks of our rail system! Even worse if they painted their trains in DB livery!

As for ICE on the east Coast Mainline - chance would be a fine thing!

[pug]

This is excellent news, as they state their fleet will increase by 11 to 50 by 2014. IMO a couple of these may be earmarked for DSA.

If DSA was to become a base, it would open the possibility of adding routes to other parts of Europe.

[davidjohnson6]

TimmyW - any thoughts or comment on the news from Wizz ?

[horatio_b]

I think that the mention in the announcement of "lowest possible cost base" and "low fees" indicates which side had the upper hand in the negotiations. The recent hints
about a move to Manchester no doubt helped persuade Peel to accept the deal.
I would think that ancillary revenue, such as car parking income, would be pretty low from Wizz flights. However it is a good to see this deal guaranteeing some level of security for both airports.

[TimmyW]

A move to Manchester was a very real possibility. As reports confirm.
It seems Peel have been forced to drop their demands to ensure they keep Wizz.

Hopefully DSA can build from this positive news. I remain skeptical of any real growth however.

[pug]

I remain skeptical of any real growth however.

Daniel de Carvalho, corporate communications manager at Wizz Air, said: "We've been approached by Manchester but we're very focused on working with Liverpool and Doncaster. We may increase frequencies and routes and we're also looking to increase our presence in London - in Luton we're the second airline."

He added: "Over the next couple of years we're aiming to fly 750,000 people from Liverpool and 1.3 million from Doncaster."

News**/**Wizz Air signs up for another five years at JLA THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/403517-wizz-air-signs-up-for-another-five-years-at-jla.html?news_section=4148)#

It depends what he would consider as a 'couple of years', but considering Wizz currently carry around 300,000 passengers to/from DSA p/a, then it would suggest there is some 'real' growth to come.

[FRatSTN]

I'd like to see a few more Ryanair destinations. Not saying it should become a base (although a small one a bit like Bournemouth could work) but a few more European routes eg. the return of Alicante, Dublin Faro, Pisa and may be one or two new ones like Milan or maybe Wroclaw to compete with Wizz and perhaps a few routes on W patterns to places like Krakow or Warsaw. Not sure Peel would like that idea though but some more Ryanair flights to other European destinations would be highly welcomed I'm sure!

[JordanB]

Wizz currently carry around 300,000 passengers to/from DSA then it would suggest there is some 'real' growth to come.

Since Wizz started operations at DSA in 2006, they've carried 1.2 million passengers. By the sounds of the articles it seems that we may have more flights for the routes we have currently, and the possibility of new routes. (That's if they do go ahead to try and aim for 1.3 million passengers over the next couple of years.)

[TimmyW]

Unless, in reality they aim for 1.3 million over the duration of the contract.

[bad bear]

I was looking at the Doncaster departures and arrivals board yesterday and there were only 2 departures and 2 arrivals. What happens to the coffee shops, news agents, restaurants, checking staff, security staff and bar on such quiet days? Does the terminal close down between flights and only have part time staff or does it stay open 24/7? Is Doncaster really as quiet as Dundee and only half as busy as Teeside?

bb

[MARKEYD]

Dont worry its slightly worse at Bournemouth ! , today just 1 flight on the board and nothing on a Wednesday at all , so same question does Bournemouth close as well between flights ?

[Cazza_fly]

I was looking at the Doncaster departures and arrivals board yesterday and there were only 2 departures and 2 arrivals. What happens to the coffee shops, news agents, restaurants, checking staff, security staff and bar on such quiet days? Does the terminal close down between flights and only have part time staff or does it stay open 24/7? Is Doncaster really as quiet as Dundee and only half as busy as Teeside?


In cases like this everything airside closes once the aircraft has departed. It will depend on each individual shop/outlet on what happens to the staff during the closed period, i.e continue to use this time to restock, tidy clean etc or shut up fully. Landside the airports doors will remain open to the public, however the shops will be closed and you will probably see nothing more than a deserted terminal building.

The airline ground agents will usually finish after the departure of the aircraft when there is a large gap between flights. A few skeleton staff will remain as the airport is still open for operations 24 hours a day throughout the year and so a team would be there should there be a diversion for example.

A number of the security team will remain where needed. The central passenger search area in the terminal building will be closed just like overnight to keep staffing levels to a minimum.

On a Wednesday at DSA throughout the winter there is now only one departure in the evening. It would be a good idea for the airport to keep the terminal building closed off to the public during the day until say atleast 3 to 4 hours before the planned departure time of the flight (currently 21:25). This would help to reduce costs further by being able to save electricity - no or lower level light settings required, lower heating settings, less security walkaround checks and even potentially less need for cleaning services for example.

Hope this helps!

[TimmyW]

Ryanair have pulled the Tenerife flight that was announced for next summer.
Yet more bad news and another route lost.

It must be 3 years now since any route expansions were announced at DSA. Despite the Wizz Air contract, things look desperate.

And to answer the previous question...........there are barely any shops etc to keep open anyway. All the landside shops and cafe's have now closed down permanently, leaving only a Wetherspoons and duty free shop open airside which will be open when flights operate. In fact on my last visit a couple of months ago, even these facilities weren't open. No where to buy a drink or anyhting.

[wb9999]

TimmyW, your comments about landside facilities are not correct. There is a WH Smith and Wetherspoons landside. Both are open daily, although opening hours do vary according to flights.

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair have pulled the Tenerife flight that was announced for next summer.
Yet more bad news and another route lost.


Its not being dropped.

[AP1995]

Its not appearing bookable throughout summer, so it looks like it has.

[Jamie2k9]

It will operate on Mondays.

[AP1995]

It is not bookable.

[egcntristar]

The merry go round continues as Peel Group have aquired DSA. Which now just leaves LPL in the hands of Peel Airports (the joint company with VAS).

Its all very murky.

[jumpseater]

Well only goes to show that those who think they know whats going on dont. Wheres Timmys mates from Peel and Donny free press all of a sudden, they can't be much good if they didn't know about this, which has been known about by those who do know for a little while ...

Still with all the expertise we've had shown here theres the opportunity for someone to show us all how it should be done:
Current Job Vacancies at Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield Airport (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/865/866/current-vacancies-at-the-airport.html)

No doubt all those telling us how the airport should be run will be applying, with all their relevant experience they'll be able to walk it.

Inteviewer; So how much experience have you got?
Interviewee: Oh I've got 246 posts on prune:8, and I read all the rumours and run from forum to forum posting the same stuff in different places.:rolleyes:
Interviewer; Ok anything else you can tell us?
Interviewee; Oh yes, I use the Vista Microsoft Airport Manager Software Simulator:=
Interviewer; Stifles a giggle knowing everyone else in the industry is either using Airport manger XP or MAMS 8.0, because those actually work ...
Yeh thanks for that we'll be in touch ..

PS anyone who thinks Sheffield Airport was viable need not apply.:D

[pug]

I take a bow, Sir Jumpseater. :ugh:

[TimmyW]

VAS have obviously jumped ship as they see no future for the airport.

First step, in my opinion of quietly winding the place up.

[Northbound A1]

The link.
Media | Press Releases | News Release - 20th December 2012 (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/press-releases/news-release-20th-december-2012.html)

[N707ZS]

Did anyone make or loose any money out of these deals?

[DSA-DUB]

TimmyW in my opinion you talk the biggest load of crap of any forum I've ever read.

[TimmyW]

Really?
The airport isn't sustainable. And i'm yet to see anyone provide a valid counter argument, one that indicates growth and a stable future........

[ryansf]

Further to previous discussion, Tenerife HASN'T been dropped, and is now 'back' on sale....:rolleyes:

[Teevee]

"VAS have obviously jumped ship as they see no future for the airport.

First step, in my opinion of quietly winding the place up."

Or maybe the opposite .... VAS weren't the saviours every one seemed to think ... look at their airports. They either just keep things ticking over or have airports that 'develop' themselves ....

[bad bear]

Back in december 2006 the following was written by the Doncaster Airport Management:

The passenger numbers for the first 12 months of operation were 840,000 and
rapid growth is forecast for future years. Indeed, by the end of 2007 the numbers
are predicted to be approaching 2 million and this is anticipated to double by the
end of 2010.
Where do we find the official statistics to compare this to reality?

bb

[davidjohnson6]

Badbear - passenger stats are published by the CAA on their website. In the case of Doncaster you can also find a summary on the wikipedia page for Doncaster airport.

[bad bear]

Number of Passengers[11] Number of Movements[12] Passengers Change YoY
2005 600,907 6,914 -
2006 948,017 10,642 Increase57.8%
2007 1,078,374 12,667 Increase13.8%
2008 968,481 13,066 Decrease10.2%
2009 835,768 10,584 Decrease13.7%
2010 876,153 11,030 Increase4.8%
2011 822,877 11,876 Decrease6.1%

Thanks davidjohnson6 its a really useful summary. looks like another airport with delusions of 4 million passengers and not quite making the 1.3million breakeven figure.

When the airport confidently predicted 2 million passengers in 2007 and delivered 55% of that, were the exagerating or did something change? To be 80% below the 2010 estimate seems extreme.

If I divide the 12,000 movements by 365 I get 32 but the movements board has shown as few as one inbound and on outbound in a day seldome more than 4 in and 4 out, has the place taken a bit of a down turn over the last few months?

bb

[wb9999]

To be 80% below the 2010 estimate seems extreme.

Not considering the economy has been going south since 2008. Many regional airports will be seeing large decreases on the projections for 2008 onwards. For a new airport (the airport was only 3 years old when the economic woes started), the drop will be more extreme. Peel have large pockets, and so DSA will be able to survive the downturn.

[aboveusonlysky]

All airports in the uk are well short on their passenger forecasts and not just DSA. When Manchester had its 2nd runway approved, the mid range forecast provided at the public inquiry was for 43.5 million passengers by 2015, some 20m pax adrift. At the DSA public inquiry, Manchester Airport themselves had forecast DSA's traffic to reach 8.5m pax. Several things have happened affecting all uk airports, not just DSA.....the growth bubble burst when the economy went south and when low cost airlines recognised they could get better returns by basing planes in eastern european markets, and the sensitive Treasury dept introduced and kept raising the APD tax, a flying tax unique to the uk, which effectively taxes growth out of our skies and encourages the airlines also to base planes elsewhere.

[bad bear]

Im not sure when Peel bought the airport but would guess it was around 1999 when fuel hit its historic low of $17 Barrel. By 2007 it was $80 and a year later $140. Senior anylists expect $200 by 2020.

The BIG question is; what would have to change to get the industry back to the earlier expectations, and how likely is it for whatever it is to happen?

Perhaps the expectetions were based on undertaxation and un realistically cheap oil? It might be that we will never see the number of passengers that were once predicted.

bb

[wb9999]

Im not sure when Peel bought the airport but would guess it was around 1999 when fuel hit its historic low of $17 Barrel. By 2007 it was $80 and a year later $140. Senior anylists expect $200 by 2020.

The BIG question is; what would have to change to get the industry back to the earlier expectations, and how likely is it for whatever it is to happen?

I don't think the price of oil has that big an impact, as the budget airlines (especially Ryanair and Easyjet) are constantly expanding and seeing increasing passenger numbers.
The economy is the big thing. Airlines are being very careful about where to open routes, and they expect returns much quicker to justify the cost of basing a £50 million aircraft at a particular airport. They quickly ditch poor performing routes and move aircraft to other airports. When the economy improves (not if, as it has to improve at some stage otherwise Western Europe will be f******), regional airports will surely see passenger numbers rise.

[ILS32]

wb9999

If it was just the economy being the problem then all the regional airports would be in the same situation as DSA.This is not the case,the northern regional airports with large catchment areas are continuing to expand.The likes of Leeds,Manchester and Newcastle are seeing new airlines and more routes being introduced.You have said in your above post the airlines will go where the money is.The concern for DSA is similar to MME once an airline reduces its frequencies or stops flying altogether will they return even if the economy improves?

[aboveusonlysky]

Some good points but the one point missed is that airlines do consolidate when economies are going down, most businesses do in fact. Consolidation in this industry does mean that those airports with less flights will be more likely to lose them and those that have more flights will be less likely to.

This is also because more the airline costs will be fixed at their larger stations. During better times economically, more regional airports prospered, the hope now must be to ride out the recession to the point where airlines want to grow new markets again.....also maybe even properly grow the likes of Manchester again, as their figures are the furthest away from what had been forecast 5-10 years ago.

If the government want to give these airports and regions a kick start, all they need do is admit their APD tax is counter-productive and scrap it, therefore returning UK airports to a level playing field with Europe.

[TimmyW]

Hearing rumblings of more bad news for DSA

[onyxcrowle]

Like? What. What gleefull bad news will you bround and happy to see. Seeingvhow your desperate ti see it shut

[johnnychips]

Hearing rumblings of more bad news for DSA

Why didn't your mate in the Free Press print it on Thursday?

Eventually there will be another setback for DSA - there are for all airports - and you will be able to say 'I told you so' as you have come out with this so often. You are the reverse of the boy who cried 'Wolf'.

I know this is a rumour network, but rumours usually have more meat than unspecified 'rumblings'.

[wb9999]

Ignore TimmyW. He just wants you to think "I know something that you don't, but I won't tell you". It's like being back at school.

[blackbuck]

His claims have never come to anything. Like its been said he says it regular enough to eventually be correct. :zzz: boring

[NorthSouth]

To my mind the big problem with Peel's traffic projections for DSA in the early days was that huge proportion of the traffic - from memory it was around 80% - was not new travellers, it was business poached from Manchester, Leeds-Bradford and Humberside.
NS

[aboveusonlysky]

NS, an interesting perspective...but poached? hardly, when those passengers actually live in South Yorkshire and any passenger wants to fly from their local airports if they have a choice

[onyxcrowle]

Lets look at the surrounding airports . Lba man etc.at a similar age as DSA is now . Lower flight numbers operators came and went. Leeds had highs and lows. Recent youtube fottage shown 80's sometime departures boards read like Dsa today.
Its taking time to establish.without talking too much about it ( might jinx it ). But klm if we get decent timings v early morning flights say 6.30 .into amd in 45 mins. So hood connections.

Dsa can matket then klm to the world as they have elsewhere. Heres hoping.
Though if they did in sheer luck give us a three or for times daily
Then finally that needed hub connection will spur others to join in esp the likes oof ryan air

[N707ZS]

One of the DTVA Trolls posted this on the DTVA forum you guys might find it interesting.

Peel news
I only ask as they made this cargo announcement about the other Peel airport down the road a few days ago.

Cargo Growth for South Yorkshire's Airport - The Peel Group (http://www.peel.co.uk/news/cargogrowthforrobinhoodaiport)

Cargo Growth for South Yorkshire's Airport
Tuesday, 15 January 2013
Doncaster Sheffield Airport (http://www.peel.co.uk/activities/aviation)is on target to record a three hundred per cent increase in its cargo figures for the year March 2012 - March 2013, bosses announced today.
The airport, which last year boosted its cargo offering by developing a number of strategic partnerships, is forecasting moving in excess of 400 tonnes of cargo by the year end.
Steve Gill, managing director said: "We made a number of decisions last year which have already started to pay off in terms of our cargo offering.
"Cargo is seen as a catalyst for developing the region's logistics presence and putting Doncaster firmly on the map as a can do location and centre of excellence for logistics
"Working with two key operators, who are now based on site at the airport, Anglo World Cargo, experts in the freight industry and Weston Aviation, who have a proven track record for attracting business aviation, cargo flights and ad-hoc charters, we have been able to attract more companies to use this fantastic South Yorkshire facility."
Working in partnership with both these operators DSA is now providing a product that is both facilitating and developing the movement of freight to and from the Yorkshire, Humber and Midlands regions.
"We have one clear objective - to develop a cargo product which will allow the partners, the airport, businesses in the region and the region itself to develop business in this sector.
"This partnership has seen one billion pounds worth of goods pass through the airport in the last six months alone.
"Our facility has already been welcomed positively in the marketplace as a viable contender to other major freight airports within the UK," added Steve.
The airport's Cargo Terminal consists of 50.000 sq. ft. of operational space and is equipped with the latest cargo handling equipment. This, coupled with the airport's 2893m runway, means that Anglo World Cargo have the ability to handle all aspects of airfreight from the smallest parcel to bespoke charters of the largest cargo aircraft, up to and including Antonov-225's.
"Cargo is a real growth area for us and we are determined to build on this success. Future developments such as the Finningley and Rossington Regeneration Route Scheme (FARRRS), a direct link road to the motorway network means that soon the airport will be even more accessible.
"The FARRRS project will add further weight to the proposition and will create a fantastic multimodal facility with road, rail, air and sea coming together.
"We've always seen Air Freight as a major part of the airports strategy and are delighted by our new partners' proactive and dedicated approach.
"Whilst the economy continues to be challenging nationally, we believe we can offer the marketplace a cost effective and flexible solution to moving airfreight in and out of the UK. In addition, we look forward to working with the Sheffield City Region's successful manufacturing and logistics sector to help local businesses export effectively."

[mikerawsonderby]

Without wishing to sound too troll-y, 400t is half of what EMA sees in one night - just putting things into context!

Mike

[onyxcrowle]

True. Though Dsa is a new airport. I was reading the history of Ema the other day. Seemingly it had a fair few financial stability issues in the early days.
I can see Dsa making a good go of Cargo eventually. The economy will pick up soon. And once that link road is done im sure it will bring more freight etc

[TimmyW]

The airport is in a very precarious situation at the moment with regards to Thomson. They want out. It doesn't take a genius to work out what would happen should they leave.

I see KLM are opening up more routes to the UK. DSA won't figure at all.

[davidjohnson6]

TimmyW - there is a perception that you are rather more negative on this thread than is justified by what actually happens. As an example, over 2 months ago, you wrote:

Ryanair have pulled the Tenerife flight that was announced for next summer.
Yet more bad news and another route lost.

I note that on the Ryanair website, tickets continue to be sold for summer 2013 between Doncaster and Tenerife. I am therefore puzzled why you think the Tenerife route has been lost.

Perhaps you could provide something that will allow others to verify your assertion that Thomson want out of Doncaster airport ?

[AP1995]

In Timmy's defence, the Ryanair TFS route wasn't bookable for weeks, which we did presume that the route has been dropped.

[wb9999]

In Timmy's defence he did add up 2 + 2 and came up with 5.

[TimmyW]

Why would Thomson be diluting their services from DSA and offering more from LBA?

Also more media nonsense from DSA about how 2013 is going to be "their year". How exactly? I don't see any new routes or airlines!

[jumpseater]

Also more media nonsense from DSA about how 2013 is going to be "their year".


And if theres an expert on media nonsense on this thread, you're the kiddy! How are your mates inside Peel, the newspaper, and the Wizzair Commercial development team?

On your previous record, it seems like the chance of them providing you with any factual information, is about as likely as Findus finding beef in their burgers.

[peachair732]

On a recent trip to DSA, I was flabbergasted at the amount of flights to Poland. The demand must be huge due to economic migration, its certainly true that many town in the catchment area for DSA have large numbers of Polish workers. I expect the load factors on the Wizzair flights are high? I think in light of the fact that its the Polish flights that are keeping DSA alive, then there should be more Polish speaking staff at DSA.

[wowk]

Anyone know if the TCX 757 is still going to continue its services to turkey and pmi for summer 2013? Also i've heard there's a lot of 738's going to bhx and ema for summer 13 so anyone know if dsa may home a TOM 757 for the summer season?

[Cazza_fly]

I expect the load factors on the Wizzair flights are high? I think in light of the fact that its the Polish flights that are keeping DSA alive, then there should be more Polish speaking staff at DSA.

What would make you believe there isn't any/enough Polish speaking staff at DSA? Should this be the case anyway, they have operated well enough for the past 7 years or so...


Anyone know if the TCX 757 is still going to continue its services to turkey and pmi for summer 2013? Also i've heard there's a lot of 738's going to bhx and ema for summer 13 so anyone know if dsa may home a TOM 757 for the summer season?


TCX 757 at DSA are currently only planned to operate services to and from NBE. The TCX flight to DLM and PMI are currently planned to operate with A320/1 aircraft dependant on which day of the week.

As for TOM, they are slowly scaling back on the 757 fleet and increasing the 738 fleet - hence the increase you will see of these aircraft at many of their summer bases. You will find the majority of the 757 fleet becoming confined to TOMs larger bases at LGW and MAN over the summer months in the next couple of years. This summer DSA will have the usual 2x 738 based plus the odd couple of W-pattern flights - These also operated by the 738s.

[TimmyW]

Seems several of the planned Thomas cook flights now won't be operating this summer, and some question whether the jersey flight will operate as planned.

Yes definitely DSAs tear isn't it, just more lost flights.

[LAX_LHR]

TimmyW, do you plan on changing the record any time soon. That copy is starting to sound a little worn?

[Andy_S]

Seems several of the planned Thomas cook flights now won't be operating this summer

Seems means nothing. Are they or aren't they?

some question whether the jersey flight will operate as planned.

Some being, errr, yourself I take it.

Has the local rag printed that scathing expose of DSA yet?

[Cazza_fly]

Seems several of the planned Thomas cook flights now won't be operating this summer,..

All of the TCX flights are planned to operate. The only exception could be the Friday Palma services from the end of May. These are Thomas Cook holidays flights that are due to be operated by Orbest Airlines (Iberworld). DSA or Thomas Cook are not alone in this as the uncertainty of Orbest Airlines starting up operations again looks unlikely at the moment.

...and some question whether the jersey flight will operate as planned.


Jersey... Who's the some? Flybe don't seem to be questioning this...

[pug]

DSA or Thomas Cook are not alone in this as the uncertainty of Orbest Airlines starting up operations again looks unlikely at the moment.

Should be operating as planned due to the takeover of Orbest Airlines announced yesterday.

[onyxcrowle]

Thats a relief for HUY then Pug

[j636]

I heard that no charters will be going ahead whatever the out come of the discussions and the deal has yet to be approved. Then saying that some might go ahead but I can't see operators prepared to take the risk even though they have being taken over.

[pug]

Lowcostholidays and Thomas Cook have put their HUY flights back on sale after a temporary halt..

[LBIA]

Flybe have now confirmed that the planned Thursday Doncaster-Jersey flight has been axed so that the route will only operate once weekly on Saturdays this summer season.

[TimmyW]

Yet more reductions then. I struggle to see how anyone can be optimistic about DSAs future for passenger flights when month on month more routes and flights are axed, with absolutely no increase to current routes or new routes announced.

[johnnychips]

Yet more reductions then

One reduction.

Not good news, but not meltdown.

[ILS32]

It may be one reduction but unfortunately these reductions keep happening.If something is not done soon to halt this trend then eventually there will be nothing left to reduce.

[bad bear]

One of the TWO flights departing Doncaster today will be in daylight. Looking at the departures board over the last few weeks it seems that most of the flights are at night, is there a case for giving up the huge volume of controlled airspace during day light hours?

bb

[A300BOY]

I fully agree with that sentiment !!! how the hell they justify keeping that amount of airspace defeats me. I have found on a busy good flying day that it is almost impossible to transit this airspace as the controllers are overloaded with traffic.

[HOODED]

Not only that when you go around the edge of thir airspace with the transponder
on and monitoring their frequency they call you to ask if you intend to enter. I'm starting to wonder if they justify the aidspace by the amount of traffic they talk to.

[SFCC]

It's an utter travesty that they have such a slab of air for the pitiful amount of CAT.
Can't see it lasting. Thankfully

[johnnychips]

Wouldn't disagree with that at all.

[bad bear]

Today 23 hours 30 minutes without Commercial trafic only TWO departures within 30 min and the rest of the day? Nothing!
discuss?
bb

[TSR2]

discuss?

Seems like there is nothing to discuss ;)

[A300BOY]

For me it was one Airport too many ! I have always said it is far superior to either Leeds or Humberside as regards total development area and runway length but Leeds has had major success in attracting new operators ,due in my opinion, to an excellent marketing team which makes it by far the regions main airport.
The recession has hit most airports growth expectations but DSA has done worse than most. If the owners keep faith it may start to grow again when the overall market picks up but as Humberside is seeing new operators this summer it makes you wonder if this is another blow to DSA.

[DSA-DUB]

DSA would of had a new airline this summer but Lba poached the airline.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Naughty Leeds, naughty Leeds. :rolleyes:

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

Never did though, did it, at DSA.

Every rival around them picking up new business and operators, yet DSA isn't even treading water anymore.

Time for an airspace review, give it back to the leisure flyers and gliders.

Liverpool in decline, Durham on life support, DSA withering on the vine; not looking good.

[Northbound A1]

Thats Peel for you in the airport industry. :yuk:

[ILS32]

You are right A300BOY the airport is situated in a superb position in regard to a lot of other airports.The scope for development is excellent and so is its runway.When DSA opened I believe it was expected that lots of airlines would be attracted because of the runway length.The mgmt running the airport believed it.Long haul destinations would be flown within a few years.Remember the forecasts in the number of passengers that would be lured away from MAN,EMA,LBA to fly from DSA.Their Original Business Plan looked like it couldn't fail.Unfortunately the future has turned out different to what was believed would happen.The question to be answered is why with all its potential is DSA in the position it finds its self now? It will be a clever person who can supply the answer.

[GayFriendly]

Let's face it the days (and novelty) of flying off to discover the delights of a European city or have a weekend beach break for £20 with a loco are all but over. It was on this type of (IMO unsustainable in the long term) operations that airports like DSA expanded. The recession and hikes in APD have all but killed off this type of discretionary 'travel just because we can' travel. As a result, airlines are consolidating their ops and sadly airports like DSA, MME, BOH, NWI, PIK and to a lesser extent LPL are now feeling the pinch because of this. Not saying it's right but that is the way it is right now.

I am assuming the airline mentioned that LBA allegedly 'poached' was ZB?

Perhaps if DSA had 'poached' KL from HUY and persuaded BE to stay and develop their network from DSA things wouldn't be looking as bad.

[bad bear]

Time for an airspace review, give it back to the leisure flyers and gliders.

I fully agree. How does one go about campaigning for the removal of this huge volume of wasted airspace?

Even Humberside and Teeside are busier.
bb

[NorthSouth]

I think Prestwick was the last airport to have its controlled airspace withdrawn - in 1993. In 1992 - the year the decision was taken - it had 2197 commercial air transport movements. So if that was the sole criterion (which it isn't), DSA has some way to go, being on about 6000 a year.
NS

[A300BOY]

DSA-DUB
To be fair Dsa poached Thomsons from Leeds at the very beginning having assumed all the Leeds customers would be happy to travel down to Dsa instead. They seem to have got it wrong and have now begun a return to their original home having only added to the growth of Jet 2 at Leeds over the last ten years. They picked up many of the Leeds area Thomson customers and have continued to be very aggressive at many other northern airports but not, for whatever reason, at Humberside or Dsa. Maybe they do not want to dilute the passenger levels at Leeds until the market shows growth again.
I think Humberside will plod along ok with its helicopter operations together with summer charters and Klm flights. Wizz Air seem to be populating the Boston area and Dsa is very well placed for that so it seems they will be happy to stay with you.

[bad bear]

In terms of CAT movements Doncaster has already dropped to 4348 just ahead of Teeside @ 4188 and well behind Humberside @ 12,000
2190 annual movents = 3 in and 3 out per day which is what Doncaster has been doing on a good day reciently.
bb

[NorthSouth]

bb: comparing two different stats there. The ones I was using are total CAT movements, including air taxi. The ones you quote are non-air taxi. Air taxi includes charters by aircraft as big as Do328 and Saab 340 so perhaps a bit of a misnomer.

As an update to the last, Southend lost their CAS in 1992 when they were running at 4589 total CAT movements, so not that far off DSA's current levels.

DAP would have to respond if there were submissions from e.g. BGA, AOPA, LAA etc to withdraw DSA's CAS. But I suspect their attitude to withdrawing CAS from an airport with pax schedules will be rather different to what it was in the 90s when we were all so much more risk-tolerant.

NS

[DSA-DUB]

LBA haven't poached Thomson from DSA.

[TimmyW]

There is no future for DSA as a commercial airport. The last new route that was added was Vilnius over 2 years ago. The place is a ghost town, becoming run down with absolutely zero maintenance of the facilities.

The work on the so called link road still hasn't started yet, despite being meant to last autumn, and there are now serious questions over funding.

I predict, within 5 years, DSA will not exist, unless there are some massive, massive changes.

[wb9999]

DSA has higher passenger numbers than other regional airports such as Bournemouth, Norwich, Southend, Humberside and Blackpool. I visit DSA regularly and don't recognise the "ghost town" and "run down" place that TommyW describes. It's not busy by any stretch of the imagination and a lack of passenger flights, but there is regular activity and frequent arrivals and departures by business, cargo and training flights. There is a letter in today's Free Press from a nearby resident complaining about the high number of non-passenger flights.

Preparatory works have started on the link road. The Highways Agency will not permit construction work to start until the White Rose Way dualling is complete. An extra lane is scheduled to be added to the M18 between junctions 2 and 3, and I suspect the Highways Agency will want this to be completed before the link road opens as the M18 is at capacity at peak times.

[BarTT]

So people want the CAS removed. How will that attract new business and increase Commercial movements?
I don't understand why people are so against CAS. It's a known traffic environment. Before the CAS people used for fly towards the Doncaster ATZ because they could!
How would you like to be on an inbound flight that is having to be vectored all over the place to avoid the unknown traffic? Or as a few week ago, having to wait on the ground because unknown traffic is inside CAS pointing towards the overhead? I've got a PPL, am an ATCO and my fav past time is going on holiday, so I have a balanced view

[bad bear]

wb9999
I think you will find that Bournemouth has more passengers than Doncaster over the last 12 months (688,552 v/s 688240),also a ghost town, and Southend will overtake Doncaster in the feb figures.
BarTT
It seems that CAS and attracting passengers are not linked. Manston and Southend have both grown without CAS while Bournemouth, Doncaster, Liverpool and Teeside (164,000) have all decreased markedly.
If controllers respected the rules of class"D" i.e. IFR separated from IFR and information on VFR, avoiding heading on request, there would be fewer requests to remove the almost empty airspace. A "known trafic environment" is good but the current "no trafic environment" is bad. VFR trafic has been refused entry to Doncaster due to a single light twin doing IFR training and that is simply wrong. The twin should have had separation from any IFR and trafic information on any VFR.
bb

[wb9999]

bad bear, for the whole of 2012 Doncaster is ahead of Bournemouth (693,129 vs 689,755). It's only in January 2013, that Bournemouth overtook DSA with a few hundred extra passengers, but that could easily have changed in February.

I think using arguments about Southend and Manston with regards to Class D will fall on deaf ears - Southend will likely have Class D very soon (they have applied for it already), even though they had 70,000 fewer passengers in 2012 than DSA. Manston only had 7,000 passengers in the whole of the last 12 months.

BarTT, I agree partly with your comments. I heard about the infringement a couple of weeks ago, and sometimes general aviation does not help itself with instances like this. But I've heard regular stories about zone transits being declined due to IFR training (as bad bear says), which should not happen. Are some ATCOs too cautious?

[BarTT]

In all the time that the CAS has been there, I've denied one crossing and I had a complaint from the flying association concerned! If there as many people being denied transits as implied on here, PM me and I'll look into it.

[A300BOY]

I just route round this airspace if possible as when its a good flying day the Doncaster controllers are overloaded and often unable to reply other than to ask you to standby

[Wellington Bomber]

On the notams this last week, it has said we will not accept any diversions due to weather.

Thats a clever decision is it not

[Barling Magna]

Southend will likely have Class D very soon (they have applied for it already), even though they had 70,000 fewer passengers in 2012 than DSA.

Don't forget that Southend's easyJet services only got underway in April 2012 so Southend will overtake DSA over a full operational year. Southend has the advantage of a direct rail line into London within 55 minutes and its on course for a million pax per year for 2014, so its application for controlled airspace should be successful.