Student monitoring on solo navex.

[dfspilot]

Hi all,
Have seen a monitoring system for evaluating a students solo navex which shows his/her progress, on/off track to debrief afterwards but am struggling to find it online. Has anyone any names of the product/ products.would prefer something that is not a permanent fixture in the aircraft. Can be plugged into a laptop or desktop and maybe iPad after flight.Looking for an inexpensive option as I will have to pay and not the flight school.
Just to clarify would not be using just on solo navex but dual also,purely as a debrief tool but secondary to all other navigation skills that would be thought as part of the syllabus.
Most students now turn up with smartphones and although they know not to use them, when they are unsure of position it's one of the things they use whether we like to admit it or not, modern times unfortunately.Sure they can't use them dual ,but when they have the comfort of an instructor on board and if they end up off track or temporarily unsure of position they turn and look at the instuctor for guidance.
A track shown on a CAA chart would be ideal to debrief,but they wouldnt be going solo if they are deemed not suitable.

Purely rightly or wrongly a debrief tool, no James bond stuff intended!

[AmarokGTI]

I don't think a covert GPS system is the way to go at all. The student needs to be disciplined enough to tell you what happened.

[Whopity]

Why would you want to "monitor" a student on a solo navex? The whole point of the exercise is to let the student gain confidence without anyone looking over their shoulder. Before you authorise the flight you make sure they are competent, then you let them go. Wherever they go, or whatever they do is largely irrelevant, they will learn from the process. If the students think they are are being monitored, they will perform for the monitor and the value is lost.

[RTN11]

I don't think GPS monitoring is fair.

The best bit about sending a student solo nav is hearing how they recount it to you, what they thought was relevant, and what they learnt. If they bust airspace, I'm sure you'll get a call from someone when they're safely on the ground, and anything other than that is just good learning.

If they get completely lost, but manage to recover it, they've learnt even more. Tracking it with GPS isn't really going to assist that. If a student wanted to track a flight with their own GPS so they could see how it looks, fair enough, but I wouldn't want to be looking over their shoulder even when I'm not in the cockpit.

[mad_jock]

Well said Whopity, you always find out if things go wrong even if they try to cover it up.

[B2N2]

I see nothing wrong with an "alternate" method of monitoring a student.
If it involves hiding a GPS, so be it.
I lied to my instructors when I was a solo student, I see no reason why they wouldn't lie to me know.
Somebody coming back with 8-10 gallons less fuel then planned is a clue........

[Cobalt]

If you use a GPS-log in your debriefing after every dual navex - which I think is a great way to debrief, especially if the track is displayed on a CAA chart - then I would also use it after a solo navex.

For the student, it will feel normal, and part of the general learning experience.

If you use it for a solo navex ONLY, the student might indeed feel uncomfortable or worry about it - not the kind of mindset that will give good performance... they worry enough as it is.


B2N2, the fact that you DID lie and your student MIGHT lie does not justify an instructor lying to their student.

[foxmoth]

would prefer something that is not a permanent fixture in the aircraft.

I had a student who was due for solo navex but really was not very good and needed decent weather conditions, this guy had his own aircraft (which will be relevant as the story goes on), after some time we finally got a day when many students were being sent on solo navs and of course this man wanted to do his, after some argument I finally told him that the only way I would agree was if he took a club Pa28 and I would be in his aircraft (Beechcraft with retracts - this way round so he could not leave me behind), but he would not even see I was there, to my surprise he agreed and we set off, with me having given him a discrete frequency to set if I pulled up alongside. All went well initially - the interesting thing was, tucked up under his tail in line astern, I could tell EXACTLY when he got lost! He was actually still on track at this point but started to fly erratically, I pulled up alongside just before he went into controlled airspace.:{

So you CAN monitor with something not in the aircraft - but not one I would use often!

The daft thing was (and he had been briefed to do this if unsure of position) all he needed to do was turn due West and he would have safely reached the coast and been able to follow the coast back to home.:ugh:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Both of the schools I occasionally teach at gives all solo nav students a portable SPOT GPS tracking device. The intent is not to spy on the student it is to aid in locating a missing aircraft.

[riverrock83]

If your students are anything like me, then they will have the ability to track their own progress using their phone. I haven't pressed go on it every time but it has let me confirm in de-brief when I had got off track and acted as a memory tool, so I could discuss parts of the flight with my instructor. I've also used it to confirm to myself how far away from the correct circuit I've been in earlier lessons...

To me these things come down to trust. I've really enjoyed the freedom the solo navexes have given me and wouldn't have welcomed "big brother" watching me, but the additional information that I've voluntarily recorded has helped with de-briefs.

To answer the question - you appear to be able to buy a data logger from Amazon for £40 upwards (search for "GPS Data Logger"). They all allow you to export in kml or gpx format, which you can then load into google maps / google earth or another piece of software to view the output.

['India-Mike]

I recorded a dual navex using gps with a view to using it as a debrief tool.. I was disappointed to see that the graphical representation of the flight failed to capture those aspects of the student's flying that gave me cause for concern, such as poor height and heading control, especially when attention was divided between tasks such as flying straight and level and conducting checks. With sufficient resolution those aspects might have been caught but it's all smeared (filtered) out in the picture displayed by whatever software is being used to display the data the picture and the sample rate is insufficient. Now, a student who comes back 20 mins late wih 2 gallons less than plog fuel...that's much more of a debrief tool.

[chrisbl]

I;m with Cobalt on this. I have used the Wintec gps logger

WBT-201: Wintec WBT-201 Bluetooth Data Logger GPS: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

I introduced it on the dual navs. The students were keen to compare their evaluation of the flight with what the logger recorded. It does more than follow the track you get ground speed and altitude.

My students have liked having the device sit there passively and look forward to seeing how well they did.

For what its worth I first came across it on the TopNav competition run by the Royal Institute of Navigation. where its used to determine how well the teams complete the task.

[Whopity]

Such devices are ideal for competitions but the aim of a solo nav is not to see how well they did, its to gain valuable decision making experience with nobody else to help them. We live in a society that is obsessed with monitoring everything yet achieves virtually nothing!

[mad_jock]

To be honest they actually learn more if they make a complete and utter pigs ear of it than if everything went well.

[BEagle]

I agree with mad_jock and Whopity. There is absolutely no need for this 'spy in the cab'.

Students should have been adequately trained and prepared for their solo navigation exercises, so should be allowed just to get on with them without over supervision.

"I lied to my instructors when I was a solo student, I see no reason why they wouldn't lie to me now."


Frankly I'm appalled at such an admission of unacceptable integrity.

[B2N2]

Frankly I'm appalled at such an admission of unacceptable integrity.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

You're being a little sanctimonious here Beagle. :rolleyes:
I lied to my instructor about getting lost on my first solo nav, I told him everything went fine.
I assume my students tell me the truth most of the time. the other times are the ones I'd like to know about.

In an ideal situation people do not make mistakes and they do not have the occasional brain freeze, on a solo nav ex or on a skill test.
However in reality they will make mistakes, they are students.
I think that we have the obligation as teachers, instructors or mentors to be aware of everything that occurs, seen or unseen. Told or untold.
The student will still learn from their mistake, GPS monitored or not.
Besides, the replacement value of the airplane is $250K, I think I have a right to know what is going on.

[Pull what]

Quire right B2N2 plus some studes may not even know what happened between two points one of which they may have found more by luck than judgement

[lasseb]

I have used a very simple GPS logger app for my android during school flights.
(free, called GPS location).
All it does is store the data into a GPX file, that can be loaded into for example google maps. (in 3D. very cool 8))
I have only used it during dual training though. Partly just for the fun of it, but occasionally it proves its worth when debating various nav related issues. Of course if it's is to be used on solo nav I should either abandon my phone in the hands of a student (not going to happen) or the student should do the logging on his/hers smartphone.
I see no moral issue here if you just ask the student in advance if he/she is willing to use the logging. It could proove a valid tool later on.

[mad_jock]

I don't think any of us would object to a GPS logger being placed onboard with the full knowledge of the student.

If its a debrief tool not a problem.

Its the hiding something that grates. If you don't have confidence that the student isn't going to go off and do something daft you shouldn't be sending them out solo in the first place.

[Obi_Wan]

Spot on MJ.
"If you don't have confidence that the student isn't going to go off and do something daft you shouldn't be sending them out solo in the first place."