CFI-A give instruction to student/private pilot?

[Calicfi]

Dear fellow aviatiors,

During the last couple of weeks I've been thinking about FAR 61.195 where it states:
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

I work at a part 141 school where there is a lot of time building for the students during their instrument/commercial training.

My question: Can a Certified Flight Instructor with only airplane single engine land on his CFI Certificate and he got a Commercial Pilot Certificate with instrument rating on, fly IMC with students? Can he log instruction given? Can the student log the time?

I've heard from some CFI's that since it is not training towards the students instrument rating then it is ok. My personal opinion is that the training is towards his instrument OR instrument training for his commercial and therefore this should not be allowed.

Thoughts?

[sevenstrokeroll]

first off, simply call your nearest FSDO, flight standards district office, ask to speak to an inspector and ask him the question...you will get the actual answer.

now...remember, if you are giving instruction in a multi engine plane, but dont have a multi engine instructor cert, you can't log it

but, of great interest is this...since it is likelythat your student has a private pilot license and he can't fly on an IFR flight plan (since he isn't instrument rated) and YOU ARE INSTRUMENT rated, you can file the flight plan with YOUR name, and you are PIC, and can log it as such.

I think the actual problem is that a non CFII simply can't give instruction required by regulation for the instrument rating...it is specifically mentioned in the requirements for an instrument rating.

but, ask the FSDO guy and be sure

[Dmahan]

Calling the fsdo is the best advice anyone could give you on this.

I have my thoughts. Can you give a student pilot instrument training? Of course you can! You're required to. It can be either simulated or actual instrument conditions.

How is that different from the scenario you asked about? Other than it being a private pilot, it sounds the same to me.

Read the regs, you'll see that there is a minimum number of hours for the instrument rating that must ge given by a cfII. As long as that requirement is met, the remainder of the hours can be given by any CFI.

That's my take, but do check with the fsdo.

[B2N2]

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=32763,filename=spelling_police.jpg

Now, let's see if we can answer your question.
If you file IFR, you are PIC so what exactly would you be teaching the student?
Remember you cannot teach what you are not rated for.

On a side not two Multi instructors lost their certificates because they were time building with each other and both logging PIC Mulit, one as rated and instruction rceived and the other as rated MEI and instrction given.
Both had their certificates, all of them, revoked for logbook falsification.
The judge ruled on the following question: " how can you receive training if you are already a fully rated pilot in category and class?"
Multi? No
IFR? No, already rated
XC? No, already rated CPL

So the question is what exactly would you be teaching the student?
The answer is NO.
Keep in mind also that European students cannot log PIC time if they have an instructor on board. So if they are timebuilding towards their 100 hr PIC requirement for teh JAA/EASA CPL you are not doing them a favour by bumming rides and logging this.

I think I know what you fellow CFI's are doing; bumming rides so they can build their XC time towards their 500 hr ATP requirement.
:yuk:

[sevenstrokeroll]

ok...european stuff...well the asker was from california.

AS far as a JUDGE taking away certificates...never heard of it.

OF course you can give multi engine instruction, and receive it and if multi rated you can log PIC and if MEI you can log instruction given/pic.

imagine...YOU have a commerical multi instrument...you have flown piper seneca and have 20 hours....your instructor needs 5 hours PIC in any multi plane to give instruction and he has it and is instructing you in a piper seminole...YOU both get PIC time

yup...its nuts, I don't buy it...but it is true.

as to CFI and instrument stuff...there is a specific number of things you need instruction from a CFII in order to be signed off for your check ride...those things have to be done by a CFII. However...just building instrument time is different.

NOW, I have seen some CRAP pulled. for example! I was PIC in an MU2 and I had a SO CALLED copilot, yet the type does not require a copilot. And he was a multi instructor...and even though I didn't let him LAND TH EPLANE he claimed he had the five hours PIC in the plane and was GIVING ME INSTRUCTION.

sheeesh! and he is now a captain at american airlines.....on crappy log time like that!

[sevenstrokeroll]

as to cross country time, I remember when P3 Orion patrol plane pilots would fly out of Moffett NAS, fly over the ocean for many hours and come back. At first they were not allowed to count this as cross country time, even though they may have gone 1000 miles out to sea.

eventually the FAA changed its view and allowed these guys to use this towards the atp.

[B2N2]

Sevenstrokeroll, bring something better next time.

To the original poster, here is a partial explanation from FAA Chief council

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Haralson.pdf

Students can log the XC time under IFR as pilot-in-command.
However, this in under Part 61.
if you are training under Part 141 a syllabus (TCO) solo flight needs to be solo not with a bag-packing instructor trying to justify it by "providing instruction" for which they are not rated.
61.195
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

As far as a judge taking away certificates:

The Administrative Law Judges conduct formal hearings and issue initial decisions on appeals by airmen filed with the Safety Board. The NTSB serves as the "court of appeals" for any airman, mechanic or mariner whenever certificate action is taken by the Federal Aviation Administration or the U.S. Coast Guard Commandant, or when civil penalties are assessed by the FAA
Legal - NTSB - National Transportation Safety Board (http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj.html)

And here is the ruling on two Multi engine instructors losing their certificates
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4008.PDF
The falsification charges resulted from the examination of
both respondents' logbooks by FAA aviation inspector Donald
Bennett during the investigation of an accident that occurred on
10 April 1992 involving respondents' Piper Apache aircraft. The
inspector testified that the two logbooks were mirror-images of
each other for over 200 flights. Both respondents were listed as
pilot-in-command (PIC) for these flights and it was unclear when,
whether, and what type of flight instruction was given.

The CFI needs to document the training, they are specifically not allowed to instruct for a rating which they do not hold on their CFI so apart from the 15 hrs. required to be with a CFII the other time can only be flown with a CFI if the CFI is not instructing but only acting as a safety pilot.

And here is the FAA legal interpretation:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-3.pdf

The FAA has consistently interpreted § 61.195( c) to permit instrument training only by a
flight instructor who has an instrument rating on the flight instructor certificate and on the
commercial or air transport pilot certificate. See Legal Interpretation to Taylor Grayson
(Jan. 4, 2010); Legal Interpretation to Tom A. Drake (Aug. 7, 1997). The FAA has
distinguished instrument training from training in "basic instrument maneuvers" under §
61.107 and training in the "control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to the
instruments" under § 61.109 necessary for private pilot certificate. See Grayson
Interpretation. However, those exceptions are inapplicable in the context of training for an
instrument rating because generally the pilot seeking an instrument rating already has a
private pilot certificate. Accordingly, any training provided to a pilot seeking an instrument
rating (including instrument training in addition to the minimum training required under
61.65(d)(2)) would be instrument training, and the CFI providing that training must have an
instrument rating on the flight instructor and pilot certificates.

[sevenstrokeroll]

let the original poster call up the FSDO and report back to us.

[B2N2]

And if he ever does the answer should be the same.
A legal ruling/interpretation of FAA council takes precedence over the "opinion" of a FSDO inspector.

Here is the catch-22 of a FAA inspector; on even simple questions the inspector should answer "maybe, I need to get back to you" in order to research any rulings or interpretations on that specific subject matter.

If an FAA inspector recites from memory or from previous experience he/she runs the risk of providing outdated or even superceded information on which the inquirer now acts.

Here you can find rulings on specifics, it works better if you search on regulation number (ie 61.129) rather then word query:
Regulations Division - Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/Interpretations/)

Forgot to add; if there is no ruling on the matter then the FAA (or FSDO) inspector's opinion comes into play.
In which case it is wise to write down the inspector's name and the date/time for future reference in case the matter is ever questioned.
It is not unusual for one regional office or FSDO to rule (slightly) differently the the neighboring FSDO in which case something that would be accepted in one would be frowned upon in the other jurisdiction.

CYA as they call it in industry terms.......................:suspect:

[sevenstrokeroll]

one thing to agree upon is that one FSDO or Air Carrier District Office could disagree with another one just a few hundred miles away.

I flew for one airline with one ACDO who ruled one way on departing to an airport below mins but forecast to do better...our competition had a different aCDO and they ruled exactly opposite.

so we departed, they didn't...the wx got better and we got in while they were still waiting at departure point...

we shall see...quite frankly the best advice is to get your CFII asap

[Check Airman]

Sure you can log the time. It just doesn't count towards the 15hr of instrument training required.