Pilot Training College - Florida Ops closure

[Nekro]

Goodbye PTC!

[G1991]

The process from 12 months ago is here:

Life as a Pilot: Application process (http://tinyurl.com/87ar3fe/)

But I believe the process has now changed slightly.

[AlexanderH]

You're not seriously thinking of going to the PTC?

[pudoc]

Elaborate.

[AlexanderH]

Happened to be in Dublin a few years back when they had one of their open days. Decided I'd go along as I had a few hours to kill.

Saw all the eager 16 and 17 year olds with their parents being promised the prospect of a super well paid job at the end of training. I was then sold some spiel about how you'll definitely get a job and shown a map of the world with projected pilot shortages.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it close to €100k for the training and most of it is done in the US?

Anyway, the presentation was pathetic and the sales talk was pretty poor.

[Nekro]

Well, I'm going to be sponsored by a local airline, so they'll cover up the costs for me. nothing concrete yet as I have to pass an ''assessment day/selection process'' by PTC itself and then the airline is going to decide if I get in or not. but basically, what should I expect from this test? it's done by PTC so I guess it's a compass test?

[mad_jock]

ASA Adjudication on The Pilot Training College - Advertising Standards Authority (http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx)

[Fostex]

Well, I'm going to be sponsored by a local airline, so they'll cover up the costs for me

Now I'm curious, who?

[AlexanderH]

Lol, I had never seen that ASA report before.

[Nekro]

Nekro Airlines

[Cows getting bigger]

Here's the deal Mr Nekro. We think you're great. In fact, you're so great, you'll be flying our soon-to-be-unretired Concordes in three years time with captaincy a couple of years later. Now, to ensure that you have the sort of motivation we require, we're going to offer you a sponsorship. It's easy really, all you do is sign "here". Yes, we need your bank account details so we can negative pay you (anyone remember Pan Am's negative profit?) and as long as you pass all your exams, we guarantee we'll give you a job...................................interview.

OK?

Oh, you're a little short of cash? That's no problem, how healthy does your parent's house mortgage look?

[\flippant] Nekro, good luck. You may indeed have a sponsorship but my recollection was that they disappeared sometime during the last millennium. Furthermore, I'm not one who normally points the finger at any particular FTO (I run two myself and there is a certain honour amongst competitors), but I suggest you take a really good look a PTC and your sponsorship deal before committing. There are better pseudo-integrated providers out there (no I'm not touting for business).

[Nekro]

Dear Mr Cows Getting Bigger, I would like to thank you for the sublime offer. why ain't I the luckiest boy in the world! your corporation is what I was looking for, thank you for your hard work. yes indeed I agree on the terms and conditions, my signature?of course. you don't have a pen do you? where do I sign?
My credit card number is 5440 3842 3849 3742. you can take all the money you need without even getting my permission. wonderful, just brilliant sir. I look forward to completing the 3 year course and to fly these Concorde's 30,000ft above ground.

[Cows getting bigger]

The man has humour. Good. :)

[Bealzebub]

...and a vivid imagination! :hmm:

[mark_c]

Nekro make sure practice extremely hard for the PTC assessment. I heard they only take the best of the best. Rumour has it only 1 in 48 people pass! They are extremely picky on who they take the ~100k from. :p

On a serious note, I would do some really good research on this company if you are thinking of even paying for the assessment let alone the ~100K they look for. A quick google search will throw up a few interesting stories.

Best of luck in your training, whichever route you choose.

[Sharkbait727]

ShamilN - You have your facts wrong. PTC owes FIT a lot of money. We were told this by FIT with the IAApresent. The IAA did not deny thatstatement. Today PTC Florida isbankrupt, let go of all its employees, and closed its doors for ever. Most likely PTC Ireland will go down the samepath shortly. The only question is willthe students get back all the money they paid PTC? I doubt it. Will FIT ever get paid? I doubt it. A lot of people were seriously screwed over byPTC. It’s a shame.

[nabanoba]

I would search this forum for threads about PTC before signing up to anything Nekro. Also google them and the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA).

Best of luck!

[PTCstudent123]

heres the statement given by PTC it has had a few additions but some of them are read only and I cant copy the text

First of all, on behalf of PTC, I want to sincerely apologise for the disruption that is being caused to your flight training.
PTC has found it necessary to challenge FIT in relation to their failure to deliver training in accordance with the training contract between PTC and FIT. FIT have failed over a protracted period to deliver training on schedule and in accordance with our contract. We have been actively involved in trying to resolve this issue for several months. We have had no option other than to bring this issue to a head. Unfortunately, the response from FIT has been to terminate all training and issue notice of cancellation of the contract.

PTC is in active negotiations with an alternative provider and we have informed FIT that this is our intention. We are unable to provide any further information at this time as these negotiations are delicate and protracted.

Please bear with us as we work towards bringing about a solution to these difficulties. We will keep everybody informed as the situation develops.

Capt. Mike Edgeworth,





Dear Staff & Students,

Thank you all for your patience and understanding at this time. We are continuing to work towards a solution to these difficulties and will ensure that you are updated as the situation develops. The statement issued here on June 27th will provide you with the current information.

We have confirmed from FIT that all visas are current and there is no immediate plan to change this status. Once further information is available we will update you all.

I appreciate your patience and understanding at this time.

Mike Edgeworth,





Dear Students:

PTC, FIT and the IAA have been in discussion in relation to the training stoppage at PTC Florida. Progress is being made on a solution that will resolve the issues involved and allow training to recommence. The IAA has sent a senior manager to meet with all parties to assess the situation and to explore how the training of all cadets can be completed to the satisfaction of all concerned. All efforts will be made to make this a smooth transition so that all PTC students are minimally impacted. Additional information will be provided at the beginning of next week as this transfer process unfolds. Thank you for your continued patience.

Sincerely,

Dr. Ken Stackpoole


I am waiting on my thread to be approved called PTCSTUDENT which has information people should know about whats happening over in florida. I have been in contact with friends in florida via facebook and I have copied the conversation for everyone to read. From what I have heard its not looking good for ptc as a whole.

[falconflyer83]

Hi everyone,

First of all, before anything else just in case you are too bored to read my post down to the end :

DO NOT GIVE A SINGLE CENT TO PTC

PTC ops in Florida have been terminated due to the failure of PTC to pay their host and training provider in the USA, FIT. They owe them over 1M€.

PTC's CEO, Mike Edgeworth, appears to have financed some of the students' training with new guys' money but the company as a whole has a debt of over 7M€. Anyone not knowing about the Ponzi's pyramidal system, you'll be interested to know that as the last arrived, you will probably never see your money back.

That's one warning for people who are still looking for a way of getting their ATPL(f) and who are actually looking at a way of wasting 100K€ in a black hole, with nothing in return, and certainly not a well paid job.

For those of you who are already there, I would highly recommend to terminate your contract IMMEDIATELY and ask for your money back (knowing that PTC will certainy say "dear student, please go **** yourself"). In such case, all of you guys can add up your efforts, and altogether get a group of lawyers to defend your rights. You won't get a peanut individually, but 200 students against 1 crook can give you a chance...
Whoever has the personnal numbers of people at PTC should call them to say you want to terminate your training immediately, and pass the numbers on to everyone else !

PTC will certainly try to reassure you, but this situation has been lasting for over a year and no student was really informed, or the "info" was more "intox", exactly like it is now : "it's FIT's fault". Yeah yeah whatever : PTC owes FIT 1M€ but it's FIT's fault.

Just LEAVE, and remember : YOU are the ******* customer ! They will certainly say they will ruin your career as well, DON't BELIEVE THEM ! I pissed them off when I was there, they certainly hate me, but I got a job anyway. And what they say is worthless to airlines : nobody wants to hear them anymore.

Good luck everyone, and remember 2 things : "YOU are the customers", and "the more people you are against them, the more power you'll have to get something".

I wish you good luck

[Yahweh]

While I feel alot of sympathy for the students who have been left high and dry over this, I can't say I'm all that suprised to be honest. It's well known now for quite awhile the issues with regard to this group.

Hopefully all the students will get some sort of return on their money. Personally I would :mad: sue the pant's off of them.

[mad_jock]

How many students are in the system?

[mad_jock]

And how many back in Eire?

And have they all payed upfront?

Just seen the sponsored information. Thanks for adding that.

[bnt]

RTÉ News has picked up the story today (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0704/irish-trainee-pilots-stranded-in-florida.html): lots of "it is thought" and "it is believed", so I guess they got it here ...
The IAA has said in a statement it is aware of certain difficulties with the Florida Pilot Training College.
An officer of the IAA is in Florida to brief the students and to explore the possibility of allowing the students to continue their training in Florida or back in Ireland.
"The IAA will endeavour to facilitate the crediting of all flight and ground training carried out so far in Florida towards qualifications," the statement added.

[PURPLE PITOT]

"The IAA will endeavor.........." Nothing like a legal obligation, or reason for being then!:D

[Pilot2/b]

Cant believe anyone would be so stupid to pay 80K upfront! I trained and it was pay as you go :-) can't go wrong!

[Pilot2/b]

Spot on spicejetter!!! I think these guys may live to regret what they have done. I just hope other people take onboard what has just happen with Cabair and now PTC. Don't pay upfront you may lose a few bob...

[Flame]

I am amazed at the amount of folk online here in Pprune who genuinely appear to be delighted that PTC have destroyed the dreams of many and destroyed their bank accounts and most likely, those of their parents too

Do remember, that a lot of those directly affected by this will be reading your comments, and you pushing their noses deeper into the mire helps no one

If so many knew that PTC was so bad, how come so few of you posted warnings with specific information

Rant over ... now, back to feeling sorry for those in trouble

[mad_jock]

We did flame and some of us went to the bother of getting some of there advertising banded in the UK at least.

Sticking comments up on a BB may have the desired effect but it is relatively easy for the person they are aimed at to have them removed by threats of legal action. If the person that posted them doesn't have to balls to call thier bluff away they go.

ASA Adjudication on The Pilot Training College - Advertising Standards Authority (http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx)

That finding is nearly two years old the people in training at the time will have all finished. Anyone who spends the amount of money required needs to have due caution before committing funds.

I do have some sympathy with the on going stream of dreams that have been blown out the window. BTW I think there will be several more schools go the same way over the next year. But there is only so much people can say.

In 2000 when I started looking at training the advice on here was don't pay up front. People still do and still get shafted when companys go bust. There must have been over 1000 pilots lost money to schools going bust since I started flying include PPL schools as well must be over 2000.

Will that fact change people paying up front and not doing there homework?

Nah will it hell.

[rankace]

I'm with you mad jock. There has been pages upon pages written on this website telling people what to expect with PTC and not to even dream of going down their road but yet they keep on writing here that they have an interview with them and looking forward to doing their training with PTC and start their new job with the airline of their choice.:ugh:

[Cows getting bigger]

Yes, but this isn't just a PTC issue, it is industry wide. If people stopped for a moment and removed their rose-tinted spectacles, they would actually understand why the vast majority of companies asks for cash up front. There is one reason, and one reason only - liquidity. Indeed, if one were to take a look at their accounts, it could be argued that many companies are trading in liquidation (OK, legislation indicates that a business is not insolvent as long as it can pay its bills but the reality is that many companies do not have the ability to service all their creditors).

Sure, if someone offers you 5% discount if you buy 10 hr blocks then that isn't a bad risk, especially if your Barclaycard/MasterCard will take the pain (and risk). But the thought of someone paying tens of thousands up-front to a company, or worse a set of partnered companies, is indicative that the 'customer' may have a six pack but they are lacking the plastic bit that holds it all together.

Please, please, please don't allow anyone to convince you that paying up front is good and proper. If you came to our school and offered me the full amount, in cash, for your CPL/ME/IR, I would kindly refuse your offer and give you the contact details of a good psychiatrist.

MJ is spot on.

[bluecode]

The IAA has suspended flight training operations for PTC and that includes their Irish operation: At a meeting today (Wednesday 4th July 2012) with PTCW, and their financial / legal advisers the IAA, (in accordance with JAR, Joint Aviation Requirements Flight Crew Licensing) sought evidence and assurances that sufficient funding is available to continue operations in Waterford, given that the Florida operations have ceased.

Irish Aviation Authority - Statement from the Irish Aviation Authority in relation to Pilot Training College Florida. (http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=1190)

And all their aircraft are for sale

Piper Aircraft for Sale in Ireland - Used Irish Aircraft Sales at GlobalPlaneSearch.com (http://www.globalplanesearch.com/ireland/piper/)


Not much need to read between the lines there.

[AlexanderH]

Just watched RTE news here in Ireland and learned that the IAA have suspended PTC's licence.

[redbull21]

Interesting to note that the 3 PA44 seminoles shown on the link above and the pictures confirm they are PTC aircraft were listed (updated) 37 days ago! late May.

It might suggest PTCW were fully aware that things were about to go downhill rapidly and looking to sell off it's assets!

[Pittslover]

Irish trainee pilots stranded in Florida and facing loss of €80,000 as aviation school ends course - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0704/irish-trainee-pilots-stranded-in-florida.html)

[MidlandDeltic]

Planes up for sale as trainee pilots lose fees | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/planes-up-for-sale-as-trainee-pilots-lose-fees-199722.html)

[Telstar]

It's hard not to feel sorry for some members of the zombie army as they are very young people and part of growing up is making mistakes, what an expensive one to make. I feel less sorry for the parents who failed to find forums such as this one and the reference threads and who broke the cardinal rule of never paying up front!

[Ben435]

I sent PTC an email regarding their latest scheme involving an RAF cadet sponsorship.I received a call on the 26/06/2012 asking if I was interested in taking the skills assessment ASAP. I informed the chap that I was considering all my options and would contact him if I wished to go ahead. I can't believe this was happening around the same time!

I also can't believe nothing is being mentioned on their website or Facebook page!

Thanks
Ben435

[No RYR for me]

The fact that a company who charges Europe prices for a Florida cost base can fail to money is beyond me. Probably blew it all on their European recruitment drive... :ouch:

[seymoreskye]

It doesnt make sense.....When i went to their Assessment day they told me that if i gave them £98,000 in shiny £50 notes then it would mean the world of
airlines would start recruiting!!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Feel sorry for they guys out there! DONT feel sorry for PTC, how embarrassing it must be!

Any news on whats happened to the FLYBE guys, heard they been moved to OAA?

[Telstar]

It's called due diligence spicejetter important when making life altering descisions [sic]

I'm an airline Captain and it's been a very long slog paying off a similar sized debt so far with many years to go. Make no mistake about it they have ruined their lives for the best part of the next two decades, they will be crippled by this debt and it will curb many future options and possibilities. The worst part is that all the warnings were posted here available to read for free.

[vfenext]

Telstar, for an airline Captain you have a rather large tendency to exaggerate! Calm down Captain.

[I'll Be Realistic]

Give it one month, and PTC will be up and running again in Cambridge. A new company with the best standards yet has training so many pilots who are flying for XYZ airlines. (this is sarcasm if you didn't realise)

Statement by the CEO will read "we are totally separate from the PTC in Ireland. We have an agreement with ABC university in Florida to provide the blah blah blah....." (ABC will not be FIT or Flight Saftey, but will be another big outfit) (this is not sarcasm - this will happen)

Watch how many people fall for it. My guess is that the UK CAA will not suspend that approval, so they will go on trading but at a different airport.

Come on people - never fall for this! And never pay upfront! :ugh:

P.s. (I forgot to add): They will get a Flybe contract because flybe keep picking these training providers under the pretence of integrated training, how good it is etc..... (boring) when nobody really offers true integrated anymore. (They all have these variations which are really just modular without the flight tests.). As a result of an airline contract, many people will go there and pay up front.

Definition of stupidity - repeating the same exercise with the same method and expecting a different outcome!

Rant over!

[Climb Under Read]

Not one bit surprised by this saga, but I do feel sorry for the trainees and their families as it looks like some will loose out, albeit as stated many times before, paying upfront is a no no.
I agree with the fact that if you're going to spend this amount of money in one transaction, you must must do your homework to whom provides the service, and even at that, there's always a risk involved.
I'd like to see PTC's breakdown as to how they can justify e85,000k on a fATPL with the majority of training in the US; a rough guess would be about e25-30,000k for the ATPL stage (if undertaken at FIT), including hour building, and the CPL course/skills test. The multi engine instrument rating might eat about e15,000k in Waterford, add in delays, more training, the unexpected, and you might, or should, have a grand total of about e50-55,000k; now here's a simple test, what's 85 minus 55, they should throw that onto the end of their compass test for interests sake!
Seems like Celtic Tiger boom Irish prices are used here, including many other companies that jumped on the band wagon, it's time to wake up folks...

I do believe, what goes around comes around, and let this be a clear and unambiguous lesson for anyone considering training with PTC in the future, do your homework and check companies like this one out before departing with hard earned, or even worse, borrowed cash.

Remember, as I read before on here, some FTO's will sell you the dream through their angelic marketing dept, be cautious with this plug.

I do hope that the trainees get some resolve and that there is minimal financial loss to them and their families.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Thats exactly what will happen IBR! Shades of the Cabair fiasco but with a different base. I wonder whether the students will be asked to pay an additional £15K to continue!!!!!!! I am led to believe there is another school in the North West that has liquidity problems. No names no pack drill.

[Captain Planet]

Engineering staff in Waterford base have been made redundant, I think this may be the end.

[Jonny4988]

Went for an assessment day earlier on this year..Wasn't very impressed at all if I'm honest. After the assessment I was told I would hear within 3 days when my results had been ratified...didn't hear anything. Phoned them 4 times and on each occasion, i was told that I needed to speak to a certain guy, (who was never at his desk)and that he would call me back, which he didn't. Eventually got an email saying that my results were correct and i had scored high enough on the COMPASS test to be put forward to Flybe. What they failed to mention before the assessment was that i was going to have to fork out 650 euros for a medical (plus travelling expenses, so probably nearer the 1000 mark) just for them to forward my file on to Flybe and that didn't necessarily mean I'd get an interview.


Did a bit of research on the company and found that they had a few problems in the past, and a number of people certainly didn't recommend them.

They also sent me an enrolement form and on it was

"In the event of termination of training, for whatever reason, the balance of all outstanding training fees for the whole course shall become due and owing."

After reading the views of a large number of people I had already decided it was a no go, but that condition on the enrolement form was the icing on the cake. How can they charge for training you wont do and won't get the chance to do!?

I'm pleased that it worked out the way it did for me (apart from the fact i wasted money on the assessment day) for obvious reasons, but I sincerely hope those students who are unfortunate enough to be under these circumstances, find some light at the end of the tunnel and go on to become successful pilots

[AlexanderH]

Does anyone remember this article?

Big Middle East win for Pilot Training College - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0120/ptc-business.html)

[MUFC_fan]

Great piece posted from the link on the first page about the troubles from a student point of view.

Life as a Pilot: Pilot Training College comes to an end (http://tinyurl.com/cd67vh8)

[rankace]

Just heard on the Irish News here that PTC received over half a million euros in Government funding over the previous 2-3 years so where has all the money gone?? They wont like that!!

[mad_jock]

Thats not alot to be honest. Almost not enough to be even bothered to try and find out where its gone.

[Telstar]

Telstar, for an airline Captain you have a rather large tendency to exaggerate! Calm down Captain.

If you don't think that being €85K plus interest in the red and you haven't even had an intro flight is not a life altering setback then you are either a hopelessly naive member of the zombie army or you are so young that you have yet to learn the value of money.

If some of those students push on and continue the training elsewhere and then go on to pay for a type rating with an airline, they will have close to a quarter of a million euro worth of debt by the time the juice is factored in. That's a mortgage, a lifes work to pay off for most people. Unless you know something I don't?

[PURPLE PITOT]

Telstar, he does know something you don't. He knows that there is a massive pilot shortage just around the corner!:ok:

[Cows getting bigger]

Thats not alot to be honest. Almost not enough to be even bothered to try and find out where its gone.

Have you seen the state of the Irish economy? :)

[rankace]

Half a million not worth talking about but 85,000 is?? :ugh:
looks like the students are buying the PTC story

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120706/NEWS01/307060032/FIT-kills-contract-Irish-flight-school

[conax]

Hi everyone,
This is just a terrible thing that has happened to these young people trying to become pilots and my sincere thoughts are with you.

All that i can say on this matter is that if someone owed me 100.000 euro or drachma, that owned 20 houses in carriganard in waterford which was paid for by students renting them from the "owner" .

Also the houses in dunmore east that are bought and paid for, and also the other properties around the country that are Paid for,

I would certainly go after him in the courts to secure a judgement against the person who owed me the money.
And to go on top of that the government should get a high court order on property so the students could get something back.......

I would also like to see the IAA take a good look at a certain persons logbook especially back to the point that it was rewritten and check for errors or should i say omissions, :ok:

[AlexanderH]

Conax,

I'm sure you are trying to make a relevant point, however, your use of the English language in your last post is atrocious. Can you please rewrite so we can try to understand what you're getting at?

No offence intended.

[power.r]

Latest update from RTE

Pilot Training College apologises to trainees for distress caused - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0706/enterprise-irelands-investment-in-pilot-centre.html).

[mad_jock]

Alaxander he looks to be having a dig at a person who has used students at the school to fund a property captal investment program. This property will not be at risk whatever happens to the school. Its quite common to be honest.

He is also implying that someone has been forging a log book.

[wire12]

Does anybody have an update on the students getting their money back. Are the IAA getting them training somewere else. I assume PTC are finished now.

[redbull21]

The Irish pilot-training firm at the centre of a financial row that has left trainee pilots stranded in Florida said this evening it was continuing to do everything it could to source alternative training courses for its students.

Some 80 students, 34 of them Irish, paid up to €86,000 to train with the Pilot Training College (PTC), a Waterford-based flight school.

They had been receiving training in the Florida Institute of Technology (FIT), which had a contract with the Waterford school, but, due to a financial dispute, the Florida centre has stopped their training.

In a statement this evening, PTC said of the 180 students in Florida, 70 already had their training taken care of by their respective airlines.

“In relation to the remaining 110 students PTC has been in dialogue with CAE Oxford Aviation Academy over the past several days in an effort to formulate an alternative training facility for most PTC students in light of the cancellation of the training contract between PTC and the FIT,” it said.

“A detailed analysis of all student training records has been undertaken by both PTC and CAE Oxford Aviation Academy and a formula has been arrived at on a student by student basis.”

PTC said the first group of 39 students had been informed of the details of this plan and that "they would not be financially impacted by the difficulties in PTC Florida due to a credit being offered by CAE on the initial deposit amount that the students have already paid."

“The remaining 71 students have been categorised in groups depending on their stage of training and performance to date. Before the end of this week, PTC will let students know individually whether CAE Oxford Aviation Academy intends to make them an offer to continue their training. The students who receive such an offer and who intend to avail themselves of it will be invited to contact CAE Oxford Aviation Academy directly and to enter into a new training contract. This process will take a few more days to run its course,” the statement continued.

PTC said it had furnished the Irish Aviation Authority with all documentation required to confirm all training records are in order.

It added that while CAE will offer a “moderate discount” to offset part of the amount already paid for the course, “PTC recognises and deeply regrets that a number of students will incur additional costs in having their training completed as a result of the ongoing dispute between FIT and PTC”

The firm said it was doing everything possible to “mitigate any losses”

Earlier, Fianna Fáil’s transport spokesman said the Government has a “moral obligation” to ensure the Irish trainee pilots stranded in Florida can complete their training at another flight school.

Timmy Dooley said students were “still stranded in the US unsure of what to do next, having paid thousands of euro for their training”.

“These students have been put under enormous financial stress and strain over the past three weeks and they are still in the dark about what happened to the training course they paid for in the first place and what options there are for them now.”

He said the issue raised “serious questions” for the Government and the Irish Aviation Authority and it was clear that some bonding or insurance situation was needed for this type of situation.

“This is the type of issue that arises from time to time where swift Government action is necessary. Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar must clearly set out what exactly the Government is prepared to do to ensure the welfare of the students in Florida is taken care of and, if necessary, the Government should be prepared to put in place the funds needed to allow the students complete their training and reach their final qualification.”

Mr Dooley said he had raised the issue in the Dáil last Thursday and had sought clarification from the Government on a number of issues but had yet to receive a response.

Fine Gael TD for Donegal North East, Joe McHugh, said the Pilot Training College in Waterford had accepted “substantial five-figure fees” from a Donegal student pilot studying at its partner college in Florida as recently as June 14th.

“Three weeks from that date the student was informed that training was to be suspended indefinitely,” he said.

“The Pilot Training College must disclose if it was aware on June 14th that the training programme was in jeopardy. Irish student pilots have now been told that they must pay figures averaging €48,000 for four training programmes in order to continue their training with another college, despite having already paid the Pilot Training College for these courses.”

He said the student pilots deserved strong support from the Department of Transport and the Irish Aviation Authority that would take into consideration their ability to pay for fees at alternative colleges, and the costs that had arisen from their stranding in Florida.

It must also be established “very quickly” if the college would be in a position next spring to complete planned training programmes for the students upon their return to Ireland.

Mr Varadkar said it would be “a very big change in policy and a very expensive change in policy” if the Government were to pick up the bill for the trainees.

Speaking on RTÉ radio, he said the Government was doing what it could for them “within our obligations and within what we can afford”.

[falconflyer83]

“PTC recognises and deeply regrets that a number of students will incur additional costs in having their training completed as a result of the ongoing dispute between FIT and PTC”

Those people are the worst liars ever seen : first they say THEY terminated the contract with FIT because FIT didn't meet their standards and didn't manage to train enough students per month ; then they recognize it's over a financial dispute that they got KICKED OUT of here.

The worst part is they say the WHOLE SCHOOL shuts its doors permanently due to a financial dispute with their partner in Florida. Hmmm couldn't they just find another one ? Just because your partner doesn't want you in their place doesn't mean you can't find a solution...

It's obvious that the heads of the company just put the whole money coming in in a bank account or real estate somewhere where the skies are blue and the sea transparent, and that the termination of the contract with FIT was the trigger to launch the final phase of the plan : shutting every door and leaving everyone with a wallet as full as Mike Edgeworth's sense of honnor.

They say they're trying to find ways of completing their students' training, but what is basically said there is "oh, look another school that might accept you if you pay another 40K€". Pathetic.

[rmcb]

He said the issue raised “serious questions” for the Government and the Irish Aviation Authority and it was clear that some bonding or insurance situation was needed for this type of situation.

“This is the type of issue that arises from time to time where swift Government action is necessary. Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar must clearly set out what exactly the Government is prepared to do to ensure the welfare of the students in Florida is taken care of and, if necessary, the Government should be prepared to put in place the funds needed to allow the students complete their training and reach their final qualification.”



Hmmm... I wonder how the UK CAA would react to this one?

[Cows getting bigger]

Probably increase the scheme of charges, giving the UK government more income to pay to the EU more cash in order that the Irish government could be bailed-out, again, as they hadn't completed enough due diligence and regulatory oversight in the first place.

I'm so proud to be a Bog Hopper. :sad:

[Private_flyer]

Whats the betting that it sorts out the Irish students only, with any from the UK way behind !

As an Irish modular student that did research and avoided even so much as eye contact with PTC I will be advocating that neither Irish nor UK students receive any funding from our exchequer. There are far more worthy cases in our very unequal society that would benefit 1000x more...

Moral of the story: Do some :mad: research and actually take in what you're actually :mad: hearing and seeing! A read of the contract should have been enough to put you off.

[Dc.muckross5]

Trainee pilots offered cost of flight home · TheJournal.ie (http://www.thejournal.ie/trainee-pilots-offered-cost-of-flight-home-516187-Jul2012/)

IAA paying for flights home.:= I don't think residents of Priory Hall got so much.

[No RYR for me]

Yeah priory hall get nothing yet rich kids get jetted home free. Let's face it thebcostnof a flight home is lessor probably less than a CPL licence issue fee or a 170A. Surely the parents could have flown their children home? I hope the flew coach! What a pathetic response! There is a large group of guys who see their dreams torn apart. And eventhough you might disagree with whom they trained for what ever reason they have lost either their savings, have a huge loan or feel the financial impact big time. The rich kids thing is generally way of the mark, I have seen people from all walks of life scrapping these amounts together and to sh!t on them like you do says more about you than about them! :ugh:

Disagree as much as you like but feel sorry for the individual :mad:

[nabanoba]

I feel sorry for the individuals. But there is no way the government should be helping them with tax payers money.

They made a bad investment due to lack of due diligence on their part. You make a bad investment you should carry the can. If they had looked into PTC's record, their relationship with the ASA or even took a cursory look on here they would now be in a much better position.

What's even worse these candidates decided to pay the majority of the course up front. They have my sympathy but I don't believe at a time when there are genuinely needy people in Ireland that these cadets deserve to be bailed out.

[AlexDeltaCharlie]

They made a bad investment due to lack of due diligence on their part. You make a bad investment you should carry the can. If they had looked into PTC's record, their relationship with the ASA or even took a cursory look on here they would now be in a much better position.

I agree in principle, but on the other hand I think that a prospective student completely new to aviation could be forgiven for thinking some of these companies aren't as shoddy as they really are. The integrated brochures, websites etc. are all slick, well put together, and not entirely dissimilar to what you might expect from a top university.

Nobody warns A-level students to investigate their first choice universities to make sure there are no rumours of them going bust, nor is there any danger of it happening. If the first experience of aviation for a wannabe pilot and their parents is the open day of an organisation like Cabair or PTC, then I don't think they'll have any reason to feel suspicious. Lots of big, neatly furnished buildings, people in smart suits and more than likely at least one video involving someone in a pilot uniform walking across an apron in slow motion.

The impression of a big company, shiny expensive equipment and let's not forget that Boeing report/prophecy of enormous forecast pilot requirements. I know that my family and I were sold on the whole thing and didn't once feel any reason to question the financial affairs of the FTO. I could see why a member of the public wouldn't hand £80,000 over to the local flying club, but these integrated schools do a damn good job of making themselves look too professional and large to disappear overnight when you've no previous experience of the aviation industry. Suppose the applicant does do some research and reads bout the school on PPRuNe, who's going to trust anonymous forum contributions against the word of the real people they met at the open day? I suspect people didn't research PTC further because they felt they had all the information they needed from the open days and their website.

The real blame I suppose is the lack of transparency about these companies and the fact that aviation is just so insular. You can read on here about the mad and bad things happening in aviation- pilots paying to work, people losing thousands to dodgy schools, etc and yet how often does this stuff make an appearance in the mainstream media? The general public don't hear much at all from aviation apart from big airline profit announcements, whilst every time a banker sneezes we're all calling for resignations and payouts. I personally can't blame the wannabe who wakes up one day and decides to be a pilot for having the public perception that aviation is booming and all pilots everywhere are loaded, and thus flying schools are a safe bet as well.

My sympathies go out to those students who might be reading this having been failed by PTC, as someone who very nearly ended up taking the same risk. I can't accuse anyone of a lack of 'due diligence' when the schools are so good at making their target market think that diligence is not due in the first place.

ADC

[Fitter2]

Furthermore, it wasn't just the students that had apparently 'failed' to carry out due diligence - Flybe and Gulf Aviation had also enrolled students with PTC.

[mad_jock]

None of this sticking the knife in is going to help matters.

Everyone would be better putting there energy into applying pressure for a regulation change that would protect the future students investment.

Ie either a bond stumped up by the training organisation or a method of secure accounting which meant that funds could only be accessed at the point of training being given.

But then again I would suspect that would kill off a fair few schools as soon as it came in.

[BillieBob]

But then again I would suspect that would kill off a fair few schools as soon as it came in.You say that like it's a bad thing!

[mad_jock]

Well in one sense it is a bad thing because in the short term we will have monumental amounts of pilots under training loosing money along with hundreds of instructors being unemployed and also loosing wages.

Long term it would be a good thing.

I wouldn't say PPL schools should all have to do it. It would be size related and linked to the amount of money the students were required to deposite. IE if a school only got you to pay as you go there would be no need for them to either submit a bond or have esquire accounts or what ever they are called.

[mad_jock]

You would hope that market forces would make that happen.

But there are sufficent people who are will to pay for the training with little chance of getting a job.

Its in the airline industrys interest to have the current oversupply to allow them to react quickly to growth and keep thier own training costs down.

In the perfect world all commercial pilots would be trained in house by an airline.

[Cows getting bigger]

At our school we will only accept £1000 up front for SEP type work and £2000 for ME (limiting to £1000 is a bit tight when you could blow that amount in a day). We simply do not let people pay huge amounts up front. Funnily enough, it doesn't appear to adversely affect our business.

Frankly, bonds, escrew etc is still not the long-term solution. PAYG (or thereabouts) is the only sensible way to do business.

[Alex Whittingham]

PTC's website is down today. Are they officially in liquidation?

[jigger01]

Judging by this excerpt from 'Waterford Today' I don't think much info will be forthcoming from PTC,either to failed students or Govn't Depts. (or indeed the irish taxpayer) Was a time you couldn't log onto an aviation based website without an advert for this company appearing,now awkward questions are being asked by various concerned parties their PR/Marketing machine has come to a grinding halt.Funny that really.

[URL="http://www.waterford-today.ie/waterford-today-news/17209-waterford-pilot-school-labour-query-17209.html"] Waterford Pilot School - Labour Query Wednesday, 11th July 2012 Labour deputies query 'drip drip'information about Waterford Pilot School

Concern about the 'drip-drip' way informationemerging from the suspended Waterford-based Pilot Training College (PTC) was expressed in a joint statement by Kilkenny and Waterford Labour Party TD's AnnPhelan and Ciara Conway.

[ShamilN]

Looks like the cPanel website has been removed.

[timeforclarity]

It's really sad to see this happening to PTC and I feel for all those involved. I went through the same thing with Cabair last year.

The one bit of advice I can offer is to make sure before staff leave, doors shut for good is that you have a copy of your training records. Exam certificates, a completed and signed logbook, the head of training can usually help you with this.

You can take this to a school of your choosing to continue. You don't need to anywhere you don't want, even if PTC are arranging transfer there. Visit schools, make an informed choice.. and the school you choose to continue with has the ability to transfer your training over in conjunction with the IAA/CAA.

[pilotbear]

Firstly,
I do believe that way back in 2003/4 when PTC was born and yes I was there, that Mike Edgeworth had the belief, vision and intention to create the best Pilot Training Facility in Ireland and hopefully the world. Instead of teaching from the garden shed at the corner of the airfield as was the norm in ireland then.
This would have happened had he let the people, (some of whom were very talented) do the job he paid them for and not personally micro managed everything to the point of destruction. Ego and money then took over with the usual predictable result.:(

Right now it is a sad state of affairs for all the students, families and honest staff members who all worked hard to help make the promised dreams come true. At one time PTC were the best, for a few months in 2009 under the wisdom and leadership of Nick Clarke and Ciaran Doyle the team cared about the students and the training they received. Everyone involved worked hard to develop safe and professional pilots whilst still providing an unforgettable once in a lifetime experience. Any student from that time will confirm this.
….

What happened? Edgeworthless happened and again snatched defeat from the jaws of victory....

chapter 2 to follow:E

[redbull21]

Pilots in cancelled course to stage Dáil protest - The Irish Times - Mon, Jul 16, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0716/1224320204156.html)

[jigger01]

The new Pilots Terminated Course of Ireland's CEO,a Mr Bob Diamond
has moved quickly to quash rumours he was re-branding the
battered companies image with that of a phoenix as its central logo.
Opting instead for an Ostrich as quote "this story will run & run"
and it more adequately reflected the "companies core values"
An Ostrich is of course an Oversize,flightless bird which is prone
to sticking its head in the sand in times of trouble.




If only losing £80k upwards were a laughing matter.

[BigGrecian]

I am sure that anyone moving to another training provider will have their bull***t Detector set to maximum sensitivity and turn on to a reciprocal heading if they hear this guff again.

Some of them have gone to Naples Air Center so they clearly haven't learnt anything.

[Pjlot]

I don't see the point in staging a protest in front of Dail Eireann. This is not the responsibility of the Irish Tax payer or the government of Ireland. This is down to a company who badly and incompetently managed their finances in my opinion.

I attended P.T.C. over 3 years ago for the suitability test, to say what unfolded over the day was unprofessional was an understatement. For me that day said enough about the outfit. First impressions last!

I have sympathy for these guys, it is completely unfair that they are at such a financial loss. But I think they should focus their frustration and energy elsewhere. There are serious questions to answer as to whether a company knowingly took money and continued to trade while insolvent.

[frogone]

Pjlot they are protesting about where the regualtor was in all this? Yes that's the IAA in their fancy 'Irish Times' building. They had plenty of trips over to Florida business class etc to 'audit' the operation, so what were their results? :ugh:

[rmcb]

They had plenty of trips over to Florida business class etc to 'audit' the operation, so what were their results?

Probaby the same as the results from the UK CAA dolts who travelled to Cabair HQ and said they were a good bet.

Everyone these days is 95% accountable. It's that last 5% that prevents accountability.

[2close]

Everyone these days is 95% accountable. It's that last 5% that prevents accountability.

The good old ICAO containment limit.

Your BRNAV equipment must be within 5NM of accuracy on 95% of occasions (PRNAV 1NM).

What about the other 5%?


For lack of accountability in recent times, as well as Cabair, don't forget Bristol Aviation - the directors of Bristol Flying Centre, which also owned Bristol Aviation, were pretty quick to adopt slopey shoulders, whilst making sure their own personal wealth was untouched.

The authorities need to be more accountable to the end user - they are quick enough to take the money when times are good.

:mad:

[bluecode]

Well they had their protest today. Much good it will do them. Their naivety is very evident. They seem convinced they Irish taxpayer is going to foot the bill for their mistake and PTCs negligence. I can absolutely assure you that will not happen.

Apart from anything else the money isn't there and if it was it would be better spent on something useful like hospitals and schools.

In any case they need to realise that the jobs are not there for them even if they finish. Another reason the goverment isn't going to throw good money after bad.

Their attitude is also poor and abusive to someone gently pointing out the truth to them. This is duly noted and when one of this individuals comes knocking, looking for a job. They will find out just how small the aviation community is within Ireland.

Meanwhile today PTC went into examinership which presumably means they intend to resurect the company. What optimists? As if anyone will ever touch them again with a thousand foot bargepole.

[jigger01]

Here is a piece extracted from the website of local Waterford radio station WLR FM.


The High Court has appointed an Examiner to the Waterford based Pilot Training College

It follows its well publicised dispute with the Florida Institute of Technology which PTC says has left it with a major financial deficit. An Independent Accountant told the court that PTC has a reasonable prospect of survival if its restructured.A number of parties have also indicated an interest in investing in a restructured enterprise and the Interim Examiner , Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, will now engage with those parties and the Irish Aviation Authority in a bid to restore the company's licence.

[Irelander]

As if anyone will ever touch them again with a thousand foot bargepole.

PTC's self appointed 'Captain’ was always a great one to polish the smelliest turd to a high gloss finish.
A quick wipe over with 'Brasso Neck' will have the scam up and running again.
Never dismiss the propensity of drunks and babies to snatch at the shiniest bauble.

[clarityinthemurk]

posted by bluecode

Their attitude is also poor and abusive to someone gently pointing out the truth to them. This is duly noted and when one of this individuals comes knocking, looking for a job. They will find out just how small the aviation community is within Ireland.

Indeed, small in every sense of the word, as your veiled threat has amply proven.

[pilotbear]

The dream morphed from training pilots to a dream sold to young pilots with false claims, misleading advertising, slick marketing by clowns wearing four bars (a telecoms saleswoman, a failed CPL pilot and a bathroom salesman who looked like a hairdresser all lead by a self-styled captain (he only holds a JAA CPL with less than 500 hours right seat ‘jet time’) with the sole intention of making pure profits. All paths greased by complicit regulatory authorities and the US higher level management who wanted part of the Hollywood style big success movie.

Edgeworthless, for a period of time let his Florida team do what they did best which was train pilots. Unfortunately, his ego couldn’t take it as it was going too well without him so he returned and as happened several times over the years snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Any PTC staff with talent and morals were underhandedly forced out for cheaper, incompetent, inexperienced morons whose brief was to take as much from the students as possible by any means. This included flouting Quality, Standards and Safety with several breaches of rules and regulations. If you complained, you were transferred to the EXIT slide and the door to your office became the door to the carpark.

Several high flying executives were drafted in from other places to sit on the board, again to give the impression of a sound organisation but after a few months dealing with Edgeworthless’s ego they all walked or ran away, usually laughing.

A management team that grew the company 400% in two years were told they were incompetent and that 'one man and his dog' knew better.:ugh:

Ask how many Chief Flight Instructors PTC have lost? PTC couldn’t maintain training continuity with such a high turnover of disrespected and disgruntled training staff. No-one with any ability wanted to work for them.....:D

[bluecode]

Indeed, small in every sense of the word, as your veiled threat has amply proven. Not so veiled. There is a basic test when someone walks onto the airfield. Most fail. Rare enough the fail before they even get to the airfield.

It's attitude.

[No RYR for me]

An Independent Accountant told the court that PTC has a reasonable prospect of survival if its restructured. The same accountant that did the Cabair restructering? They will have a hard time as I think it is not likely that the airline customers will stay :ouch:

[jigger01]

Apologies to those of you already in the know,but here is a definition of what examinership actually means.Interesting to see how the part about not unfairly prejudicial to any creditor(s) '..Pans out



Examinership is a process in Irish law whereby the protection of the Court is obtained to assist the survival of a company. It allows a company to restructure with the approval of the High Court

In order to obtain the appointment of an examiner it is necessary to petition the High Court and persuade the court that there is a reasonable prospect of survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking if an examiner is appointed.

The examiner has a fixed period of 70 days (extensible to 100 days) inwhich to prepare a scheme of arrangement, which must be approved by at least one class of creditors of the company. If it can be shown that the scheme provides for the survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking and that it is not unfairly prejudicial to any creditor(s) of the company the cour thas discretion to approve the scheme.

In most schemes of arrangement an investor will invest in the company and part of the money invested will be used to pay a dividend to each class of creditors

[clarityinthemurk]

Not so veiled. There is a basic test when someone walks onto the airfield. Most fail. Rare enough the fail before they even get to the airfield.

Ah yes, the submissive deference needed to bolster the inflated egos of self declared greatness.

[bluecode]

Ah yes, the submissive deference needed to bolster the inflated egos of self declared greatness. You haven't a clue mate. Quite the opposite is needed. What you want is a pilot who has the right combination of self assurance and confidence. Who fits in but able to stand up for himself or herself. Who can fly well and be a pilot in command and stand up to the boss and doesn't think the world owes him a favour.

The last thing you need is submissive deference. Not many pilots could be accused of that. So less of the ad hominen please.

[timeforclarity]

The dream morphed from training pilots to a dream sold to young pilots with false claims, misleading advertising, slick marketing by clowns wearing four bars (a telecoms saleswoman, a failed CPL pilot and a bathroom salesman who looked like a hairdresser all lead by a self-styled captain (he only holds a JAA CPL with less than 500 hours right seat ‘jet time’) with the sole intention of making pure profits.

Do you remember the names of any of them?

[pilotbear]

What is it with all this diversive attacking the of the students? are we trying to divert attention away from the real issue?
As usual on pprune there is always some smart ass who uses hindsight to tell people what, when and how they would have done it better:D
Why not kick people when they are down?...smart move. I guess the bankers that cost the world its economy were victims too...

The only issue is...
the students money is missing!!

The latest article in the Independant is lies, lies and more lies. An Aer Lingus contract that was lost?? There was never a contract with Aer Lingus, a request for Tender which went to several schools for which they were objectively turned down.

It says something if the National Carrier isn't interested in supporting the biggest national school....:ugh:

If the airlines were so happy with PTC why did they all ask for independent confidential reports from several ex-PTC employees as to the conduct of the upper management.

It is now reported that the company is almost 10 million euros in debt, how is that possible when the money has come in and they haven't paid any bills.
WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? GET IT?

[pilotbear]

Do you remember the names of any of them?

Yes TFC, I know everything about this company and more:ok:

[falconflyer83]

I think we all agree on one thing : it was a stupid idea to pay the whole course upfront. But I'm sure the telecoms saleswoman did her job very well and made it look like the brightest idea for a highway to an A320 right seat. Don't forget they got a 400'000€ subvention from the government, and I don't think they would have got it without working hard to make the company LOOK good.

The guys think that because PTC obtained the approval from the IAA means the IAA is responsible for their loss, which can be true. But think about it : students lost 80Ks each, but the IAA lost 400K€ ! They have a chance to fight along with the IAA against the one who is really responsible for what happened, but they choose to argue with their ally ! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

With regards to how PTC lost so much money, I can't believe a flight school that has so many students can ever lose a single cent. They never allow you to "spend" money that they don't have on your student account, which means they don't spend money they don't have (knowing they weren't paying their bills, they didn't spend money at all).
On top of this, as you pay for a "0 to frozen ATPL" package, all the costs are "rounded up" with extraordinary margins.
As an example :the students are sent to FL for the weather (which is **** the whole summer) AND for the lower costs of flight time in the US. HOWEVER, a Piper Seminole costs 330USD/h if rented to FIT. PTC had us paying around 500 EUROS per hour. 25 hours of Seminole in the US per student, 200 students in, I'll let you do the maths. The same thing applies to accomodations and other planes. If they're not making billions of profit, no one else does and even Ryanair is bankrupt.

Now, if you look at it, you will find out that the CEO HHTGCFL (His Highness The Greatest Captain For Life) Mike Edgeworth, who has flown as much as 400~500 hours in a Hawker jet (don't hide it, I know you're impressed) created several different ghost companies doing NOTHING, some of them based in a nice condo 1437 Pineapple avenue, Melbourne, FL, and that he seems to have invested in real estate in Florida. If you don't see the link, don't even go to a class 1 medical examination, you're blind.

To sum this up :

PTC owes money to :

- FIT for 1M€
- the IAA for 400K€
- the students for an unknown amount of money

The money has "disappeared" and the company has 10M€ in debt, but the CEO has plenty of money.

There must be a black hole somewhere, absorbing any euro or dollar floating around. And if that's the case, it will be proven as soon as the Justice investigates the accounts of PTC.

[Nearly There]

You do have a choice, go somewhere else...

[Tinstaafl]

Who said you have to go to OAA, FTE & CTC, or any other school that requires complete payment in advance? Most of the old hands on this website have been singing the 'Don't pay upfront' mantra for many, many years. We've seen lots of schools go tits up, leaving students out of pocket. Not the first time and certainly not the last.

If you feel so strongly that going to a school that requires payment upfront is good way to leapfrog your career, then don't blame anyone else if your money disappears. To address your comment: It's precisely because you *don't* know what's happening with the book keeping in *any* business that you don't pay upfront any more than you're prepared to lose. Or you wear the cost of someone taking that risk on your behalf by arranging insurance. You don't have a contractor build a house for you & pay the whole sum ahead of time so why would you think that's a normal way (or even a reasonable way) to conduct the business of your flying training?

[Sky Scratcher]

I didn't say you have to go to any of them schools, I was giving examples. Can you give me any examples of Integrated schools which don't require students to be 'well in credit'.

To address your comments. First of all, I don't feel "so strongly that going to a school that requires payment up front is a good way to leapfrog MY career". I felt the best way to leapfrog my career was to get on a sponsored cadet scheme with an airline, that's what I done, that's where I was supposed to train. And who am I blaming, and when have I blamed anyone?

Don't jump to conclusions, sir....

[Tinstaafl]

Like I wrote: You didn't *have* to do the training path you attempted - and perhaps completed (and if completed, good for you!). You *chose* to do it, along with the upfront payment, in the hope that you would leap into the cockpit of a shiny jet.

Some amount 'in credit', as you put it, is not necessarily the same as a complete payment up front that lacks even a basic funds protection or preservation mechanism. There certainly isn't a *requirement* to do training via an integrated route. Non-integrated is also available - and nearly always cheaper. If you can't negotiate a satisfactory protected payments program at an integrated school then walk away. You don't need their services as much as they want your money. There is always an alternative way to train.

[pilotbear]

Just another member of the 'I know better than you' club. Like it or not, that is the way of the world now. And yes you do pay for your house in advance, the mortgage company does then you are liable (for three times it's value)
What you should be criticising is the Mike EDGEWORTH family, but no, kick the victim instead. Guess when someone is mugged it is their fault for being in that part of town...

[pilotbear]

FROM BOARDS.ie

This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?

Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}

Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)

Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)

A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)

Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)

Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)

RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)

Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)

Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)

ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)

Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)


Plus in Florida

Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)

[Irelander]

This argument about the wisdom of up-front payment is only forming a circular firing squad.

This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling.
This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades.
They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.

I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.

The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically.
Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.

The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation.
Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.

[Sky Scratcher]

Tinstaafl, yes you're right in what you say - I didn't have pursue this training path. But would you turn down a sponsored place to go it alone? Personally I believe these schemes are the best out there, at present. Not too many jobs about, and now with most LCC's are introducing their own MPL schemes openings for 250 hour guys may well be reducing.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?

Well said pilotbear :ok: There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.

[Cows getting bigger]

Pilotbear, your analogy doesn't really work. A house has value hence the bank's willingness to pay up front on your behalf. Half an ATPL course has no value.

Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.

[a320renewal]

kids these days want it "right now..."
they want a ps3,they want a game boy, and later they want fly a jet, and they will do anything to reach their dream with parents' money, today, not tomorrow.

this is how these young pilots became.spoiled kids!

gosh, what a surprise, when things are not turning they way they want and flight schools run away with their money!.

life is :ouch:, suck it!

[a higher plane]

It should be made a requirement for any FTO or ATO as they will now be called under EASA, to have an escrow payment system in place before they get approval.

Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.

Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.

Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...

[Sky Scratcher]

Another invalid post with no meaning or relevance a320renewal. Your description is far from reality. I've seen you polluting threads before with your limited knowledge and terrible grammer. A quick look a your post statistics made me laugh. Sometimes its funny to see 'old hands' completely shoot down unnecessary posts/users.

Surprised you're not banned yet.

[redbull21]

For those who have kids and have either sent them to private education establishments or indeed university, these education facilities impose yearly fees which parents are required to pay in full at the beginning of the term year!

For those of you who say don't pay up front (and I totaly agree I don't think anyone should hand over 80K for a 15 month course at the beginning of that course), do you think the university or private school is going to allow your kid to start their education without the funds in place?

As I believe it has been mentioned above, most of those PTC students did not pay the whole lot in one instalment and I'm pretty sure it would have been in 4 instalments much like OAA, CTC and FTE do, are you now acussing these 4 well known and established pilot training institutions to be 'suspect' and in the same league as PTC?? I don't think so.

That is how companies work these days and yes if you don't like it take your business elsewhere, however as one poster has already stated, if he is offered a part sponsership with Flybe by attending PTC and PTC ask him for 4 instalments or even two instalments over the course of the 15 months, I think most of us would do so.

BA cadet recruits are currently training with OAA, CTC & FTE, I bet they paid whatever the training provider asked them to and if that was an all up payment they probably did so, would those of you who say don't pay in adavnce advise those indivduals to not do so?

The downfall of PTC is probably more to do with the company trying to grow too fast (you could use the word greed!) and stretching itself to the point of collapse. Just look at the number of companies set up and who knows what other avenues the company has expanded towards.

Purchasing a 737 sim and housing it in Cambridge (if they did in fact purcahse it) is not cheap and it's these sorts of things where some companies use cash meant for other avenues (pilot training) to fulfil other aquisitions (737 sim), now I'm not saying that is the case because I don't know but PTC have always tried to play with the 'big boys'; they never were in that group nor ever will!

For all those students affected, I'm sure you're already way ahead on this but your best course of action is for all of you to collectively pursue the company(s) or individual(s) through the legal process.

It's ironic really but PTC through examinership are looking to resurface with a new business plan to conduct only the IR training in Waterford! If my recollection of PTC serves me right, that is how they first started! mainly marketing those with FAA CPL/IR to train at Waterford for conversions to JAA. Even if this were a viable option for PTC now, is anyone really going to go and train with them in the future?

It is a sad state of affairs and one I hope that the students concerned are able to get some recourse from and lets not forget the staff at PTC who through no fault of their own, have overnight become unemployed in this current climate.

[Tinstaafl]

What those who act the way Mike Edgeworth et al appears to have done is reprehensible. But even without such behaviour, flying schools go tits up. Sometimes it's inept management, sometimes just a poor economy that can't support the business model, and sometimes it's through dishonesty. The point is you have no way of knowing the financial circumstances of a school. Even publicly owned companies' books aren't entirely clear.

That doesn't change the fact that handing over tens of thousands of pounds to any organisation, without any form of funds protection, for what is little more than a nice promise for future value received can't be defended as a particularly sensible way to arrange your flying training.

Pilotbear, you're wrong about your mortgage analogy. You gain the ownership of the property if you complete the contract terms eg the exchange money for the property. If you get the money using a typical loan arrangement then it's the mortgage company that's taking the risk that you're going to pay them back and they - sensibly - don't give you the money without insurance in the form of a mortgage on the property. As long as if you make the loan repayments until the loan is completely paid off then the house is yours.

Would you loan $50,000 or $100,000 to a stranger without security? Because that's pretty much what paying up front is doing.

If you accept a part sponsorship, it's because you think it will fast track you into a nice, shiny jet. If it involves paying large amounts up front then that's a risk you *choose* to take on your route to a jet job, even though there are alternative ways to eventually get there.

[redbull21]

Examiner appointed to Waterford pilot training school - The Irish Times - Fri, Jul 27, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0727/1224320884701.html)

[Flying fast]

Very interesting reading your comments about PTC and wish you all well. I attended a presentation recently and it sounds like the same bunch are at it again. One was a guy who calls himself Capt Mark Robinson and the other with a strange haircut called Neil Danna Davies. It all sounded to good to be true and have since heard through the grapevine that they were all part of the PTC/ Cabair fiasco. Sounds to me like they are a bunch of wannabies who are trying to financially screw young wannabies.

Do the names ring any bells ??

[jigger01]

Interesting post.Looking at pilotbears previous post where
names are mentioned with relation to this company I don't
see either of these two appearing.
There could in fact,I'm sure,be a whole lot of names from the
world of PTC that could be brought up for examination,including
many (ex)staff members that could also be possibly blamed in
some small,(or large) way for this companys demise,but again
I bet they won't be the same names appearing in the 'boards.ie' post.

Is this a case of going after the monkeys but not the organ-grinders?

[Irelander]

Investors attracted to Waterford pilot firm - Business - Longford Leader (http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/business/investors-attracted-to-waterford-pilot-firm-1-4098612)

It seems the 'Captain' is still free to pedal his snake oil :yuk:

[Bornfreee]

Both individuals named in Flying fast post were ex PTC staff, though I believe they left (or were sacked not sure which!) prior to the company demise. Both also now work for Atlantic Flight training Coventry, not sure if they were briefly connected to Cabair though.

The Captain is an ex student of PTC who didn't finsh the course but then went onto to work at PTC.

The Head Of Training resigned around Christmas 2011, possibly as he saw the writing on the wall!

[pilotbear]

Firstly, Irelander you have got it spot on...
Secondly, 'the hairdresser and captain fantastic' sounds like a movie!

Now in answer to the post earlier..

MARK ROBERTSON - failed pilot. He was the worst student i had in 10 years of instructing. The only person who I gave up on with the CPL course. Never passed an instrument rating. Excuse after excuse of non performance master . Came over to Florida once for PTC and spent the whole trip while all his colleagues were working pretending to be sick and going to Hooters.

Dana Davies - (Isn't that a girls name?) Never ever been a pilot of any sort whatsoever, nearest he got to aviation was the passenger compartment of an easy jet 737 to Malaga. I thought he was a hairdresser actually.

Sinead O'Marcaigh - Telecoms saleswoman. Knows nothing about aviation except how to lie to get money out of people. A true Edgeworth disciple except....she and Edgeworth are 'partners' even though he is still married and have been for many years as you all know....or didn't they tell you that?

Anything else you want to know?
If you encounter any of these people trying to sell you something run away screaming!

Regarding paying up front, it happened like this;
Method 1,
The students paid money into a holding account and started training. Then at critical moments in the training when the student couldn't say no..(this was all planned in advance) they would get a phone call or email from Sinead or Siobhan or one of the other sales team depending how short of money the Ponzi scheme was saying training was suspended and threatening and YES I mean threatening, to terminate the 'student' from the program ( in Florida the threat that the student would be sent home with no refund) unless they paid in more money to top up the account.
Method 2,
PTC would deliberately over-bill the students and ONLY pay the money back if the student noticed.
Many tried to alert students on here to method 2 while it was happening but the moderator who was clearly allied with edgeworth ( no, not <..>) cut the posts and sent me rude and threatening emails.
Hope he is sleeping soundly now these kids have had their money stolen!

I know for an absolute fact that there are many students that this happened to, I wonder if any of them has the :mad: to post to confirm or are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?

A320 renewal - you are a :mad:

[McNulty]

Just found this:

No easy path to a high-flying career as a pilot - Latest Business News - Business News - Business - Birmingham Post (http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/businesslatest/2011/04/15/no-easy-path-to-a-high-flying-career-as-a-pilot-65233-28528545/2/)

"You’ll need to find €85,000 to enrol and if you haven’t got that sort of cash lying around then you’ll need to take out a loan and most likely use your home (or your parents’ home) as security.

Captain Mark Robertson, who is also part of the flight crew selection team, said it’s a commitment that needs to be considered carefully.

“It’s probably the biggest financial commitment of someone’s life, other than buying a house, so it’s not to be taken lightly and it will take you up to ten years to pay it off.”



"Capt Robertson said once students are there they rarely, if ever, fail to deliver. Over a six-year period there have been just two drop-outs – one was kicked out for drinking on campus and the other got pregnant."



"Capt Robertson said: “We train 400 pilots a year but we are going to have to expand to cope with demand from airlines. As many as 79,000 pilots are going to be required in Europe alone over the next 20 years.

As someone who has clearly enjoyed his own flying career he said: “Where else can you go into your office, put the heater on, fly to 35,000 feet and see sunshine every day.”


Lies, lies, lies. Fake captains, liars, cheats, conmen....where the hell is the regulation in the flight training industry. And shame on the IAA for standing by and letting this happen under their noses.

I sincerely hope some of these conmen see the inside of a prison cell, although i doubt it in a country that hasn't managed to jail a single banker yet.

[pilotbear]

Mark Robertson IS NOT A CAPTAIN. He is lying, he could not pass his IR!! He has a single engine CPL, that was arranged for him to pass.
OMG the Edgeworth trait of lying about status and qualifications is really being passed down eh?
This has to stop!
How about a newspaper article telling THE TRUTH FOR A CHANGE, Where are all the true investigative journalists? Hiding behind their ipads in the coffee bars hacking into people phones probably:E

And as for the IAA, That can be answered by the cosy lunches and weekends at Faithlegg country club in Waterford with Edgeworth and the 'other' government lackeys.

As for PTC being reborn...do you not think that every airline in the world will be not be fully informed of the business dealings of Edgeworth along with every name associated with him and PTC........:E

And If I was him and I owed an eastern european business 1.2 million, I would be wearing a bulletproof vest....only a rumour...

[Irelander]

“...are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?”

Pilotbear,

Your question reduces all aspects of this sorry tale to its very essence.

Some of the posts here display a thinly veiled admiration for the shyster Edgeworth and his ‘business’ practices.
The concept of trust and essential honesty is now considered to be a weakness to be exploited at every turn.

The meteoric trajectory of Edgeworth to the pinnacle of his ‘Captaincy’ could not have happened without high level political collusion and the tacit approval of the IAA.

I believe it’s standard practice to track the money trail in these types of crimes.
In this particular case it might be enlightening to follow the ink of authorising signatures and stamps and then scout around for the empty brown envelopes.

[ollie1997]

Anyone heard anything regarding the PTC/Edgeworth proceedings? Seems to have gone off the radar!!!!! Anyone?

[Jugs08]

Totally agree, everyone wants it now and that makes you vulnerable to get turned over. A lot of sales techniques really on rash decisions. And even the ba scheme at 100k for a job is so much money. If the industry didn't allow these backhand deals then all the low hour jobs wouldn't be sown up. Unfortunately it seems as though pilots are being squeezed while everyone else takes home the cash. But hey this is the legacy of the last labour government eg you will all go to UNI and all get good jobs. So expectations have been set way above what is realistic. Leading to a generation of angry individuals that feel the world owes them something when it doesn't. Inherent greed by the banking sector doesn't help but when you see all the
Media the majority of young people want to be rich and have all those things. Rather than do something they enjoy even if it isn't the most well paid such as a flying job not just the shiny jet that really should be part of longer term ambitions, but a bonus if you can get it early if that's what you want.

[ollie1997]

PILOT SCHOOL boss Mike Edgeworth has been feeling the heat following the news that his Waterford-based company, Pilot Training College Ltd (PTC), has left 34 trainee pilots stranded in Florida, some of whom have paid up to €85,000 for the privilege. Now Goldhawk can reveal that the Edgeworth family went on a big spending spree in early 2008, and bought up 13 houses on a new housing estate in Waterford. And at the end of 2010, PTC had accumulates losses of €2.8m.Documents lodged with theLand Registry show
that in February and March of 2008, Edgeworth bought 11 houses on an estate called Poplar Drive, in Butlerstown just outside Waterford city. This is
located near the Waterford Institute of Technology and about a 20-minute drive from Waterford Airport, where Edgeworth’s PTC is based. Poplar Drive consists of detached three and four-bed houses and one house in this estate recently went on the market with an asking price of €255,000. Edgeworth took out mortgages from Anglo Irish Bank to fund these purchases.
Land Registry files also show that Edgeworth’s children – Ruth (23), Laura (29) and George (31) – also each bought a house in Poplar Drive in 2008, although these purchases were funded through banks other than Anglo. The children are all directors on various Mike Edgeworth-companies. Land Registry files also show that back in 2003, Mike Edgeworth and his wife Ann re-mortgaged their Co Kildare family home with a €1⁄2m mortgage from Bank of Scotland.
In recent media interviews Edgeworth
– who in 2010 was the chairman of the judging panel for the Rose of Tralee – gave no indication that PTC was experiencing financial difficulty. In an interview for The Irish Times last March, he spoke instead about how PTC had just won a major new contract with Gulf Aviation Academy to train 150 cadets over two years, worth €12m. However, the latest accounts filed for PTC – made to the end of 2010 – show that the company had accumulated losses of €2.8m, although it recorded a profit of €135,000 in that financial year.
A company called Shemburn Ltd is the group company for various Edgeworth- related vehicles (ie assorted aviation companies in the UK and Ireland). The latest accounts here showed that Shemburn lost €255,000 in 2010 and had a deficit in shareholders’ funds of more than €1m. A note in those accounts – signed off in August 2011 – states that the company nvolved in a legal action in the Netherlands in which it is being sued by a former contractor named Rene Dijkshoorn, who is claiming €133,000 in respect of unpaid charges of two aircraft and €28,000 over unpaid invoices for replacement engines. Shemburn has lodged a counterclaim for €117,000 for breach of contract against Dijkshoorn.

PTC is not the first time Edgeworth has been involved with a company that has ran into difficulty. In the 1990s, he was the director of a telecommunications company called Alternative Telecommunications Services Ltd – which was active in Russia – although this collapsed into liquidation in 2000. One of the notable directors here was the former Fianna Fáil minister David Andrews, who had stepped down from the board in 1997.

[pilotbear]

So the Fraud squad are after edgeworthless now...about time too. :ok:

Garda Fraud Squad considers probe into pilot training college | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-fraud-squad-considers-probe-into-pilot-training-college-203676.html)

Lets see if the Garda are as corrupt as the government.

Ireland, your reputation hangs on this......


I hear that statements from former employees are being solicited:E:E:E

Bring it on....

[oneinthemirror]

Interesting to note that this thread hasn't been deleted like so many others that tried to broadcast the truth about PTC's criminal behaviour over the last few years, coincidentally just as the money ran out....:E. It does beg the question as to how many of these students who were caught up in this mess and have lost a fortune might have given PTC a wide berth had they been able to read all of what previous students had posted. I hope the moderator/s in question are sleeping soundly at night

[ollie1997]

http://www.phoenix-magazine.com/phoenix/subscriber/library/volume-30/issue-14/contents.pdf;jsessionid=3C8C0E37B9D0AA7FFD64BA8DD65A819A


one in the mirror, I wholeheartly agree with your statement. The students and their families are the ones who lost out! Shame on people who cover up for companies and disregard the best interests of the students.

[pilotbear]

oneinthemirror
thank you for that last statement, that is what I have been trying to do for 5 years:ok:

[jigger01]

Never in the field of financial conflict has so much been owed by so few to so many....

[rankace]

Now that PTC are gone, who will SIMTECH get to sell their overpriced MCC courses to now.

[GolfTangoFoxtrot]

Out of interest and nosiness, anyone know the situation with the new Flybe cadets that headed out to Florida just before this all kicked off?

[average-punter]

I believe they are now with another integrated training provider. I can't remember which one as I think I am getting mixed up with the Cabair group!

[pilotbear]

I believe Flybe use FTC in Jerez and Oxford for the MPL licences. There was no contract for PTC/Flybe in 2012 as far as I saw. They saw through the PTC bull a while back. The Flybe guys were on the whole very good, but they were there in the good days of PTC Florida before Edgeworthless was let back into society..
Nice article from Ollie 1997. It just confirms government connections and that the whole family are in it (along with the new addition the ex CFI of FIT who used his position last year to pass confidential information to PTC's advantage). Allegedly of course:E

[PrestonPilot]

Another total guess from the guy above. There was a deal with PTC Flybe this year, I had an interview in April with Flybe, 4 guys were taken in the end and no doubt got caught up in all this nonsense but are probably training at Oxford instead now.

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Indeed, FlyBe have selected 4 part-sponsored candidates in April.

All good blokes - hope they found alternative options for continuation of training.

Quite frankly I am disgusted at the lies PTC continued to tell right up until the point the examiner was appointed (and more than likely continue to tell). They had no intention of putting the students' interests first and I hope they never work in flying again. Unfortunately I fear this will not be the case.

What is wrong with the world!

[oneinthemirror]

Just wondering does anyone know if egdeworthless was still judging the 'lovely gerruls' contest earlier this week? RTE must be disgusted now that all that sponsorship money (to clarify: student's money) has dried up, but at least they were nice about the whole ordeal and made sure none of their reporters probed too deeply last month. Amazing how many people I've talked to outside of the aviation community who think the entire problem was caused by FIT in Florida... good old incorruptible media always giving both sides :ugh:

[pilotbear]

Well we just need to educate them really don't we.

[pilotbear]

wrong assumption Preston Pilot, I guess nothing. Flybe had no intention to use PTC whatsoever.
They use CTC, Oxford, FTC and Stella (Netherlands).
They also use Aero's, PAT and BCFT for the modular courses
I suppose to the un-informed PTC, FTC, CTC all sound the same eh?

[PrestonPilot]

dude, what are you talking about? I was sat in the interview with them in exeter where 3 people interviewed me, 2 of them from PTC to join PTC in June. 4 people were offered the job and started but PTC now went bust...

if you want I can show you the emails from Flybe dated April 2012

[jez d]

There were indeed Flybe cadets training at PTC, who have now switched to CAE-OAA.

I suppose to the un-informed PTC, FTC, CTC all sound the same eh?

Apparently so - by FTC I presume you mean FTEJerez ?

[engineer86]

hey lads,just to let u know mike edgeworth has set up a farm near the airport,seemingly he bought over 100 cows and paid over the odds,he setting up a milking parlor in the farm too spent hundred of thousands,employs a few eastern Europeans as security for at the farms a blatant kick in the face to students who are owed money or training and employees who are owed wages from weeks ago.also he has brand new piper seminole in america bought for training but mad a bad judgement call on it,it has a wrong cockpit layout for training.Seemingly theres two investors who want to by ptc out!!

[Irelander]

Aw c'mon! Try swiping basic literacy with a glancing stab :*

[Telstar]

Aw c'mon! Try swiping basic literacy with a glancing stab

It's a sad statement of Irish literacy skills, which are some of the worst in the developed world. Visit boards.ie and wincingly read plenty of similar examples from "educated" Irish adults.

[Irelander]

Ah but, no but, G-RICH

that nooows is from d’verry horses mowt. That inginear fella has been lurkin round since 2009 an then squezzez out a single post – wha*?

evry hoor nos that the entire edgeworth tribe grabbed up shedloads a prune usernames to be used in the event a there houses bein burnted dowin to the axils :}
(and to refute and deny all accusations of shady dealing and general scumbaggery when their crimes and scams were netting peak returns)

[McNulty]

Oh come on, get some new material on edgeworthless guys, this joke has been milked for long enough.

[Irelander]

G-RICH

‘Back in the day’ the Edgeworth tribe was so unfeasibly large that is allowed each and every great aunt, seventh cousin and assorted hanger-on to register as bona fide Pprune members
(amazing how few of them are around now that the walls of the sh**thouse have blown apart)

If you’re running short of chuckles trawl through some of the historic PTC threads.
All inconvenient negativity is countered by random ‘college’ members describing their journey from spotted youth to square-cut ATP in terms of transcendent religious experience.
Typically each of these contributors has only a handful of previous posts – with an almost uncanny similarity of writing style to the great :}Captain:} himself.

On a more serious note, there was a very valid point made in a previous post regarding the influence of PTC’s advertising budget on the moderation of this website.
Certainly there was a bias in moderation here by the suppression of adverse publicity when the PTC scam was at its height.

There were many who attempted to raise a warning flag on the Edgeworth’s operation only to have an eraser rubbed through their efforts.
Perhaps the culpability of Pprune as the ‘media’ should be questioned a little further in this case.

McNulty,

There’s no need to scratch for ‘new material’ on Edgeworth.
The accumulations of his stinking heap should last everyone a lifetime – and then some.
It should be sufficient to ask the question that so many in Ireland are asking about so many un-convicted criminals: Why is he not behind bars?

[Blizt45]

I have lost money with PTC, anyone that can give me an exact location of this immoral, unintelligent man, I will be most grateful.

If you would also like a reward, I will happily give a small contribution.

[ephemeris]

Blitz

I believe you willl find him at EIWF. I heard yesterday that they are flying again! Training Saudis...

[Irelander]

Hey! That’ll be great news for the ‘Nobs’ at Ccastle PPRuNe.

When :}Air Commodore Edgeworth’s:} bag ‘o’ stolen bills lands on the advertising desk he’ll be buying the finest and most ‘favourable’ moderation that money can buy – yet again!

It’s probably best not to give too much credence to this rumour.
After all, no ‘state authority’ would be dumb and stupid enough to re-issue a training ticket to the likes of this crim.

Not even the IAA would be moroni....Oh NO! wait a minute :eek:

[jigger01]

I was going to post this piece below from The Irish Times dated Wed 26th Sept,as it is a straight forward piece of factual reporting but I have since heard through the electronic jungle drums that they may have gone into liquidation..can anyone substantiate this?
I did hear that there was ground school going on recently (Not flying)and that 'Elvis' apparently had not left the building being safely ensconsed
in 'PTC' towers at the airport business park.

Here is the link to Wednesdays report

Extension granted to pilot school examiner - The Irish Times - Wed, Sep 26, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0926/1224324429173.html)

Anyone any ideas?

[mad_jock]

Looks to me as if they are trying to get all the students wiped off so they can start again without having to get all the approvals setup.

So it looks like if he gets away with it the students are in for a right raping.

[MCDU2]

"Hopelessly insolvent" according to the Indo. Now take it with a grain of salt as it really should be a red top as its a rag.

Pilot training college &lsquo;hopelessly insolvent&rsquo; after proposed investor pulls out - Courts, National News - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/pilot-training-college-hopelessly-insolvent-after-proposed-investor-pulls-out-3243631.html)

[mutt]

PTC are still banging on doors trying to drum up business, but I'm curious, what license are they operating under? I thought that the IAA pulled their approvals?

[mad_jock]

So was cabair up to the bitter end.

[ShamilN]

Pretty much every company associated with Tony Kember?

[Matrix12]

Pilot Training College Bankrupt

Edgeworths New Company:

From CRO - Companies Registration Office Ireland (http://www.cro.ie)

Details

Type Company
Number 518376
Name CLEARSKY PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE LIMITED
Address BOEING AVENUE, AIRPORT BUSINESS PARK
KILLOWEN
CO. WATERFORD
Registered 03/10/2012
Status Normal

Effective date: 03/10/2012
Next AR Date 03/04/2013

[oneinthemirror]

And on and on this farce continues... new company, same criminals running it out of the same building, and a nice clean slate with no debts and no recourse for students who were robbed... because that was a different company that did that, not us, we only just opened our doors...

[McNulty]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/evening-chronicle-news/2012/07/10/north-flight-training-school-on-lookout-for-future-pilots-72703-31361879/#sitelife-commentsWidget-bottom


100k sterling for a course in Jordan? Being run by a fake captain who never even achieved a basic MEIR?

Another scam and disaster waiting to happen unfortunately.

[Groundloop]

Being run by a fake captain


He's not a fake captain. I am also a captain - it says so at the top of the columns in my old PPL logbook.:ok:

[pilotbear]

OK this crap has to stop.
Anyone stupid enough to pay money to this company CLEARSKY pilot training college does not deserve to hold a pilot licence.
Mark Robertson IS NOT, never has been and never will be a Captain. Neither will Edgeworthless whose Commercial pilot career is 400 hrs in the right seat of an HS125 and even that is questionable.
He was my student and is the only, yes the only student in 10 years of instructing that I had to give up on. He ha not even got an Multi Engine IR. He is personally responsible as is the Edgeworthless family for ripping off young impressionable students and their families.
My own logbook entry states F*****g useless, won't ever be a pilot as long as he has a hole in his a**e.
Everyone and every airline and operator in the world will be fully informed of the history behind these people.

[Matrix12]

Public Information: :D

From Whois.com - Domain Names & Identity for Everyone (http://www.whois.com)

Clearsky Pilot Training (http://www.whois.com/whois/clearskypilottraining.com)

Registrant:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Creation Date: 27-Sep-2012
Expiration Date: 27-Sep-2013

Domain servers in listed order:
ns1.webhostingireland.ie
ns2.webhostingireland.ie
ns3.webhostingireland.ie


Administrative Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Technical Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Billing Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Status:ACTIVE

Mike Edgeworth (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) :=
Diarmuid Maher (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/2b/472/453) :=

Pilot Training College (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056690106)

Fraud (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-fraud-squad-considers-probe-into-pilot-training-college-203676.html) :ok:

[redbull21]

The Senator asks about reports that a new company has been established at the same address as PTC. I understand that a company, Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited, has been registered at that address. The IAA has not received any application for approval from the company involved. However, following these reports, last Thursday, 4 October, the IAA inspected the premises of the company in question and found that the company is providing refresher training for an international non-EU client. That training does not meet the standard required for an Irish or EU pilot's licence. Should this new entity wish to provide training meeting stringent EU standards, like any other company it will have to apply to the IAA for approval.

While the Companies Acts do not come within my remit, I am advised that a registered company is a legal entity separate from its owners, shareholders and directors. The owners of a limited liability company are liable only for the amount of money that they have invested in the company and are not liable for the entire debts of the company. PTC was such a limited liability company. Distressing as it may be for all creditors of PTC, whether students or firms, under the Companies Act, if a person is the owner or director of a company that is put into liquidation, the directors and owners are legally entitled to establish or continue to be involved with another company and the debts of the first company do not transfer with the owners or directors to the new company. Creditors of the failed private entity should pursue the recovery of their debts with the liquidator if possible. As I have said already, neither the Government nor the IAA accept any liability for a private company's debts. Nevertheless, I acknowledge the Senator's comments that the students and their families have been wronged. They have been wronged by the company involved and not the Irish taxpayer.

[pilotbear]

Just for your information for Atlantic Flight Tarining is now run by....wait for it...Dana Davis. The old hairdresser sales guy that ran the PTC scam. He is stocking it with former PTC instructor wannabees and old mates. The good guys have left in disgust.
KEEP AWAY, he is running it into the ground for his own personal financial gain.
As for this Jordan operation with Edgeworthless, it is under investigation and we will let you know what we find and if Edgeworthless is involved every effort will be made to finish it.
It helps to have lots of former colleagues in the Middle East Aviation Business to whom reputation is everything. If they think Edgeworthless has lied or is stealing from them, which is likely and he will ruin their reputation he will be on the next plane out:ok: (minus his right hand:p)

[pilotbear]

Allegedly it is rumoured......Neil Dana Davies is

1. Vastly overpaid for what he does - £75k salary, car expenses and 0.5% upfront commission fees per new student recruited via national recruitment events.

2. Claiming at student pilot recruitment and assessment events run in hotels around the country that he is (or used to be) an airline pilot, but is currently not flying due to a medical problem.

3. At the same events, he regularly wears a pilot uniform, complete with epaulettes and gold bars on his sleeves. Quite apart from the stupid ‘look at me’ haircut, he can be instantly recognised by his patent black leather winkle-picker shoes and a name badge which clearly states his position as ‘Commander DAVIES’ (also worn when working at AFT). The guy’s flying experience amounts to approximately 17 hrs in a C152 for ***** sake!

4. He has been heard first-hand telling would-be students who attend these events that they are ‘guaranteed a job with an airline’ if they sign on the dotted line. I have heard this myself at PTC recruitment days.

I hear Edgeworth has been renewing his Ratings with a well known examiner from up-north. The very same one who has just started work for Atlantic.

The Edgeworth links are are slipping in guys....

As for the Jordan story, there appears to be a link between the chairman of AFT and the 'investors' for PTC

[mmatalla]

Dear Pilotbear;

I am the Chairman of AFT, and although I am not sure what your point is, I am happy to correct your information and answer any relevant question you may have. Needless to say, I will not endulge in gossip, hearsay or slander.

Yes, Dana is the COO of AFT and doing a great job. He has more gutts and dignity than many people I have worked with, and he has my full support. I don't know if he was a hairdresser or not, but being a hairdresser is not shameful, not is any job that brings food to your table in an honest manner.

Yes, Dana receives a salary, which I will not share with you for obvious reasons, but he does not get any comission.

I have never heard Dana claim to be a pilot, nor have I ever seen him in a pilot uniform. As a matter fo fact, he has a collection of black suites that I am trying to get him to trade-in. Nonethless, it is not the clothes that make the man.

Dana, and our entire team, are always careful to point out that "nobody" can guarantee anyone a job. In fact, I invite you to attend the next information session to hear his entire presentation first hand. I will even invite you to dinner as my guest.

There is no link between Mr. Edgeworth and AFT. AFT is owned entirely by my family, as is Ayla Aviation Academy in Jordan.

Yes, we took on some former PTC staff, including our Head of Training. We also have former Cabair personnel, as well as staff with experience in other FTO's. This is the nature of any business, and we are very proud of our staff.

Sincerely,

Marwan Atalla

[pilotbear]

Then you are deluded my friend. Good luck with it all but as far as many, many people are concerned the PTC sales team are responsible for the fraud as equally as Edgeworthless. I have personally witnessed the claims that I and many other true professionals have stated many times. So If you wish to be less than honest then it is your affair.
What goes on when you are not around is for you to work out. As I said i have seen it many times personally.
If you wish to support these people it speaks volumes about you and your integrity. You have come into the industry with I hope good intentions and have taken on the dregs of the industry and for you I am sad. There are many many very talented and honest people available in our industry yet you sink to the depths. Well good luck:ok:
A little education would go a long way......

As for rumours...... that is what this site is all about. Get used to it.:D

[BravoSierraKilo]

Haven't completely read the thread but I went to see the PTC 2 years back and was about to apply for the assessment but due to family life I never got the chance.

Relieved that I didn't after hearing this :oh:

Pay by flight is my only way now.....These colleges look great on paper but personally I think a rating by rating in your own time is far better.

Im sure there are some great colleges out there but in todays climate handing over that amount of cash is not safe :confused:

Hope all Student Pilots involved get sorted :ok:

[ollie1997]

How does a company who failed to meet its financial obligations to creditors, to customers and to all the students and families have the ability to reopen under a new name with the same players on board??????

Why is this allowed? How???

Just take money, take money and take money....get liquidated and reopen again under a new business?

What happened to honor in aviation? What happened to a handshake is all you need for a honest business transaction to be fulfilled?

What happened to personal responsibility when operating an aviation business?

What happened to caring about your clients and students?

How does one sleep at night knowing families have lost thousands and dreams dashed away because of pure greed?

Anyone have an answer?

[mad_jock]

because they can mate.

I can tell you that they won't be loosing sleep.

They will have multiple reasons why it didn't work none of which will be the bosses fault (you get used to this in aviation)

They might even blame pprune for not getting more pillocks in and not continuing the pyramid of finace which most training providers seem to use.

Nobody gives a stuff about the punters or students.

And the grab the cash and reopen not a problem, all legal.

[McNulty]

Mr. Atalla,

Is "Captain" Mark Robertson a member of your staff?

If so do you find it acceptable that someone with no airline experience, no instructing experience and without having ever even attained a basic frozen ATPL is calling themselves a captain and being presented to potential students as such?

[easydebt]

1. No

2. It doesn't matter now (to AFT) because he has been dismissed. I don't have definite knowledge, but I believe it was simply because he was not bringing home the bacon.

This is honourable I think, because whatever the truth behind everything about his past, student recruiting was his single and clear task with AFT. Ironic perhaps, given his skills in selling himself to AFT?

[redbull21]

Mark Roberston is a farmer by trade, he signed up to do PTC's airline program (zero to hero) a few years back, however as previous posts have stated he was unable to complete his CPL/ME and did not even get onto the IR course. As pilotbear states it was 'managed' to get him a CPL/SE!

Last time I looked, Monarch do not operate any single engine jet transport aircraft , so I think that may answer your question about his claim to be a pilot/captain with that or any other airline.

He has no airline experience (apart from as a passenger), nor does he have or ever passed a Multi engine rating nor an instrument rating!

[Irelander]

Ollie1997,

The answer to your question is CORRUPTION
The smell of Edgeworth’s greed was foul enough when PTC (version 1) was hammered shut before it was scoured of all spare change.

Edgeworth’s continued impunity to stroll around with €5.5 Million in stolen cash has the unmistakable stench of political and ‘departmental’ collusion which is made even more unbearable as we now witness the thief plan his next crime in plain sight.

The IAA can’t keep jotting out ‘position statements’ claiming total innocence and ignorance of all wrongdoing. Why did it give tacit approval for a ‘Pilot College’ to a geezer with a barely dry PPL and NO history whatsoever in the sphere of ‘big iron’ transport aviation?

Why hasn't anyone cornered Bertie Ahern and asked him how much palm grease it took to smash a bottle of champers on the hull of PTC when it was launched - and what implications would arise from that party political 'alliance'?

The questions keep coming, and it’s interesting to see that the pressure exerted by ‘pilotbear’ and others in keeping this thread to the fore is beginning to draw some results.

If we keep our collective eyes on the critters scattering from under the stones we might catch sight of a ‘fat one’ as it makes a break for cover.
Meanwhile we should keep repeating ‘pilotbears’ previous question...

WHERE’S THE MONEY? - WHERE’S THE MONEY? - WHERE’S THE MONEY?

[Flying fast]

After attending a presentation by this character Davies and Robinson some Months ago, it was obvious to most of the attendees there after the event, that they were a couple of ''sharks and Conmen'' trying to use their salesman tactics and woffle to decieve young people who are trying to achieve their dream in an honest profession.

It is Interesting reading the comments by both ''Pilot Bear'' and many others and the reply from MMAtalla.
There is a saying ''If you lay down with dogs you may get up with fleas''.

It would be very wise for Mr.MMAtalla to take notice of potential customers,they are your bread and butter, and word speads very quickly these days.

I had good reports from previous students friends, of AFT and the instructors,courses and management two years ago, but would now stay well clear with these well known individuals now involved.

Every company needs to market their product, but please find someone who is honest and factual about the industry, there are some genuine people out there with a solid background in Aviation.
We are not all gullible.

Disillusioned Wanabee

[fa2fi]

I seen sonething similar to this on the notice board in my club today. It won't be there tomorrow! It was for everyone and not just those with military affiliation. I assumed it was Atlantic at Coventry. However the link below does not show the prices which are £129 instead of the usual £149.

http://flyaft.com/media/aft-atc-flybe-part-sponsored-cadetship.pdf

[pilotbear]

By the way and I will have to hint at this 'allegation or rumour as the original post was deleted, and it is rumoured that I can prove this as i have may or may not have evidence that the hairdresser quoted himself on dating sites as an Airline Captain. That is how honest your employee is Mr AFT.:eek:

And the only thing your 'team' are careful to point out is where to sign your name on the contract after you have signed your cheque:ok:

[a higher plane]

I confirm the remarks in regard to Mark Robertson. Whether he was lead astray by the guile of Dana Davies or not is an argument for another day.

As for Mr Davies he has no commercial licences or experience of operating aircraft. His previous exploits include salesman for Merlyn bathrooms, so he is well used to operating in the sewer and peddling sh*te.

As for Mr Edgeworth I am told that he has made three attempts to get airborne from Waterford in order to renew his ratings. The first time he got all the way to the hold point and was refused clearance for departure and sent back to the ramp. Unpaid bills in ramps charges and hangarage etc. He argued that the aircraft belonged to Shemburn had nothing to do with PTC and so were being operated privately.

I have also since learned that he bumped into a former employee of PTC at Waterford airport, his comments to the employee being, that the examinership was to save his company and the jobs of the employees.
Now that PTC was over he was heard to say that it was good to be back in the aviation industry and would not be making the same mistakes he did the last time.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ollie1997]

What happened to the post that called out a person's name and not their user name? Did someone get a little too close to the truth? Can't take the heat cause you know these "rumours" might be a bit more than "rumour" so you felt the need to get ratty? How grown up of you.

Might this person, A.W., be the previous CFI from PTC Ireland? Is he, A.W., also an IAA examiner? Little cosy relationship? Hmmmm? All rumours of course?

Anyone who is in the know and important knows who Pilotbear is! He is anything but a coward. He has continued to ring truth about PTC and Edgeworthless for years and unfortunately the warnings were not heeded:ugh:

Shame on moderators who censored his posts previously. Shame on people who EVER DOUBTED Pilotbear and believed Edgeworthless and his lack luster team. You know who you are, Pilotbear was right the entire time.

Heard Pilotbear may be accepting apologies from you at his convenience. ;):ok:

[pilotbear]

a Higher Plane;
We tried to post that link before, hope fully the Mod will just remove the link (just doing his job I guess) not the valuable information in the post:ok:
But thanks for joining in:ok: the more people that know the truth the better for us all.
I hope mr. AFT realises that we are not attacking him but the sharks that willingly and ruthlessly stole money from young students and their families

Ollie 1997:
I saw that too, thanks mate:ok:

AW:
Hey up, Nice try lad> If you want to be associated with Edgeworthless then that is poor judgement on the part of a usually highly intelligent and formerly well respected guy. Odd really considering your opinion of the guy in private. But is your decision, must be money in it eh?

AND, Ladies and Gentlemen can I just remind Everyone that SHEMBURN is the EDGEWORTHLESS family as previously discussed

[BravoSierraKilo]

So let me get this somewhat straight..

ClearSky Pilot Training is a new company set up by PTC / Brian Edgeworth...is that allowed to happen when a company is under investigation??

I know a company is a separate entity but this is a bit suss :=

[ollie1997]

BSK.....yep. Check it out!


Clearsky Pilot Training
Public Information:

From Whois.com - Domain Names & Identity for Everyone

Clearsky Pilot Training

Registrant:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Creation Date: 27-Sep-2012
Expiration Date: 27-Sep-2013

Domain servers in listed order:
ns1.webhostingireland.ie
ns2.webhostingireland.ie
ns3.webhostingireland.ie


Administrative Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Technical Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Billing Contact:
Pilot Training College
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford,0000
IE
Tel. +353.051876706

Status:ACTIVE

Mike Edgeworth
Diarmuid Maher

Pilot Training College

Fraud

[pilotbear]

BSK welcome to the fray.
Yes Clearsky is Mike EDGEWORTHLESS, unless he has renamed himself Brian. He is quoted as saying "he is glad to be back in Aviation again, and he wont be making the same mistakes again'. Better stay in bed then Mike:E

Guess that really means this time he wont be getting caught robbing people and allegedly he has another IAA examiner on his side now.

Oh and the 'limited places available' and we have 'freed up space for YOU'! trick is an old DD PTC trick. If you can sign your name or an X on the cheque your are in. They used to pretend to fit people specially in if they signed on the day:ugh::ugh::ugh:

And I can confirm Edgeworthless's ratings were renewed by the aforementioned examiner.

[ollie1997]

Higher Plane,

Did Edgeworthless ever get his ratings renewed?

[BravoSierraKilo]

Ollie1997 / PilotBear

Ah the great Irish Legal System....mess up a company and destroy peoples dreams..and sure set up another company, we'll be grand :mad:

I feel sorry for those who sign up for ClearSky Fraud Training :sad:

[ollie1997]

Shemburn Limited was founded on 13 Apr 2000 and has its registered office in Co Waterford. The organisation's status is active, and they have 8 associated directors - 4 are current, and 4 are former. There are 8 shareholders of the company. The company has 2 subsidiaries. The business has assets of EUR1,339,208 plus liabilities of EUR5,706,104. They are due to pay EUR160,314 to creditors and are owed back EUR292,187 from trade debtors. Last year, they paid EUR123,382 in tax and had EUR607,923 in cash reserves. Shemburn Limited reported a gross profit of EUR2,978,040 in their latest financial records. The company's current net worth is EUR-850,719, and the value of their shareholders' interest is EUR949,064. Owns RTF Limited and Skytrace Limited

Diarmuid Maher (50)
Company Secretary, No Function
16 Sep 2011 – Present (1 year, 1 month, 5 days)
Current

Anthony Howard Kember (72)
Director, No Function
29 Dec 2009 – Present (2 years, 9 months, 22 days)
Current

Michael James Edgeworth (57) :E
Director, No Function
20 Oct 2000 – Present (12 years, 1 day)
Current

George Edgeworth (31)
Director, No Function
20 Oct 2000 – Present (12 years, 1 day)

[Warrior2]

Sex Addicts, Fake Pilots, Robbery & Fraud,

If I made a film about this, Id make a fortune!

[a higher plane]

Not sure if the ratings were renewed or not. It was made clear in conversation to said AW, who is a CAA examiner allegedly, that in fact he should be careful getting involved with Mr Edgeworths ratings because:
1. Mr Edgeworth was required to do retraining under the guidance of an FTO which does not exist in Waterford.
2. The training needs sign off by an HOT or CFI, neither of them are.
3. The flight trainer and examiner cannot be one and the same person ;.)
4. If the flight is to be conducted in Ireland the aircraft must be on an FTO approval Cert, does not exist.
5. There must be an insurance cert for the aircraft which approves it for test by an examiner.

AW was also the Head of the sales team for PTC Cambridge and was part of the assessment team that went on trips to the middle east.

In relation to Mr Robertson being a Captain, he was, but of the Wexford lifeboat. Worked for the RNLI for many years and very experienced sailor. He did complete the ATPL theory but did not go beyond the CPL.

I would ask though that distance between ME and his lack lustre team and those in the training departments both in Florida and Waterford be made.
Every effort was made to train students to a high standard so that jobs in the business were a possibility. It was unfortunately the training departments that ended up trying to cope with the collateral damge left in ME's wake. The company as it was run was a true democracy and all persons with experience were listened to NEVER!

The company was more of a sales and marketing business or IT business that did a bit of pilot training on the side. Had to check the sign on the door a couple of times to make sure we were in the right place.

[BravoSierraKilo]

Is it just me or does anyone have that 'sinking feeling' :p

[McNulty]

He got a basic cpl, never got an meir and therefore never attained a frozen atpl. He was regarded as a very incompetent student. He most certainly never flew for monarch thats the biggest joke I've ever heard.

These conmen need to be chased out of aviation, they are a cancer and the result of their crooked existence is stories like all the ptc students that lost their money and their futures.

Keep up the good work pilotbear.

[redbull21]

Mark started the Zero to Hero course with PTC which entails sitting the ATPL theory course and exams 1st, at the time he did the course there was only modular self study offered by PTC so he did go on to pass those exams, then went out and flew in Florida with PTC before returning to start CPL training at Waterford, which is where he encountered his problems with not being able to manage a single pilot operation to the demanding levels of he CPL.

So, yes he achieved passes in the 14 ATPL theory exams and eventually got a SE CPL, but that is it.

NO ME, NO IR, NO MCC, NO JOC and certainly no real jet/turboprop time with any airline.

[a higher plane]

Careful tennisten that you don't start throwing rocks in the aviation greenhouse.

;)

[GrummanSk]

Sex Addicts, Fake Pilots, Robbery & Fraud,

If I made a film about this, Id make a fortune!


Don't get the script ready yet Warrior 2.

I believe a film like that has been made already. "Catch me if you can."

Steven Spielberg already made the fortune on that story.

Could it be possible this is where Edgeworth got his inspiration! :L

It's a real shame tho what happened. I foolsly went for an assessment with PTC, had a deposit paid but backed out around april after months of trying to get my deposit back which luckily I did. Someone was looking down on me.

Would believe the things I hear about Dana and Mark felt something wasnt right with those two on day of assessment.

[Matrix12]

From Thursday, 18 October 2012 Dáil Éireann Debate

Dail Eireann (http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2012101800041?opendocument)

Clearsky Pilot Training (http://www.whois.net/whois/clearskypilottraining.com)

Pilot Training College
7. Deputy John Browne asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the reason for his non-intervention in the events involving the students at the Pilot Training College in Waterford; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45168/12]

77. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the steps he is taking to help the people who were let down by the pilot training college having paid large tuition fees. [45131/12]

Deputy Leo Varadkar: I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 77 together.

These questions relate to the situation at the Pilot Training College, PTC. This issue arose from the failure of PTC, a privately-owned and operated flight training school, to meet its contractual obligations to its students for the completion of their training.

The Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, has responsibility for approving and overseeing flight training organisations. Its primary functions in this regard are oversight of the safety, quality and standard of the training being delivered and the conduct of examinations and flight tests. It considers issues such as whether the company has sufficient resources to safely provide the training required to the internationally determined standards. It had no involvement in, or responsibility for, the contractual arrangements between PTC and its students. The IAA's role is based on European rules. PTC is not, unfortunately, an isolated example. There have been similar failures in other countries in the recent past in respect of which the students involved also suffered losses. Unfortunately, many businesses have, in the current economic climate, failed, leaving their suppliers and customers out of pocket, including businesses in respect of which a State body has a regulatory role.

In July, the High Court appointed an examiner to PTC Ireland. The IAA worked with the examiner to assess the options available but unfortunately on 28 September the court ordered the company's liquidation after a final potential investor withdrew. While I sympathise with the students and their families, many of whom have suffered considerable financial losses through this company's collapse , neither the Government nor the IAA, have any liability in this regard. The Irish taxpayer cannot be liable for a company’s debts simply because it had approval of some form from a State agency.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank the Minister for his reply, although the information provided does not give any comfort to the parents and students who find themselves with an enormous financial burden.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Timmy Dooley: ] I refer to young people who accepted a place with the PTC in the belief that it had the backing of the State, not just in terms of the regulatory role of the Irish Aviation Authority. The Minister said that, as part of the authority's remit, it would have to determine whether the PTC had sufficient resources to provide training. One wonders whether it was possible at the outset to establish whether there were sufficient resources to ensure the training of potential pilots.

In recent weeks, it has been reported in public that another training company has been established in Waterford. It has a very similar name, Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited. From company records, it appears to have a set of directors similar to that of its predecessor. This is of particular concern to the parents. Will the company seek to be recognised by the Irish Aviation Authority? If so, will the authority be compelled to provide it with the necessary credentials provided that it is technically able to provide training to prospective pilots? Will there be capacity in this instance to deal with the issue of providing sufficient resources?

From a couple of perspectives, we need more clarity. We need to know whether the law is strong enough to protect against the phoenix-like emergence of a new company. Without more evidence, I do not want to repeat some of the allegations that have been made about the stripping of assets and resources of one company in order to provide for the establishment of another. This would be very serious if it were true. Does the Irish Aviation Authority have appropriate investigative powers and other appropriate powers to prevent what I described from happening?

Deputy Leo Varadkar: There are a few relevant points. PTC's accounts were signed off, without qualification, on 29 August 2011 by professional auditors. The accountants were satisfied that "the group, including PTC, will continue as a going concern" and they stated the directors are satisfied that sufficient financial resources are available to the group from its budgeted profits, banks and shareholders. The Irish Aviation Authority reviewed the company's financial projections for 2011-13 and its projected profits for each year to the end of 2013. As recently as early June 2012, the authority met PTC's CEO, who assured it that the company had sufficient funding in place until at least the end of 2012. It is worth pointing out in this regard that, had the authority come to a decision that the college did not have sufficient resources – there is no evidence to suggest it – the only action open to it would have been to de-recognise the college and require it to cease trading. Therefore, those affected would be in exactly the same position as they are now. The problem would simply have arisen a few weeks earlier.

A Government regulation is not the same as a bond or guarantee. If an airline or travel agent fails, customers are protected because of the bond. There is no bonding system in these circumstances. Perhaps we need to consider this. We cannot make provision retrospectively.

As with me, I am sure the Deputy has constituents who have been burned by this problem. We all have considerable sympathy for those affected. In some cases, they are losing a lot of money because of what has happened. One should bear in mind that they are not the only creditors. If the Government were to decide suddenly to compensate the creditors, including the very large number of foreign students, airlines and the business in Florida, it would have to compensate them all on the same basis. This would cost the taxpayer millions of euro in this case alone and set a very significant precedent for future cases. Ultimately, I have no money. The only money I have is money that belongs to the taxpayer. It would be irresponsible of me to offer compensation in this case or any similar case.

Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited has been established and registered at the same address as PTC. Following the reports, the Irish Aviation Authority inspected the premises of the company on 4 October last. The new company was providing refresher training for an international non-EU client. The training does not meet the standard required for an Irish or EU pilot licence. Should the new entity wish to provide training meeting EU standards, it, like any other company, will have to apply to the Irish Aviation Authority for approval. To date, the authority has not received any such application.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: The Irish Aviation Authority, a State organisation, granted the college a licence to operate. The authority was charged with ensuring the company had sufficient resources to provide training safely. The college never had the resources required for students to complete their courses. We now face a debacle in that a large number of people are left stranded abroad with huge debts. They are unable to complete their training and education. This comprises a considerable issue for them. We met many of them outside Leinster House and they told us stories about borrowing money and of their being up to their eyes in hock. It is just unacceptable.

To what extent did the Irish Aviation Authority scrutinise PTC when it decided to grant it a licence? There is an onus on the State to address this because the authority is a State institution that needs to be made accountable for what happened.

Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is important to state nobody has been stranded abroad.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: They were.

Deputy Leo Varadkar: They were but they subsequently came home themselves or were repatriated at the expense of the Irish Aviation Authority on a no-prejudice basis, or on humanitarian grounds. I do not have the exact figures in front of me but I am informed that most of the trainees have resumed their training. Arrangements have been put in place in other colleges to allow the trainees to pay in instalments so they will not have to borrow large sums of money upfront. In addition, the Irish Aviation Authority made sure it got its hands on the trainees' records so training done to date will be recognised. There was a case previously in which this did not happen. Assistance was provided in so far as this was possible.

The PTC was audited by independent accountants and no issue arose in respect of the audit. Any inspections or reviews of the financial protections carried out by the Irish Aviation Authority showed the college had sufficient resources. Even if the authority had determined that the college did not have sufficient resources, all it could have done would have been to remove its licence. With the exception of a small number of people who paid fees in the weeks just before the college closed, everyone is in the exact same position. This would have been the case even if the Irish Aviation Authority had determined that there were insufficient resources.

As I stated, a licence is not a bond or guarantee. Perhaps there should be a bond, and we will examine this. A bond will come at a cost, and that cost will have to fall on the trainees.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The Ceann Comhairle was kind enough to allow me to raise a Topical Issue on this subject but, thanks to a mess-up in my office, I missed the debate. I apologise and appreciate the opportunity to raise the matter again.

The Minister referred to professional audits and qualified accountants. However, if he reads excerpts from the report, he will note it states the negative capital and reserves of the company were almost €2.2 million underwater as of 31 December 2010. It also states: "These conditions indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern." Furthermore, it states: "The financial statements do not include any adjustments that would result if the Company was unable to continue as a going concern." The latter is repeated twice. These three statements raise serious concerns that should have stood out significantly.

The Irish Aviation Authority, a State agency with regulatory responsibility, gave the college a clean bill of health. Enterprise Ireland, a semi-State body, granted €400,000 to the college on top of an earlier grant of €8,000..

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: ] It could be any Irish family but we are focused here on our constituents who spent their life savings so their children could meet their ambitions.

The full imprimatur of both the Irish Aviation Authority and Enterprise Ireland had been given to this company even though it is clear from its accounts that it was in serious difficulty. Families now hear about companies like Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited and the Shemburn Group, which allow the same directors to start again and possibly get a licence. Where is the justice in this? I know the Minister has met the families and knows the issue very well but I appeal to him to reconsider. The Irish Aviation Authority will be appearing before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications next Wednesday morning. I ask the Minister to look at the transcript of that meeting afterwards. I appeal to him to reconsider because this is very unfair to dozens of Irish families who face serious hardship. I admire the Minister's approach to many of these matters so I ask him to reconsider with more information.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Dooley may ask a quick supplementary question.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Deputy Mac Lochlainn has covered the two issues I had in mind, which related to Enterprise Ireland and the audit committee. Has the Minister considered referring any report that either he or the Irish Aviation Authority might have produced to the Director of Corporate Enforcement? It seems that if there is a phoenix company-type situation arising in respect of a new company, there is certainly a requirement to refer the matter to Director of Corporate Enforcement.

Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is possible to read sections of accounts but, ultimately, the finding of the auditors was that it was a going concern and would continue as such. If it is the view that the Irish Aviation Authority somehow failed in its duties, it is open to the people concerned to take legal action against the authority. It is then, ultimately, for the courts to decide if that is the case. Based on its own advice, the Irish Aviation Authority, which is the statutory body responsible for this matter and not my Department, is confident that it was not negligent in any way.

The issue of phoenix companies causes huge anger and frustration but there is a reason why we have limited companies. If an honest businessperson has two businesses and one of them fails, it would not be right to allow the business that failed to bring down the good business. This is why we have limited liability - so that the failure of one business does not bring down other businesses.

I do not know if there are any issues here for the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement but if there are, I would expect the Irish Aviation Authority to make a referral to the relevant authorities. I am not aware of any referral.


Mike Edgeworth Fraud (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg)

[Matrix12]

One would ask the question why he was not been shut down by the IAA for the training being conducted there recently?? Are the IAA afraid of him? Is it not within the jurisdiction of the body that regulates aviation in Ireland? So many unanswered questions here... Whats going on?

[Irelander]

The issue of phoenix companies causes huge anger and frustration but there is a reason why we have limited companies. If an honest businessperson has two businesses and one of them fails, it would not be right to allow the business that failed to bring down the good business. This is why we have limited liability - so that the failure of one business does not bring down other businesses.

Is this someone's idea of a joke?

Limited liability is not a ticket to commit scumbag criminality with impunity.
Edgeworth's thievery has dumped a lot of folks in a sea of grief and the money he stole is still unaccounted for.

Not so many years ago an Irish court threw a woman into the slammer for stealing food to keep herself alive for the day - but this grabbing slimeball not only escapes prosecution but is awarded with tacit government approval to spend the money he stole on a shiny new criminal venture !!!

Ireland sure provides the best justice that money can buy :yuk::yuk::yuk:

WTF IS GOING ON?

[pilotbear]

More rumours and allegations and Public record
So Edgeworthless has applied to the UK CAA for approvals to train at Waterford. I believe the IAA has to ok this also so lets see what occurs. Edgeworthless's new Partner AW is an IAA guy so lets see if it all continues.

It is rumoured that he is being financed by his partner in crime and home the ex..Global Sales Training Manageress. (LOL) So now we know who has the Students money.

Waterford Airport say they wont do business with them but I believe there are shared board members with Shemburn so lets see on that one as the big news which is also public record if you look is Edgeworth is doing assessments for training for SAA using to same g/f rooms as PTC at Waterford Airport!
Obviously SAA haven't been educated on all the scandal yet:E
I certainly wouldn't condone anyone sending a link or documentation from Florida to SAA management or to the UK CAA standards department at Gatwick, that would be an Edgeworthless tactic:=
It appears some assets seem to be floating around in the name of Edgeworth also transferred just prior to the fall. EI-SKD and the FNPTT2 sim plus some machinery for the farm? supposed to have been for the ramp.

[ollie1997]

You don't say??? Tell us more please!:ugh:

[Matrix12]

More rumours and allegations and Public record
So Edgeworthless has applied to the UK CAA ..... :D

PB... This is the type of information that the public need to be hearing about the carry on that has gone on. In fact im pretty sure this is material for the fraud squad and financial regulator.

The truth always comes out in the end.....

[alan-wrigley]

Let's put this nonsense to rest. I do not need to hide behind an alias because I have nothing to hide and will only tell the truth. I was the CFI at PTC about nine years ago for a period of seven months. Mike Jones was one of my staff instructors. Since that time I have had very little involvement with PTC. I have assisted with some independent interviewing and assessments of candidates for various schools, one of which was PTC. I have revalidated ratings for various pilots, some of whom have worked for PTC, including Mike Edgeworth and Mike Jones. That is what independent examiners do. I am not an IAA examiner and have not been for many years.

I have no axe to grind in this matter and no wish to be involved in the squabbles. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who has lost money with PTC, Cabair or any of the many other providers who have gone bust over the years. But I have no knowledge of any scams at any of these establishments.

I have recently joined AFT as CFI. To the best of my knowledge this school has no links with any other school. In my view as a very experienced instructor and examiner I believe that AFT offers a good service to its trainees. The company has some well qualified instructors and a good pass rate. What else does one need? There are no scams, cons or anything untoward to the best of my knowledge. If I knew of anything I would not be here because I value my reputation.

Now, is there anything else any of you would like to know? If you want to make direct contact with me please email or telephone me. You have my details already.

[mad_jock]

But I have no knowledge of any scams at any of these establishments.

To be honest the CFI never does until its to late.

And your sales team is using the boeing report to punt out that there is going to be a pilot shortage. Which we all know is a load of rubbish.

That same sales team was the one that had a advertising standards ruling against them while working at PTC. Unfortunately for you the PTC thing is like a cows bum in spring with brown stuff sticking to it never mind what ever direction the cow turns.

[a higher plane]

I am aware that the IAA know that ME has tried to resurrect approvals that were for PTC Cambridge with the CAA. The IAA have been in contact with the CAA and are very much aware of the situation.

As for Waterford airport I have it on good authority , no pun intended, that they do not want to linked with any more of ME's antics. They are happy to accept rent for hangarage and aircraft parking but the clock is even ticking on this.

The IAA tribunal was today anyone got info yet?

[Matrix12]

Irish Times Today (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1024/breaking27.html)

Breaking News from the Oireachtas (http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/name-13205-en.html)

The collapse of the Waterford based Pilot Training College which went into liquidation after trainees and their families paid €5.5million in fees (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0718/trainee-pilots.html#video), is to be investigated by a committee of the Dáil and Seanad.

The decision to investigate was taken today after the Oireachtas Transport Committee heard from chief executive of the Irish Aviation Authority Eamonn Brennan that the directors (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) of the college had “run for the hills”.

The authority's director of safety regulation Kevin Humphreys said the directors had been effectively operating “a ponzi scheme (http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-07-02/bg-image2.jpg)”.

The committee also heard criticism of the college's accountants and auditors and the investigation is to consider whether to report these firms to their regulatory bodies.

A number of trainee pilots – part of a group of up to 350 pilots - who were left stranded in Florida when the college collapsed, were in the committee’s public gallery today to hear acting chairman Patrick O’Donovan say the investigation would be “full and forensic”.

A number of committee members complained that fees had continued to be taken from trainees in the months before the Florida Institute of Technology ended its deal with the Waterford based college over non payment of bills.

The Committee also heard calls for the actions of the college directors to be referred to the director of corporate enforcement. Joe McHugh TD said the college’s accountants (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/14/449/67) and auditors appeared to have given the school a clean bill of health when there were serious difficulties (http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/309215_4653836589010_1153658668_n.jpg).

In a further move the committee said its investigation would cover whether the Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar should make a once-off offer of alternative training or compensation to the students involved.

Mr Brennan said the authority had done everything it could do, as it was a safety regulator and not the financial regulator. He said he would welcome an investigation by the director of corporate enforcement, and remarked that the directors of the Pilot Training College had not answered questions from the authority or the student’s families about the financial crisis at the business.

He said he understood a new company, Clearsky (http://www.whois.net/whois/clearskypilottraining.com), had been incorporated in recent months by the principals of the Pilot Training College but it had not sought any approvals for the aviation authority.

Mr Humphreys said the lessons from a similar collapse in Co Cork in the 1980s had not been learned.

Speaking ahead of today's hearing, Brian and Martina Kealy of the Pilot Training College Action Group said many individuals and families had paid sums of about €80,000 each in the nine months before the college went into liquidation.

They have been told the company has no funds to repay the fees they paid for a course taught in the US.

Ms Kealy said the group maintained there were difficulties with the oversight of the Pilot Training College accounts by the IAA. She said they also took issue with the assertion by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar to the effect that accountants had been “satisfied” the college would continue as a going concern.

Ms Kealy said Mr Varadkar could "not evade these truths", adding that “justice must be done”.

[Matrix12]

IAA: Pilot college financing like a Ponzi scheme
Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1025/world/iaa-pilot-college-financing-like-a-ponzi-scheme-211915.html)
By Claire O’Sullivan
Thursday, October 25, 2012

The Irish Aviation Authority has likened the financing of the ill-fated Pilot Training College in Waterford to a Ponzi scheme, and said the director of corporate enforcement should investigate the company’s collapse.

The authority’s director of safety regulation, Kevin Humphreys, yesterday told the Oireachtas transport committee the "absence of cadet sponsorship by airlines" has meant private pilot training is "open to this kind of abuse, that is operating as a Ponzi scheme (http://reportyourex.com/ex-report/neil-dana-davies-york-near-pocklington-2/)", as huge injections of finance were regularly required to ensure quality training.

He lamented the lack of airline-sponsored cadetships, such as those previously offered by Aer Lingus and the air corps, describing it as "a lacuna".

IAA chief executive Eamonn Brennan was criticised by TDs and senators, who accused the body of failing to better regulate the school, but the IAA refused to take the blame, saying it is only responsible for safety regulation and that questions on the financing of the company should "go to the director of corporate enforcement".

Senator Denis O’Donovan took aim at Transport Minister Leo Varadkar for his failure "to take control" in the past four months and "find out where the buck lies".

It was agreed that a committee of the Dáil and Seanad will undertake a "full and forensic" investigation of the collapse of the college, which left up to 190 private and partially sponsored students out of pocket by up to €5.5m.

Mr Brennan said the directors (http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-07-02/bg-image2.jpg) of the company should be brought before the committee. "The one people not being called to account are the directors (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) of this company," he said. "The minute this happened, they headed for the hills (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pilot-college-boss-wont-say-where-85k-per-student-went-3159264.html). We could not contact them. They have not been held to account (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) and we are going around in circles here with the department and IAA."

Fine Gael TD Joe O’Reilly was sharply critical of the college going into liquidation on Oct 2, and then a day later, its chief executive (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) and directors (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/14/449/67) setting up another aviation company, Clearsky (http://www.whois.net/whois/clearskypilottraining.com).

"It was the reincarnation of a sick, old animal," he said.

Mr Brennan said the IAA will "keep Clearsky under observation (http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Clearsky-Pilot-Training-College-Limited-518376)".

The IAA and the department were repeatedly criticised for failing to reimburse and compensate students (https://www.facebook.com/SupportPtcCashStrappedPilotsCrisis).

Mr Humphreys defended the IAA’s actions, saying it sent inspectors to Florida (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0706/enterprise-irelands-investment-in-pilot-centre.html) when the course first collapsed, repatriated trainee pilots, seized their training records from the college, and helped students out in any way it could.

He said inspectors also met with Weston National Flight Centre and Atlantic Flight Training Academy in Cork to develop packages to assist former trainees of the Waterford college.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Thursday, October 25, 2012

[Matrix12]

Pilot Training College (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/pilot-training-college-hopelessly-insolvent-after-proposed-investor-pulls-out-3243631.html)

440000 Euros of Irish Taxpayers money wasted (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ojojidauidsn/)

Pie in the Sky (http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/Publications/The-Market/December-January-2012-The-Market.pdf)

Fraud (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-fraud-squad-considers-probe-into-pilot-training-college-203676.html):=

PTC gets the boot (http://avstop.com/july_2012/student_pilots_from_ireland_attending_florida_institute_of_t echnology_get_the_boot.htm)



Clearsky Pilot Training (http://www.whois.com/whois/clearskypilottraining.com)

Mike Edgeworth (https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c38.0.403.403/p403x403/316857_4650952076899_1101087081_n.jpg):=
Sinead O Marcaigh (http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-07-02/bg-image2.jpg):=
Diarmuid Maher (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/14/449/67):=

From across Ireland, Europe, USA, Kazakhstan and so many more..... families, students, creditors, businesses governments want answers to what has being going on here. Enough is enough. This is a call for the Irish Government to show once and for all that people like this will not be tolerated in Ireland, and that these people will be perused with the weight of a country in tracking them down. Our Reputation as a sovereign state rides on how you deal with this.

To the Irish Government: This is your opportunity right now, to investigate this matter to the depths of its core. This is your opportunity find the truth. Its time you told us what's going on.

[pilotbear]

One man, his bitch and his lone sheep will not get anywhere. I imagine that every airline, training department, CEO, Chief pilot in the world will have this information over the next few weeks.
It would be very sad if students with Clearsky on their CV found it difficult to get interviews with this baggage attached, go elsewhere. There are reputable companies if you do your research. Keep away from anyone associated with PTC.
They still have your money, they paid themselves salaries for several positions at the same time, Edgeworthless was taking salaries of up to 100k a month with his family.
Don't bend over in the shower Mike, there are many, many who are waiting to oblige. S OM you have nothing to worry about:E
MATRIX, you are correct. Edgeworthless and his family are a disgrace and an embarrassment to the great Irish Nation and the IAA denying responsibility for the finance is a lie. They have to agree that the company has the financial integrity to operate.
The Faithlegg Country Club guest book will tell a few tales.
Unfortunately, the nation won't see an investigation because there is deep seated corruption there with Edgeworth going back many, many years. Everyone knows it. He did the same in Florida didn't he DM?


Of course this is all rumour and I cannot condone any of the suggestions above:E:E

I also agree the Directors/Shareholders need to be brought to book. They knew exactly what was going on. Edgeworthless broke the Directors/Shareholders accounting agreements over 18 months ago and they did NOTHING. They can be contacted if you know where to look;)

oh well back to real life at FL470

[pilotbear]

And as for AFT, while the PTC sales guys are there, the posts will continue. Make your choices wisely my old friend.
I must emphasise that this not reflection on training standards at AFT as with AW at the helm the training standard will be good provided the recent real life Airline Captain knowledge and experience is integrated into the training and the 2000 hrs in the circuit instructor mentality that we see in most companies is backed off.
Just do not believe that anyone can get you an interview or a job. ONLY you can do that and do not pay the full price and DO not pay up front. There is no requirement whatsoever to do this. Monitor flight for cost and check your bills thoroughly. Remember the sales guys are only interested in your signature not your career, make them work for it.

[mmatalla]

Dear All;

Mark Roberston is not a member of our staff.

The Boeing study is real and credible, and being quoted by everyone in the industry. The Airbus study says the same, and yes we use them for our sales presentations.

We do not ask anyone to pay upfront. We take a deposit, and 4 additional installements throughout the training, just like all FTO's. Some of the Cabair cadets asked for a pay-as-you-go arrangement and we gladly agreed in view of what they had gone through.

We would welcome a third party audit of our accounts - we have nothing to hide.

[mad_jock]

The Boeing study is real and credible, and being quoted by everyone in the industry

Not everyone and if you use it in the UK you may fall foul of the advertising standards.


And it sounds like you have been suckered in as well by it.

[MCDU2]

We do not ask anyone to pay upfront. We take a deposit, and 4 additional installements throughout the training, just like all FTO's.

That is :mad: Not all FTOs require payment in that manner. I trained many moons ago at a small school in Bournemouth and each Friday afternoon we got a detailed statement for that weeks flying. As a student I was required to pay that off there and then in full and keep my account in credit (by how much was up to me but as a goodwill gesture I left around £500 in there). I paid by credit card and had the full protection from VISA as a back up.

The school was happy as they were getting paid weekly. Most of their expenses such as wages, airport charges and fuel were settled monthly so the school was never out of pocket.

Any other payment means are effectively a ponzi in disguise. Hence why we keep banging on and telling people not to pay upfront.

[stuckgear]

Marwan,

And it sounds like you have been suckered in as well by it.

indeed it does. Boeing and Airbus object is to manufacture and sell aircraft, not operate them.. such 'studies' are not impartial and more of a vehicle for their own purposes, including that of bolstering shareholder perceptions of future stock value.

hence it is disingenuous for such partisan studies to be used out of context in the promotion of flight training services.

there are as many 'investors', maybe even more so, that have been screwed over on glossy presentations on the money to be made in aviation as there are 'wannabes' that have left high and dry.

[mmatalla]

I stand corrected. AFT's billing methods are similar to many, but not all, FTO's. There is no ponzi scheme, and we have been in business for many years, and plan to continue that way.

Your views on the Boeing and airbus studies are noted, although I respectfully disagree, and there is no point in arguing as this is a subjective matter.

If there are any serious questions, I am happy to take them.

[mad_jock]

Its not my view its the advertising standards authority have already found against a training provider for using them to say there is going to be a shortage of pilots.

Dreaming of becoming a pilot? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DyZxahxMD2Q)

And a bet you don't show them this either.

[mmatalla]

Dear Mad-Jock;

I saw the video from BALPA and it is a very good one. The five key messages are:


Think carefully – do your research.
BALPA is not prepared to see this practice by airlines continue
Authority – wake up
Employers – join us
Support BALPA
I think it's a noble message and I agree with it. I don't understand your point though. Is it hard to get a job now? yes. Is this going to continue forever? of course not. Economies move in cycles.

It's hard to get a job anywhere these days. Does that mean colleges should tell students to STOP getting an education?

I really don't understand your issue. I am trying to be objective but you seem adamant on proving that we are doing things wrong. I invited you to attend one of our seminars. You are still welcome to.

[mmatalla]

Dear G-RICH;

Thank you for your comments. Every company has it's own payment terms, and if other FTO's have an "end of the day" payment system, that is their prorogative. We have ours and it works, and has been for years. We are still in business, and we have not taken any money from anyone and not provided the training, and we never will. In fact, when Coventry Airport closed, we injected money into AFT for 6 months just to keep it going. We could have easily taken the route of closing AFT down, bt we didn't. We are in this business for the long term.

I will investigate your story, but we are definitely interested in UK students. In fact, we have 6 signed up, 2 of whom are already in training in Aqaba. I would be happy to provide you with their contact details, with their permission, for a reference.

I will be in Coventry next week, albeit not armed with a broom and a luger, and you are welcome to visit and provide us with any constructive critism to help us improve the Academy.

[mad_jock]

no thanks if you are using the boeing reports I can already guess your style of sales pitch.

Why not get an advertising standards officer to go to one and see if your contravening truthfullness. Oh your sales team were the one's that fell foul of that when they worked at PTC.

[mmatalla]

Mad-Jock;

I just emailed the lawyer to check; thank you.

[mmatalla]

Dear G-RICH;

I am in Coventry November 8 and 9.

Trust me, no one at AFT holds back for fear of consequences. I have a group of people that I am very proud of, and who leave no doubt that they disagree with me when they do.

Nonetheless, I thank you for your constructive thoughts. I will dicuss them with the team while in Coventry.

[stuckgear]

Marwan,

I have to say, so far it's been encouraging that you have engaged with people directly and taken action on certain aspects.

Additionally, the sense of humour (broom and luger) was appreciated.

[Matrix12]

In the Oireachtas Last Thursday, when they discussed The Pilot college (http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/309215_4653836589010_1153658668_n.jpg) financing like a Ponzi scheme, it was said that the committee also heard criticism of the college's accountants (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/14/449/67) and auditors (www.cooneycarey.ie) and the investigation is to consider whether to report these firms to their regulatory bodies.

It can now be revealed that the accountant and CFO of Pilot Training College (Diarmuid Maher (http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/diarmuid-maher/14/449/67)) is now a director of Clearsky Pilot Training College (http://www.whois.com/whois/clearskypilottraining.com) and is being guided by Mike Edgeworth (http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380041_4653913190925_1655498432_n.jpg) of the Now liquidated Pilot Training College. "Clear Skies Ahead (http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/Publications/The-Market/December-January-2012-The-Market.pdf)" Mike Edgeworth reveals back in January 2012 according to this article.(page14):D

The financial auditor who gave PTC a clean bill of health was Cooney Carey (www.cooneycarey.ie).


The Irish People are asking questions about whats been going on here Mike Edgeworth, Diarmuid Maher, and Cooney Carey. Its time you gave us answers to these questions.

Prof Kieran Byrne ex WIT President (http://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-college-expenses-579425-Aug2012/) also joined the PTC Ranks in 2011-2012.

www.clearskypilottraining.com (http://www.whois.com/whois/clearskypilottraining.com)

Domain Name: CLEARSKYPILOTTRAINING.COM

Registrant:
Mike Edgeworth ([email protected])
Pilot Trianing College
Waterford Airport
Co. Waterford
IE

[stuckgear]

Matrix12,

unfortunately Ireland is currently littered with the evidence in the form of great empty edifices to the 'Celtic tiger' [sic] and the financial boom [sic] otherwise known as 'cheap credit', where the whole economy was great bloody ponzi scheme, money was thrown about like nothing, vast excesses ignored because it was all 'on credit' with the expectation that there would be more tomorrow.

Smoke and mirrors.

The inception of clearsky from the ashes of PTC is just an attempt to perpetuate the excesses at other people's expense the very lifestyles that showed the 'financial boom' for what it was.. a 'credit boom'.

It's no great surprise that the same names skirt around looking to get their hands in other peoples pockets while shirking the very obligations that they sought.

it is indeed rotten, rotten to the core, but the whole issue is considerably deeper. It would be a change to see the Irish Government address itself, but that would require the potential to lose out on having their nose in the taxpayer/EU trough while shackling the people of Ireland to the gutter where they can observe their elected masters and their cohorts getting fat.

it really is an abject disgrace. and I for one applaud the likes of pilotbear's activities in attempting to bring this under the spotlight.

[Matrix12]

The Waterford Pilot Training College which left hundreds of trainee pilots stranded in Florida after taking up to €80,000 in tuition fees from them is being investigated by the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement (ODCE).
A complaint concerning breaches of company law by Waterford Pilot Training College (PTC) was referred to the ODCE, according to the Department of Transport last night.

The ODCE is not allowed to reveal the identity of complainants and last night the Department of Transport said they did not have any further details about the referral.

More Here (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/watchdog-probes-pilot-training-college-as-complaint-made-212033.html)

[a higher plane]

I hear the spending hasn't stopped since clear sky became official. After a lovely tour of the middle east , supposedly a sales trip. Christmas has come early and the edgeworths have all gone on a holiday to Italy to celebrate. Allegedly.
:hmm:

[a320--]

I came across a picture from this weekend gone of PTC with three Garda (Police) vehicles outside the premises. Maybe Clearsky has been brought to a halt?!

[a320--]

Just found out that the reason the cop cars were there was because there was a drugs farm discovered next door to the college. More gangsters uncovered!

I am unable to upload the picture, it was emailed to me and I need a link to upload a pic on this.

[pilotbear]

yes, it is sad when an icon seems to turn out bad eh?

On a lighter note seems DD has an emergency meeting to rally the troops, well the ones stupid enough to listen anyway.
The net closes Neil......just resign and go back to conning little old ladies that they need a new bathroom, or girls on dating sites that your are an Airline pilot who lost his medical.

[PURPLE PITOT]

You should hear the radio advert that AFT have got in the midlands at the moment.

Truly cringeworthy!

[exaft]

Marwan

How can you say that no-one at AFT holds back for fear of the consequences? Almost all of the staff been forced out since Dana Davies took over as COO.

Doesn't that tell you that something is seriously wrong?

[a320--]

Word on the street, Clearsky PTC is in full swing.

They currently have 4 Libyan students, Mr. Edgeworth himself is walking around the place not even the slightest bit ashamed of what he done.

Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited - Irish Company Info (http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Clearsky-Pilot-Training-College-Limited-518376)

Whois clearskypilottraining.com (http://www.whois.com/whois/clearskypilottraining.com)


If I was one of the students who was robbed of money I would be heading straight for Waterford demanding one of the many houses he owns in the City.

[pilotbear]

Time to check on the legitimacy of the visas I believe, I wonder who issued the training visas or are they on visitor visas?
They would have to be sponsored by the training organisation and I do not believe Clearsky has been up and running long enough for that so....
Someone needs to ask the irish immigration authority to check then.....or will you all just stand by and bitch about it?
Or just a call to the local Garda to check the students status, if they are not legal then Edgeworthless will be prosecuted under the prevention of Terrorism act and will be gone for good.

[Halfwayback]

This thread was initially very useful for those that found themselves in a dilemma after PTC closed up but it has inevitably become a magnet for those with a grudge

Name calling has become wide-spread and this is not permitted within Pprune so I think this thread has run its course and is now closed.

HWB

[PPRuNe Towers]

But I will open it again if people get in touch with substantive news or disclosures.

Rob