SNP propose 7 Airbases for Scotland post Independence

[Hummingfrog]

On the Big Debate on Scottish TV last night Nicola Sturgeon, Deputy Leader of the SNP, answered a question on Defence post independence and said that Scotland can be compared to Norway and will have a similar capability. She said Norway had 7 airbases and by inference suggested that was what Scotland would have.:ok:

Nominations for the bases - Looks like Ex RAF Machrihanish was a snip at £1, perhaps it was bought by a SNP sleeper!!;)

HF

[Lima Juliet]

I'd vote for:

Glenforsa (Isle of Mull)
Strathaven
East Lochlane Farm
Hatton
Viewfield
Knockbain Farm
Feshiebridge

and the Free-Scottish Air Force shoukd operate their last great aircraft - the Scottish Aviation Bulldog!

LJ

:ok:

[Doctor Cruces]

Yeah, but what are they gonna operate after we take all our assets out?

[bingofuel]

Buy up some old Hunters, and create a volunteer Scottish Air Force reserve!
Where can I apply!!

[renfrew]

Remember we get our 8 or 9% of military assets at the break up.

[petetheplane]

All splendid Scottish choices, of course, and magnificent venues for the incipient Free Scottish Air Force. However, you do appear have omitted RAF Twatt (Orkney).

[Talk Split]

Not when the Scottish Regiments are taken as a cost saving measure when Army2020 reports in 2 weeks...

[Jayand]

Think you are trying too hard to make that fit.
She never said Scotland would have anything like 7 bases, merely mentioned Norway's number purely as an example.
Along with everything else last night the SNP were unclear and or unable to give the audience any facts about what they would actually do.
Pure idealogical, selfish Nationalistic claptrap.
Clouds and Cuckoo's spring to mind!

[Melchett01]

Remember we get our 8 or 9% of military assets at the break up.

And how to you plan on funding, resourcing and maintaining them? If Scotland wants to go it alone, then go it alone means just that. Not go it alone apart from X, Y and Z which London can stump up for. And that includes defence.

[renfrew]

On OECD GDP figures UK ranks about 16.
Scotland will rank about 6 and will be able to afford to defend itself.

[Jayand]

Yeah of course it can! Is that in the Euro or not? If it stillexists.
If you think oil will pay for it all then your mistaken, Norway so often used as an example of how the SNP will do business made a decision forty years ago when the North Sea oil boom began to take a 51% controlling stake in their oil and have been investing the profits heavily into their country ever since.
Scotland is forty years too late and can't now catch up.

[Wander00]

Wot's that - 7 bases, one airframe a base!

[occhips]

And to think you will need the euro to pay for all of this :p winner :ok:

[NutLoose]

I have a cunning plan, we can sell them Simulators, ideal for RScotAF Kinloss, as they be Nimrods

BidSpotter.co.uk" - Lot Find (http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/forms/InventoryLotFind.php?search_text=Nimrod&querytype=and&auctiontype=0)

[Lima Juliet]

Renfrew

I think you have been reading too much tripe from the fat salmon with a d. The figures you quote are for "per capita GDP", which is way different to GDP, and guess who comes top of the list? Luxembourg!!! There's a massive air force there isn't there? (unless of course you count the NATO owned E3As with Luxembourg registrations!).

Norway comes 2nd in your list, followed by Switzerland...spot the common thread for using GDP per capita? Yes, small populations. The USA with it's massive industrial base and natural resources comes in 5th just ahead of Scotland.

LJ

[Melchett01]

You keep telling yourself that renfrew.

You might be surprised how quickly free prescriptions, no university fees, freezing council tax, real terms increases in health services and benefits associated with an unemployment rate that is currently the same as that for the whole of the UK all eat into your GDP.

You might be able to afford to maintain a few infantry battalions and a couple of light aircraft at the start, but do you really think you could sustain any credible capability over the long term - operating costs, programme sustainment, personnel costs and recruitment and capability replacements?

If you aren't part of NATO, you won't be able to claim for assistance there and I wouldn't bank on walking out of the UK and straight into the EU for assistance there either.

[labrador pup]

Wee Eck will only require 2 heavy lift transport aircraft in his air force, one for himself and one for his ego.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I order to be like Norway Scotland will have to raise tax. Lets compare to Norway - Beer £10 per pint ! That will go down well - not.


Aaron.

[chopabeefer]

Have I missed the point? Why does Scotland need an air force? Are there really foreign nations out there who covet midges, alcoholics and morbidly obese, grease eating lard monsters whose hobbies are sweating and fighting for breath?

Scotland arent deluded - they dont need to fear attack and they know it. It is beautiful, no doubt, but so is Siberia. Nobody clamouring to invade that.

Scotland is safe, unless the ad fab cast need more alcoholics to join them.

[NutLoose]

You would need to pay me more than £10 a pint to get me to drink Tennants.

[BEagle]

....morbidly obese, grease eating lard monsters whose hobbies are sweating and fighting for breath?

Is that just the Jockistani women?

The expensive irrelevance of the 'Scottish Parliament' is becoming a complete laughing stock. Time to tell Alexei that enough is enough, we don't mind your whisky, shortbread and kippers - but nonsenses such as Sco'ish independence, porridge, the wearing of kilts, haggis, 'old lang syne', tartan, the gibberish of Rab C Burns, deep-fried Mars bars, bagpipes and the SNP are nothing more than jokes intended to fleece tourists.

And the joke is now over!

[NutLoose]

I hope we spike the time gun on Edinburgh's castle before we pull out, we don't want them falling into another countries hands.

[Shack37]

Just popped in for a weekly sanity check and very encouraged to see the debate has not lowered in its intellectual level.

Long may it continue:ok:

[iRaven]

Maybe if Waste O'Space deep-fry some of their allegedly sh!te products then they'll make a sale post 2014?

http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/travels/Aus/MiscPics/FriedMars.jpg

[Widger]

RNAS Twatt if you don't mind. HMS Tern!

[Wensleydale]

Is VAT applied to hot Mars Bars? Perhaps there is a tax loophole that we could fill? :ok:

[Finningley Boy]

I think I'm starting to get the hang of pprune moral and political leaning, on this thread, plenty of down right rude remarks about the Scots (a component segment of the British population) because a Nationalist Political Party up there wants to give them the choice to opt out of the act of union (not a good idea anyway in my opinion), which was mutually agreed with the English in 1707 so that we became one.

Meanwhile, on the thread about Gay and Lesbian pride marches, not a single decipherable constructive critical comment is to be found, just lots of nice things?

FB

[Doctor Cruces]

Are the rest of the United Kingdom being given a referendum to see if we want to let Scotland go? As it impinges on ALL the UK, I would think that necessary before The Act of Union is dissolved.

For my money, I can't see the point and I can't see it happening.

Doc C

(Edited for splingz)

[tramps]

China has recently warned Australia about which side it wants to be on and that threat may have spurred the SNP into thinking about the future. So maybe they are planning to invite the ever friendly Chinese, or even the Russians, to the bases; in exchange, of course, for security against the Sassenachs!:E

[althenick]

RNAS Twatt if you don't mind. HMS Tern!

...A lthough if the McNazi's get there way it would be something like RScotMB Twatt!

FYI all other posters - Deep fried Mars bars were Invented in a Chippy in Brum and I have yet to see a Chippy up here that sells them.

Are the rest of the United Kingdom being given a referendum to see if we want to let Scotland go? As it impinges on ALL the UK, I would think that necessary before The Act of Union is dissolved.

Why? - Its a matter for the People who reside and are on the voters role in Scotland. Maybe the English should have a referendum on whether They'd like to stay in union with Scotland After all it was imposed upon them by a Scottish King - Something that the "Patriots" neglect to tell you when you hear their Drunken Rhetoric in the Boozers Here in Auld Reekie- W'nkers tae a Man and Woman!

[Wensleydale]

I have yet to see a Chippy up here that sells them.




I'd get your guide dog to sniff one out for you then.....

[VIProds]

Strange isn't it, every time I see about Scottish Independance, a lot of nastiness comes out. It is almost as though a raw nerve has been bitten through. I don't blame the Scot's for seeking independence if their closest Cousins treat them with such disregard & loathing.

You still expect the Scot's to sing the National Anthem which incedently, contains the words:

MAY SHE LIKE A TORRENT RUSH,
REBELIOUS SCOTS TO CRUSH,
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

Good one England, yet another of the many Countries that you have alienated because of your sheer arrorance & you still can't understand why we keep getting "nul point"" at the Eurovision Contest !

[Finningley Boy]

Quote:
RNAS Twatt if you don't mind. HMS Tern!
...A lthough if the McNazi's get there way it would be something like RScotMB Twatt!

FYI all other posters - Deep fried Mars bars were Invented in a Chippy in Brum and I have yet to see a Chippy up here that sells them.

Quote:
Are the rest of the United Kingdom being given a referendum to see if we want to let Scotland go? As it impinges on ALL the UK, I would think that necessary before The Act of Union is dissolved.
Why? - Its a matter for the People who reside and are on the voters role in Scotland. Maybe the English should have a referendum on whether They'd like to stay in union with Scotland After all it was imposed upon them by a Scottish King - Something that the "Patriots" neglect to tell you when you hear their Drunken Rhetoric in the Boozers Here in Auld Reekie- W'nkers tae a Man and Woman!

Well Said Althenick,

I can't wait for this stupid referendum to be over with, hopefully with the Scots having seen sense and rejected Wee Eck's Wee Empire proposal and can get back to just gurning about what goes on at Westminster no matter what, while the English can get back to clumsy patronising attempts to be nice, rather than open hostility because the Scots have had the brass neck to encourage wee eck!:ok:

FB:)

[OilCan]

BEagle

...are nothing more than jokes intended to fleece tourists.


...most of whom are English. :ok:

[Surplus]

VIProds,

I don't blame the Scot's for seeking independence if their closest Cousins treat them with such disregard & loathing.I spent a couple of decades in the far north of Scotland and found that plenty of locals would buy football shirts of any team who were playing England, in the hope they'd beat us, just so they could gloat. (The German flags were still in evidence on the A9 Inverness roundabout the next morning after the 5-1 drubbing the Germans got, I guess nobody wanted to be seen carrying them away.)

A lot of the banter was good natured, but equally, a lot wasn't.

You only have to see the pitched battles and bigotry at some of the 'Old Firm' sporting events to see the depth of hatred some sections of the population have for each other, never mind the Sassenachs.

I have Scottish friends who would rather die than wear a blue tee shirt and I'm sure the same can be said for the 'other' side.

If they want independance, I say give it to them and hopefully they can move on and so can the rest of the UK.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

The thing is, most of us 'Jockistanis' are content to receive Westminster subsidies that allow us to have free prescription, care for elderly, university education, passage over bridges etc that we would be unable to afford if we split from those in south Scotlandshire. Furthermore we have delighted in having Scots at the forefront of government and banking that have caused the current financial disaster. Most of us are on the buroo and so barely affected. Mostly though, we like discussion of Braveheart and what Scandinavian countries - with extortionate taxes/prices for alcohol - get up to becauses it causes our Engerlish brethern to get so very very upset by it. And there is nothing that we enjoy more than upsetting the English - except, of course, Mrs D'Sorderlee and her fine English family!

Duncs:ok:

[Archimedes]

Strange isn't it, every time I see about Scottish Independance, a lot of nastiness comes out. It is almost as though a raw nerve has been bitten through. I don't blame the Scot's for seeking independence if their closest Cousins treat them with such disregard & loathing.

You still expect the Scot's to sing the National Anthem which incedently, contains the words:

MAY SHE LIKE A TORRENT RUSH,
REBELIOUS SCOTS TO CRUSH,
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

Good one England, yet another of the many Countries that you have alienated because of your sheer arrorance & you still can't understand why we keep getting "nul point"" at the Eurovision Contest !

1. When did Marshal Wade (who was the one rushing like a torrent) change gender?

2. The National Anthem does not contain those words, and Scots aren't therefore expected to sing them.

They appear in an entirely unofficial fourth verse which seems to have been penned at the time of the Jacobite rebellion, but which appears not to have been widely known until mentioned in an article on the National Anthem in a magazine in the 1820s or 1830s (I think the latter, probably at the time the words changed to 'the Queen' when Victoria became the first female monarch for over 100 years).

The official national anthem ends with verse three (the 'choicest gifts in store' verse in the unlikely event that any Ppruners are unaware :E).

But apart from the fact that those lines don't refer to the monarch, aren't in the anthem and therefore aren't expected to be sung by anyone of a Scottish disposition, yes, it is a disgrace...

[Roland Pulfrew]

VIProds

Good one England, yet another of the many Countries that you have alienated because of your sheer arrorance & you still can't understand why we keep getting "nul point"" at the Eurovision Contest !

Of course that would have been the United Kingdom getting "nul point" as opposed to England. Unless, of course, I missed the Scottish, Welsh and N'orn Irish entries. :E

[VIProds]

Surplus Very true, you might have hit on something. Maybe we should stop talking about a referendum on independence & instead have a referendum on banning football !! From what you say, it could solve a lot of our problems.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif

Archimedes I bow to your superior knowledge. I read about it years ago & it has obviously changed with time (it's an age thing).

RP I am Scottish, so I said "why we keep getting nul point". It's by association.

[Ken Scott]

Good one England, yet another of the many Countries that you have alienated because of your sheer arrorance & you still can't understand why we keep getting "nul point"" at the Eurovision Contest !

One infers from that statement that you are

a. English,
b. Not 'arrorant',
c. Wise enough to know why every country loathes 'us'.

The United Kingdom entry has in fact won several times in the recent past so presumeably English 'arrogance' alienating other countries is a fairly modern event.

As opposed to the ever larger numbers of countries not actually in Europe being permitted to enter the competition and voting for each other in their cliques.

[WillDAQ]

Remember we get our 8 or 9% of military assets at the break up.
Assuming we use the 8% (which could be argued down to 2.5% depending on your metric of choice)....

What are you going to do with 32% of a SSBN or 64% of a C17? How about that 16% of a carrier? You do own almost half a T45, do you want the front or the back?

I guess you could operate your 12.8 Typhoons, but that's not really a large enough fleet to be sustainable and can you imagine the price Westlands will charge to maintain your 5.36 Apaches?

The reality is that 8% of most of the highest value defence assets doesn't result in anything of value. Instead an independent Scotland is going to be trading those assets for more mundane odds and sods. Expect to get a disproportionate number of tanks, soldiers, weapons and anything that the MoD have been looking to get rid of.

Ultimately none of this matters, as long as Alex gets his 8% of flesh by monetary value and can claim to have kept bases open it doesn't matter if any sort of useable military force results.

[NutLoose]

I personally have nothing against an independant Scotland as long as it is that, totally independant, no funding from the rest of the UK Plc and totally self sustaining, the trouble is the UK is so intertwined in itself I just cannot fathom out how you would do it, take politics for a start, say you have an MP representing an English City but born in Scotland, with independence and not being a natural Citizen of any of the Countries then making up the Uk, would he have to stand down? And then you get onto Government departments, will they all transfer south? Or car tax... Or car registrations... Where does it stop? And taxation will be a nightmare to reconcile


It all seems to be nigh on impossible to separate them?

[Biggus]

Not impossible - merely expensive...

Who will pay? Will an independent Scotland be required to pay the costs incurred in separation, or will they expect the English to pay 92% of the bill?

[Finningley Boy]

OK my ha'pence worth as a Scotsperson brewed mostly in England. If we're all extremely lucky, the Scots, as looks like they may well do, will vote to maintain the state of the union.

If independence is craved, all will face a right old mess. Within a year, a lot of people who may have voted for independence will start to think about it belatedly,the juvenile anti-English Braveheart rhetoric will be evaporating fast as the reality of monster taxes, various demands for necessary funding for things like Border Controls, economic investment, decision on currency (Eck now says they'll keep the Queen and the Pound Sterling), how much they'll need to borrow and just how much they will expect, as has been mentioned, to be bouyed up by the remainder of the UK, essentially England. Oh and I can just see them retaining all the Typhoons and whatever other High Performance military Aircraft Eck's government think will be enough to be just like Norway and their F16/F35 programme. By the time they get to seriously addressing that issue, Lossiemouth and Leuchars will be abandoned by the R.A.F, Army or whoever and all will have been moved south of the border. English people serving in Army units with a Scottish origin will for the most part be opting to be retained by the British Army and of course the R.A.F. north of the border will see a similar drain of personnel with every right to choose to remain a part of the R.A.F. English or otherwise.

Shortly after this problem begins to expand, there may well be an attempt to review and negotiate Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK, the volatile idiots on both sides will be out of the woodwork and noisily opposing what they will see as "selling out" from either perspective. Furthermore, I expect this utter mess will start to develop and grow right at the time that it would be more in the United Kingdom's interests to stand as one as never before since the Second World War.:=

Then again I could be completely wrong!:}

It could even be much worse!:eek:

FB:)

[Lowe Flieger]

I can see nothing wrong with being proud of your nationality or 'regionality' (if that is a legitimate word). But as the last few posts have suggested, unwinding the complex legal, fiscal, economic and social ties that have bound us together all these years will be a heck of a job. There are so many imponderables that I doubt anyone really knows how it would all work out.

Our European friends may give us a pointer as to the sort of things we may expect, should the Greeks exit the Euro (I can't see how they can survive in it) and others follow suit - Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy......?

It's clear that the massed wisdom of our leaders, be they EU, Eurozone, G8, G20 (or G any other number you can think of), bankers, financiers, entrepreneurs, bookies or road sweepers have not got the foggiest how to steer us out of the god-awful mess we have been landed in by putting political ideals and egos before economic common sense. So I predict that the number of planes an independent Scotland might have will soon be completely irrelevant and totally subordinated to the necessity of rebuilding economic sanity in Europe. The long-term effect however, could well be that the European Nation State makes a comeback, as it is patently clear that trying to govern artificial groupings of disparate peoples and cultures is an impossible task.

Sorry to interrupt the cross-border slanging match with my cheerful observations. Carry on.

[Heathrow Harry]

"unwinding the complex legal, fiscal, economic and social ties that have bound us together all these years will be a heck of a job"

not really - we stop paying and they stop taking - sorted............

[renfrew]

Another statistic.
Scotland generates 9.6% of UK tax revenues and gets 9.3% of UK spending.

[Fareastdriver]

That statistic is almost certainly cancelled out by the oil industry where workers are taxed in Scotland but commute from England where they are supported by the English infrastruture.

[Party Animal]

As an Englishman married to a Scot and with a home north of the border, I do have a keen interest in how this will pan out. As with all political debates, it is hard to get to the truth. The SNP will make repeated claims backed up by 'facts' of how much richer Scotland will be if it goes solo. Westminster will argue exactly the opposite with 'counter facts' and those in the middle will have to make a tough decision with far reaching consequences. For regular readers of 'The Economist', they provided an excellent article a few weeks ago that suggested it would be a huge economic mistake for Scotland to make albeit, who can put a price on freedom. I understand that Alex Salmond was enraged by the article from the aforementioned highly respected magazine.

When the Czechs and Slovaks split up in the early 90's, the division of assets between the 2 was fairly easy, as the population had a nice 2:1 ratio (10mil:5mil). Slovakia, with a similar population to Scotland, experienced a huge public funding shock on the realisation that it suddenly had to create it's own FCO, Home Office, MOD HQ, embassies abroad, Border Security etc... even down to a whole bunch of senior officers being required to fill newly created NATO posts. I wonder if any of this has been factored in and I really would like to see detailed future plans and costs before arguing with Mrs PA's family on how they should vote. One thing is for certain, individual tax rates would take a huge hike to pay for the massive welfare bill north of the border. Hopefully, I could stay in the English tax system despite being domiciled in Scotland?

Of course, as we are seeing in Greece and France, I'm sure the SNP would be succesful if they promised a free I-Pad to all those who voted 'yes'.

Serious bit over with - now you can return to the racist comments that fill up 90% of this thread....

[cazatou]

One interesting point is that HMG reserves the right to tax "Government Pensions" in the UK irrespective of where the Recipient resides in the World. My Wife was a College Vice Principle whilst I was an RAF Officer and although we are Resident in France our Pensions are taxed in UK.

I would assume that all ex UK "Government Employees" in Scotland would continue to be Taxed by HMG - which is of course paying their Pensions!!

[Dunky]

More to the point, as I reside in Scotland, but my base is in England, would my HDT claim carry on as normal, (from my home address), or start at the border, and how would income tax work :ooh:

[Doctor Cruces]

althenick,

Doesn't matter. We are a United Kingdom by the Act of Union. That means it matters to everyone in the UK. If the Scots have a referendum to see if they want to go or not, and if Mr S and the rest of the single issue politicos up there decide to try and do UDI a la Rhodesia, the rest of the UK should decide whether we want to keep on nicking all your oil etc!

Must say, I don't understand the anti Scottish feeling down here. You have a crap footie team, your rugby team is awful and you don't really play cricket so where's the harm? My daughter's mother in law is a rabid anti Scot. Don't know why, never been there as far as I know and lives in Northamptonshire. Weird! My son in law stuck it to her though, married a Scot so her grandson is half Scottish and her daughter in law is all Scottish. She claims this right because her Mum is Scottish and she was born in Scotland.

SO, in summary. All the UK should get a go at deciding whether they should leave the Union and the rest of England (don't know about Jock bashing in Wales and NI) should declare a truce and stop being, in effect, racist b'stards!

Doc C

:)

[MFC_Fly]

I would assume that all ex UK "Government Employees" in Scotland would continue to be Taxed by HMG - which is of course paying their Pensions!!
Why would HMG (I am assuming you mean HM's UK G?) be paying their pensions? If an independent Scotland are claiming 8-9% of the UK coffers/military/etc, they should also take on paying 8-9% of the current public-sector pension burden :ok:

[althenick]

Doc
I can empithise with anyone south of the border wanting a say, I just think it should be about the practicalities of Independence rather than whether it should be allowed to happen. And yes, The oil was found in scottish waters however it was done whilst in the union therefore the rest of the UK have some rights to ownership. :E
I do get a little sick of the Jock Reich up here harping on about How the assets are going to be split up. I haven't heard too much about the Liabilities for example there are 14 British overseas dependencies going by th 9% rule Scotland should get at least 1 possibly 2. Theres probably more but I'm full up with lurgie and desperately need my grot.

I'm Scottish by Birth and British by Birthright. I am equally proud of the Unions Acheivments and ashamed at it's failures particularly where suffering and death has been caused.

But I'm still British

and no Jumped-up-wee-megalomaniac-****e-Bag that is overly fond of his Pies is going to take that away from me. :ok:

[glad rag]

Excellent stuff guys. This is probably a bit tooo subtle for some...

yad_clT4T2Y

[Doctor Cruces]

Althenic,

I only get this filtered through the English, Londoncentric media so am fairly insulated from what Scotland must be experiencing. I imagine Salmond and his cronies will be bombarding the average Scot with anti England propaganda in order to make his thousand year dream come about.

I'd love to see Scotland prosper, and Wales and NI, but as part of a United Kingdom. Trouble is, the attitudes displayed here probably go all the way to the top so a lot of re education and attitude adjustment will be necessary.

Best wishes for the future.

Doc C

[renfrew]

There is absolutely no anti English propaganda coming from the SNP.
There are plenty of English born SNP members and at least one SNP MSP is English.
On the other hand the anti SNP lies from the Daily Mail and the rest of the unionist press are disgusting.

[cornish-stormrider]

Meh, leddem go - whats worth hanging on to.
I was hated almost everywhere I went north of the border - just because of my accent.

My only refuge was in the lairs of the wild ones - the insane locals driven by the needs to surf, snowboard, and sail their way to paradise.

they know how to share, how to party and how to look after a fellow surfer far from his home break.

If they do break away I would go and visit - spend my huge english pounds up there buying trinkets, doodahs and Glenfiddich.:E

The racist vitriol is not helping - tell wee eck (as I believe he is called) to put up or shut up!

[althenick]

Cornish S.R

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the Natives up here. As a 9 year old in 1972 My old man was Posted from Lossie to Culdrose and my accent went from Doric to Grokle almost overnight! Suffice to say when he was Draughted back up to Prestwick I came in for some attention from the Scratters. Trying to tell them I was from Elgin was an interesting experience When asked where I was from - Replied "Elgin" - the usual retort was "Where F*cks than in England" had to learn how to use my fists pretty quicky! :ugh:

[cats_five]

Wee Eck will only require 2 heavy lift transport aircraft in his air force, one for himself and one for his ego.

I thought his ego was bigger than that. Quite a bit bigger. Time to move back to England?

[OilCan]

Bye Bye. :E

Ego...Ego is it. I'll tell ye aboot ego.....

Unfortunatley for many, it's that shrinking violet Cameron thats one of the many issues here. :sad:

[chopabeefer]

I have no idea if Scotland will vote for independance - hope they do. I hope they are FULLY independant though. That way, the moronic imbeciles who have destroyed the UK over the last few years (ALL scots, with that evil traitor BROWN at the forefront - why has he not been executed for treason - he DELIBERATELY dismantled our military, for money, whilst lying about it), will be stuck in their midge infested bog of a country.

Sounds good to me!

[MarkD]

I imagine Scotland could invite in a friendly power to stage out of its bases much as the USAF has done in England. Some Flankers would be a grand sight for photographers as they do practice runs through the glens...

[Thelma Viaduct]

Once we've got rid of the Jocks, anywhere south of Coventry should be regarded as Northern France, if it already isn't so. An English man's home is his castle. If you insert an imaginary R in to castle, you're not English, so please **** off and close the door behind you.

[Rakshasa]

Heh heh, you've reminded me of when I got posted back Ooop north and my little 'un, who'd known nowhere other than Odious, upon passing through Newark said in the cutest voice imaginable, "does a princess live in the car-sell?"

[Roland Pulfrew]

anywhere south of Coventry should be regarded as Northern France

PP

I think you'll find that anywhere in Northern (and for that matter Western) France is actually South Britain, or to be more accurate South England. :E

[Heathrow Harry]

Overheard in a Newcastle pub in the '70's

"nae use for the South of England? Whey man, withoot the south of England there'd be 200 miles of bluidy rough watter between Doncaster and Calais....."

[VIProds]

I honestly believe that the Scot's will see sense & vote to stay within the Union, so long as Westminster doesn't pass any silly votes just before the Referendum, like withholding State Pension till we are 80, or reducing more Taxes for the ultra rich & giving them free air travel passes !

What is more worrying is, how can our legally elected representitives in Parliament vote 234 FOR & 22 AGAINST a motion opposing "Votes for Prisoners", then to have them over ruled by unelected forigners in Brussels ? They are making a mockery of our Democracy. Let's get back our National (British) pride & be masters of our own destiny, again.

[Whenurhappy]

What is more worrying is, how can our legally elected representitives in Parliament vote 234 FOR & 22 AGAINST a motion opposing "Votes for Prisoners", then to have them over ruled by unelected forigners in Brussels ? They are making a mockery of our Democracy. Let's get back our National (British) pride & be masters of our own destiny, again

Except you are wrong. The European Court of Human Rights, in Strasbourg, is nothing to do with the EU (and is older). It was established with the guidance and assistance of the UK (with Churchill's backing) to stop Crimes Agaisnt Humanity (genocide &c) happenign in europe - again.

[Skilly]

"FYI all other posters - Deep fried Mars bars were Invented in a Chippy in Brum and I have yet to see a Chippy up here that sells them"

Seen whilst I was bimbling through Stonehaven,

The Carron Fish Bar, Stonehaven (http://www.carronfishbar.webecomservices.co.uk/)

I love the quote from MB of Peterhead, bless him

Skilly

[althenick]

FYI all other posters - Deep fried Mars bars were Invented in a Chippy in Brum and I have yet to see a Chippy up here that sells them"

Seen whilst I was bimbling through Stonehaven,

The Carron Fish Bar, Stonehaven

I love the quote from MB of Peterhead, bless him

Skilly
1st Jun 2012 13:38
Whenurhappy What is more worrying is, how can our legally elected representitives


Silky - There was a Chippy In Brum I went back in 1981 - On the Soho Road IIRC. The owner claimed he was the Inventor of the foul concoction. However happy to corrected though I still haven't seen a Chippy up here selling them - Then again, I dont frequent chippies that often.

[Heathrow Harry]

definitely invented in Stonehaven

[VIProds]

Whenurhappy Exactly, "to stop Crimes Against Humanity (genocide)". Yes, I fully agree with that but what about our civil rights being forced to give the vote to murderers, rapests & pedophiles. This is nothing to do with Crimes Against Humanity !

In Billy Connolly's shows, he said that all our problems in the Middle East are due to Stan ! yes, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Afganistan etc. It would seem that anything with Europe in the title is a problem to us.

Actually, I thought that the ECHR was in the Hague, but now realize it was the International Court of Justice. Both my Children went to School just around the corner from the ICJ, at the British School of the Nethrerlands. When we moved to Frankfurt, we would drive all the way down to Strasbourg, to M&S where we could purchase real potato crisps that weren't paprika flavored !!

Sorry to go off track with this, but I had to respond.

[Exnomad]

When Ships were sunk in the Falklands war, it was rumored that any missing stores were deemed to have sunk with them.
I could see lots of opportunity here. "Where is xyx123 sergeant". "Sent to Scotland as part of the settlement sir"

[NutLoose]

When the USSR collapsed the Russians on departing East Germany lifted all of the hexagonal blocks that made up all the airfield taxiways etc and took them with them, shame we couldn't do the same

[sitigeltfel]

Some Flankers would be a grand sight for photographers as they do practice runs through the glens...

Failing that you could always go watch the *ankers in Holyrood.

[glad rag]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01739/cameron_1739217c.jpg

One is an actor, one is a *anker, you decide!

[Heathrow Harry]

Exnomad wrote:-

"When Ships were sunk in the Falklands war, it was rumored that any missing stores were deemed to have sunk with them."

Goes back a long way - my father was on maintenance on a Beaufighter strike squadron out of the Shetlands in 1943/44. At one point they went 3 months without a loss (bad weather, luck, easy targets....) and the ground crews were getting frantic. Enventually one poor sod didn't make it back - not surprising as he was (according to the paperwork) carrying a load that would have troubled a C-47 - my father admitted to "loading" two sets of 8ft stair ladders for a start.......

[Rj111]

On OECD GDP figures UK ranks about 16.
Scotland will rank about 6 and will be able to afford to defend itself.

This is a lie. And you have fallen for it.

[NutLoose]

I can't see how the Scottish GDP would be greater, I mean I know the UK PLC manufactures squat these days, but bar a dwindling oil supply what the heck does Scotland produce, the odd bottle of Whiskey, fish farms, skirts for men and deep fried Mars Bars (that they have to import). I just cannot see the figures holding up.

[OutlawPete]

Whiskey is produced in Ireland. The Scots produce Whisky. As for the north sea, theres as much oil still to come out as has already been removed so its hardly dwindling. Financially, Scotland would be fine on its own. Definitely better off. It would, however, take England decades to recover from the split.

[renfrew]

Google for the Mccrone Report and have a read.
This report was suppressed for 30 years by the UK government scared of the reaction of the Scottish public if they realised the implications.

[Bastardeux]

Financially, Scotland would be fine on its own. Definitely better off. It would, however, take England decades to recover from the split.

I think you're vastly over-estimating Scotland's place in the world. England, completely on it's own, would still be in the same place on the world rankings, if it was an independent country. Scotland, would fall into international insignificance; it would have as much sway in international affairs as Ireland i.e. none. Trying to compare Scotland to Norway is also laughable, Norway is far, far richer than Scotland and with much more stable finances. What on earth would England lose that would make it take 'decades' to recover from?? The £3 billion in oil revenue probably lies well within the treasury's standard deviation for tax receipts.

This is of course, excluding the argument of Scotland having no say in its monetary policy and the MoD moving all of its assets and contracts south of the border, plus all the other important yet unanswered questions.

[Heathrow Harry]

Scotland has to decide on how they are going to run their currency

they can have

a) Euro = little control over it
b) Pound = no control over it
c) their own currency - lots of control but no-one will want it

[Lima Juliet]

What the less informed Nationailists seem to forget is that most of the influential business people in Scotland will leave Salmond and his 16 year old dreamers to their own devices. My brother in law has a multi-million Pound business North of the Border - he told me that he and a lot of his business chums will sell up and go.

He is resolute that he is Scottish first and British second but his opinion of Salmond is exceptionally low; I suspect he is NOT in a minority and the newly found independent Scotland will hit the ropes in very short order. He knows the value that the Union brings to his business and what it will mean if the ill-informed vote to go it alone.

Here's hoping the Union survives into the next Century for all of our sakes...

LJ

[NutLoose]

I believe he was also trying to kick up a storm because the Scottish flag was not allowed to be flown over the venues for the Olympics, the fact that the Union flag could only be flown in all Union Countries over the venues obviously did not satisfy him.

[renfrew]

The Saltire will now fly in it's normal place at Hampden.
The London Olympic committee had to back down in face of offence caused here.

[kiwibrit]

Whiskey is produced in Ireland. The Scots produce Whisky. As for the north sea, theres as much oil still to come out as has already been removed so its hardly dwindling. Financially, Scotland would be fine on its own. Definitely better off. It would, however, take England decades to recover from the split.

Hmm. It'd be interesting to see how the agreed boundary between Scotland and the rest of Britain would go. I'd also be interested to know who it intended to pay for the HBOS and RBS debts. Alex Salmond was proud of RBS (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/Speeches/First-Minister/harvard-university)


And looking at our near neighbours, consider the remarkable success of indigenous companies that have become global, Nokia in Finland, Ericsson in Sweden, Maersk shipping in Denmark or for that matter the Royal Bank of Scotland.
All these examples show us that the smaller economies of Europe are just as well equipped as the larger economies - if not better - to provide the skills, the incentives and the regulatory environment that big business needs to succeed.
Building the Celtic Lion economyso you might think he was keen to pick up the tab. Not so. (http://www.channel4.com/news/salmond-you-keep-scots-bank-debt-well-keep-the-oil-money)

[lj101]

Scotland's Marine Atlas: Information for The National Marine Plan (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/03/16182005/70)


Renfrew,

Just curious with reference to the Shetland Islands and the location of the oil fields near to them in this debate.

[OutlawPete]

"I think you're vastly over-estimating Scotland's place in the world"

Definitely. Have you ever met a Scot who doesn't?

I agree with Leon, hopefully the Union will prevail, we're all better off together.

[NutLoose]

Renfrew,

Just curious with reference to the Shetland Islands and the location of the oil fields near to them in this debate.

Of course in this Grand scheme of Scotland becoming independant from the UK, what is to then Stop the Danish asking for the Shetlands being returned from the independant Scotland, after all it is their rightful territory.

[lj101]

During the 14th century Norway, Sweden and Denmark united, but even together they were not as wealthy or powerful as before and a marriage was proposed between the Danish and Scottish Royal Households to bring prosperity to both. The dowry was 60,000 florins and Shetland was put forward by the Danes as surety. The Danish princess died en route to her wedding in Scotland but Scotland still insisted on payment; the Danes could not pay and so, in 1468, Shetland was forfeited to Scotland
.....

Today Shetland’s population sits at around 22,000 and there are more young people here than in any other part of the Highlands and Islands or Scotland as a whole.
In 2001 all forms of fishing combined were worth £243.1 million to the economy, oil £57.7 million, agriculture £13.1 million, tourism £12.6 million and knitwear £2.5 million.
It is extraordinary to think that what was 100 years ago a remote, impoverished cluster of islands with no real hope for the future, today has the highest average gross weekly earnings in Britain! £540 for Shetland, £133.50 for Scotland and £121.50 for Great Britain as a whole in 2001.

Interesting times for all.... Sorry for thread drift...

[Biggus]

lj101,

Average gross weekly earning for Great Britain in 2001 £121.50....are you sure?

That would make the average gross annual earnings £6318, which seems far too low a figure....

[lj101]

Big

I'm not sure at all, I just scooped the info after a bit of googling as I was interested (sadly) in the history of the Shetlands.

A Brief History Of Shetland | Saxa Vord Resort, Unst, Shetland (http://www.saxavord.com/history-of-shetland.php)

[Rj111]

Google for the Mccrone Report and have a read.
This report was suppressed for 30 years by the UK government scared of the reaction of the Scottish public if they realised the implications.

There's no need to look at the McCrone report because it's all speculative. It's much easier to just look at the actual figures which show Scotland hasn't been robbed of its precious precious oil wealth.

[Rj111]

Whiskey is produced in Ireland. The Scots produce Whisky. As for the north sea, theres as much oil still to come out as has already been removed so its hardly dwindling. Financially, Scotland would be fine on its own. Definitely better off. It would, however, take England decades to recover from the split.

Thanks for the laugh.

England would barely notice Scotland leaving the UK, Scotland makes up a small fraction of the UK economy.

In the short term Scotland would inevitably be worse off (and so would England) because it'd have to pay the huge overhead and upheaval of breaking up a country into 2. Medium term, it might stay on par with England IF the oil prices stay high. Long term when the oil runs out, Scotland will be worse off again.

[Exnomad]

Re Scottish air force.There is a Pioneer is reasonable nick in East Fortune Museum, add a few Bulldogs and there you have a viable airforce. Mind you there is also a Tonka in that museum as well, I do not know if that is flyable.

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

If the independence referendum fails, perhaps England & Wales could have their own referendum to eject Scotland?

I'll get my coat.... ;)

[Finningley Boy]

If the independence referendum fails, perhaps England & Wales could have their own referendum to eject Scotland?

I'll get my coat....

And would Northern Ireland not have a vote?:8

FB:)

[langleybaston]

Did not the whole mutual antipathy kick off with Penis Law's comments about not supporting England during the winning World Cup run of 1966?

I well remember the English anger at the churlish remarks.

The Scots went straight away from 'friends/ tolerated' level to abeam France ................

As for Scottish goalkeepers ................

[dervish]

Did not the whole mutual antipathy kick off with Penis Law's comments about not supporting England during the winning World Cup run of 1966?


No, it kicked off one week-end in the 12th century. On the Friday night the English yobs climbed over the wall, went on the piss and raped and pillaged.

On the Saturday night, the Scots gents went south for a shandy and made love and borrowed things.

:ok:

[NutLoose]

'Ang on 'ang on a moment... My old Mums house and Nutloose's youthful tramping grounds are Norf' of t' wall by some 100 odd yards..... But in England.... Let's not start shifting borders about... One does not want to become known as a Jock.... No offence meant, they're alright and all that, but I'd look awful in a skirt..

[VIProds]

Good point NutLoose sorry, I meant to say McNutLoose, if we used Hadrian's Wall as the border, then Newcasle & Carlisle would be back in Scotland ! Do we (as Scot's) really want that ?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Impiger]

When the referendum happens the counts will presumably be regional/constituency based. If a clear majority in say Lothian, or Shetland vote to stay could we see a split Scotland like we have a split Ireland? Surely the SNP couldn't claim moral authority to deny Shetlanders the right to stay in the Union if that is what they vote for - precious few Saltires to be seen flying in the northern islands!

Just a thought .....

[LFFC]

I see that the standard of reporting in The Scotsman remains at an all-time low.

Veil of secrecy after MoD axes £17bn of kit (http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/veil-of-secrecy-after-mod-axes-17bn-of-kit-1-2339419)

I just love the caption beneath the picture of three Nimrods!! :eek:

[Dunky]

I just love the caption beneath the picture of three Nimrods!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Low level training on the M74 again ;)

[OutlawPete]

Did not the whole mutual antipathy kick off with Penis Law's comments about not supporting England during the winning World Cup run of 1966?

I well remember the English anger at the churlish remarks.

The Scots went straight away from 'friends/ tolerated' level to abeam France ................

As for Scottish goalkeepers ................

Thats the problem with the English, they just can't take a joke!

[Heathrow Harry]

What would a ScAF look like?

probably more like the Irish Air Arm than the RAF I'd have thought

ASR helicopters, marine patrol and a 747-8 for for the First Minister would just about cover it

[melmothtw]

Now Here's a Thought

When the referendum happens the counts will presumably be regional/constituency based. If a clear majority in say Lothian, or Shetland vote to stay could we see a split Scotland like we have a split Ireland? Surely the SNP couldn't claim moral authority to deny Shetlanders the right to stay in the Union if that is what they vote for - precious few Saltires to be seen flying in the northern islands!

Just a thought .....


The north of England, Scotland and Wales consistently vote Labour at General Elections but are often saddled with a Conservative government based on the larger number of votes cast for the Tories in the south of England.

Just as a Tory government can claim to have moral authority over the parts of the UK that didn't vote for it, so the SNP (or whichever party governs an independent Scotland) could claim to have the same moral authority over parts of the country that may not have voted for independence.

The will of the majority would prevail - it's called democracy.

[Roland Pulfrew]

The north of England, Scotland and Wales consistently vote Labour at General Elections but are often saddled with a Conservative government based on the larger number of votes cast for the Tories in the south of England.

Or, of course, the centre and south of England (and actually large parts of the north) are often saddled with a Labour Government based on the larger (questionable) number of votes cast for Labour in the inner cities and Scotland. Just for the cause of balance you understand. ;)

I still think that if the Union is to be dissolved then all voters in the Union should get a vote. Would be intersting to see what the results would be if there was a vote on the EU right now. Would Scotland vote to stay but England vote to leave. What if the majority in the Union wanted to leave?

[melmothtw]

I still think that if the Union is to be dissolved then all voters in the Union should get a vote.


I see your point, but not sure I agree. If a country wants to secede from a political union then it up to the citizens of that country to make that decision.

Could you imagine a Soviet Union-wide vote on the granting of independence for its consituent countries going the way of the secessionists? The Baltic states, Ukraine etc would still be part of the greater Russian empire because the Russians who made up the bulk of the Soviet populace would never have voted for it - why would they?

If such a voting sytem were introduced anywhere in the world it would always go against those seeking independence and instead go the way of the larger union as it has the larger population.

If Scotland wants independence then they should vote on it without interference from beyond its borders, and the same is true for England and Wales.

Ps; I'm not Scottish.

[ZH875]

If such a voting sytem were introduced anywhere in the world it would always go against those seeking independence .......




If England was able to vote on the issue, I doubt if any Bookies would take any bets on Scotland remaining part of the Union.

If the Jocks want to split the UK, let the UK vote and help them on their merry way.

[melmothtw]

If England was able to vote on the issue, I doubt if any Bookies would take any bets on Scotland remaining part of the Union.

If the Jocks want to split the UK, let the UK vote and help them on their merry way.


Yes, you say that because it's easy to be flippant on an internet forum, but if push came to shove I would wager that the majority of those in the UK would vote to retain the status quo.

[Lightning Mate]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/Hadrians-Wall-001.jpg

[NutLoose]

Stop it.... My mum lives norf of t' wall, and there is no way we are Scots.. :(:{

[diginagain]

Stop it.... My mum lives norf of t' wall, and there is no way we are Scots.. Given your recent history of being 'positionally-challenged', I wouldn't put any money on it. :)

[NutLoose]

Damn those pasty eaters :p

[diginagain]

Damn them indeed. Oi luvs the little Korns, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

[LFFC]

Yes, you say that because it's easy to be flippant on an internet forum, but if push came to shove I would wager that the majority of those in the UK would vote to retain the status quo.

Of course they would, because the majority realise that we are both much stronger together than we would be apart. However, that's only really the case if we continue to have common fiscal policies decided centrally by Westminster. No surprise there; the German government and the rest of the EuroZone are now finally beginning to realise that common fiscal policies and federal governance are perhaps the only way out of the Euro monetary crisis.

Perhaps I've got this wrong, but it seems like the SNP want fiscal independence for Scotland whilst keeping the security of staying within the SterlingZone. However, we saw what happened in Greece (and other countries) when they were allowed just that when joining the Eurozone; profligate spending ruined them and has brought the EuroZone to its knees! Sadly you can see signs of that trend of profligate spending in Scotland already; free university education etc etc.

So in my view, everyone in the UK has to wake up and smell the coffee. If we are going to stay out of the EuroZone and continue to exist as a strong sovereign state, we should work together to common policies and with one governing body that sets the rules for all. The alternative is to let Scotland go its own way with its own currency - there is no middle ground.

:(

[NutLoose]

I heard the new currency the Scottish were considering was the Groat as it was a coinage previously used by several countries including Scotland, but to delineate it as the new currency they are going to precede the coin with the letter S for Scotland, so the new currency will be the Sgroat.

[diginagain]

I'd have thought Eck's virtual-kingdom would find a use for the e-groat................

[draken55]

"Sadly you can see signs of that trend of profligate spending in Scotland already; free university education etc etc."

Actually you can't at least not at present! What you can see is a devolved Parliament deciding how to prioritise the funds allocated to it by HMG at Westminster and yes we know the formula that decides that might well be too generous. So should Holyrood decide to pay for student fees and free transport for over 60's that means less to spend in other areas. For example, we still don't have a Motorway linking our two largest City's!

Buying votes by directing spending on the young and the old is the game here in the build up to 2014.

[LFFC]

What you can see is a devolved Parliament deciding how to prioritise the funds allocated to it by HMG at Westminster and yes we know the formula that decides that might well be too generous.

I rest my case!

[minigundiplomat]

I heard the Jocks had already had a referendum on joining the Euro........



....9 out 10 voted to keep the Giro.

[NutLoose]

:E


..

[glad rag]

Indeed, a sad state of affairs I think you will agree. :E

[draken55]

MGD

A tad behind the times!

Girobank (from where the derogatory term "cashing a giro" came) was sold by HMG to Alliance & Leicester in 1990. A&L like Abbey National is now owned by Santander UK which is the British arm of a Spanish Bank.

If you are out of work in the UK you receive Job Seekers Allowance (by BACS to a Post Office Account or normal Current Account) for a maximum of 26 weeks at £70.30 per week. If you have a wife/husband in work that's your wack as even if you have paid full NI for years, you will not be eligible for a means tested benefit after that. Hardly a life of luxury but yes the system is still there to be abused by a small minority the cost of which is a pinprick in comparison to tax planning/dodging by the UK Companies and the rich.

This country needs jobs but there is little sign that we have the means to create anything like the number needed. Our education system is failing our children in raising false expectations. The harsh reality is that many will be competing for work with Indian and Chinese workers as our Financial Services Companies continue to offshore work in the same way as our manufacturing industry has had to do in recent years.

Those of you in the Home Counties who think you are immune to this really need to waken up. We have all been asleep in the UK since 1990 when the Wall came down and Germany pushed east to claim by business what it had often sought through war. In the meantime we played at monopoly and with monopoly money!

[glad rag]

Draken, correct, and if you have a measly service pension in excess of £92 a week you get **** all even with two young children.............fair it aint!!:mad:

[OutlawPete]

England should be doing all it can to preserve the Union. Independence for Scotland would be very bad news for the English economy and how they are viewed by overseas investors. Trade links with England would dry up, the pound would go into freefall and the recession would become a depression.

[Rob Courtney]

England should be doing all it can to preserve the Union. Independence for Scotland would be very bad news for the English economy and how they are viewed by overseas investors. Trade links with England would dry up, the pound would go into freefall and the recession would become a depression.

And your evidence is?

[NutLoose]

The way some of them were talking about it on Question time, they do not want to leave the Union or to lose the Queen, simply have a stand alone Country within it, they were quoting the likes of N Zealand and Australia, that still have the Queen as their Monarch but are independent of the UK.

[draken55]

Didn't catch Question Time but the SNP's Mike Russell behaved like a complete twit in a BBC Scotland programme at lunchtime to-day. He would not stop yapping was aggressive and tried hard not to let any points other than his get made.

Question SNP views and they often react with venom. On Defence, anyone with half a brain knows that the idea of a separate Scotland retaining complex warship building on the Clyde is daft. The workers realise this and are onto the SNP. They know they face the chop after the carrier programme ends if Type 26 does not arrive to replace it. To also argue for the retention of Lossie and Leuchars when neither would be needed after Independence is pure deceit. The likely scale of assets required (SAR and MPA) could be based at Prestwick or other civilian airfields. We have many and they are not even near capacity!

[Rob Courtney]

Question time was fun, they had some SNP supporting buffoon of an actor who cant see why people question his motives when he dosent even live in Scotland and has taken American citizenship.

[NutLoose]

A bit like the reference to Sean Connery too, puts his ten penneth in for it, but lives abroad and pays no taxes in Scotland.

[OutlawPete]

And your evidence is?

Its just an opinion. Why does it need evidence?

But since you asked, England is hardly a popular country around the globe at the best of times so the break up of the Union can only make things worse.

[Fareastdriver]

In all my travel around the globe as part of my job when they ask me where I live i say Scotand.

"Where's that?"
"North of England."

If you want to change Scottish banknotes into local currency, forget it.

[500N]

"Its just an opinion. Why does it need evidence?

But since you asked, England is hardly a popular country around the globe at the best of times so the break up of the Union can only make things worse."


Because making a wild statement like that should be backed up with some facts and figures.

"Independence for Scotland would be very bad news for the English economy and how they are viewed by overseas investors. Trade links with England would dry up, the pound would go into free fall and the recession would become a depression."

The British economy is not dependent on Scotland, people will trade with Britain regardless of whether Scotland is part of the Union and I would put a bet that Scotland leaving would not take Britain into recession or depression.
Scotlands economy is a pimple on the butt of the British Economy.

That's a bit like saying if Australia became a republic, a major shift will occur with how the rest of the world views us !
As though they really give a damn.

And as for popular, no more or less so than any other country.

[lj101]

And as for popular, no more or less so than any other country.

With the added bonus, that being English, we don't generally give a bugger what others think of us. ;)

[althenick]

England is hardly a popular country around the globe

I really hate to say this but i've worked all over Europe and have to say that this statement is generally correct. My work usually keeps me in one place for 6 months to a year - so learning the basics of the local language is a must (Except Belguim and The Netherlands) Three Phrases I learn first are

"Please"
"Thankyou"
and
"No I'm not English, i'm Scottish"

Sad to say the last one gets me a lot further with the locals :sad:

[draken55]

I don't know. In my visits to Austria, Germany and Italy I have a noticed a genuine love of many things English. A couple of years ago in Munich, I was surprised to see cricket being played albeit I was walking through the Englischer Garten.

It's a pity that some fail to live up to the image that many abroad still have of the English. Scots, like the Irish, have a different image to live up to. On the whole we seem to do so!

Another abiding memory was a visit to Paris and noticing a Frenchman wearing the kilt and an England Rugby shirt. A pity I didn't take a picture!

[althenick]

Draken,
I think your Black-catting mate :p

[draken55]

Althenick,

Not on purpose!

[OutlawPete]

5ooN

Because making a wild statement like that should be backed up with some facts and figures.

Its an opinion, nothing more, and no less valid than any of the other statements made on here.

In my opinion, the English economy would suffer greatly from disolution of the Union. So would the Scottish economy, simply because its bad for business for UKPLC.

The British economy is not dependent on Scotland

I never said it was. There are, however, those on here that would argue that England would just shrug Scotland off and not notice. Now comments like that are as dangerous to the Union as the ones made by the SNP.

By the way, you're not still smarting from the rugby are you, 500N?

[Rob Courtney]

Its an opinion, nothing more, and no less valid than any of the other statements made on here.

Ok its an opinion, fine but can I suggest when you post your opinion you make it clearer.

For what its worth heres mine, England would gain by 1, not having to pay subsidies to Scotland because of the Barnett formula. 2, A shipbuilding industry as all naval work would be carried out in the United Kingdom. 3, No more labour Governments. 4, More jobs as all UK govt services would be moved back south of the border followed by a lot of major businesses currently based on both sides of the border. 5, 9% off our national debt and the RBS debt going back north of the border. 6, Not having to listen to Alex Salmonds whinging

England would lose?....... erm nothing springs to mind:E

I dont want the UK to break up but like most of us south of the border have had enough of the whinging coming from North of the border

[OutlawPete]

Rob,
I can't say I'm in agreement with much of your last post. You'd still have Labour for example, there are many areas in England that will always support them. And you d probably still be able to hear Alex Salmonds whinging too, that I am certain of.

From what I've seen since this whole debate started, most of the whinging you speak of seems to be coming from south of the border. I've yet to meet a fellow Scot who wants this to happen. All I said was that it was bad news for England too and I firmly believe that.

[Melchett01]

An interesting article in the latest edition of Janes Defence Weekly on the impact of Scottish independence.

Not only does it describe aspects of the SNP's defence policy as a triumph of naivety over reality, it has carried out some modelling of where an independent Scotland might fit into the international defence scope. Based on the current defence spending contribution of £3.3Bn, an independent Scotland allocating 1.5% of GDP to defence would come in between Portugal and Belgium whilst an allocation of 2.2% of GDP would see that position improve to put Scotland between Indonesia and Thailand.

Earlier in the same edition, there was also an article about how Russia is re-opening 3 bases on its Northern / Arctic flanks. All of them have long runways and in the Cold War were traditionally used as staging posts for trips over the Arctic or deep into the Atlantic & North Sea. So clearly, Scotland has nothing to worry about and will quite easily be able to cope with a couple of small Inf Bns.

[dervish]

I'm not sure such a relatively low position on the world's military stage would bother Scotland in the slightest. The days are long gone when we provided hundreds of thousands to fall for the Empire, although there is probably still a disproportionately large Scots component of the Armed Forces. If the bigger players want to play games or have staging facilities, then there's such a thing as rent.

That said, the SNP are somewhat over optimistic and act like many who suddenly and unexpectedly find themselves in power. That is, like arseholes.

[500N]

OutlawPete

"By the way, you're not still smarting from the rugby are you, 500N ?"

No, all good, I've been around long enough to see all of the major countries
to be on top at some stage.

And re the core discussion, I do have an interest as have a very Scottish name, part Scottish by ancestry but British by birth !

[OutlawPete]

Pleased to hear you have a vested interest, 500N.

On the issue of defence, this is one area where the NO to independence vote should score highly, due in the most to the SNP defence policy. Or lack of it.

[Melchett01]

I'm not sure such a relatively low position on the world's military stage would bother Scotland in the slightest

dervish,

You are probably correct there. However, it does all point towards a lack of appreciation and understanding in their arguments that the SNP continually believe everything will hunky-dory the day after the revolution. The sooner the SNP realise the true costs behind their proposals, that they can't just pick and choose the parts of international relations and commitments that suits on any particular day, the better Scotland will be and we can then enter into a fully informed and realistic debate.

[Rj111]

In my opinion, the English economy would suffer greatly from disolution of the Union.

In my opinion you are an idiot.