Foreign pilots as temporary workers for Airlines in Canada

[Montrealguy]

I have, for a few weeks now, engaged in a private campaign to fight the abusive use by Sunwing and Canjet of foreign pilots as Temporary workers in Canada. I wrote letters to the Minister of Immigration, Jason Kenney, to the Human Resources, Skills and Development Canada Minister, Diane Finley, to the Transport Canada Minister, Mr Denis Lebel, to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and finally to the Canadian Transportation Agency.

I have discovered that many others, including the two largest pilot Unions in Canada, ALPA and ACPA, have for years attempted to address this problem, which is getting worse every year, but with very little success. The various government agencies they wrote to or met with, have mostly lent a deaf ear to their complaints.

Sunwing and Canjet cater to travelers flying to sun destinations, a market which mostly exists between late December and April, and the rest of the year to a lessor degree. They have small year round fleets (about 8 and 5 aircraft respectively) which they more than double with short term leases for the high season. This past winter, Sunwing had approx 21 aircraft while Canjet operated around 13 aircraft.

To crew these extra jets during the short winter season, they hire short term temporary pilots, which is fine. But instead of finding a method that would allow them to hire short term pilots in Canada, they outsource these jobs to pilots from other countries.

One method to hire short term foreign pilots that is used by Sunwing is acceptable in my view, if it is done correctly and according to the existing regulations. It's the reciprocity method. That allows for x number of foreign pilots to come to work in Canada for Sunwing during its high season, in the winter, if in exchange, a similar number of Sunwing pilots go work overseas during Sunwing's low season, the summer, which happens to also be the high season in Europe. That method would be acceptable if the number of foreign pilots coming to work in Canada was of the same magnitude as the number Canadian pilots going to work overseas, but it is not. Sunwing has been importing much more pilots under the reciprocity Regs as it has been exporting.

To make matters worse, the pilots who work on wet-leased aircraft do no count in this scheme, for regardless of where in the world they are flying, they are still working for their home employer, under the home employers certificate. So when Sunwing Wet-Leases a Foreign Aircraft, the pilots of the Foreign Aircraft do not need work Permits from Immigration Canada, nor do they need Foreign Licence Validations from Transport Canada. Same goes for when Sunwing sends Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-Leases. So if Sunwing imports 50 pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian Registered aircraft under the Sunwing Operating Certificate, these require Visas from Canada. Sunwing thus cannot count as reciprocal pilots, 50 Canadian pilots they send to Europe to fly Canadian registered aircraft Sunwing Wet-Leases to European carriers. These do not count. Can only be counted those Sunwing pilots that go work with European work visas for European carriers under those carriers' Operating Certificate. This is the theory anyway. It seems that no-one at Immigration Canada has been keeping tabs on how many Canadian pilots have been going to work overseas in exchange for the foreign pilots Sunwing has been bringing into Canada.

The second method Sunwing has been using to a lessor extent, but the one Canjet has mostly been using is the LMO. It is my opinion that this method has to be stopped completely. This is where the Canadian Airlines need to convince Human Ressources, and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) that there is a shortage of pilots in Canada, that they have made a reasonable effort to recruit and/or train pilots, and that despite all their best efforts that they unable to recruit or train any Canadian pilots. Once they have satisfied this condition, HRSDC isssues the Canadian Airlines an Labour Market Opinion (LMO), which is a paper authorizing CIC to provide a number of foreign pilot with a Canadian temporary work permit. The problem with this method is that to prove that there are no qualified pilots, these airlines advertise for 737NG type-rated and current pilots only. The 15,000 hour 757 captain need not apply. This logic is wrong for the simple reason that if it becomes acceptable for Sunwing and Canjet to claim that they require a type rating to hire pilots, and use the lack of one to import a foreign pilots instead, what is to prevent all other Canadian Airlines to do the same ? Nothing. Air Transat will require its applicants to be 310 or 330 rated, Air Canada will require 320, 330 Embraer 190, or B-767 or 777 ratiings and Westjet will only hire 737NG type-rated people. There are plenty of all of the above in many countries that pay much less than is paid in Canada and who will gladly leave their countries to come in work in Canada. So do we want to open that door ? There are other arguments. One gentlemen told me he flies water bombers every summer and is laid off every winter and goes on un-employment insurance. He would be happy to have a right seat job in a 737 every winter and go back to his left seat in his water bomber every summer. But he is left on UI and a foreigner is hired instead. There are many other cases like him for Canada has more seasonal pilot jobs in the summer as it does in the winter.

Finally, these airlines have, to a lesser extent been wet-leasing foreign aircraft to augment their fleets. The pilots who come here are licensed in their home countries and are qualified under Annex 1 but do not necessarily meet Canadian standards. Yet, unlike the pilots who come in Canada under the two other schemes mentioned above, the Wet-Lease pilots do not need to be be tested in Canada. This last winter we had a case where 7 Czech Travel Service pilots who came to Canada under a temporary work permit, either failed the Canadian simulator or were so bad in their training that the instructors did not even send them to the test. They were sent home. So what Sunwing did was to Wet-Lease one B-737 from the airline these pilots worked for, and these same pilots came back to Canada at the controls of a Czech-registered Wet-Leased (which aircraft was delivered to Canada brand new from the Boeing factory with its Czech registration). This is the kind of level we may get with Wet-Leases. No Transport Canada oversight on procedures, on the pilots, on the maintenance, on the training, on the spare parts that are used etc etc.... Yet a Canadian tour operator sell tickets on these aircraft to Canadians who have no idea they are flying on a foreign operated aircraft. Oh its written somewhere on the fine print, but the travelling public has no idea......

Back in late 2009, TUI, a large European corporation which controls over 150 aircraft, bought 49% of Sunwing. TUI now provides Sunwing with a large portion of their pilots and aircraft in the winter. TUI's 737s and their pilots are in the low season in the winter. Having Sunwing use them instead of keeping them idle is a win-win situation for Sunwing and TUI, just as it make sense for Sunwing to dump its excess capacity of Pilots and aircraft on TUI in the summer . This must however be done on an equal basis as far as the pilots are concerned. If an airlines such as Sunwing wants to operate just 4 aircraft in the summer and over 20 in the winter, it must find a solution that includes Canadian pilots, not foreigners, except of course those that come to work in Canada under the one to one reciprocal agreement.

[PT6A]

I'm sure the Government of Canada takes a more wider view of the problem (than your very limited view)

If these airlines had to curtail their operations think of the loss in tax revenue and employment of other members of staff (aside from pilot) that would result.

We live in a global world, we don't need 3rd world protectionism from a 1st world country.

[clevlandHD]

PT6,
regardless of where the pilots are coming from, the other staffers would have jobs and pay tax; foreign pilots don't while Canadian pilots would. Why should Canada be the only "first world country" to let all foreign entities in? With no chance for Canadians to fly in Euroland? If it is a two way street it's fine by me, but right now it's a one-way shaft. Canadian passengers don't have more value for money than 5 years ago, the gov gets less tax revenue to pay for services and needs to support unemployed pilots, etc... The winners are TUI and there european pilots.

[PT6A]

Canadian pilots can and do fly in Europe.

As you know some come across to fly in Europe as part of the agreement, the reason they are not more of them is because Sunwing can't spare them.. So the problem is on the Canadian side.

Many of the other EU airlines have or had expat pilots flying for them for various lengths of time.

The ground staff and cabin staff would not be employed without the European pilots, as Sunwing would have to close or scale back its operations.

The idea that you can have a Canadian guy just flying for the season then going back to firefighting is pretty weak.. You need a current and type rated guy who is flying year round.

Sunwing can't keep these guys on the books year round, so we have the pilot swap or pilot loan situation.

[lilflyboy262...2]

There is a point that you made Montrealguy, that I would like to discuss with you.

Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?

It is law, as far as I know, all around the world that you need to hold the correct licence to operate an aircraft that is registered in any foreign state.
If these unemployed Canadian pilots had JAA licence's, then I could understand you being upset with them not being employed on wet leased aircraft. But how else are they going to crew them?
Those aircraft have to go back to Europe. Who is going to fly them when the Canadian pilots go back to their other seasonal jobs?

There are Canadian operators that are working all around the world in foreign states, operating on Canadian registered aircraft. Could you not argue that those companies are taking jobs from local pilots. And with no chance of reciprocity.
I'm not just talking about middle of Africa. I have seen Canadian companies working in Norway.

Also, before you harp on about the standards of flying in Canada, I know for a fact after now obtaining my 5th licence, that the Canadian standards of test are not as high or as difficult as other countries. Should those countries be worried about Canadian pilots flying aircraft in their country?
(And no, I am not saying Canadians are poor pilots, at all. I very much enjoy working with them.)

Also, did mentioned foreign crew aircraft crash?

[clevlandHD]

PT6, guys flying tankers in summer/jets in winter has been done before, what's so special about the 737ng that a 200hr pilot can fly it but not a seasonned aviator?
If there were no foreign pilots, you are right, Sunwing would be smaller but some other outfit would take the slack (or would not have folded in the first place) and employ the other staff (like Sunwing filled the void from Sky Service). It is a zero sum game (all right, say 3% growth per year). Don't forget, the SSV flying did not vanished, it was transfered to a parent company of TUI (Sunwing).
The only winner is TUI.

[PT6A]

The issue is currency, not hours.

It is not sensible to keep switching between two types of aircraft and two types of operations.

There are training costs to be borne in mind, not to mention there will potentially be a chance for confusion on the flight deck, or just generally not upto the same speed as one should be.

The 200 hour guy will be constantly flying the same type.

This is why many regulators do not allow flying of more than one type at a time for public transport operations.

The talk of other companies picking up the slack is nothing more than pie in the sky.. If there was that much slack then TUI would leave aircraft in Canada year round and make money from them.... There is not sufficient demand, this is why aircraft and crew move back and further across the Atlantic.

Again, there are Canadians flying everywhere... Make sure your campaign does not harm your brothers!

[clevlandHD]

Dual types is fine with TC, done by many.
Canadians flying abroad fill in where there are not enough pilots(ME, China, etc) and will be out the day their local replacement is trained (happened before, will happened again). This is a different issue. I am one working abroad and can't get back home because TUI prefers its pilots to Canadians.
As for the training cost, that is the cost of doing business. In Sunwing's case, one ground school and 2 sim sessions would be enough to re qualify the guys every fall. It is actually chearper than 4 sims per year.
And you said that Sunwing "can't spare any", that means they are short, no?
If they would have 100 Euro pilots coming over for the winter and and 100 Canadians going over for the summer, there would be none of this. Why can't they do that?

[PT6A]

It might be legally ok... But mere legal compliance is not enough to ensure system safety. TC is hardly a trend setter when it comes to safety... Just look at the FDTL system and the SMS systems which are two giant failures. (SMS being a good idea, but not the Canadian way where they got rid of all the inspectors)

Sunwing are not short of pilots they are correctly crewed for their operation, they need extra pilots for a period of time - it is not sensible from a buisness point of view to employee these pilots year round.

It is a much better idea to contract the services of the required number of pilots from a sister company.

Remember Sunwing is a buisness a buisness is there to make money. Their duty is to provide the best possible return on investment for their shareholders.

You won't win this fight because it has no real basis, that's why each and every time this argument has been raised before it has resulted in..... Nothing, nada, zero zilch!

[Montrealguy]

There is a point that you made Montrealguy, that I would like to discuss with you.

Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?



I am not certain I understand your question.

Sunwing mostly dry-leases aircraft from Europe. These are re-registered in Canada while they are operated by Sunwing under the Sunwing Certificate. Foreign pilots who come to fly these aircraft need to have their foreign licences validated by Transport Canada and they need temporary work visas from Immigration Canada. The dry leased aircraft are flown by both the temporary foreign crews and by the regular Canadian pilots Sunwing employs full time.

Sunwing also Wet-Leases aircraft from Europe, to a lessor degree. These aircraft maintain their foreign registration while flying for Sunwing. They are flown exclusively by the pilots employed by the airline which leased the aircraft to Sunwing.

In the summer, Sunwing also Wet-Leases some of its aircraft to Europe. These are operated in Europe, under the Canadian Registration and are flown exclusively by Canadian Sunwing pilots. Those pilots do not need European Visas, nor do they need European Licence Vallidations. In addition to those pilots who go fly the Sunwing Wet-Leased aircraft in Europe, Sunwing has sent additional pilots who go fly to Europe for European airlines, under European Operating Certificates. Those pilots need European Work Visas and European Licence Validations.

What I was stating is that under the Immigration reciprocal agreement where x number of foreign pilots are allowed to work in Canada in exchange the same number of Canadian pilots working in Europe, it only concerns those Foreign and Canadian pilots requiring Work Visas and Licence Validations. If Sunwing brings in 50 foreign pilots to work Canadian Registered aircraft with Canadian work visas, it cannot count as reciprocal pilots those Canadian pilots who go work in Europe at the controls of Wet-Leased Sunwing aircraft and who do not require European visas.

Pilots of wet-leased aircraft are one thing, those requiring Visas are another and the two groups cannot be mixed.

If the Wet-leased pilots sent to Europe by Sunwing are to be counted in the reciprocal agreement, then all foreign pilots who come to work for Sunwing under Wet-Leases (like the 767 crews in the summer) should also count.

As far as pilot standards, we know they vary from one country to another. Theoretically, pilots from all ICAO-member countries conform to Annex 1, which is sufficient to be allowed to fly an aircraft wet-leased to a Canadian airline, but we all know that in practice, this is not true. There were recent reports of hundreds of Indian pilots paying bribes to obtain their pilots licences and another news report indicated that and investigation follwing the crash of an Emb-190 in China had revealed that over 200 pilots working with that Chinese airline had falsified their logbooks with bogus hours in order to land their jobs. Same goes for Aircraft certification. I recently heard of an African Registered L-1011 that was doing charters in Iraq a few years ago. It's paperwork indicated it had been modified for operating at a higher gross weight. When Inspected by a colleague of mine who was a very experienced L-1011 mechanic and flight engineer, he quickly noticed that the modification had been done on paper only. The aircraft flew at high gross weight with the engines for the lower gross weight aircraft, totally illegally. The crews were European and this aircraft did charters to and from Europe......
The problem with wet-leasing is that you take the airline you wet-lease at face value and that your Ministry of Transport has no oversight over the foreign carrier.
That seven Czech Travel Service pilots that did not pass the Canadian Simulator PPC should have rung out alarm bells at Transport Canada, especially when Sunwing turned around and Wet-Leased an aircraft from that same company. But it did not. What they did was perfectly legal and Transport Canada had no business overseeing the pilots who were at the controls of the Wet-Leased aircraft, just like they would have no business checking that the High Gross L-1011 had the wrong engines, had that aircraft been wet-leased in Canada. That would have been for the Civil Aviation authorities of the African Nation where it was registered to check.......

[Montrealguy]

You won't win this fight because it has no real basis, that's why each and every time this argument has been raised before it has resulted in..... Nothing, nada, zero zilch!

You just watch........

[PT6A]

If you are suggesting that TC is not inspecting foreign aircraft that operate into Canada... then that is most worrying.

They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.

Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.

[Montrealguy]

it is not sensible from a buisness point of view to employee these pilots year round.


But it is sensible for the Canadian government to pay un-employment insurance to HUNDREDS of waterbomber pilots evey winter ?

There are in Canada 60 CL-214 and CL-415, 2 PBY Cansos, 12 Gruman Turbo Firecats, others with pistons, 2 Martin Mars and 3 Lockheed Electras, about a dozen CV-580s, a couple DC-4s, (close to 100 large aircraft in all), all full time water bombers, most of whose pilots have seasonal summer-only jobs.

From a purely business point of view, does it make sense for Canada to keep all these pilots on UI every winter and hire foreigners who pay no taxes in Canada instead ?

These past years I have flown as captain in Airbus 310 and 330 aircraft with young first officers who had just arrived from a Beech 1900, a Metroliner, or even a King Air and they all did fine.

Are you claiming that a high time guy who was flying captain on a Lockheed Electra, a 4 engine turbine aircraft of 51 tonnes, cannot fly right-seat in a 79 tonne B-737-800 ?

At Air Transat, we used to Dry-Lease B737 and Airbus 320 from Europe for the winter. Every fall, we would draw crews from our B-757s, our A-330s and our L-1011s to put them on the A320 or B-737, and in the spring they would be sent back to their regular aircraft. These pilots went back and forth between two aircraft twice a year. No problems, no incidents......

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/8/7/0213787.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/1/9/1/0544191.jpg

[Montrealguy]

If you are suggesting that TC is not inspecting foreign aircraft that operate into Canada... then that is most worrying.

They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.

Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.

Do not start Trolling please, stay on subject. TC will ask to see a foreign carrier's pilot licence and make sure the pilot is rated and current on paper. It does not check if he is really qualified.

TC will ask to see the foreign carrier's aircraft documentation and make sure it is compliant. It will not check to see if the foreign aircraft has the wrong engines or has been repaired by non-licensed mechanics with bogus parts from China........ Of course if something is obvious like a leak or a bald tire, they can and will intervene.......

But you know all that. That last comment was nothing but trolling to send the thread on a tangent.

Stick to subject at hand please or I will no longer reply........

[lilflyboy262...2]

Talking to the water bomber crews in Sudbury this year, from what I heard the MNR pays them a year long salary?
Or is that just an Ontario thing?

You also didn't answer my previous question.

[PT6A]

I think it is very much on point... There has been an allegation that TC is not performing it's duties as the regulator, that is a very serious allegation to make.

Further, you now go on again to say they are not conducting proper checks.

Are you saying they are issuing TC ATPL's or Validations without checking with the home authority?

When TC gave me my ATPL they did so on the basis of an email from my CAA, you seem to indicate something different is now happening?

[Montrealguy]

Talking to the water bomber crews in Sudbury this year, from what I heard the MNR pays them a year long salary?
Or is that just an Ontario thing?

You also didn't answer my previous question.

Some government employed water-bomber pilots (Province of Ontario, Quebec etc) have annual salaries. It does not mean that they do much flying in the winter. And I think that even the provincial governments flying services keep a combination of full time and seasonal pilots.

As for the question I did not answer, your post contains 5 question marks. Be more specific please, as I stated earlier, I am not certain I understood you.

[Montrealguy]

When TC gave me my ATPL they did so on the basis of an email from my CAA, you seem to indicate something different is now happening?

Yes the same email they would have gotten from the Indian Civil Aviation had you been an Indian pilot and had purchased your licence and ratings in that country, like many Indians did. Checking the licence in your pocket or checking an email from your home Civil Aviation is just checking paper... like that low Gross Weight L-1011 from Africa that had High-Gross Weight papers issued by its home country. On paper it was legal.

A troll : In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

One more and you are on my ignore list.

[PT6A]

So if they get a full time salary..... Then they should not be flying for another operator. As they would not be available to their primary employer (the Canadian tax payer!)

It is not the fault of TUI if the salary of a water bomber is not high enough to prevent them from needing to fly another aircraft.

Why not focus on improving the terms and conditions of the water bomber pilots, then you can attract dedicated pilots who wish to perform that vital role..... Instead of waiting and wanting for a shot at the NG.

We can fix the shortage of pilots within Sunwing at no cost to the airline, this again benefits Canadian buisness and Canada as a whole.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Most of these guys love not working in the winter time. It gives them time to work on other things in their life. Or at least thats what they told me.
It is far removed from being on EI that's for sure!

My original question. As far as I am aware, if you are flying on say, a ZS, VH, ZK (insert other nations regos here), then you must hold that applicable states licence.

If they are bringing in aircraft from other countries, then you must hold that applicable licence to fly that aircraft.
Are you saying that they should be bringing in those aircraft, registering them in Canada, so canadian pilots can fly them, then shipping them back to europe and reregistering them there?
Think about how many months the aircraft would be grounded for each year for this to take place. How on earth would that make economic sense?

Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?
There is no reciprocal agreement here and I believe norwegian pilots are getting the short end of the stick there.
(This is only one example)

[PT6A]

Lilflyboy,

Your spot on... He can't make his point on here with us, let alone against the army of lawyers from TUI.

I'm sure all in all it balances out if you take a wide view of the aviation labor market, not just focus on a single part of a vast industry.

Canada was already taught a lesson by the UAE regarding protectionism, this resulted in very high fees for Canadians to be issued a visa amount other things.

[Montrealguy]

Most of these guys love not working in the winter time. It gives them time to work on other things in their life. Or at least thats what they told me.
It is far removed from being on EI that's for sure!

My quote was about those water-bomber pilots who are on UI in the winter. Obviously the Quebec Government water-bomber pilots who have an annual salary and do nil flying in the winter and spend it at their cottage are quite happy. But many either have non-flying activities in the winter or are on UI.

My original question. As far as I am aware, if you are flying on say, a ZS, VH, ZK (insert other nations regos here), then you must hold that applicable states licence.

Yes or a Validation of your licence by that country's Civil Aviation authorities.

If they are bringing in aircraft from other countries, then you must hold that applicable licence to fly that aircraft.
Are you saying that they should be bringing in those aircraft, registering them in Canada, so canadian pilots can fly them, then shipping them back to europe and reregistering them there?
Think about how many months the aircraft would be grounded for each year for this to take place. How on earth would that make economic sense?

Yet what you describe is exactly what is going on. Last winter Sunwing Dry-Leased about 14 B-737s which were put on the Canadian registry. Only one was Wet-Leased and remained on Czech registry and that one aircraft could only be flown by Czech pilots working for Travel Service. The 20 others (the dry-leased and the Sunwing aircraft) were flown by Canadian pilots and by the contracted foreign pilots whose Foreign licences had been validated by TC. That process of de-registering and re-registering is quite routine and is done twice a year for some aircraft. The aircraft can do a last flight under Canadian registry and be ferried to its home country the next day with its original German or whatever registry. No grounding involved.

Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?

This is a very specialized aircraft. A survey aircraft cost millions to modify and flying it is a specialty. The contract is normally short. It is neither a wet-lease nor a dry-lease to another airline, its plain contract work, not even for an airline. There was a case recently of a Russian registered MI-26 helicopter with Russian pilots working for an oil drilling company in Northern Canada. The MI-26 can sling 20 metric tonnes, something no other helicopter can do. It would haul oil rigs from one remote northern area to another. A bit like your Norwegian example.

Here is that MI-26 pictured in Yellowknife, Canada


http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/4/4/8/1514844.jpg

[Montrealguy]

Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?

For many years, a Canadian company, Skylink has had a contract with the Canadian Military to haul military vehicles and gear to Afghanistan and back. This required a large ramped airlifter larger than a C-130. Skylink Wet-Leased Il-76s and An-124s from Russia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan to perform this contract. This has been going on since 2001. No one ever complained, for no Canadian could do that work.

Flying Canadian registered B-737s is a whole different story. This contracting out flying jobs to foreigners to help TUI save money has got to stop.

[lilflyboy262...2]

I'm not talking about special aircraft charters that are one off, or war time events.
There are Canadian companies offering charter and scheduled services in a lot of African Nations.
The norwegian example I gave was with Cessna Caravan's. There is multiple companies there capable of carrying out that work.

I find it hard to believe that there is no checks involved in the registration process. I know that when they are going back onto a New Zealand rego there is a long process to get them registered. In fact, the A320 that crashed in France a few years back was on its check flight.

Are you sure it was the Canadian Registry and not just on sunwings AOC? From all the operations that I have flown/worked with, this is how they worked it.
Much easier for a pilot to get a validation than change an aircrafts rego...

[Montrealguy]

I find it hard to believe that there is no checks involved in the registration process....
...Are you sure it was the Canadian Registry and not just on sunwings AOC? From all the operations that I have flown/worked with, this is how they worked it.
Much easier for a pilot to get a validation than change an aircrafts rego...

Are you going to make me prove everything I say ?

OK-TVK arrrived in Canada, became C-FGVK for Sunwing this last winter and left for home as OK-TVK for Travel Service.

http://img.planespotters.net/photo/258000/original/C-FGVK-Sunwing-Airlines-Boeing-737-800_PlanespottersNet_258763.jpg
http://img.planespotters.net/photo/264000/original/OK-TVK-Travel-Service-Boeing-737-800_PlanespottersNet_264770.jpg

G-FDZG rrived from the UK, became C-FRZG for Sunwing this last winter or turned back into G-FDZG for Thomson Airways
http://img.planespotters.net/photo/277000/original/C-FRZG-Sunwing-Airlines-Boeing-737-800_PlanespottersNet_277242.jpg
http://img.planespotters.net/photo/186000/original/G-FDZG-Thomson-Airways-Boeing-737-800_PlanespottersNet_186877.jpg

This is how they do it. They are mostly on the Canadian Aircraft Registry while in Canada.

Here is a link to the Canadian aircraft registry. Look them up:

Canadian Civil Aircraft Register - Historical Search (http://wwwapps2.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ccarcs/aspscripts/en/historysearch.asp)


C-FRZG was registered in Canada on Dec 16 2011 and the registration was cancelled on March 21, 2012.

It was on the Canadian registry 3 months and 5 days. And you can also see that this same aircraft had been on the Canadian registry before.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Looking through that list, I only see 10 registered last year, not 14, and only 8 left this year.

The other part that I am failing to see, is how the reciprocal agreement is meant to work if all the winter spots are being filled by Canadian crews?
The European pilots won't have jobs to come here to, so why should they let Canadian pilots fly over there in the winter?
Well its great that the waterbomber crews now get year long work and effectively two salaries, but what about the guys who relied on going overseas?

[Denti]

Canadians flying abroad fill in where there are not enough pilots(ME, China, etc) and will be out the day their local replacement is trained (happened before, will happened again).

Might be true in the ME or China, but is simply not true in Europe where tons of canadian pilots work as well. We have quite a few in my company, they applied, passed the tests (general pass level below 5% of those applying) and then got a permanent contract. Same is true for a lot of other nationalities of course. And the airline is german (no, not Tui). Do we cry unfair about foreign pilots taking our jobs? Certainly not, its life, nothing wrong with that. So, if you want those jobs, get your EASA licence, jump through the hoops and join the fun, it is not difficult.

Anyway, just think a few years ahead. Employing foreign pilots on canadian registered aircraft is outlawed in canada. Does that mean that no european pilots will fly during winter? Far from it, they just will fly on wet leases, with a european license it doesn't matter where the aircraft is registered in europe, the license holder can fly them all (and some outside europe who use EASA/JAR licenses as well). A change of operater course between same typed companies is all of one day without any simulator training needed and therefore companies exchange their pilots in europe and then send them over. Not difficult at all and all according to ICAO regulations. Is there anything won for canadians? Not at all, because any kind of reciprocity would cease with that kind of arrangement anyway.

[Left Coaster]

All sounds good right? Can you tell us if those Canadian pilots you mention have to have the right to work in the EU? Because every ad I've ever seen requires the right to abode in the EU, I'm thinking that the Canadian pilots you refer to have that right...tell me if I'm wrong and I'll stop asking. The wetlease deal you are talking about is still a loophole that keep Canadian pilots from working in their home country and you seem to think it's fine. Canuck jobs should be for Canuck pilots. The old song about those same pilots taking jobs in countries like the ME or China doesn't work...those countries simply don't have the expertise or will to train their own people quickly enough and use the expertise available (no matter how ****ty as you seem to like pointing out) This is an old thread and it's getting boring...

[PT6A]

I'm not sure about Denti's case...

But for properly qualified pilots the airline can get you the work visa in Europe.

By properly qualified I mean type rated with time on type, not a bush pilot.

[Montrealguy]

Might be true in the ME or China, but is simply not true in Europe where tons of canadian pilots work as well. We have quite a few in my company, they applied, passed the tests (general pass level below 5% of those applying) and then got a permanent contract. Same is true for a lot of other nationalities of course. And the airline is german (no, not Tui). Do we cry unfair about foreign pilots taking our jobs? Certainly not, its life, nothing wrong with that. So, if you want those jobs, get your EASA licence, jump through the hoops and join the fun, it is not difficult.


Let's not mix apples and oranges. We are not talking here about Foreigners who come to Canada with a Canadian Residence, obtain a Canadian Licence and get a job in Canada. There are tons of those here in Canada beginning with myself who arrived in Canada as an immigrant in 1990.

What we are talking about is Canadian Airlines, giving out temporary seasonal pilots jobs to Foreigners who are not residents of Canada and who do not have Canadian Pilot licences, who do not pay one cent of taxes in Canada. This is done to save money for certain airlines but at the expense of Canadian pilots, at the expense of Canadian taxpayers, at the expense of most other Canadian airlines that do not do this.

I also have Canadian friends who went to work in Europe. They did like I did when I came to Canada. They obtained legal residence in a EU country, wrote the exams and obtained a JAR licence (now EASA) and found themselves a job. They have since purchased homes in Europe, reside in Europe, pay taxes there, raised their families there. It's not the same thing.

[PT6A]

Have you expressed these views to TUI? Maybe you could enlighten them with your plan, a better way of doing things?

[pcm]

Montreal Guy, do you care about foreign pilots or do you care about something much more personal?

Just to recap. Sunwing enters the charter market, AT laughs. Sunwing excels and expands in the charter market at the expense of AT, AT wants to buy them. Sunwing tells them to get lost. Previously AT signed an agreement with WJ for lift, even though it's expensive but who cares, there's no competition. Sunwing continues to expand and be profitable, AT starts a smear campaign based on pure BS going so far as writing all the tour companies telling them Sunwing is going out of business and not to book with them. Then the lawyers get involved. AT and WJ part ways early and WJ starts up their own vacation company after AT showed them the way. AT contracts CJ who in turn was the first company to use the temporary workers. Sunwing opposed it. At the time Sunwing had 4 European bases with NO foreign pilots working in Canada for the winter. Sunwing, after watching AT do it through CJ starts doing the same. Last fall AT hired to many pilots, their own mistake and laid them off. Who did AT blame? Why of course Sunwing, even though CJ doing business for AT had foreign pilots working for them. Loved the speech by your MEC blaming Sunwing.

Now let's look at the competition. Air Canada is crunching AT from the top, WJ is crunching AT from the side and Sunwing is crunching AT from below. Imagine if someone at CJ grows a brain and starts their own east coast tour operation and leaves AT.

As for foreign pilots in Canada, I think what's going on right now is BS. It should be 100% reciprocal. If you manage to stop what's happening right now, guess what's going to happen, guess what's already happening? We now have more wet leases coming. Perfect (sarcasm) even less Canadians working at Sunwing.

Let's call a spade a spade, what's the real reason for your campaign? Your job?

[Montrealguy]

On October 26 2011, Captain Paul Strachan, President, Air Canada Pilots Association, spoke against the use of Foreign pilots as temporary workers in front of of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. Here is the link:

Transport, Issue 2 - Evidence, October 26, 2011 (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/411/TRCM/02EVC-49122-E.HTM)

On November 30th, 2011, Captain Dan Adamus, President, Canada Board, of the Air Line Pilots Association, also spoke againts the use as Foreign pilots as temporary worker by Canadian Airlines in front of Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. More than 50% of that Union's membership is made up of the 1500 Air Canada Jazz pilots. About 150 ALPA members on whose behalf Capt Adamus was speaking are Canjet Pilots. Here is that link:

Transport, Issue 5 - Evidence, November 30, 2011 (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/411/TRCM/05EVA-49221-E.HTM)

These two Unions alone represent over 6000 Airline pilots in Canada.

We just made a petition to the minister of Immigration which was signed by 2500 pilots, including dozens of Sunwing and Canjet pilots.

Air Transat employs a little over 400 pilots. So come again ? Where do these facts fit into your little theory on my real motivations ?

Perhaps you should try attacking my religion or my patriotism next time.....

You are attempting to spook me with wet leases but I fail to see the difference to Canadian pilots between a wet lease, flown by foreign pilots, and a dry lease, also flown by foreign pilots. It's four quarters against a dollar bill as far as I am concerned. Both are bad, both need to be stopped and both will.

[PT6A]

What are you smoking!?

You really think all of a sudden you are going to stop wet leases?

Even if you do it will result in the same thing (actually worse) more Canadians out of work!

The poster above has a point... what is your axe? Did TUI refuse to give you a job?

[Willie Everlearn]

PT6A

You'd greatly improve your credibility if you stopped posting on a subject you clearly have no intellectual capacity for.

What colour is the sky in your world?

Willie :ok:

[PT6A]

Same as the sky i see in Canada... each and every season I have flown over there!

[aileron]

Greetings from a Canadian/Brit flying for Thomson Airways in the UK (part of the TUI group).
We have pilots flying in Canada during the winter and have done so for atleast ten years. We bring Canadian pilots over in the Summer and have done so for atleast ten years. Opposite capacity issues, businesses working together and Aviation Authorities in the loop.

I have friends who still work in Canada, have met Canadians in the UK (indeed here at Thomson) and throughout the world. I like the happy open minded guys from back home best.


Do you know what I hate most? Arrogant, self absorbed, bitter and moaning pilots.

Lets put things into perspective.........Just got a note from a buddy at AC. Another round of arbitration....this is what he told me........

"as for AC if I could have my old job at ******** back I would leave yesterday. This is a good job but its extremely sterile. Most of the people I work with are nice, but many are extremely arrogant and possess a huge sense of entitlement.........." Not sure what the mood at AT is like but I suggest you let it go, enjoy your flying and enjoy your family more.

PT6A....pcm.....nice to see the other side of the argument for once.:D

[PT6A]

Thanks aileron,

These guys just need to see that an airline is there to make money.. Not as a place for them to enjoy flying aircraft. (that is sometimes a nice side benefit)

Lot's of Canadians fly everywhere, I'm sure they will not be agreeing with this stone age behavior that a few of these disgruntled pilots are displaying on here.

[Elias-8]

Hello all,

This is why I'm having such a hard time deciding where to train. Please read my post and comment.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/487648-train-canada-vs-europe.html

Thanks in advance.

[PT6A]

Where do you have the right to work?

If you have several options... It is best to get a European licence, it is far more simple to convert your EASA licence into a national licence eg. TC, FAA etc than the other way around.

[j_fleish]

All you guys have failed to mention the opportunities that Sunwing offers their current Canadian employees right now with them buying the US Vacation company Vacation Express. This Aircrafts are C-reg aircrafts operating out of the US cities of Atlanta, Cincinatti and Memphis (which just got extended to fly next summer as well till October 2013) giving Canadian pilots a chance to provide the states with pilots and I do say Canadian pilots because this is a summer operation and no foreign workers are flying for Sunwing then. I think with them purchasing vacation express it will give Sunwing the opportunity to buy and train more pilots in the future once Vacation Express expands the cities offering Sunwing flights. Once this Happens I can see Sunwing acquiring more aircrafts to use in Canada for the winter and the States for the summer. But for now until this happens I think its best to just wait it out and not try to put the jobs at jeopardy by forcing the airline to strictly wet lease

[Montrealguy]

Greetings from a Canadian/Brit flying for Thomson Airways in the UK (part of the TUI group).
We have pilots flying in Canada during the winter and have done so for atleast ten years. We bring Canadian pilots over in the Summer and have done so for atleast ten years. Opposite capacity issues, businesses working together and Aviation Authorities in the loop.

Ten years ago Sunwing didn't exist nor did today's version of Canjet. In those days it was Skyservice doing the reciprocal deal that no one in Canada complained about because they played by the rules. 30, 40 or 50 European pilots came to fly for them in the winter and an equal (more or less) number of Canadian pilots went to fly in Europe in the Summer.

That is fine and we were all ok with it.

Last winter, however, Sunwing had 150 Canadian pilots on its payrol and had about 200 foreign pilots on temporary contracts. In the summer, they send about 60 to Europe. Some Sunwing pilots informed us that next winter, Sunwing intended to hire up to 300 foreign pilots on short term contracts. In fact they recently even had a job opening for a full time employee just to manage the foreign pilots' paperwork, visas, training records and licence validations.
Canjet only brings in about 30 foreign pilots but sends none to Europe. Both of these companies have begun abusing the system which is why we want to stop them, or rather, we want them to do it by the rules.

I'm going to quote you the exact Immigration Canada policy copied from their manual:

R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers. Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact.
Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market

Sunwing has been doing this since 2005, so seven years. We have asked in writing to Immigration Canada how many Sunwing pilots have gone to work in Europe since 2005, and do you know what they replied ? :

"We do not have that information".

I have their signed reply right here on my desk on their letterhead.

I recently even heard the rumor that when they count the number of their pilots "working" in Europe, they include those Sunwing pilots who go overseas on Wet-Leases with Sunwing aircraft, when those pilots do not even require a work permit or a Foreign licence validation to do so. These pilots stay at the employ and control of Sunwing. If this was accounting it would be called fraud..........

All we want is for the existing rules to be applied. No more, no less. We are not disgruntled pilots.

I don't really understand the relation between your Air Canada buddy's anecdote and this thread. They have a series of major issues in that company that they are dealing with, which are unique to Air Canada and which are unrelated to the subject of this thread. I work at Air Transat where the vast majority of pilots are happy and have a great time flying. We have great routes which are diverse and seasonal, great layovers and great staff. We do not have the same internal problems as Air Canada.

PT6A, while claiming here to go work in Canada every year, claims in another thread to be an A-320 pilot so I don't really know where he/she fits in this story which these days only concerns B-737NG pilots, but that's another matter......

Cheers...

[Montrealguy]

All you guys have failed to mention the opportunities that Sunwing offers their current Canadian employees right now with them buying the US Vacation company Vacation Express. This Aircrafts are C-reg aircrafts operating out of the US cities of Atlanta, Cincinatti and Memphis (which just got extended to fly next summer as well till October 2013) giving Canadian pilots a chance to provide the states with pilots and I do say Canadian pilots because this is a summer operation and no foreign workers are flying for Sunwing then. I think with them purchasing vacation express it will give Sunwing the opportunity to buy and train more pilots in the future once Vacation Express expands the cities offering Sunwing flights. Once this Happens I can see Sunwing acquiring more aircrafts to use in Canada for the winter and the States for the summer. But for now until this happens I think its best to just wait it out and not try to put the jobs at jeopardy by forcing the airline to strictly wet lease

Yes that is positive, for the time it will last. Expect that to be temporary though. It's a fifth freedom charter. These are never allowed for very long, unless you have an aircraft no other local can provide (like an Antonov 124). It will go on until a US airline opposes it on the basis that it has aircraft that can do the same flights, and then the charterer will be forced to use a US airline (or Sunwing Vacations will buy one).

http://docketsinfo.dot.gov/reports/undocketed/oia/2012-05-04.pdf

On the positive side, I also took note that Sunwing seems to have taken step to hire some temporary pilots next winter without requiring a B-737NG type-rating as a pre-requisite. I also took note that Sunwing was going to upgrade a number of Canadian first officers to Captain position instead of leaving these guys in the right seat year after year, filling the left seat with European Captains every winter as has been the case.

All good things if they are all true and Sunwing keeps moving in that direction......

[Montrealguy]

The issue is currency, not hours.

It is not sensible to keep switching between two types of aircraft and two types of operations.

There are training costs to be borne in mind, not to mention there will potentially be a chance for confusion on the flight deck, or just generally not upto the same speed as one should be.


You wrote the above post I think. In the past 3 years, you have claimed to be on the ATR, on the 320 and on the 737NG, and you go to Canada every year...... but it's ok. I submit argument to express my position and you are free to express yours..... regardless of what and where your really fly.....

[PT6A]

Where have I said I come to Canada every year?

I think you will find I said that each season I have flown in Canada the sky was the same colour (or words to that effect)

Your right I stand by what I said, one type at one time.

You might also find that more than 737NG's have been flown in Canada by overseas airlines.

[aileron]

Montrealguy,
AC, its problems, my buddy's experience of them
and your perception of what is happening at
Sunwing are all related. Theyre related because
youve got an axe to grind and frankly I dont
agree with it or your message. We traded pilots
with Canada3000 when I was at Air2000, way back.
Do you believe the numbers were equal? They
werent there were always more Canadians over
here than Brits over there. Whatever. Over the years Ive heard
it all. People have short and selective memories.
Didnt seem to help C3 did it?

It all evens out.......Kharma.

[Willie Everlearn]

Montrealguy

You're wasting your breath, not to mention your time, debating this issue with some of the European morons posting and spewing crap about business and single type ratings.

Until they get some hours and learn something about the aviation industry they will remain starry-eyed babes in the woods knowing not the difference between employment and wet lease.

Willie :mad:

Aileron

I was once EGCC based Canada 3000. That was a wet lease. No one in the UK employed me seasonally, monthly, or weekly.
Any Canadian carrier using a seasonal wet lease is normal and by the rules. What Sunwing and Canjet are doing is NOT exclusively "wet" lease. Wake up and smell the coffee! Some of us 'colonials' have a modicum of intellect and happen to know the difference between the two arrangements.
The broader issue includes the Canadian aviation industry and its survival. If our less experienced pilots lose opportunity to foreigners based on bad legislation creatively interpreted by many then when does our home industry provide them with opportunity? After the experienced Canadian pilots have all left the country?

When we have a shortage of pilots in Canada, and NEED to hire foreigners, I'll be one of the first to "welcome" you. Try sticking to the topic of this discussion?
Last time I checked most Canadians abroad were there because they were experienced, type rated and working in foreign lands because those foreign lands were short of home grown talent. Again, not the same issue but some keep trying to say it is. It isn't!

P.S. I'm a Canadian pilot, employed in Canada and I can assure you, NOT affiliated with any pilot union nor do I have any axe to grind with anyone. Except this bulls*it practice by a mickey mouse outfit trying to use slack ass federal labour law relating to seasonal migrant workers picking produce to bring foreign pilots into the country rather than hiring Canadian pilots more than qualified and able to fly an NG.
Sorry. That's just not on.

[gumbi]

Very very well put! Thanks Willie.

[Left Coaster]

What Willie said...clearly in touch! Atta boy Willie! :ok:

[PacWest]

Thanks Willie, well done in plain Canadian english even one of the euros may understand and,

Montrealguy kudos for maintaining a well modulated and intelligent discussion against such 'odds'.
`

[aileron]

So Willie while you were based in EGCC are
saying that there wasnt anyone in the UK who
could do the job?

Sunwing will reap what they sow.

Im happy being Canadian but there are as
many 'morons' in Canada as in Europe.

Happy flying.

[Willie Everlearn]

aileron

There isn't a doubt in my mind that at the time we were "wet" leased to Air 2000 there were ready, willing, capable and qualified persons from the UK who could have done the job. Pretty much as it is today. The decision to "wet" lease was made by A2K and their tour operators.

If A2K had employed type rated Canadian crew on their B757s, then helped obtain LVCs and allowed those crews to operate "G" registered aircraft alongside UK citizens....then we'd be having an entirely different discussion. Wouldn't we?

NB
There are no monopolies when it comes to morons nor apparently are there geographic boundaries. I merely associate moronic statements with moronic persons and if their geographic location is obvious then it's not only apparent to me but to many others.

When Canada is faced with a pilot shortage I hope our European colleagues will apply. Until then...Sorry, through no fault of their own, they're persona non grata at present.

Next?

Willie :ok:

[Rhys Perraton]

Why don't you whinging, whining, weenies get back on AvCanada where you belong and leave PPruNe to the real aeroplane people.

[Montrealguy]

Why don't you whinging, whining, weenies get back on AvCanada where you belong and leave PPruNe to the real aeroplane people

Posted on AVCANADA on June 8th 2012: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

AVCANADA • View topic - Canadian North fires boozing Dash 8 pilot (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=81956&p=764307#p764307)

But what is one to expect from someone who does not keep his own word? He posted here back on Aug 18, 2010.

Sharp contrast to the moaning, whining, snivelling bunch of ninnies that inhabit Avcanada. I will never look at it again.

This coming from a Brit, who lives and works in Canada. He thinks Pprune is for Brits only, even the Canada Forum of Pprune. He also thinks that aviation is for Brits only. In fact, he thinks that if you don't speak ENGLISH, you speak some "funny dialect".

The international language of aviation is ENGLISH not French or any other funny dialect.

I happen to speak English and three "funny dialects" for a total of four. I wonder how many dialects Rhys Perraton speaks? He probably brags about not being able to speak any other than his own. Why should he have learn any funny dialects? Anyone who has anything interesting to say, says so in English......

At least he is brave, for that moniker I thought he was using to hide behind for his posts, is in fact, his real name......:D

I'm sorry for this post which is a bit out of character for me. I always do my best to remain civil, polite, respectful and I try to argue the message rather than attack the messenger as others are in the habit of doing here, as can be seen by reading some of the last few posts of this thread. But Mr Perraton didn't even have a point he wanted to make that relates to this thread, other than he does not want Canadians posting here......only "real aeroplane people".

PS: I am on reserve this month and have not been called a single time yet, which is why I have all this time on my hands that I can waste here......

[Willie Everlearn]

Whomever Rhys Perraton is, or thinks he is, it's for sure and certain he has nothing to offer regarding this topic.

Now, once he acquires some flying experience and spends some time flying in a real aviation environment he may have something intelligent to contribute.

Maybe.

Willie Everlearn :ugh:

[UB6IB9]

Some of your posts and positions on this subject are just embarrassing. It's obvious some posters here have never taken an economics course or are just ignorant of economics, finance, marketing and accounting. You people don't realize how simple this actually is. Bitch and moan as much as you want. Foreign pilots will continue to be utilized in Canada whether you like it or not. The CEO is a Chartered Accountant and doesnt care that Johnny 1900 wants to fly a jet. If foreign pilots aren't allowed anymore resulting in increased labour costs, the tour operator will shut down the airline, lay everyone off and go back to wetleasing. The airline needs the tour operator not the other way around. Simple as that.

[Denti]

Hmm, seems nothings been done yet, the application period for next winters canada flying started a couple days ago. Just hope something better comes in, there is talk about flying in australia as well.

[Montrealguy]

If foreign pilots aren't allowed anymore resulting in increased labour costs, the tour operator will shut down the airline, lay everyone off and go back to wetleasing. The airline needs the tour operator not the other way around. Simple as that.

Wetleasing from whom? A foreign airline?
When a Tour operator Wet-Leases a foreign carrier, that is called Fifth Freedom and local airlines can and will oppose it, as Sunwing Vacations has already learned the hard way.....

Denial of the authority to operate series of fifth freedom round-trip charter flights between Canada and various destinations, other than United Kingdom - Excel Airways Limited


https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/54-a-2005

It is possible to some extent but only on route segments between the lessor's country and the lessee's. For example, Sunwing Vacations could Wetlease Thomson to do flights between Canada and the UK, but that Thomson Aircraft would not be allowed to do flights between Canada and France......