A Sukhoi superjet 100 is missing

[G-V]

A Sukhoi Superjet 100 is missing in Indonesia while being on the demo flight.

44 souls on board. :uhoh:

[akerosid]

It's being reported that a Sukhoi Superjet has disappeared during a demonstration flight in Indonesia, during an Asian sales tour for the aircraft.

According to reports, the aircraft had left for what was to have been a 30 minute demonstration flight; after 3 hours (by which time fuel should have been exhausted), the alarm was raised.

More to follow ...

[JackRalston]

Link to BBC page: BBC News - Russian passenger jet reported missing in Indonesia (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18004097)

[rubik101]

Russian Plane in Jakarta Disappears from Radar Screen | Russia | RIA Novosti (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120509/173333864.html)

[hetfield]

It got permission to descend from an altitude of 10,000 feet down to 6,000, moving downwards in a rightward direction. According to the official, there is a 6,200 foot-high mountain in the area where the plane went missing.

Russia (http://rt.com/news/sukhoi-superjet-disappears-radar-838/)

[Kulverstukas]

Sergey Dolya� | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/SergeyDolya.ru)

"It was second demo flight today, first was completed without any issue. Plane was checked before flight. Copter returned recently, found nothing."

[JackRalston]

Russia (http://rt.com/news/sukhoi-superjet-disappears-radar-838/)

[Teddy Robinson]

A media driven non-statement if there ever was one.

[JackRalston]

Must agree with TwoOneFour and Teddy Robinson. Descending to 6000ft in a mountainous range is also a bit sketchy.

[Liftboy]

Crash: Sukhoi SU95 over Indonesia on May 9th 2012, aircraft missing (http://avherald.com/h?article=44f464f7&opt=0)

[AucT]

The last RCOM was a pilot's request to descent from 3000 meteres to 2000 meteres in the area where mountains with height in excess of 2000 meters.

Известно, что лайнер пропал с радаров после запроса на снижение с 3 тысяч до 2 тысяч метров. Самолет в этот момент находился на расстоянии порядка 100 километров от аэропорта. Известно, что в районе снижения самолета была гора, высота которой составляет свыше 2 тысяч метров.

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/05/09/superjet/

[Flightmech]

Unusual request. Let's hope it wasn't sightseeing or a photo opportunity gone wrong on a demo-flight. Just saying, not concluding.

[Kulverstukas]

By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, May 9th 2012 10:31Z, last updated Wednesday, May 9th 2012 11:03Z
A Sukhoi Sukhoi Superjet 100-95, registration RA-97004 performing a demonstration flight from Jakarta Halim Perdanakusuma Airport to Jakarta Halim Perdanakusuma Airport (Indonesia) with 36 passengers, 6 crew and 2 Sukhoi officials, was enroute near Mount Salak and Bogor about 36nm south of Jakarta about 30 minutes into the flight when the radio contact with the aircraft was lost. The aircraft has not turned up at Jakarta or any other airport in the area and would have run out of fuel by now.

No ELT signal has been located so far.

Indonesian Authorities reported the aircraft was enroute at 10,000 feet near Mount Salak when at about 15:30L (08:30Z) the crew requested and was cleared to descend to 6,000 feet. This proved to be the last radio transmission. Radar contact was lost when the aircraft was in a right hand turn descending through 6,200 feet. A search operation has been initiated and is mounting, first search flights have not yet found any trace of the aircraft.

Mount Salak is 2,211 meters/7254 feet high.

The local weatherstation in Bogor reported visibility at 9000 meters (increasing to 10000 meters in the next reading), temperature at 31 degrees C, dew point at 25 degrees C, humidity 70% and winds arund 5 knots from northeast, no precipitation. In the morning the weatherstation had reported low visibility around about 2000 meters.

PS from me: Dolya mentioned that there was low clouds the whole day.

[Massey058]

I'm perplexed that there was a request to descend to 6000 feet in that area. The visibility has been particularly bad the last couple of days as well.

Really hope there are some survivors.

[ChicoG]

Now reported as 46 souls on board.

the Russian Embassy’s press attaché, Dmitri Solodov told the Post that the aircraft was on its second demo flight when its signal was lost from the radar.

He said that there were 46 people onboard the airliner including eight Russians. The passengers are believed to be members of the media.

[Efe Cem Elci]

Apparently many reporters and airline executives on board due to it being a promotional flight...

[macdo]

pained to say it, but this sounds like a CFIT in the making. I've operated around this area for several years and its easy to get it fatally wrong.

[ChicoG]

Talk about a poorly timed press release....

Pakistan may buy new Sukhoi superjets
Moscow, May 9 2012, (IANS/RIA Novosti):

Pakistan's Air Indus airline has shown interest in buying eight Sukhoi Superjet 100 airplanes, the Russian manufacturer said Wednesday.

"The client is interested in purchasing eight new SSJ-100 planes, and get three of them in 2013," Sukhoi Civil Aircraft senior vice president Igor Syrtsov said.

Russia will export 10 SSJ-100 airplanes in 2012. The planes will be delivered to Mexico, Indonesia, and Laos in the second half of the year. One plane has been exported this year to Armenia.

The Superjet 100 is a medium-haul passenger aircraft developed by Sukhoi in cooperation with US and European aviation corporations, including Boeing, Snecma, Thales, Messier Dowty, Liebherr Aerospace and Honeywell.

The aircraft is capable of carrying up to 100 passengers for up to 4,500 km. Sukhoi has received over 200 firm orders for Superjet 100 airliners so far.

[Kulverstukas]

Apparently many reporters and airline executives on board due to it being a promotional flight

Sukhoi sales head was onboard :(

[ericthepilot]

How does the ground proximity warning work on this aircraft ?
Which satellites does it navigate off? Russian or US GPS based ?
Radar inop to determine terrain ?

[aseanaero]

PS from me: Dolya mentioned that there was low clouds the whole day

I don't know about Bogor but the weather wasn't flash at Halim this afternoon.

Chappy Hakim (ex Chief of Indo Air Force) was on TV at 6.30pm saying no SAR possible this evening due to bad weather in Bogor

[Kulverstukas]

Somebody (?) tweeted from one of the passenger name:

https://twitter.com/#!/aremookephy

[View From The Ground]

Update: Indonesian Airline Reps Aboard Missing Russian Plane | The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/update-indonesian-airline-reps-aboard-missing-russian-plane/516946)

Apparently list of passengers published at Halim Airport

Looks like some Airline representatives from Indonesian Carriers and journalists.

Although looking unlikely hope that this does not turn out as bad as it looks

[W2k]

Somebody (?) tweeted from one of the passenger name:

https://twitter.com/#!/aremookephy

Google Translate on the last few tweets yields:


Nicholas Martyshenko here too, carried pic.twitter.com/dxi30I9P (http://t.co/Jr9r0wkt)
all a bit scared, but the flight attendants take care of all professional, calm pic.twitter.com/dxi30I9P (http://t.co/dxi30I9P)
(Name), we are on board, we can not communicate with anyone, just my work twitter
(Name), everything is fine with the Superjet-100, I was on board, they say just a communication problem


The last one is just an hour old (as of now) so well after the Superjet was reported missing. So seems to be good news, if true. One of the comments on the latter photo suggests the interior shot is from a different type of aircraft.

[grimmrad]

SLF asking:
Why do you know it is from someone on board - and what does the tweet say?

[View From The Ground]

More links from the local press

Be warned one names the crew

Three locals 'saw and heard missing aircraft' | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/09/3-locals-reportedly-saw-and-heard-aircraft.html)

Crew of missing Sukhoi Superjet 100 airliner named | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/09/russian-crews-aboard-missing-sukhoi-superjet-100-aircraft.html)

Sukhoi Superjet missing over Mt. Salak | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/09/sukhoi-superjet-missing-over-mt-salak.html)

[Kulverstukas]

http://f2.s.qip.ru/DKMgABBu.jpg
Sergey Dolya ‏ @dolyasergey
Trajectory of flight of the plane. It flew around the mountain and then abruptly changed a course and began sharp decrease where black arrows are

[Kulverstukas]

Gerry Soejatman ‏ @GerryS (https://twitter.com/#!/GerryS)

SSJ100 crash site reported found by SAR heli just prior to aborting due to bad weather. No info on survivors. Awaiting official word.

[blueirishPDX]

all a bit scared, but the flight attendants take care of all professional, calm pic.twitter.com/dxi30I9P ... One of the comments on the latter photo suggests the interior shot is from a different type of aircraft.

That pic is certainly not consistent with other pics I've seen of the Superjet's interior. It appears to be more consistent with a 154 as mentioned in the comments.

@aremookephy, I feel, is a fake.

[aseanaero]

I know a few people on board through business dealings :-(

A close friend of mine is waiting on news on his colleagues at HLP , no news yet

[fullforward]

Not the best start for the only EMB 195 competitor!...
:(

[aseanaero]

Sergey Dolya ‏ @dolyasergey
Trajectory of flight of the plane. It flew around the mountain and then abruptly changed a course and began sharp decrease where black arrows are

Where did the info for this map come from ?

[JohnieWalker]

From Sergey Dolya | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/SergeyDolya.ru) , quite famous Russian blogger, this time probably part of media team from Sukhoi side covering the demo flight.

Let us hope for the best...

[northerntomcat]

I would think S and R would have spotted fire by now as it is now dark.And what about an EPIRB or ELT anyone know if it was equipped?

[sevenstrokeroll]

altimetry problem, setting? misunderstood meters and feet? CFIT does seem right

now, I've never flown in that country...in the USA IFR rules are 2000 FEET above mountinous terrain

if mountain was 7,200 feet...9,200 feet would be min (round up to 10,000 maybe).

does anyone remember the air new zealand crash in antartica? hmmmm

[aseanaero]

Without pre-empting anything experienced local pilots who know that area have come to grief in the past , there's some big mountains out there and the weather can change quickly and get violent.

Add to the fact the crew isn't local ...

[Carbon Bootprint]

A number of sources are now reporting there were 50 persons aboard the flight.

News article (http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/russian-plane-with-50-1434095.html)

[mathers_wales_uk]

Transportation Ministry air transport director general has not confirmed the Suhoi Superjet 100 to have crasjed because the body of the aircraft and it's passengers have not yet been found

Article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=5149&action=edit&message=6&postpost=v2)

[aseanaero]

google maps gunung salak - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=google+maps+gunung+salak&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x2e69cdfcdfbede69:0xa301d1cba53c79fa,Mt+Salak&t=p&ei=royqT5n_LcvKrAfXlq2mDQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CEoQ8gEwAA)

Although close to a major town (Bogor) you can see on this map that the 2 mountains (Salak and Pangrango) are very remote and rugged. I've been off roading in this area (the much smaller mountain gunung bunder to the north) and there's some very wild country out there.

There's a major air force helicopter base 30kms away , if they weren't flying this afternoon looking for the aircraft it says something about the weather around those mountains.

The map posted before showed the aircraft lost contact in the vicinity of Mt Pangrango , the bigger of the 2.

[stonevalley]

i know this area well. I hope it did not crash onto the hundreds of little hamlets in the valley

[Efe Cem Elci]

Twitter account of Russian blogger covering the plane's promotional flights: Sergey Dolya (@dolyasergey) on Twitter (http://twitter.com/dolyasergey)
His Twitpic account: Twitpic / dolyasergey (http://twitpic.com/photos/dolyasergey)
His photo album for the trip: MobileMe Gallery (http://gallery.me.com/sdolya#102194&...r=black&sel=54)

If we have indeed lost this plane, which seems highly probable now, there are a lot of photos in that last link that will be the last those people have had taken...

[aseanaero]

he is the one of the passenger...his BBM status yes, @ Sukhoi demo... he's not answering my bbm...

I just got this message, nobody I know can contact the pax on the demo flight

[billybuds]

If you look at the pic of the overhead panel, does it look like the ELT is switched off.......

[Flightmech]

If you look at the pic of the overhead panel, does it look like the ELT is switched off.......

It looks "Armed" to me? Probably a normal position.

[billybuds]

Yep your right, was looking at the wrong switch.

[cressidom]

AseanAero..just maybe you and I are referring to the same person.

[aseanaero]

Sketchy details but I just heard from an unofficial source they found the wreck at 3,000ft near a waterfall on Gunung Salak , we will probably get official details in the morning.

I have some other details but I will wait now for the official version but it doesn't sound good.

[RTM Boy]

Reuters reporting nothing official yet - just notes 50 on board

[A-FLOOR]

If you look at the pic of the overhead panel, does it look like the ELT is switched off.......I'm more worried about the disabled TAWS...

[Flightmech]

I'm more worried about the disabled TAWS...

I have no knowledge of this aircraft systems but the fault lights for TAWS maybe a normal indication with the IRS/ADIRU (insert equivalent) system turned off on the ground.

[aseanaero]

Local Sukhoi agent says 42 pax and 8 crew


50 people on board missing Sukhoi airliner | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/09/50-people-board-missing-sukhoi-airliner.html)

“We have the passengers’ list, but we have to double check since some of the invitees failed to go on board and some others, who are on board, are not listed in the invitee list,”

So basically they really don't know who is on board

[PENKO]

If the system is similar to that on other aircraft (Airbus) then there is no need to switch the GPWS system off, unless for a specific non-routine reason. The fault lights are not that interesting to me on the ground, the off light all the more(thanks for pointing that out A Floor). Again, assuming that the system is similar to what I know.

Anyway, we will have to wait a few months or years for the investigation.
Very sobering pictures.

[A-FLOOR]

I have no knowledge of this aircraft systems but the fault lights for TAWS maybe a normal indication with the IRS/ADIRU (insert equivalent) system turned off on the ground.I am aware of that, the external power may have just been applied to the aircraft which meant the TAWS computer would still have been booting when the pic was taken, but that would not explain why the TERR function was switched off.... as far as I know, this is not normally done. The picture was also taken today, the 9th of May.

[Flightmech]

but that would not explain why the TERR function was switched off

Maybe as it was a demo aircraft it didn't have a terrain database installed for that region, or would it normally be part of the FMS database in which case it probably would have??

[storm_eagle]

Superjet International released a statement on their website

Superjet International (http://www.superjetinternational.com/)

[up_down_n_out]

"The leading-edge technologies, being the core ingredient of the Sukhoi Superjet 100 Project, penetrate its every stage – from design and development to final assembly, delivering a modern, economically efficient and globally marketable aircraft. "

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Civil aviation - Sukhoi Superjet 100 (http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/ssj100/)

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - News - News (http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/?id=4846)

Being as there are/were great hopes to make a new BRIC based multinational aviation project, this incident couldn't come at a worse moment, irrespective of the fatalities, eventual causes, ?human? errors.

Next after the initial quake will come the tsunami of speculation and disinformation. :uhoh:

[hetfield]

The real "culture" of Sukhoi comes alive, if nothing, absolutely nothing, is mentioned on their page...

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Main page (http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/)

[JSCL]

I suppose I can only throw out the suggestion of disgruntled employee sabotage or opposition sabotage. Definitely not what I'd expect from this crew. Have met both members of the flight deck of this crash a few months back, both solid pilots, I wouldn't jump to questioning their ability. Have been on a Sukhoi SJET test flight - a sturdy craft indeed. I think we need to shy away from the usual 'Russian plane - it was bound to crash' and blaming ATC. I suggest some interesting things will come out of the investigation to follow.

[Kulverstukas]

Gerry Soejatman ‏ @GerryS
@e_kirsanova @matyaboy @dolyasergey Not surprised. I got news that crash site found w/ aircraft split in two and bodies strewn! Not happy!

[hetfield]

Mishap of Russian aircraft in Indonesien airspace......

What do you think will ever be published?

_______________________________

wrong spelling I guess...

[Ptkay]

The terrain elevation of the last known radar position is 1541 m.
(Google)

[Kulverstukas]

Dolya wrote "Copters will depart at 3:30 MSK (23:30 GMT), it's 10 min flight. No comments until then, don't call me, please."

[captplaystation]

Something very strange then, "aircraft split in two", & not "aircraft fragmented into several thousand pieces" Jet Transports do not normally arrive on mountainsides in 2 bits :hmm:

[deSitter]

Good grief, was this possibly fuel depletion??

[aseanaero]

Agree with CaptPlaystation , it sounds strange but thats the message I received also

[aseanaero]

Revised list released

Daftar Nama 50 Penumpang Sukhoi - KOMPAS.com (http://regional.kompas.com/read/2012/05/10/01475165/Daftar.Nama.50.Penumpang.Sukhoi)

[glenbrook]

Isn't it a bit premature to be publishing a passenger list? It hasn't even been confirmed to have crashed. Also some of those names look fishy. There seems to have been a "Kapt Aan" on board.

[aseanaero]

Aan is a common name here and also common to have one name with no surname

[hetfield]

At 14:50, it was recorded as dropping from 10,000ft [3,000m] to 6,000ft near Salak, a peak measuring 7,200ft (2,200m).14:50 = 07:50 GMT, so almost 12 hrs ago....near the capital Jakarta..................

What country is that?
:ugh:

[glenbrook]

Yes, but the Russian names are surnames only. It's pointless and causes needless stress to publish an inaccurate list.

[aseanaero]

It's common with the media here , some of the names on the list are spelt incorrectly as well

Anyway from what I heard this evening they know where the crash site is and the crash is severe , so far nobody I know has been able to contact pax, if the weathers good they'll have helis there in the morning so I would expect an official announcement tomorrow once they have the facts.

What would cause a 3 year old demonstrator to crash with factory test pilots at the controls ? I keep thinking of that Airbus that flew into the trees years ago, finding some little unexpected 'got ya' in the fly by wire system software by flying around mountains perhaps ? ... also if you had to pick a spot in West Java for the worst most unpredictable weather it would have to be those mountains and valleys near Bogor.

All speculation , we'll get some more clues in the next few days and a final report 2 or 3 years from now

Here's what these particular mountains look like , covered in thick jungle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Salak.JPG

File:Mount Salak.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Salak.JPG)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Gede_00.jpg

File:Mount Gede 00.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Gede_00.jpg)

[captplaystation]

The last time a Russian aircraft crashed, the first priority seemed to be a Press Release detailing the "generous" compensation offered to victims families.

Cultural differences and all that. :rolleyes:

[justanotherflyer]

@JSCL

I suppose I can only throw out the suggestion of disgruntled employee sabotage or opposition sabotage.

By "throw out", do you mean "dismiss", or do you mean "proffer the idea of sabotage with no evidence whatsoever"?

The former, I hope.

[barit1]

It's common with the media here , some of the names on the list are spelt incorrectly as well

Not too unusual in flyover country, either. :rolleyes:

[northerntomcat]

And now there is this from the New york times: As the Superjet entered production, the Russian television station NTV reported that 70 engineers at the manufacturing plant had obtained fake engineering diplomas by bribing a local technical college. Sukhoi said those employees were not directly involved in assembling the planes.

If this is true oh oh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/world/asia/russian-aircraft-vanishes-from-radar-during-promotional-flight.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[JSCL]

@justanotherflyer

The latter I'm afraid. It's one of a gazillion possibilities which as I said we will not know the actual reasoning until a thorough investigation has been carried out. But based on past reports as @northerntomcat has specified in the last post there, it's a possibility. I sure hope that is not the case, but it wouldn't be the first time in aviation history.

[storm_eagle]

I think that NY Times is just using this accident for political marketing against Russia. Maybe they just forgot to mention other companies involved in this project like Boeing, Alenia, Snecma... When accident happened only Sukhoi is to blame.

Lets wait for official statement and then we can judge. Right now we only have rumors and personal opinions without all facts. Personally i don't think that a sabotage or technical failure was cause of the accident. But as i said we will have to wait for more info.

[TWT]

Well said storm eagle.....

[stepwilk]

Interesting how these threads about aviation catastrophes precede along relatively intelligently for about three pages, typically brief discussions between professionals, and then at about page four, the hysteria begins. The SLFs begin to chime in with their inept theorizing, the Microsofties ruminate about how they'd have handled the situation with their keyboards, the conspiracy theorists appear out of the aluminum... These threads have a definable half-life, and it begins to come apart at this point.

[n5296s]

SLFs begin to chime in with their inept theorizing
My observation would be that the professionals need absolutely no help in this regard, based for example on the numerous AF447 threads. You did however forget the PPrune invariant, that within two pages any discussion turns into A vs B bashing. Hard to see how that will happen here but I'm sure it will anyway.

[OddballM4]

SLFs begin to chime in with their inept theorizing

As a long time lurker I won't argue with all your observations on thread arcs; but as an SLF with long-standing interest in aviation accident forensics* I'll chime in anyway. :}

Could this be a case of running afoul of a mountain rotor while sightseeing, a'la BOAC 911 and Mt. Fuji in the 60's?

Back to lurking....

* As a wee lad I was always fascinated by the forensic details teased out of bent metal and recorders as reported in the AvWeeks that Dad would bring home from his IT (or whatever they called it back then) job with EAL.

[alouette]

It is already bad enough as it is. The question however is why would someone descend to below mountain elevation to increase the risk of a CFIT? Everything from then on is speculation.:(

[RiSq]

The Journalist who has been covering the flight info is keeping his tweeter updated for the latest images and info.

I don't speak Russian, but maybe someone can translate?

https://wwww.twitter.com/#!/dolyasergey (https://wwww.twitter.com/#%21/dolyasergey)

[JohnieWalker]

Basically it's about waiting for hellys to depart and rechecking possible SAR locations.

P.S Nothing on topic of location/status of a/c unfortunately :(

[Airbubba]

Looks like a military SAR helo has launched from the latest post on Sergey's blog.

[mickjoebill]

Photographer and others on the flight deck whilst airborn (apparently) on an earlier flight.
How would you rate this scene in terms of a distraction that is capable of effecting flight safety..?
MobileMe Gallery (http://gallery.me.com/sdolya#102194/20120508_ssjroadshow_356&bgcolor=black)



Apparently showing a few minor dents on a leading edge.
MobileMe Gallery (http://gallery.me.com/sdolya#102194/20120508_ssjroadshow_348&bgcolor=black)

[stonevalley]

Why would he descend? Why not

Perhaps to enhance the experience of the passengers/buyers to make it memorable?

Salak is a striking volcano with twin summits cleft by a large valley with steep slopes and a whitewater river running through it with several waterfalls.

I know someone who flew a G-IV at 300 feet around part of the coast line of Borneo for the VVIP on onboard.

[lomapaseo]

Apparently showing a few minor dents on a leading edge.
MobileMe Gallery (http://gallery.me.com/sdolya#102194/20120508_ssjroadshow_348&bgcolor=black)



Bird strike damage, nothing of import

[TylerMonkey]

For Russian to English translations follow @athensoh on the twit.

[stonevalley]

According to officials, they are searching three areas on Salak, including the crater, which is quite small.

Four Super Pumas are on the way apparently

[Massey1Bravo]

Mr Dolya just said on Tweeter that the helicopters had found the plane.

[TylerMonkey]

Elevation 5200 ft. at gps position of crash was tweeted.

[gottofly]

CNN reporting wreckage of plane found near MT.SALAK .......REMOTE AREA of west java.the Indonesian minister made a brief report mentioning the news but no news on survivor or any other details were provided.

[stonevalley]

Search officail said location is on the edge of a cliff on Mt.
Salak near Cijeruk.

Its not that remote, I was around there in February but a landbased SAR party would take several hours to reach it depending on conditions. Airborne SAR could be there in minutes easily

[archae86]

Sergey's blog has retweeted an assertion that the site is at:

06.42.61.3S 106.44.41.2E

Google Earth gives the terrain height at that location as about 6330 feet above sea level. While the summit is several hundred feet higher, this is pretty high up the slope.

[Later edit: to push the rather odd coordinate representation to something Google Earth could accept I substituted spaces for the first two periods, thinking of dd mm ss.s. I failed at to notice that this meant I was asking for 61.3 seconds! Worse, I failed to notice the truncation Google Earth performed. In short, while I accurately transcribed the coordinates as tweeted, including format, my Google Earth-derived estimate of local terrain elevation is almost certainly spurious. ZeeDoktor's suggestion of the intended coordinate seems a better attempt at translation, though I can't say I can match the site photos to that spot.]

[ZeeDoktor]

Assuming the coordinates are S 06 42.613 and E 106 44.412, this is the position:

S6.7102 E106.7402 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=S6.7102+E106.7402&hl=en&sll=-6.698707,106.749001&sspn=0.273465,0.32135&t=h&z=13)

[Massey1Bravo]

@ZeeDoktor

If your coordinates are correct the elevation at that point is ~1837m (According to Google Earth) which translates to 6027ft.

[stonevalley]

IF that Google map position is correct, I guess he was seduced by the dramatic scenery. Did he attempt to fly along the axis of the cleft valley?

I was in the lower part of the valley last year and the slopes further up looked to be 70deg if not more

[andrasz]

Dolya posted the first photos of the accident site:
Twitpic / dolyasergey (http://twitpic.com/photos/dolyasergey)

Impact into a near vertical cliff just under a ridge - very reminescent of the Norwegin herc location, here jungle substituting snow.

If the flight path circling the mountain posted yesterday is correct, it appears to be a case of a low level scenic flight gone wrong. Have been on various manufacturer demonstration flights myself, maneouvres that would not be permissible on a revenue passenger service are routinely performed to impress the press and potential buyers.

[Massey1Bravo]

Better Pics:

Source:
https://twitter.com/#!/lystseva/status/200437506372665344/photo/1/large
https://twitter.com/#!/lystseva/status/200438575190392832/photo/1/large

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8305/asgy2z9caaepnlh.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3976/asgz0nncqaarwr3.jpg

[andrasz]

I should think that visibility was not zero. However cloud cover on such tropical mountains is very dynamic, clouds can form and shift places literally in seconds. I can easily envision that they were visually aiming for a low pass over the ridge, which became overcast in the last seconds of the flight.

It seems like another lesson learnt the hard way...

[macklin]

Found this link:

Crash: Sukhoi SU95 over Indonesia on May 9th 2012, aircraft impacted mountain (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44f464f7&opt=0)

[FullWings]

Crash site looks very similar to the one of Airblue 202 at Islamabad two years ago.

[aseanaero]

It is going to be a hell of a job recovering victims and salvaging components at that site , almost a vertical cliff and dense jungle

[jackx123]

Although the name Sukhoi is russian, there is not much russian in the aircraft considering all subsystems including:

Thales (avionics)
Liebherr (with Teploobmennik OJSC and PMZ Voskhod JSC) (Flight Control Systems)
Messier-Dowty (landing gear)
Intertechnique (Zodiac) (fuel system)
BE Aerospace (interior)
Curtiss-Wright Controls (fire protection system)
Honeywell (APU)
IPECO (crew seats)
Parker Hannifin (hydraulic system)
Hamilton Sundstrand (electrical system)
Meggitt Vibro-Meter (engine vibration sensor)
Saint-Gobain Sully (windows)
AeroCell (Nacelles and Thrust Reverser)
SAMCO (Passenger and Cargo doors)
Goodrich Corporation, Aircelle (engine nacelle)

All components are operating worldwide in thousands of flights daily without problems, so it seems it's not a hull related crash.

[Loose rivets]

Can we rely on the sighting of two fuselage parts?

At a first glance, it looks like an impact into the vertical face, but there are two conflicting pieces of information:

One is the said sighting of bits of fuselage, and the other is the GooEarth pic showing an initial impact site. Could it be the main picture is of an impact at an extreme attitude . . . the bulk of the aircraft then sliding down with parts still in tact?

[onetrack]

There's not going to be much need for an extensive investigation, by the look of those pics. Mark another one down to "cumulus graniteis".
It appears maybe another 200' in elevation and they'd have cleared the ridge - with perhaps just a "brown corduroy trousers" moment.
That country looks very unforgiving, it looks just like a lot of PNG. Not the best way to go about filling an order book.
My sympathies to friends and relatives of the deceased.

[ChicoG]

http://images.theage.com.au/2012/05/10/3284893/gk-sukhoi4_20120510141416249039-420x0.jpg

If the image function works on PP, this should show the crash site.

[ironbutt57]

Having done a short internship with the NTSB many many moons ago and been to many CFIT accidents, it never ceases to amaze me how many occur within less than 100' of passing over the obstacle...:confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

There's not going to be much need for an extensive investigation, by the look of those pics. Mark another one down to "cumulus graniteis".

Investigation complete. :cool:

The question the real aviators now want to know is...why?

All components are operating worldwide in thousands of flights daily without problems, so it seems it's not a hull related crash.
If htey are assmebled and interfaced together properly...

[PJ2]

As someone has commented, the impact point can be seen quite readily - slight bank to the right, it appears. Perhaps the beginning of an avoidance manoeuvre or just coincidental?

The question concerning the TAWS was raised earlier, and now will be among the first questions asked regarding system operation, performance and crew response. Whether the sharp turn to the left, shown on a map earlier in the thread, actually occurred is something to find out. If it occurred, why? Finding out the visibility is another obvious question.

Finding the recorders is certainly critical. Hoping they're readable is another matter.

It makes Sergey Dolya's fine series of photographs of the crew, passengers, the airplane now very poignant.

[aseanaero]

As you can see in this photo Mt Salak can be clear on one side and totally socked in on the other side

File:Mount Salak.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Salak.JPG)

[Sqwak7700]

Finding the recorders is certainly critical. Hoping they're readable is another matter.

Well, not so sure. Keep in mind this is a Russian aircraft in Indonesia of all places. How much faith in those investigative agencies do you have?

I would not be surprised that since was not a commercial flight, they bury the whole thing and make it a private matter.

Honestly, I really doubt we will ever have a credible investigation on this one.

[jackx123]

If htey are assmebled and interfaced together properly...

Assembly is made by the subsystem supplier.

If there is an interface problem I suppose there will be a system malfunction on the ground.....and the hull/system has passed the test flight and many more hours.

After all Sukhoi consults with Boeing on design, manufacturing, certification and quality system, supplier management and in addition Boeing is a representative to the technical board.

Me thinks it's human related unfortunately.

[robdean]

Having done a short internship with the NTSB many many moons ago and been to many CFIT accidents, it never ceases to amaze me how many occur within less than 100' of passing over the obstacle...


Erm... I guess most CFIT incidents occur when a situation of 'only just avoiding impact' sneaks across into 'only just not avoiding impact'! Historically this has often boiled down to 'can't see the ground, but a few feet lower and maybe...'

[maxho]

How much faith in those investigative agencies do you have?Question is, how familiar are you with these agencies to make such a statement?

Of all air safety investigative agencies, Russian MAK is one of the most thorough and professional, but sadly they won't be leading this one, as their jurisdiction is only within "air transport", not flying conducted by manufacturers for testing or marketing.

[robdean]

Honestly, I really doubt we will ever have a credible investigation on this one.
Frankly this already looks like CFIT whilst likely flying outside commercial flight safety procedures. Given that this is a major new-model aircraft (huge investment, big sales push) the obvious conclusion looks like the one least prejudicial to the vested interests. Thus they would be idiots not to make a big show of this being an impartial and transparent investigation. It carries a small risk of evidence leading in an unexpected direction, but less risk (given appearances so far) than if they seem to be hiding something. That could kill the whole project.

[jetjockey696]

9:53am May 10, 2012

Indonesian rescuers Thursday spotted the wreckage of a missing Russian Sukhoi Superjet that disappeared in mountainous terrain during a demonstration flight with about 50 people aboard.

“The Sukhoi has been found just now,” said Ketut Parwa, search and rescue agency chief for Jakarta, who was coordinating operations. “There is debris spotted by the helicopter, [we have] confirmed it is from the Sukhoi,” he said.

National search and rescue chief Daryatmo said the helicopter’s pilot had spotted wreckage including the Sukhoi logo on the ground.

“We spotted the fragments at the coordinates where we lost contact with the plane,” he told a news conference.

Ali Umri Lubis, spokesman for the search helicopter’s military airbase, said the plane was spotted in the Cijeruk area, near the dormant volcano Mount Salak, close to the city of Bogor in West Java.

Cijeruk is in a mountainous area 2,000 meters above sea level, 80 kilometers southeast of Jakarta. Indonesian officials have said the Sukhoi descended to about 6,000 feet shortly before it vanished.

Juanda, a 41-year-old villager, said he was feeding his chickens on Wednesday when he heard a roar overhead.

“I looked up and saw a huge white plane moving unsteadily just slightly below the mountain summit. It was still way above the trees but veering left and right, and then it disappeared,” he told AFP by telephone from Tenjolaya district, near Mount Salak.

“I heard a sound like firecrackers, but I couldn’t see it anymore.”

By midnight Wednesday, hundreds of rescuers had set up three posts around Mount Salak as they prepared to resume their mission at dawn on Thursday.

Ahmad Rifai, who arrived at the Cidahu rescue base seeking news of his sister, a 30-year-old stewardess who had stood in for a colleague who was supposed to have been on board, broke down as he contemplated her fate.

“Why are rescuers so slow? Why didn’t they start searching for it quickly?” complained Rifai, 48. “If they had been quick, maybe my sister would still be...” he trailed off in mid-sentence.

Yudistira Alex, 43, who had several friends on board, arrived at Cidahu late Wednesday.

“They’re four of my best childhood friends. We are inseparable like brothers,” he muttered between sobs. “I don’t know who to blame, maybe this is fate.”

There were also scenes of grief at the airport in Jakarta late Wednesday, with relatives of passengers sitting on luggage carousels weeping uncontrollably, waiting for information.

Reports of the number on board varied, with local rescue officials saying the plane was carrying 46 people and Trimarga Rekatama, the company responsible for inviting the passengers, saying 50 were on board.

Russia’s RIA Novosti news agency named the captain as Alexander Yablontsev, 57, a veteran pilot.

Agence France-Presse

[jetjockey696]

An aviation consultant said that flying around the Salak Mountains, which are about 100 kilometers to Jakarta’s south, are not safe for a joy ride.

“Mount Salak has steep terrain,” Gerry Soejatman, an aviation consultant, told Jakarta Globe on Thursday. “It is not recommended for a joy ride — I would recommend Indramayu [West Java] and the Krakatau region. But it might be difficult now because flying to that region might potentially meet traffic from Soekarno Hatta airport.”

Gerry, who in the past, has flown to Mount Salak and Mount Gede for mapping expeditions, said that the pilots, who were from Russia and were reportedly not used to flying in Indonesia, must be painstakingly cautious when considering routes in Java’s mountainous regions.

Gerry said that the Russian Sukhoi jet should have been flying above at least 11,000 feet (3,353 meters) to keep safe distance from the Mount Salak, which is 2,211 meters tall.

“From what I heard, the pilot requested to go at 6,000 feet [1,829 meters],” he said. “They might have requested that because they were not accustom with the weather, or not worried about the weather.”

The pilot, he added, should understand that flight timing in Indonesia is also significant.

“In the morning, the sky is clear with some fog,” Gerry said. “In the late morning, it is clear, but sometimes clouds appear. After lunch, it [varies] on how fast the clouds pile up. The clouds would not have been a problem if it went up higher than 20,000 feet.”

Gerry suspected that the Russian airplane —which left Halim Perdanakusuma airport on Wednesday at 2 p.m. — crashed into the mountain wall.

“If the picture I am seeing is correct, the aircraft didn’t fall,” he said. “It hit the wall of mountain. Therefore the airplane didn’t fall out of the sky.”

[ChicoG]

Quote:
How much faith in those investigative agencies do you have?

You are absolutely right to question this.

The Russians will not want to publish anything that might cast safety concerns over the aircraft, otherwise it will ruin the orders.

By the same token, historically, they will try and blame someone other than the pilots.

Indonesia will not want to take any blame.

Cue finger pointing of "They shouldn't have been cleared to 6000ft" in one direction and "They shouldn't have asked" in the other.

[Pilot DAR]

Thus they would be idiots not to make a big show of this being an impartial and transparent investigation. It carries a small risk of evidence leading in an unexpected direction, but less risk (given appearances so far) than if they seem to be hiding something. That could kill the whole project.

Definately. It is much more in the commercial interest of the project in the bigger picture, to investigate openly, identify a shortcoming in procedure or pilot decision making (if that is what it was -I have no knowledge), and then make a corrective action plan for that. The alternative being the whole aircraft has a dark cloud over it, which is perhaps undeserved.

There are a number of historical incidents of demo flights gone wrong, and it's appaerently just been easier to blame the pilot (particularly when he cannot defend himself). The demo flight is a less than ideal situation for safety. Operations outside the "normal" procedures of commercial transportation, and making the most of the plane's performance to impress people - a challenging combination....

[View From The Ground]

Interesting perspective on the dangers of flying in this area.

Mt. Salak: An airplane graveyard | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/10/mt-salak-an-airplane-graveyard.html)

[fotoguzzi]

(Not a pilot) As asked on another forum: Were the two planned flights that day to use the same flight path? Was the cockpit crew the same for both flights?

Finally, how close is the fatal flight path to the successful flight path?

[Padre1]

It has been a very long time since I piloted a plane, but was happy to find this forum. I live about 13 km NW of the point of impact. I can see Mount Salak on a clear day and perhaps could see the site with binoculars. I came across the forum, because of my problem to understand the coordinates given by search personnel on the local TV (61 seconds!?) in one of the coordinates. Using the decimal conversion proposed by another poster, which look to be correct and fit fairly well with a report from one of the search pilots who gave the altitude as 5,800 ft. Java lies E-W, with a chain of volcanic mountains along the island. Here in West Java Mounts Salak I (7,287 ft), Salak II (7,153 ft) Gede (9,705 ft) and Pangrango (9,905), all lie to the south. Flying from on the north coast to Pelabuhan Ratu, a small fishing village on the south coast would only take a few minutes and I suspect that was the plan. On the return the pilot had requested to descend from 10,000 to 6000 ft and that was before passing over the above mentioned mountains. Yesterday afternoon in the town of Bogor (400 m asl) it was overcast and I did hear an unusual sound above, but paid little notice because there is a nearby airfield. It is probable that the mountains were entirely covered by cloud. What I cannot understand is that, with a navigator on board, why the request to descend was made so soon. I also assume that he would be aware of the MOCA (at least 10,000 ft?). Also surely a new aircraft would have a ground proximity warning system. Would this help? Perhaps not if you fly into a vertical mountainside. Regarding the weather, Bogor is known as Rain Town and has the national record for lightning strikes. Although we used to have a dry period of several weeks or even months, we haven’t had a long dry period for a couple of years (climate change) and often get heavy rain especially in the afternoon. I can’t remember when I last saw the mountains. Retrieval of the remains will be an enormous problem and I guess it will take 6-8 hours on foot to reach the site from the nearest road.

[Padre1]

Definitely the same pilot, co-pilot and navigator according to the reports. The flight paths may have been different. Also, even if not, the cloud cover probably increased from morning to afternoon.

[hetfield]

Still no comment on their web site...

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Main page (http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/)

[Ds3]

Disclaimer: I have no experience of airliner crashes at all.

But, it strikes me as slightly strange if this was CFIT and the aircraft impacted a virtually sheer cliff at normal cruise speed that, according to a number of comments, there are pieces of wreckage large enough to be mistaken for the aircraft 'breaking in two'.

Surely if it impacted a cliff as above it would be such an intense impact it would virtually disentigrate?

[WHBM]

Indonesian Authorities reported the aircraft was enroute at 10,000 feet near Mount Salak when at about 15:30L (08:30Z) the crew requested and was cleared to descend to 6,000 feet.
Just one for our ATC colleagues, if I do request a descent to below MSA in an area, what sort of response back would I expect ? Just a clearance without comment ?

[Heathrow Harry]

Padre describes the area quite well -

the weather is NOT "unpredictable" - it is all too predictable

often nice clear still mornings then around 11:00 cumulus starts to bubble up - you can pretty much guarantee rain and thunderstorms around Bogor starting at 13:00 - 13:30 clearing round 16:00 throughout the year - except maybe for a few days in June/July

For a long time Bogor was in the records as the thunderstorm capital of the world

Looks like he clipped a ridge coming off Gunung Salak - a couple of kms further north and he'd have had a lot of clear air under him but ..........

[Sqwak7700]

Just one for our ATC colleagues, if I do request a descent to below MSA in an area, what sort of response back would I expect ? Just a clearance without comment ?

Most ATCO's would give you a big "unable" due to terrain, but that is in countries with proper ATC - which is definitely not Indonesia. The Jakarta controllers seem as though they willfully try to kill you just for fun.

Extremely poor service from the controllers in this part of the world, just a matter of fact unfortunately - and pretty unsurprising considering the overall safety culture of the Indonesian aviation industry. Bad English and complete disregard for established safety procedures. With the drastic increase in traffic these days, it is downright dangerous.

But with that, it is still no excuse for a pilot loosing SA and descending below MSA. Although, in this case, I think it was probably more a case of trying to showboat to the VIPs and pushing the envelope a little too much. The aircraft was circling the mountain, so I am sure they were aware of the terrain. They got too close to it, visual illusion looking past the ridge (it is all jungle covered after all), or got caught somewhere outside the performance envelope of the aircraft due to weather or disorientation.

Hopefully we will find out.

[Romeo E.T.]

https://p.twimg.com/AsgY2Z9CAAEpNlH.jpg:large

[rigpiggy]

does anybody know what egpws/taws is installed? If there is an inhibit function?

[pudoc]

If the mountain is 5300ft high, I wonder how they hit it after only being cleared 6000.

Edit: I misread something. Peak was over 6000ft, makes sense now.

[ChicoG]

If the mountain is 5300ft high, I wonder how they hit it after only being cleared 6000.

The aircraft wreckage was found by a helicopter the following morning (May 10th) at about 09:15L (02:15Z) on the slopes of Mount Salak at an elevation of about 5300 feet MSL.

<snip>

The Air Force said the aircraft impacted the edge of a cliff (top of the cliff at 6250 feet MSL) about 1.7 nm from Cijeruk. Approximate final position of the aircraft is S6.7045 E106.7373.

I'm guessing it's a very steep and long drop.

[Padre1]

Mount Salak has two craters, Salak I is 7,254 ft (my earlier post was slightly in error) and Salak II 7,153 ft. The first SAR helicopter pilot reported the wreckage at 5,800 ft, but that may have been below the point of impact. I think the top of the ridge in the photographs is around 2,000 m (6,600 ft).

[Flightmech]

Sickening image. Just below the ridgeline and not far from safety on that pass. However, why were they there in the first place?

[chubbychopper]

Purse speculation of course, but possibly descending in order to maintain VMC for some sightseeing? With ground below in sight - or perhaps through a hole?

[WHBM]

But with that, it is still no excuse for a pilot loosing SA and descending below MSA. Although, in this case, I think it was probably more a case of trying to showboat to the VIPs and pushing the envelope a little too much. The aircraft was circling the mountain, so I am sure they were aware of the terrain.
Indeed, although I am sure we wonder what aspect of commercial jet operation is served by demonstrating to the prospective customers sightseeing manoeuvring close to mountains, especially as they were probably focused on the Champanska instead.

But by all accounts they weren't sightseeing because they were in cloud. And cloud, and by the sound of it rain, in close proximity to mountains, would typically mean turbulence, surely the last thing to expose the journalists etc on a jolly to.

[FlightCosting]

Indeed, although I am sure we wonder what aspect of commercial jet operation is served by demonstrating to the prospective customers sightseeing manoeuvring close to mountains, especially as they were probably focused on the Champanska instead.

I have done many demo flights when working for aircraft manufacturers. There is a tendency for the VIP's on board ( most of whom know SFA about aviation) to want to see the aircraft do manoeuvres that are outside of the normal civil operating envelope. Pressure can be put on the crew to demonstrate the agile manoeuvrability as the aircraft has low fuel and payload. Most of the time it is pulled off without consequences. This could well be one of those times it went wrong.

[thepotato232]

Please forgive my speculation, but would it not be fairly easy for the GPWS/TAWS to have been MEL'd at some point on this sales excursion, particularly since the aircraft isn't engaged in public carriage? That would also explain the picture of the aircraft's overhead panel, taken on the ground some time prior to the accident, with the TAWS - Terrain button clearly indicating "OFF".

I know it's quite a logical leap, and I'm not at all familiar with this particular aircraft type, but is "GPWS/TAWS switch OFF" part of a normal on-the-ground procedure for anyone here who flies modern jet aircraft? I'm trying to remember if it's ever been a part of my flow/checklist on anything I've flown, but I'm drawing a blank

(edit: The photo in question, TAWS switches on the left hand side, close to the top)
http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae145/largoatp/web.jpg

[Teddy Robinson]

with some image enhancement, the initial impact witness mark appears quite flat relative to the steeply rising terrain, the sweepback angle of both wings apparently evident with foreshortening of the starboard wing "shadow" compared to that of the port.

Further up the slope, displaced slightly to port side of the nominal flight axis, what appears to be a tail-cone, and further up the debris field foliage discolouration roughly consistent with the symmetry, shape and size of the tail surfaces.

Discolouration to trees and ground cover appears to start at POI, and continue to those on the apex of the ridge, once again the center-line of this runs towards the top centre left of the image.

Two features which appear to be heavily damaged tree trunks to the centre right, one is above the POI, the other below.
There is heavy scoring of the surface below POI (landslide) which continues out of frame.

[STBYRUD]

Concerning the TAWS - I could imagine that it shows FAULT because the IRSs are not aligned - I wonder whether the TERRAIN button is actually a terrain inhibit switch?

[thepotato232]

I see that both the TAWS switches are showing FAULT, which is a normal indication when the airplane's on the ground and not ready to fly. I was referring to the TAWS - terrain switch, which is clearly indicating OFF in white as well, that being a selected position. Or at least, I'm fairly confident in saying that the SSJ likely follows the standard amber=fault, white=selected button philosophy as do similar aircraft like Airbus and Embraer.

I've been racking my brain but for the life of me, I can't remember "GPWS/TAWS switch OFF" being an SOP for anything I've flown before in any normal phase of operation.

[rmac]

Is it possible that if they wanted to get up close and personal with the terrain in order to "demonstrate" the aircrafts capabilities, the crew would want to inhibit the TAWS/GPWS in order to silence the warnings ?? Of course more likely to select that option temporarily in the air which would not explain the prior posters overhead panel question.

[thepotato232]

That may well have been the case also, rmac, which is just as bothersome. Of course, it is far too early in the process for this little bit of speculation to have any weight to it. We don't know if the switch being like that is normal on this aircraft, and we don't know what the switch selection was on the accident flight. All we know is that these unfortunate souls ended up where they did, and with the aid of a modern GPWS/TAWS, that should not have happened.

[DeRated]

...and does the EXT PWR being AVAL/ON indicate anything to those leaping to conclusions?

[thepotato232]

AS ALREADY STATED, it indicates that the plane is on the ground. And AS ALREADY ASKED, is turning the GPWS/TAWS off part of your shutdown SOP? Because it hasn't been on any of my equipment.

Perhaps rather than failing to read posts before ridiculing them, you could draw on your years of experience and tell me if that's normal, particularly in light of the fact that the plane ended up on the side of a mountain. It's an honest question; I'm certainly no Sukhoi driver.

edit: The file name of the picture includes the string 20120509, which of course suggests it was taken the day of the crash. And after a quick review of my old books, I indeed can't find a reason to actually change the position of the GPWS/TAWS switch on those aircraft unless it's broken or there's some reason you don't want to hear it - not as part of a normal shutdown/startup procedure. Again, there's no guarantee that carries over to Sukhoi procedures.

[Oilhead]

I flew the A319/320 for five years and when I first saw one of the Sukhoi cockpit pictures - front panel displays, sidestick etc I was struck at how similar the planes cockpit ergonomics look. Then I looked closely at the overhead panel switchery (?) and I am surprised at how manual many of the systems seem to be - needing four battery switches etc. Seemed on close inspection to be a bit of a throwback on the Sukhoi for systems that on the A320 barely need looking at/attending to. Anyone familiar with the Sukhoi systems versus Airbus? As advanced? Not so? Cheers -

Dreadful business for sure.

[Flightmech]

I am surprised at how manual many of the systems seem to be - needing four battery switches etc.

Not that unusual, the A310/A300-600 has three battery switches (because it has three batteries). Maybe this a/c has 4 and each one can be individually switched for MEL relief etc

[flying lid]

http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae145/largoatp/web.jpg

The 3 swiches top RHS of panel, marked ON OFF, is this real, on a brand new aircraft ?.

Same swiches for sale here, just over $3 each.

Toggle Switch 20A 20 Amp 125VAC Heavy Duty On-Off: In Stock Buy Now | West Florida Components (http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/SW063PD/Toggle+Switch+20A+20+Amp+125VAC+Heavy+Duty+On-Off.html)

http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/mm5/graphics/20A-on-off-switch.jpg

I bought similar swiches recently for £1 each in UK, for use on a model railway. Instantly recogniseable, hence this post.

I would expect top grade electrical switchgear to be used on a brand new multi $million aircraft.

A very sad event. The above has certainly nothing to do with it, but I think warrants attention.

[Bill Bader]

@Flying Lid, maybe it's a similar perspective question to the half-full glass of water. Maybe you got yourself a good deal for your model railroad switches.

—Then again, how well do the switches work for your railroad?

I agree with your sense of irony, however. But, culturally, we do have trouble living up to the KISS ethic. Our culture likes smooth and new; but our culture is not necessarily sane.

[LiveryMan]

Probably for a retrofit feature or maybe a temporary installation for test equipment?
I doubt those will be seen on production aircraft.

[grimmrad]

On the aviation herald link it says: "The coordinator of the rescue operation said, that the aircraft appeared relatively intact from the air however has received substantial damage after leaving a trail away from the crater down the slope". It seems that the impact (?) image only shows a small part of the puzzle as we did not see the plane yet, if the report is correct.
Crash: Sukhoi SU95 over Indonesia on May 9th 2012, aircraft impacted mountain (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44f464f7&opt=0)
(SLF speaking)

[Golf-Sierra]

Same manufacturer probably attaches an appropriate piece of paper to the switch and sells it for $50 as 'aviation grade' ;-)

But more interesting though - the sign above the switch reads 'SDU mode' where SDU stands for: Sistema Distancionnogo Upravleniya – fly by wire control system.

Presumably this aircraft must have been some kind of prototype version with the ability to change the FBW mode.

[STBYRUD]

I was just about to post the same thing - the FBW system is something where I would not have fooled around with dodgy switches :uhoh:

[JungleBus]

I think people are reading too much into the overhead panel picture. The plane is clearly on the ground with the engines off. Unless the overhead panel design philosophy is 100% at odds with every other recent design, (possible...it's Russian! :\) the TAWS switchlights being pushed IN would seem to indicate they are selected to their normal position, ON. This appears to be the logic on the rest of the panel. The OFF light simply means the TAWS system was not operating that that particular moment, irrespective of switch position. Similarly, note the L & R Pack and Gen switchlights. They are all pushed in for normal position, ie ON, but have OFF lights illuminated due to lack of bleed air source and generator output w/ engines shut down, respectively.

So I don't think TAWS was *selected* off in that photo. Whether the OFF light represents an abnormal condition on the ground on external power, I have no idea. It's possible that TAWS is inhibited with weight on wheels, or the FMS/GPS was turned off at the time. It's also possible that there was no database for Indonesia installed or even that TAWS was inop on the demonstrator. Point is, it's impossible to tell from that photo. I suspect we'll know the answer very shortly as Sukhoi is no doubt very anxious to clear the air.

Edit - didn't realize this was my first post :E. Hi, I'm Sam. E170/190 CA in the US. Long time lurker, first time poster.

[thepotato232]

That's a very good point, JungleBus. My first assumption was that the buttons don't actually stay stuck out or pushed in, just white = selected. I personally can't tell the difference between the physical position of that button and any of the others that indicate "OFF". Of course, it's also odd to me that the ground power is in use but all of the batteries are switched are off, but as I've said, I really don't know the first thing about this plane. It's just that with the exception of the batteries and the one TAWS light, everything else looks set up exactly as I'd expect for an airplane under ground power that isn't ready for start yet. I would think the FAULT lights are a perfectly normal indication if the system isn't up yet, just scratching my head about the OFF one. Also wouldn't have a clue why the SYS button wouldn't be OFF too if it's related to inhibit logic, but as I said, not my airplane.

I'm a few years removed from the 170/190 series, and now I'm trying to remember if the white indications for buttons on that panel are for selected positions, or if they're more general than that. I know amber = isn't working right, I just don't quite remember the switch logic for white. The overhead panel on the Sukhoi just looks so much like an Airbus, that's what I defaulted to in my head.

Good first post, JB. Thanks for the added perspective!

[captplaystation]

On 737 it is normal when leaving the aircraft unattended to have Batt Sw off & Gnd Pwr in use. Then, when the GP is disconnected (or becomes accidentally disconnected) no need to do anything to avoid arriving in the morning to find a flat Batt.

Anyway,forget all this switchology discussion, all said & done, TAWS is there to save you if all the rest goes wrong, not to enable/facilitate you fooling around below MSA in the mountains in cr@p wx.

Without wishing to prejudge, I think the cause is going to be a whole lot simpler than anything technology based.

[aseanaero]

The debris pattern in the the hillside is consistent with an impact like this (F-4 into a concrete barrier)

F4 Phantom Jet Hits Concrete Wall at 500 MPH - YouTube

I was trying to explain to some non aviation people today that the hope of finding victims remains intact after a high speed collision with a solid object are remote.

The forces involved in an almost instantaneous stop from cruise speed are tremendous, most people can't comprehend that.

[thepotato232]

Oh yeah, duh. I guess that would be perfectly normal for the battery under those circumstances. That just leaves the one light that's got me wondering.

And I agree with you 100% about TAWS being more of a failsafe than a license to be reckless. I'm just wondering if that button showing OFF is a normal indication on this a/c, or it's indicating that way because the pilots had it switched off for some reason or another. It's certainly too early to try and throw either the pilots or anyone else under the bus, I'm just looking at something that doesn't quite add up with my own meager experience.

[glenbrook]

Looks like a perfectly adequate component to me, actually quite robust. I don't think it warrants being called "cheapo". It has a very clear ON/OFF display and is made of steel. Aircraft are not made like cars and there are very good reasons for keeping them simple, from reliable proven components.

[aseanaero]

On the switch issue it's more a question of longevity and reliability , an aviation switch like Klixon or HP can be $250 to $1,000 , many using gold plated connectors and they're usually good for 20 years of service.

This could have been a quick temporary AOG fix while waiting for proper switches to be sent out.

If you look at the panel the switches are installed in it's a plain steel plate in contrast to the backlit panels used for the other modules , I think this is a temporary installation done by the factory for some reason.

[thepotato232]

Well yeah, they're simple switches, and they switch. No problem there. But besides them looking so different from the rest of the panel, they're not guarded and don't appear to have a stop or anything else of the sort that would prevent accidental movement. Given that it's something as important the FBW system, that's a bit unusual. The background's a different color as well, and it's also the only part of the panel where I see Cyrillic script. Of course none of this would be a big surprise for a prototype or a test bed, if they used one of those planes for the sales tour.

[GarageYears]

I'm rather confused... :confused:

On the one hand we have the pictures from the crash site, which on my admittedly brief inspection appear to show very little of any significant size left; basically indicating a high-speed impact in near level flight (assumption on my part).

On the other hand there appears to be a comment from the rescue/recovery team that the aircraft is in two (severely damaged) but identifiable pieces.

I can't imagine a scenario where the aircraft hit the cliff face resulting in anything other than total disintegration of the airframe (matching the photos), so how do the teams comments make sense?

[aseanaero]

So I guess that rules out the two fuselage half's reported earlier.

There was an sms circulated around Indonesia last night around 9pm that the wreck (broken fuselage) had been found next to a waterfall at 3,000ft , the waterfall turns out to be a landslide , the height 5,200ft and the 'fuselage' is the tail cone and another component I can't identify higher up.

In failing light and in bad weather it would be easy to imagine what was reported.

[twentypoint4]

Just one for our ATC colleagues, if I do request a descent to below MSA in an area, what sort of response back would I expect ? Just a clearance without comment ?

I can only relate this question to my experience of being a controller in England. I have absolutely no idea how things work in Indonesia, or most of the world for that matter :bored:.

My guess is that this flight was being flown outside controlled airspace? If so, it is not being provided with an air traffic "control" service.

There are a few dependents on whether or not us controllers in England warn a pilot about descending below MSA outside controlled airspace (mainly down to the agreed level of service being provided which is normally respective with the weather conditions). However, imagining I'm providing a Sukhoi aircraft with an appropriate service outside controlled airspace and it requested/advised of descent below MSA, I would most definitely say something along the lines of:

"Caution, you will be descending below the MSA of _____ft. Taking your own terrain separation, descend at your discretion."

[training wheels]

Don't know whether this video has been posted on here before or not. It shows the aircraft landing and pushing back at Halim airport in Jakarta probably on the day of the cash.

IIV20j3K4aM

[SansAnhedral]

If in fact the "loss of altitude for a low pass flyby of the scenery" hypothesis is true, with the number of journalists and others with cameras onboard one might assume that if any of the equipment survived the incident and is recovered it would be somewhat easily deduced from the recordings or images.

[lomapaseo]

If you're looking for an investigation that assigns blame, you are going to be disappointed by the conflicting press releases.

If it's a pilot or procedural error not much will be said in the public press.

If it's an aircraft system error then a hint might come from the order book.

Since the aircraft is not yet in service press topics serve no purpose

in summary, much will be done behind the scenes to ascertain the cause, but little satisfying press releases.

[PJ2]

Sam - welcome to PPRuNe.

You, and a few other posters commenting on the TAWS switch-lights have it right.

The TAWS can be turned off, without affecting GPWS Modes 1 - 5.

If the GPS position is inaccurate, TAWS will not be available.

I had assumed that the reason for the TAWS Display On-Off switch was to be able to choose between the radar display and the TAWS display when both may have been required. In our ops, at least one pilot had to have TAWS ON in designated mountainous terrain - so if radar was also required, the TAWS switch was ON for one ND and OFF for the other. If the TAWS system had a warning, both NDs displayed the warning and the terrain ahead.

Of course, the question is, was the TAWS turned off on this flight, and if not, what did the TAWS do just prior to impact? Were there warnings - how soon - was there a response from the crew?

Google-Earth images deleted due updated data.

PJ2

[GroundProxGuy]

The TAWS is ACSS T2CAS according to Sukhoi's webpage here: Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Civil aviation - Sukhoi Superjet 100 (http://sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/ssj100/)

This same TAWS is optionally installed in Airbus A320 (instead of Honeywell EGPWS), so it's not surprising the TAWS control panel looks identical. You can see an interactive Airbus TAWS control panel here: A320 Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) & Cockpit Voice Recorder (RCDR) (http://meriweather.com/flightdeck/320/over/gpws.html)

The TAWS "TERR" button is a locking switch/annunciator. It displays FAULT when the TAWS functions are not working (due to lack of power, or IRU, or position, etc) and when the switch is depressed it will display OFF to indicate the TAWS functions have been manually inhibited. I don't think OFF illuminates for faults, otherwise the crew would not know the position of the terrain inhibit switch (active, deactive).

If they were flying low to give the passengers a thrill, it is likely they would have activated the terrain inhibit.

This ACSS T2CAS has a unique feature that voices "Avoid Terrain" instead of "Terrain Terrain Pull Up" if it believes (based on the internal terrain database) that the aircraft might not be able to out-climb the terrain. In that case, the crew is supposed to turn the aircraft instead of performing max climb. Of course, which way to turn will be based on the terrain display so hopefully the terrain database and the position of the aircraft are correct, otherwise the pilot could be mis-led into turning toward higher terrain instead of away from it!!

[TWT]

Since the aircraft is not yet in service press topics serve no purpose

Aircraft is in service with Aeroflot and Armavia

[Right Way Up]

PJ2,

On our Airbii the Terr pb being off on the overhead would disable the EGPWS and the NDs would not receive the terrain ahead caution/warning. The pop up feature is only available if the overhead pb is on and the TERR on NDs pbs are off.

The TAWS pb might have been switched off routinely as the system had no terrain clearance info for that airfield and runway.

[ap08]

I wonder if flight recorders can survive this impact?

[PJ2]

Checked with the AOM - you're correct, thank you, RWU and GroundProxGuy, post corrected - PJ2

[A340-541]

It seems the picture circulating is actually from the AirBlue crash.
Citing AVHerald:

"There are photos circulating the Internet and in Media that pretend to be of the crash site at Mount Salak, however, in reality show the Airblue A321 which crashed in Pakistan, see Crash: AirBlue A321 near Islamabad on Jul 28th 2010, impacted mountaineous terrain near the airport."

Crash: Sukhoi SU95 over Indonesia on May 9th 2012, aircraft impacted mountain (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44f464f7&opt=0)

[misd-agin]

Having done a short internship with the NTSB many many moons ago and been to many CFIT accidents, it never ceases to amaze me how many occur within less than 100' of passing over the obstacle...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


The difference between where the plane is pointing and where it's actually going? AOA.

The difference is very obvious on fighter a/c performing at airshows.

[PEI_3721]

Re TAWS switch operation; see incident #8 (A320) below.
Selecting TERR OFF inhibits the Enhanced modes (Look-Ahead/Map), but the original GPWS modes still work (N.B. Could have been a Honeywell installation).

http://www.icao.int/fsix/_Library%5CTAWS%20Saves%20plus%20add.pdf

[DaveReidUK]

I have done many demo flights when working for aircraft manufacturers. There is a tendency for the VIP's on board (most of whom know SFA about aviation) to want to see the aircraft do manoeuvres that are outside of the normal civil operating envelope. Pressure can be put on the crew to demonstrate the agile manoeuvrability as the aircraft has low fuel and payload. Most of the time it is pulled off without consequences. This could well be one of those times it went wrong.

It's also perfectly possible, in my experience of demo tours, that the airline execs on board for the flight could have included one or more senior pilots from the potential customer.

Before assuming that both left- and right-hand seats were necessarily occupied by the Sukhoi crew at the time of the accident, it might be a good idea to wait for the CVR, if it's recoverable.

[aseanaero]

in summary, much will be done behind the scenes to ascertain the cause, but little satisfying press releases.

2 Il-76s on the way from Russia with BK-117s on board to help with recovery

[bsieker]

I wonder if flight recorders can survive this impact?

Short answer: Yes.

They are made specifically for this.

Look at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CASPEC10.PDF for some specifications. Most actual recorders exceed these substantially. The tough requirements are for the memory, not for the actual recorder.

Among the specifications: 1000 G acceleration along the most critical axis for 5 milliseconds, dropping a 500 lb steel bar from 3m onto the weakest point with an impact point no bigger than 32 square millimetres, etc.

The actual impact for the recorders will be relatively low, since they sit in the tail and in a head-on collision (we seem to be assuming CFIT, where the direction of travel is mainly along the plane's longitudinal axis) use the entire plane as a crumple-zone. Larger and much more fragile pieces seem to have survived in one piece.

A case in point to show that most memory modules are a lot tougher than required: AF447's memory survived a year in seawater where the specification only calls for 30 days.

[Mechta]

If the pilot pulled up when he became aware of the high ground ahead, maybe after flying through some orographic cloud that had suddenly appeared, it is quite possible that the aircraft was flying nearly parallel to the tops of the trees beneath. If so when it eventually hit them, it could have been travelling at not much above, or even at, stall speed. If it was travelling almost parallel to the surface beneath, the actual deceleration distance would have been relatively large, which could explain the large pieces of wreckage. A bit like the A320 at Mulhouse, but with everything tilted up at an angle.

[Yaw String]

PJ2...
I think, judging by the impact slope being in shadow and the ridge behind in sunlight,depending on the time of day,i,e, morning,the impact pic was taken from the opposite side of that ridge, i.e west side, facing east..
While we are playing with Google Earth..maybe 6 42'36.82"S 106 43'59.62"E

[RetiredF4]

Without seeing better pictures there can´t be said much about the impact speed. It could be anything from stall speed to max speed.

In 2007 a German Navy Tornado crashed in the Swiss Alps. Freshly refueld and just few minutes in the air, flying in the upsloping valley it ran out of power and therefore out of airspeed to make the ridgeline and basically stalled into the steep mountain side. It was bits and peaces afterwords. The WSO survived with luck (hanging on a ridge line with his chute) and could tell the story.

Loking at the pictures and the known request for lower altitudes (for sight seeing?) the crew might have faced a similar challenge, which they didn´t make.

That happens when the terrain outclimbs the aircraft.


Tornado crash (http://www.google.de/imgres?q=crash+lauterbrunnen+jet&um=1&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=827&tbm=isch&tbnid=wn8ALjihokFZsM:&imgrefurl=http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200704/14/eng20070414_366499.html&docid=X9P7LBBRncMobM&itg=1&imgurl=http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200704/14/images/xinsrc_452040413164976552942.jpg&w=350&h=230&ei=6verT6ngH8rcsgbesLyRBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=438&vpy=163&dur=5816&hovh=182&hovw=277&tx=129&ty=91&sig=102960641924720050865&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=201&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:74)

[Skipskatta]

The terrain and impact point in the pictures in post 168 looks very much like the Hercules accident at Kebnekaise, Sweden: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/480037-norwegian-media-reporting-rnoaf-hercules-missing.html

Only time will tell if the situations that led to the crashes were similar.

[V1... Ooops]

Some models of Class A TAWS used in regional aircraft do not hold the entire world database of terrain.

The Honeywell MK VI EGPWS, for example, can hold one of three different databases - Americas, Atlantic, and Pacific. These correspond approximately to the Americas (north and south), Europe & Africa including the middle east, and Asia beginning at about India and going east from there.

If this aircraft was normally based in Russia, and if it used a TAWS that only held 'regional' databases, it would have had the 'Atlantic' database loaded into it at home. That terrain database does not include coverage for Indonesia.

If an aircraft equipped with a TAWS that contains regional (rather than worldwide) terrain coverage flies out of the area that the database covers, a TERR FAULT (as opposed to TAWS fault) message will be presented. This means that the 'enhanced', or look-ahead, functions of the TAWS are no longer available due to no geographical data being available... only the 'classic' GPWS modes will function.

The Sukhoi is a regional jet, it would not make economic sense to equip it with a TAWS database that contains the whole world. But - I am familiar only with the Honeywell EGPWS (TAWS) systems, not with those manufactured by other companies.

[PJ2]

Yaw String;
I think, judging by the impact slope being in shadow and the ridge behind in sunlight,depending on the time of day,i,e, morning,the impact pic was taken from the opposite side of that ridge, i.e west side, facing east..
Yes, could very well be. Also, that coincides with an inbound airway, (R206) discussed in Gerry Soejatman's article (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/talkback/superjet-disappears-south-of-jakarta-notes-from-an-aviation-consultant/517078) in the Jakarta Globe.

[Airbubba]

Yes, could very well be. Also, that coincides with an inbound airway, (R206) discussed in Gerry Soejatman's article in the Jakarta Globe.

The Jakarta Globe article you cite has this puzzling update:

Update: Wreckage found, spotted from the air. Ground SAR teams reported less than 1 kilometer from scene according to Detik.com article. Aircraft appears to be relatively intact but need ground teams to assess the extent of damage and seek out survivors inside. This report was made public by Deputy SAR Ops, Hadi L. SAR will try to evacuate survivors and the deceased by air if and when possible.

The report also contradicts previous rumors of aircraft found split in two and bodies strewn around the place! As I said before: Disgusting misinformation not welcomed anywhere.

Superjet Disappears South of Jakarta: Notes From an Aviation Consultant | The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/talkback/superjet-disappears-south-of-jakarta-notes-from-an-aviation-consultant/517078#Scene_1)

I'd say the pictures tend to confirm the earlier rumors, not the report of the 'aircraft appears to be relatively intact' that Gerry relates as he preaches about the evils of 'disgusting misinformation'.

[A-FLOOR]

V1... comparable aircraft like the E170 and F100 have EGPWS mk.V, loaded with a global database. Mark VI/VII are typically used for regional turboprops and as you say, usually only have a continental DB.

[GroundProxGuy]

V1...The TAWS in this accident was ACSS T2CAS, according to their website they have worldwide terrain coverage: T²CAS® Terrain and Traffic Collision Avoidance System (http://www.acss.com/Avionics/T2CAS)

I believe ACSS buy their terrain source data from someone else, unlike the Honeywell EGPWS that are more common in jet aircraft. Honeywell does it's terrain database in-house.

[liider]

Superjet International (http://www.superjetinternational.com/)

The crashed aircraft with mountains in the background on the front page...

[Ground Rat]

Skipskatta,
Just curious. Was this the impact point image you used in your comparison to Kebnekaise?

Kebnekaise Impact Site Image (http://www.polisen.se/ImageVault/Images/id_8816/width_3000/conversionFormatType_WebSafe/scope_0/filename_/storage_Original/ImageVaultHandler.aspx)

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Moscow Times report...

http://static.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/b6d/Crash%20VOLCANO.jpg
Search and rescue helicopters and volunteers struggling through thick forest and mountainous terrain spotted bodies but no survivors on the Indonesian mountainside where a Sukhoi Superjet 100 crashed by the time darkness forced an end to the search Thursday night.

The loss of the twin-engine passenger jet, which disappeared from radar screens 21 minutes into a demonstration flight on Wednesday, put a freeze on the planned sale of 48 of the craft to Indonesian carriers, the Jakarta Post reported. But industry watchers are predicting a serious impact on all global sales of the new jet, especially if the accident turns out to be a result of technical failure rather than pilot error.

“We haven’t found survivors,” Gagah Prakoso, a spokesman for the search and rescue team, told Indonesia’s Metro TV on Thursday as he announced the discovery of the first bodies, Reuters reported.

Difficult terrain means rescuers will have to wait for the weather to clear before attempting to recover bodies using nets suspended from helicopters, rescuers said. But reports about the search in a mountainous and heavily forested region of the island of Java were confused, with some saying no one has yet reached the scene.

A Russian blogger who was meant to be on the flight said information about the progress of the recovery operation was confusing and contradictory.

“For especially hasty media: Not one person has been to the crash site yet,” Sergei Dolya, who has published photographs of the plane and its wreckage on his Twitter account, tweeted Thursday afternoon.

Writing from what he called the “headquarters” of the rescue operation, he said paratroopers trying to descend to the crash site by helicopter had been unable to jump, but 350 people were trying to climb an 80-degree slope from below.

“Every 10 minutes there is completely contradictory information. No exact info at all,” Dolya tweeted.

The wreckage was found at an altitude of about 1,768 meters on the slopes of the volcanic Mount Salak, about 64 kilometers from Jakarta, on Thursday morning. The plane apparently slammed into a spur of the mountain, not clearing the sheer face of the volcano only by several dozen meters. The aircraft apparently broke into several pieces.

There were 45 people on board, including eight Russian crew members, representatives of the several Indonesian airlines and local journalists who had been invited to join the demonstration flight.

Both Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono have ordered the formation of special groups to ascertain the cause of the crash, but little progress will be made before flight recorders can be recovered.

Air traffic controllers say they lost contact with the aircraft after the pilot and co-pilot asked for permission to drop from 3,000 meters to 1,800 meters — an unusual maneuver so close to the mountain.

The area around Mount Salak has seen seven air crashes in the past decade, the Jakarta Post reported Thursday.

Sukhoi chief test pilot Alexander Yablontsev, with more than 25 years of flying experience, was at the controls. He piloted the jet on its maiden flight in 2008. His co-pilot Alexander Kochetkov, also a test pilot, graduated flight school in 2003. Neither had flown in Indonesia before, the Straights Times reported Thursday.

Magomed Tolboyev, a military test pilot and commander in the Interior Ministry, likened the crash to the crash of a Tu-154 in Katyn in 2010 that killed 96 people, including the Polish prime minister.

“It’s the same situation as with the Polish crew — poor flight planning. There is very difficult terrain in Java, so you need to plan every step of the flight to the centimeter,” he told Kommersant FM radio.

Sukhoi has insisted that all pre-flight preparations were conducted properly and that the plane was in good working order.

Roman Gusarov, editor-in-chief of the Avia.ru website, told The Moscow Times that reputational damage would be difficult to avoid, whatever the outcome of the investigation.

“Whether or not it turns out to have been a technical fault or pilot error, this is a heavy blow not only to the Superjet but to the whole of Russian aviation,” he said.

The Sukhoi Superjet 100 is the first civilian aircraft to be designed and built in Russia since the Soviet collapse, and it has been billed as the savior of the domestic aviation industry.

With a comparatively inexpensive $30 million price tag, Sukhoi sees it as a challenger to similar aircraft built by Brazil’s Embraer and Canada’s Bombardier, and it has gone to great lengths to bring in Western partners like Boeing and Italy’s Alenia Aermacchi in an effort to make it as modern as possible.

The Fitch Ratings Agency said in a note Thursday that the crash would negatively affect orders in the short term, but would have no impact on the BB/Stable rating of Sukhoi Civil Aviation, the plane’s manufacturer.

While no customer said it had canceled orders Thursday, spokesmen for Indonesia’s Kartika Airlines, which plans to buy 30 jets, and Sky, which plans to buy 12, both told Reuters that the airlines would now wait for the results of the crash investigation before deciding whether to go ahead with their orders. A third local airline, Queen Air, was considering buying six of the aircraft.

Meanwhile, the Indonesian government is considering a full evaluation of the safety audit certification process for all Sukhoi Superjet 100 aircraft that Indonesian companies buy to prevent another crash, the Jakarta Post reported Thursday.

“We can trace the safety audit certification to its factory in Russia, and we will compare their certification to ours,” the Indonesian Transportation Ministry’s air transportation director general, Herry Bhakti Gumay, told reporters in Jakarta on Thursday. He said the process would take about two weeks.

Experts now seem unanimous that the crash will have a serious impact on sales of the Superjet, differing only on whether or how quickly they can recover.

“It’s very early days. The first thing to establish now is the cause of the crash; if it was pilot error, then it could recover quite quickly. If it turns out to have been a technical fault, then there could well be a longer-term impact,” said Tom Chruszcz of Fitch. But he added that the significant support shown by the Russian government is in Superjet’s favor.

“I think the Russian state’s commitment to this project has been quite genuine, and I don’t see them abandoning the project now,” he added.

Gusarov was more pessimistic, comparing the crash to the fate of the Tu-144, a Concorde-like supersonic airliner that was unveiled with great fanfare in the 1960s but was withdrawn after proving unreliable and suffering two fatal air crashes.

Sukhoi would now have to pin their hopes on current Superjet operators Aeroflot and Armenian carrier Armavia to build up a successful operating record with the aircraft, he added.

There are currently only seven aircraft operating commercially — six with Aeroflot, which uses the craft for connections between Moscow and St. Petersburg, Minsk and Nizhny Novgorod, and one with Armavia, which flies the Superjet between Russia’s capital and Yerevan. Both airlines said Thursday that they would continue to fly the aircraft.

President Vladimir Putin sent a message of “heartfelt condolence” to Indonesian President Yudhoyono, adding that he had “issued the necessary instructions to the Russian representatives to take an active part in the ongoing investigation.”



Read more: Bodies, No Survivors Spotted at Superjet Crash | News | The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/bodies-no-survivors-spotted-at-superjet-crash/458210.html?photo=2#ixzz1uVR0TmYF)
The Moscow Times

[fotoguzzi]

@Airbubba

(Not a pilot) To me, the strength of the assertions are proportional to the strength of the underlying data. That is, the reporter overhears a second- or third-hand comment that the plane is in two pieces and reports it as such.

Then he has a report from an authoritative source that the plane is largely intact and reports that, naming the source.

I think the reporter was being responsible in describing what he knew and the likelihood that it might be wrong.

[Tableview]

I hope the professionals won't start jumping all over me for this, but it seems to me as someone with a keen interest in aviation and safety, that Russian aircraft generally are solid and reliable, and that most of the documented crashes have been due to human error, which can of course include deficient maintenance or preparation. Design and construction faults do not seem to be a major cause.

[Teddy Robinson]

I'm going to proffer an opinion on the "confused reports", I'm not saying I'm right however it may alleviate some confusion.
My previous post was an assessment of the images, which deliberately avoided any conclusions: having put the large jpg. files through several filters, the defined image of the witness marks from the initial impact show a relatively simple yet distinct sequence.
At POI the aircraft was quite possibly nose high relative to the terrain right wing down by approx 30 degrees.
How so ? The enhanced shadow IS very distinct, a "free transform" hi-gamma image of the aircraft itself drops in perfectly in this precise attitude. which has more than a passing resemblance to an escape manouver at a relatively low forward speed.

Above POI there is another shadow left and above what appears to be the tail come, the "shadow" matches that of the tail surfaces. Using the same technique it shows the aircraft pointing across the slope nose high right.

Notably none of the main wreckage mentioned appears to be present on the crash-site image image itself, presumably having slid down-slope, quite possibly remaining largely intact as some reports would have it, what we see is scatter.

NOTE PLEASE THAT THIS IS A VERY SUBJECTIVE VIEW, It is not my intention to present this as hard fact, just food for thought.

It's a terrible set of circumstances for everyone which ever way you look at it.

[Loose rivets]

To quote myself.


Could it be the main picture is of an impact at an extreme attitude . . . the bulk of the aircraft then sliding down with parts still in tact?



Does anyone have any knowledge of how those leading edges affect the potential to climb rapidly.

Optimizing climb is one thing, but pulling violently to avoid something, only to be overridden by a computer, is another. Could it be this aircraft was capable of being pulled up hard enough to mush into the mountainside?

[Flt.Lt Zed]

The similarities with the Air NZ 901 Mt Erebus crash are numerous.
1. Non scheduled sightseeing/joyride.
2. Pressure to put on a show for the pax.
3. Mountainous/Volcanic terrain.
4. Pilot in unfamiliar territory/weather conditions.
5. Descent below msa in marginal vmc ?

[aseanaero]

I read today that the cliff face is 80 degrees, almost vertical.

Heli pilots with good long line and rescue hoist skills are hard to find here

The russians are sending 2 BK-117s to help recover victims and aircraft components.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is only one question that matters. Why did they choose to descend to only 1800 meters in a mountainous region, all the other factors already discussed are secondary to this fundamental question.

IMO it is past time to start asking hard questions about Russian airline operators and their continuing culture of risk taking behavior....

[sevenstrokeroll]

if you requested a descent in the USA to an altitude that would conflict with terrain, ATC would deny the request (assuming radar contact), and probably explain why the altitude would not be safe.

could there have been a confusion in language or understanding ...for a pilot to ask for altitudes that would conflict with terrain is just nuts.

[24seven]

Indonesian ATC will happily let you descend in mountainous terrain but that is why they ask "flight condition" and if you say "'victor mike charlie" they will clear you lower but you as the pilot have to remember you are responsible for terrain clearance.

Only this morning I heard an American pilot in his big fancy business jet being asked "flight condition" which seemed to confuse him totally, he finally responded with "VFR" and the ATC cleared him lower but it did make me wonder if the pilot understood why he was being asked that.

[StormyKnight]

http://s1-05.twitpicproxy.com/photos/large/577235372.jpg

Sergey Dolya @ dolyasergey
"On local television show filming location of the accident. It is clearly visible tail Superjet"

[aseanaero]

http://assets.kompas.com/data/photo/2012/05/11/1319382620X310.JPG

A better close up photo of the crash site

[Ganzic]

The search and rescue reached the site, 10 bodies have been found.

from #!/dolyasergey

[HeadingSouth]

From the latest pictures shown I get the impression that the plane didn't hit the ridge straight on but somehow scraped along the ridge. Is it only me ?

[gbour]

A couple of earlier poster mention a 'navigator' (being the same person on both flights)
Is Sukhoi trying to sell a plane with a more-than-two-person crew? With the third person not even being the sometimes missed flight engineer?

[mirogster]

It looks like that it wasn´t 90deg impact more like 45 and little left bank?
On trees above and left, you can clearly see more (fire) damage.
Is it that white part a possibly left wing tip? More heavier and bigger debris (engines) went down, I guess.

Terrible tragedy for the families :( And btw all those published pictures with crying relatives are ' product' of really low life journalists.

[Road_Hog]

A couple of earlier poster mention a 'navigator' (being the same person on both flights)
Is Sukhoi trying to sell a plane with a more-than-two-person crew? With the third person not even being the sometimes missed flight engineer?

Specs list the Superjet 100 as two man crew. However, there were plenty of 'crew' on this flight.

Crew of missing Sukhoi Superjet 100 airliner named | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/09/russian-crews-aboard-missing-sukhoi-superjet-100-aircraft.html)

[StormyKnight]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6308/79839089.4/0_7ad72_e7a53e03_orig

"Diagram of accident data from the staff. Red line - the trajectory of the aircraft. Green - the rescuers. The scheme is approximate"

Source: https://twitter.com/#!/dolyasergey

[mirogster]

Update from today's press conference:http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6308/79839089.4/0_7ad72_e7a53e03_orig . (Sergey Dolya)

Approximate current situation plan.
Red line: app. flight path.
Green line: rescue crews.

[StormyKnight]

"I added video @ YouTube http://youtu.be/6jP-Xfmdyzk?a Flying around in a helicopter crash site Superjet"

Quote & Source: https://twitter.com/#!/dolyasergey

[StormyKnight]

<quote>....theoretically it should prevent the 'outclimb' problem.</quote>

Does it calculate on a straight-ahead path?
They banked left quite sharply before the impact site, perhaps they where trying to escape the valley? Almost as if they where trying to get over at the lowest ridge point (slightly right of the impact point.....)?

[Skipskatta]

Groundrat: I was thinking about this picture: http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2012/03/17/1331987157105_296.jpg

[mirogster]

Next Sergey Dolya update. Video from flyby over crash site: http://youtu.be/6jP-Xfmdyzk

[despegue]

I am FED UP with the constant allusions and sarcastic remarks by some here ( mostly the Brits) regarding the quality of the engineering, construction,training and operation of the Sukhoi in particular and Russia in general.

Fact is that Russia has always had and has a very Solid aviation industry with designs that have Always greatly surpassed any crap that the UK. ever produced.

The SSJ is a very modern airliner, built by one of the World's most highly regarded manufacturers.

The crew have already been crucified by the know-all flightsim pseudo-pilot ppruners without even knowing the location of the FDR and CVR, let alone knowing the contents.

[Flightmech]

I am FED UP with the constant allusions and sarcastic remarks by some here ( mostly the Brits) regarding the quality of the engineering, construction,training and operation of the Sukhoi in particular and Russia in general.


Little confused here:confused:Just trawled back thorugh 11 pages of posts and cant find any evidence of "constant" allusions and sarcastic remarks?? The major topic seems to be while they descended below MSA? Think you need to chill:confused:

[Fzz]

Looking and the video and comparing with Google Earth, it's fairly clear which ridge they hit. It appears the map with the red and green lines puts the crash in the wrong place. As far as I can tell, the crash site is around 6 42'46.10"S 106 44'06.09"E at around 1980m altitude (assuming you trust Google Earth). If that's correct, it appears they had the altitude to just clear the ridge, had they just been a hundred metres or so to the right.

[Kulverstukas]

I am FED UP with the constant allusions and sarcastic remarks by some here ( mostly the Brits)

Did you ever tried to read russian aviation forums, like forumavia.ru? PPRuNe is like nuns school compared. :(

[Kulverstukas]

Govt considers evaluation of Russia’s Sukhoi safety audit - The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Thu, 05/10/2012 9:19 PM
(http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/10/govt-considers-evaluation-russia-s-sukhoi-safety-audit.html)

Indonesia National Air Carrier Association (INACA) secretary general Tengku Burhanuddin said the crash of would not affect local demand for such aircraft.

“We need jets like that to connect one city to another to support economic growth,” he said.

He did not want to speculate on the cause of the crash, but said that the pilots pushed the plane to the limit in the first joy-flight, in which he participated in on the morning of the crash.

Superjet Disappears South of Jakarta: Notes From an Aviation Consultant | The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/talkback/superjet-disappears-south-of-jakarta-notes-from-an-aviation-consultant/517078#Scene_1)

"Flying to the south of Jakarta is dangerous if only armed with a Jeppesen map: No terrain depiction, only the minimum safe altitude (MSA) is there.

As you can see from Image 2 -- which I picked from Lido chart -- Mt. Salak and Pangrango are just outside the MSA limit. Note minimum of route altitudes (MORA) is 11900 and 10300. On the Jeppesen, this is not depicted on Halim airport approach charts, nor on the STAR charts for HLP or CGK."

"A witness onboard on an earlier flight told me that the previous flight was departing and arriving Halim 24. The pilots only had the approach and airport ground charts. Seeing the nave displays on the previous flight, it looks like they simply planned to depart, go along R206 airway (R-195 HLM) until about 30NM and turn back."

[Road_Hog]

Clear picture in this article from the top of the ridge down at the crash site. I did post the picture itself but it disappeared.
Crash: Sukhoi SU95 over Indonesia on May 9th 2012, aircraft impacted mountain (http://avherald.com/h?article=44f464f7&opt=4096)

[pudoc]

I am FED UP with the constant allusions and sarcastic remarks by some here ( mostly the Brits) regarding the quality of the engineering, construction,training and operation of the Sukhoi in particular and Russia in general.

Fact is that Russia has always had and has a very Solid aviation industry with designs that have Always greatly surpassed any crap that the UK. ever produced.

After Russia was declared the most dangerous country for aviation, and after watching that Aeroflot Airbus depart with settled snow on the wing, our views on Russia are justified.

That being said, I was quite impressed with the Sukhoi.

[mirogster]

Guys, calm down your chauvinistic daemons, and stick to the topic, PLEASE!

[vampire9]

I fear that the Spirit of the Costa Concordia is alive and well.
Aircraft and ships do not always travel in the direction in which they are heading.

[aseanaero]

Indonesia National Air Carrier Association (INACA) secretary general Tengku Burhanuddin said the crash of would not affect local demand for such aircraft.

I agree. The motivating factor here is purely low cost travel.

I think it's a good design and Sukhoi have a lot of military aircraft experience they can draw on , if they get the tech support and spares right this could be THE next small intercity jet.



I haven't had anything to do with Sukhois but the Antonov's I have dealt with are very clever robust and simple to maintain designs , if Sukhoi has a similar design philosophy that's what we need in Asia.

Anyone know what the short field performance is like ? Can it operate out of an 1,100 to 1,300 metre runway ?

[deSitter]

I've seen clouds hover over mountains in such a way that the terrain emerging below the cloud deck could be mistaken, on quick glance, for the horizon line. It's possible they were sightseeing and mistook clouds lowering over the peaks as the actual ridge line.

[aseanaero]

The clouds in that whole range of volcanoes and mountains between Jakarta and Bandung can form from nowhere before your eyes. The storms over those mountains are something else , frightening

It's a little bit of Papua or PNG in Jakarta's back yard.

Gunung Salak has claimed I think 5 or 6 aircraft in the last 10 years and those were being flown by local pilots that knew the area.

[qpezdisk]

MTOW, ISA, SL - 1731m and 2052m

[aseanaero]

MTOW, ISA, SL - 1731m and 2052m

Ok similar to a 737, thanks

[mini]

Is it unusual that there is no obvious evidence of a fire at the crash site?

[V1 VR V2]

If you look at the picture of the impact the trees on the ridge and around the side are a different colour to the others. This may be caused by heat of fire from the impact causing them to turn brown (charred)

[MPH]

Does anybody know what kind of equipment this A/C has on board? GPWS, GPS, TCAS or any other relevant instrumentation.

[Swiss Cheese]

The Sukhoi SJ100 has T2CAS fitted, which allegedly offers greater protection to CFIT.

A good point was made earlier about regional data feeds to the EGPWS. Common and commercial sense suggests a Demo aircraft would have all its tricks on show to potential purchasers.

So, why did the T2CAS not alert the Test Pilots to the impending ridge?

Recall Garuda 152 A300 CFIT where the GPWS functionality was called into question.

[William Dunn]

Forced to emerge from lurking by too much inaccuracy, and prejudice against Russian aircraft. This plane is not very Russian at all, as some posters have indicated above, with components from Boeing and many other Western companies.

Superjet International is a joint venture in which the Italian company Alenia Aeronautica (part of the state-owned Finmeccanica group) owns 51%.

The President & Chairman, and also the CEO, are Italian.

The HQ is in Venice (Italy, to avoid equivocation).

[212man]

So, why did the T2CAS not alert the Test Pilots to the impending ridge?

Probably because the ridge didn't have a transponder! Having seen this level of muppetry on the first page I've looked at, I think I'll leave again :ugh::ugh:

[Right Way Up]

Probably because the ridge didn't have a transponder! Having seen this level of muppetry on the first page I've looked at, I think I'll leave again

212man,

Before you give yourself a headache I suggest you google T2CAS, you may learn something like I have.

[NOLAND3]

Probably best you do leave...:ugh:

T²CAS™: Terrain and Traffic Collision Avoidance System - Thales (http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Aerospace/Aerospace_Product_T%C2%B2CAS/?pid=1568)

[bsieker]

So, why did the T2CAS not alert the Test Pilots to the impending ridge?
Probably because the ridge didn't have a transponder! Having seen this level of muppetry on the first page I've looked at, I think I'll leave again

Maybe you should look up the acronym.

T²CAS (http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Aerospace/Aerospace_Product_T²CAS/?pid=1568) is an integrated TCAS plus TAWS system by Thales. So it should have warned of impending terrain collision, if (a) it was not disabled, (b) it was loaded with maps of the region, (c) the maps of the region were accurate and (d) it was receiving accurate GPS coordinates.

Neither of which we know for certain just now.

[5 APUs captain]

Summarizing from russian pprune (forumavia.ru):
1. Poor preflight preparation (route and airfield charts, MSA etc).
2. Probably the terrain database had not been uploaded.
3. Probably the EGPWS had been turned off for this flight.
4. Test pilot - not much experienced in high terrain flights.

[Stervotochinka]

Here are pictures of another blogger from the first demo-flight that day:
Марина Лы�цева, фотограф - Суперджет в Джакарте (http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/252699.html)

[akaSylvia]

Meanwhile, an Aeroflot flight attendant tweeted with commentary on the crash.

Aeroflot Fires A FA Over Superjet Crash Remarks — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5462703/)

As soon as the news about the crash came through, she reportedly twitted with text roughly translated as "A Superjet crashed? (Devil Laugh)... **** of a plane. Pity not at Aeroflot. Could do with one of the planes out or have them all sold back to someone..."

Aeroflot responded by posting her letter of termination on the corportate Twitter account: https://twitter.com/#!/aeroflot/status/200610318089588737/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/#%21/aeroflot/status/200610318089588737/photo/1)

[Big Pistons Forever]

Summarizing from russian pprune (forumavia.ru):
1. Poor preflight preparation (route and airfield charts, MSA etc).
2. Probably the terrain database had not been uploaded.
3. Probably the EGPWS had been turned off for this flight.
4. Test pilot - not much experienced in high terrain flights.

In other words ops normal :(

[NOTanAM]

Here are two interesting articles from the Jakarta Post, where they know better about the terrain where it happened, and speculate as much as everyone over what might have happened and some really great stuff to feed your appetite for rumors and theories:

Mt. Salak: An airplane graveyard | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/10/mt-salak-an-airplane-graveyard.html)

and over the weather over there by then:

Thick cloud covered Mt. Salak before Sukhoi crash | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/11/thick-cloud-covered-mt-salak-sukhoi-crash.html)

Did they try to go under the weather rather than pass through? Still sounds like a very bad idea in that neck of the world. :confused:
They must have had a real mecanical problem degrading seriously they flight capability to want to (or not, but still) get in that s:mad:t!

[Kulverstukas]

Is CVR/FDR really found?

Black boxes found - Azerbaijan IRS (http://azerbaijan-irs.com/5669/najdeny-chernye-yashhiki-razbivshegosya-v-indonezii-lajnera-sukhoi-superjet-100-s-mesta-katastrofy-v-promezhutochnyj-lager-vyvezli-12-tel/)

No other agencies seems confirm this.

[Kulverstukas]

Photo from first demo flight 09/05/12

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6307/414616.d2/0_8d054_7ec90bb9_XXL (http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/marina74/album/180174/?&p=11)

Caption: SKY Aviation pilot was in the cockpit at flight (http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/252699.html).

[ArtfulDodger]

New Pictures – Indonesia Air Crash, Rescue Parties Reach Wreckage


Video & larger pictures from links on this news site.

New Pictures – Indonesia Air Crash, Rescue Parties Reach Wreckage: AV Herald « The Airport Informer (http://wp.me/p2jrV4-ys)

[Loose rivets]

Pointless arguing about such things.


I'm starting to get the feeling there's more to this than just pushing luck to give a good demonstration.

Very bad weather with CB to 37,000. Very experienced skipper and co-pilot. Sighting on ground of aircraft weaving left and right.

It makes me want to know what's in the black boxes more than ever.

[pattern_is_full]

I have no opinion at this point as to why this plane hit this ridge. just too many possibilities NOT ruled out yet by the known information.

I am confused by some of the graphics, which seem (AvHerald, e.g.) to indicate impact on one side of the ridge, with main wreckage found on the other side.

The original cliff-face photos show intact forest on the ridge-top, which seems to belie the possibility of the plane flopping over the ridge after impact. Looks more like it simply hit, slammed to a stop, and then slid down on the same side that it hit.

The conflict may be due to imperfect plotting of the lat-long - a couple of seconds (location, not time) error would be enough to put one location or the other on the wrong side of a narrow ridgeline.

Just an artifact of the rock texture, of course, but there almost appears to be an eerie impression of the cockpit windows visible in the center of the gray knife-edged impact point.

[pudoc]

Sighting on ground of aircraft weaving left and right.


Just like the passengers said the Virgin A330 was doing before they had a fire indication...

[robertbartsch]

When might we know what info is in the black boxes? ...weeks, ...longer?