faa-jaa

[malc4d]

Just how many people have the FAA cpl and would like to fly in, and have the work permit for, Europe?.
It can not be that many people. Is that why its being made politicly hard for us FAA holders to convert ?
( no yankbashing please, they can and do know how to fly )

[This message has been edited by malc4d (edited 01 June 2001).]

[DeltaTango]

Welcome to the world of JAR, buddy.
Before July 1st 1999 it was'nt a problem, but now they just seem to want to make life hard for pilots in general and for converting pilots in particular.
I myself am a brit with FAA CPL/IR and I can stick it where the sun does'nt shine, if I want to live/work in europe.

If you get any wiser on this issue I would be very interested in hearing about it.

Good luck
DT

[little red train]

Basically the FAA is a far cheaper system, for various reasons.

for the cost of a JAA ATPL Intergrates, you could get a FAA ATP and a heap of hours.

if it was simply a case have a FAA, heres a JAA, everbody would do it, so the JAA simply ban compitition.

Unfair, but also protecting EU interests. I can understand this, but now were locked in with all the JAA S*it with viable competion to make them buck-up their ideas.

[Caractacus Potts]

Yup.Me too. I have an FAA ATP.Nobody can tell me that the US system is not more user friendly than this Euro-crap.Just a whole lot of old fuddy duddies protecting their jobs and justifying their existences.
It has been a complete eye-opener to come back here and just see how backward the whole Euro system is.I really don't understand why "the people" have not done anything about it.
I would challenge anybody from CAA/JAA to go to the States and give me an coherent answer as to why the European system cannot be like the US.

[malc4d]

I started my course in 1997 and just missed the cutoff date. I wouldent mind converting if there was a sensable conversion course. after all l can f*****G fly !!!

Also they wouldnt dare go to the states to see a system that realy works well and without a whole lotta fuss.

It seems that we europeans with out 40000 - 60000 doller cpls i/r or atpl arnt wanted in the usa either (not good enough for work permits?) The schools take our money here in europe, or there and then just dump us.
All l get told is "marry an american for the greencard". (New wannabees beware of spending so much money for a faa cpl)
And now the jaa want me to do 50 more hours (another 8000 pds)to get the jaa i/r why???

[EggBeta]

Me too, start OATS on August the 20th followed by the 50 hours flying!

[malc4d]

good for you, it must be nice either to have the extra folding, or to be so sure of a job after it all.
Me, any American women want a British passport email me!!

[Noggin]

Any aviataion training system acts as a filter to remove the less able candidate. The RAF filter in the selection process and then at every stage of training, after all they are using tax payers money.

In the US filtering occurs at the commuter level, pilots reaching the airlines have considerable numbers of hours. You will not get into a US airline with 200 hours.

In Europe the training system is designed to produce a 200 hour pilot who can go into the right hand seat of an airliner. The filter is therefore more academic and based upon a more comprehensive examination system. We do not have many commuter airlines to act as a training ground.

There is no deliberate attempt to keep non-Europeans out of the system. A European committee consisting of predominently airline pilots has laid down a set of minima in JAR-FCL, any country is free to join and contribute to the system. The FAA do not consider the JAA groundschool requirements to be necessary, their system is designed for a different purpose. If you meet the JAA requirements you get a JAA licence, if you have a foreign ATPL with 3000 hours you can convert easily.

Of course there are many pilots who want a licence for nothing, I doubt that many passengers would share their viewpoint. If you think £50,000 is expensive to gain a professional qualification, try becoming a dentist.

[malc4d]

l think your missing the point.
most of us who have reached faa cpl cfi mei and ii have spent a lotodosh already to get here.
yes l see the need for some sort of conversion test but to make us all do the whole thing again is just taking the p**s

[Renaudierre]

unfortuantly your faa licenSe is far superoir to the jaa license and the jaa no this! they feel threatened that a faa pilot may be able to fly in europe along side crappy jaa gear/flaps operators. the faa licenSe trains you to be rel pilot where the jaa all you get is a crappy license and no job after given 150000 eu dollars to scholls like horizon. the jar fcl are only bothered about EU dollars. once you get a faa license there is no going bak, because the jaa feel cheated they have not got your eu dollars and they try to make you climb every barrier possible. understande! everyone nos this to be the case but dont want to believe it. forget the eu and stay in the USA. believe me you are far better of. i have never looked back and now i am succesful ATP pilot flying turboprops. i no many fat and ugly women who want britisch passport.

[CRJ200]

Good Discussion and some good points.

Like a lot of you, I am a European flying in the USA and would love the opportunity to come home and fly.

Noggin: You made some good points. The CAA used to have a waiver for pilots with 3000 hour heavy flying time. Does that still exist with the JAA? I heard of some sort of waiver for pilots with 4000 hours. Still trying to find out if there's any merit to it.

For someone that's flown with pilots on both sides of the pond my opinion is that one side doesn't produce a better final product than the other. But one thing for sure is there's a lot more BS and ego stroking involved in the Euro side. I suppose they need to do that in order to keep the supply of money coming in and keep themselves in a job.

It's going to be a lot of money, hard work, determination and a lot of jumping through hoops to get the JAA licence and then more work to get a job there. Sometimes it hard to justify if all the effort will be worth it. For some of us it may not be. It all comes down to how much are you willing to sacrafice in order to get it.

[EggBeta]

In fairness to the US pilots, they have to have a degree to become ATP certificated, so they have to have demonstarted a certain amount of academic ability.

[little red train]

People are arguing from the wrong (yet correct) standpoint. The questioning of FAA/JAA pilots abilities really isn't the deciding issue with the conversion system.. Politics has firmly crept its way into the JAA; most policies have far more to do with protecting the EU than anything else. If the FAA was simply accepted at face value, the EU JAA system would stop immediately, all pilots would be trained in the US or elsewhere, simply from the economic aspect. "Who flies best" is a futile and never ending slagging match, both systems produce adequate pilots for the job requirements, however, thought vastly different methods.

They conversion system is in place to protect EU interests, not primarily for flight safety reasons.


Please direct all comments to Renaudierre
/arund/ronchonner to the gestbook at http://www.flashheaven.co.uk/ronchonner/ save these pages for intelegent conversation.

[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 02 June 2001).]

[leftrudder]

As a Brit also working as a pilot in the US I can say as others have mentioned that there are both good and bad with both Euro and US systems. The Euro system has a very comprehensive ground/theoritical base (dificult and inconvenient as it may be), there is no denying that it produces a theoritically knowledgeable person. However by the time a US trained FO gets to fly a Jet he has (usually) accumulated some solid flying experience eg single pilot IFR, he has been a Captain and made wx decisions and is therefore more useful to the Captain, I think than a 400 hr FO. Having said that I am not taking anything away from European trained FO's they have to pay their dues too albeit in a different way. As a Business Jet Captain flying in the U.S. I have flown with both types and cannot say I have had any worse experience with one type over the other. The systems are diferent and I think they will remain so for the foreseeable future.

[malc4d]

your all missing the point. All l want is the jaa to come up with a sensible flight and ground school conversion, taking into account the flight hours and knowlege of the faa/oz/nz/sa/orwotever pilot. is that so much to ask for

[malc4d]

your all missing the point. all we faa/oz/sa/nz/orwotever want is a sensable conversion course taking into account our current license. not having to start at o again

[Flare_you_fool!]

EggBeta,
A degree is not required to attain a US ATP. However, several of the larger airlines in the US do require that you have a 4 year degree as part of their entry requirements.
Regards
FYF

[Tarmach]

Yes you are right Flare_you_fool. Such airlines as Delta require four year degrees. May I ask why 4 years as oppose to only 3 years, what is the difference, a degree is still a degree, or is it the norm in America that most degrees are 4 years?

Why is it that some airlines in America need qualified pilots to have degrees anyway. Won't 10,000 hours do all on heavy jets, its not as if these pilots are on going for CEP schemes where huge amounts of money are going to be spent on their training.

[Flare_you_fool!]

Tarmach,
There is typically a 2 year degree called associate level and then the 4 year degree which is a bachelor degree. The airlines don't want the 2 year degree so they say a 4 year degree is required. The education structure is a little different over in the States and there really is no equivalent to a 3year degree similar to the UK.
The requirement is just another way to be selective, several airlines have already dropped the hard requirement but say it is desirable. I believe around 90%+ of applicants hired by the Majors in the states do have a 4 year degree.
Regards
FYF

[EggBeta]

I have just completed a 300nm+ solo cross country from San Francisco to Las Vegas in a Duchess. I also stopped at another airfield on the way back which is the UK requirement for the commercial x/c. I believe the FAA require 250nm. It was signed off by my CFII.
I am starting OATS in August, followed by the 50 odd hours of flying prior to the practical test.
Will I have to demonstrate this again in the UK, or as it is logged and signed off will this be appropriate?
Would appreciate your comments and thoughts.
The reason I did it was because the Duchess had just had its engines replaced and the flight school was looking for someone to break them in, so they only charged $120/hr total.

[Red Snake]

It is a daft system. I have both JAA and FAA ATPLs & have worked in Europe and the US. There's no difference in ability between the pilots - we're all a liability until 500+ hours on type. In the U.S. you gain experience flying beat up cherokees around, in Europe you spend all the time studying books. Neither help much with the first airline job.

[Tarmach]

Flare_you_fool yes I take your point about the degrees. However arn't these airlines 'cutting their nose off despite their face'. Surely if a training Captain or test pilot with a huge amount of hours and experience but no degree will still not gain employment?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Every system is daft if you're on the outside and trying to get in. They're even dafter while you're inside trying to work your way through them. Once your through though it will be a sigh of relief, beers all around and sod those following. That's real life.

It's well worth reading Noggin's contribution on page one of this thread again. As long as there is no GA on the scale seen in the States, Canada and Australia, JAA requirements will only shift around a median rather than change in a revolutionary way.

As a regular reading this forum you will have a huge emotional and financial investment in this business. It's very difficult to detach yourself from that so let's try a sideways look at the problem.

Without very helpful parents or a scholarship, becoming a doctor, dentist, lawyer or similar professional is very expensive in America - sound familiar?? In fact it's far more expensive than you toddling off to your posh school of choice for a full 509 equivalent. So why don't they flood over here and to other 'cheap' countries for education?

Uhh, well - the qualifications aren't recognised back home without extensive courses aand re-examination. It's only slightly easier when you've gained a lot of experience and then return. Such qualifications are often only recognised by individual states in America so it requires further oral and written examination just to move jobs within the same country. Entire web sites are devoted to professionals having problems in moving between jusisdictions.

So, just accept the lumps that come with the status quo?

Nope, jump the hoops, train and qualify whichever way you judge best and remember, always remember. You're powerless now but won't be in the future - remember what you went or are going through.

All the pro's you see writing on other parts of this site went through the same thing, hated it just as much and promptly put it to the back of their minds once they got that first job. By the time they climb the slippery ladder to a position of influence it's all completely forgotten - just fodder for a few stories over a beer.

You're able to communicate like no wannabees have ever done before. I hope there's a core of you who will remember and, more importantly, will still remember in future years when you in a position to change things.

------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Flare_you_fool!]

Tarmach,
The scenario you describe suggests that thay don't get enough applicants with the 4 year degree. Some do get hired without the degree, however, there are lots of applicants fighting for jobs at the Majors. Contrary to speculation there are not enough jobs at the majors for everybody and if a 4 year degree is what they want, then you jump through the hoops.
Having said that, when times get tight they will drop the requirement and hire those without.
I do believe they accept the UK equivalent of the degree program ie 3 years.
Regards
FYF

[malc4d]

ok, so what is the answer to this problem?
any helpfull ideas please
ps
l've a fixed and rotor cpl a cfi and mei working on cfii and rotor cfi and about 700 hours flight time

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I must say its increasingly difficult to imagine WHY anyone with FAA licenses should wish to leave the US market where pilots are in critically short supply...

What is often neglected in this particular debate is the cost of converting a JAA license to FAA. Why is this? Is it because very very few people ever do so? Why could that be? Is it because qualified EU pilots can't get permanent work permits in the US??

In fact if you tried it the FAA ask you to undertake a number of examinations and flight tests. Admittedly they are not as expensive as the JAA equivalents but then again the whole system IS cheaper out there so one would not expect them to hike the prices specifically for the JAA license comvertee *just because* he was 'used' to higher fees.

Its a two way street. Until we enter and EU-North America free trade agreement this status quo will remain. Which happens to be good news for EU Wannabes who now no longer face competing for jobs with USA pilots sporting 2000 Multi Hours running bank cheques and the like - work opportunities that simply do not exist in Europe.

There is no mileage in debating which system makes the best pilot. The statistics speak for themselves. No difference.

Its *ALWAYS* been difficult to become a pilot. Its actually easier now than 10 years ago *and* cheaper. By some margin.

Plus you have this forum.

Good luck one and all,

WWW

[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 06 June 2001).]

[Mr moto]

The easy solution is to decide where you want to work and then get the relevant licences.

If you go to the US to start with then you MUST take the cost of conversion into account. Otherwise you end up in the fools' paradise you're in now.

As Pprune Towers pointed out, the situation is as bad or worse in other professions but one day you may be in a position to do something about it.

So learn by my lot,
(Which I know you will not,)
And learn about women(flying) from me!

[Flare_you_fool!]

WWW
Qualified US pilots don't convert to the JAA system they remain in the US to work. The ONLY reason there is such a large amount of people converting FAA to JAA is because all the european nationals come to the states to take advantage of the cheap flying.
Remember US nationals cannot just waltz over the pond and get a european job.
The cost to convert a full JAA ATPL with the required hours already achieved.
FAR 61.159
1500hrs total time
500hrs x-country
100hrs night
and 75 hours actual or simulated instrument in an aircraft runs to about 1500 dollars about 1000 pounds including flight training,written test and flight test fee.
This is considerably less than to convert FAA to JAA.
If flight training were cheaper in europe than the US then the visa applications for US nationals wanting to flight train in europe would go through the roof. In the capitalist economy that is the USA would the americans impose hefty overburdening restrictions on the US nationals returning with their cheap european licences wishing to convert to the required FAA.
No they would just lower the prices to compete and keep the training in their own country. Maybe it is something europe should look at.
Regards
FYF

[malc4d]

so after all this. how do l get a job????

[Flare_you_fool!]

Malc,
Two choices jump over the JAA obstacles or marry an american
Good Luck
FYF

[Checkboard]

Buy How to Get a Green Card (http://www.loompanics.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/smpagegen.exe?U+scstore+grbp7872ffc21bc2+-c+scstore.cfg+-p+61142) - a book which list the dozen or so different ways to obtain a Green Card in the U.S.A.

[hawkeyepearce]

I completely agree with your last point.We really do need a sensible and efficient way of converting licenses.Lets face it if an FAA license was that unsafe no American pilot would be allowed to fly into any European city. The European Aviation community needs to get off its high horse and lose their holier than thou attitude and start encouraging aviation careers and flight training as opposed to making it impossible for people.

[bigbeerbelly]

malc4d, I have read thru the posts and many people have contributed valuable insight, but you just blindly ignore it. It is pretty annoying to read your posts. So let me make it very clear for you. 1. stop whining! 2. Decide where you want to grow up. In America, Europe, Africa, etc... 3. Go there 4. Do whatever it takes to get your airline job. If starting over with the CAA is the solution to you working in the country you want to be in, then do it. It will be expensive, but you are losing seniority the longer you whine about it.

_____________________________________________
There is always a way, and the person who figures it out first wins

[malc4d]

sorry to have been so quite. been on me hols.
well bigbeerbelly if you had read my mail u would have seen as some of the others have, all we want is a fair conversion test maybe we want to work in our own countries but after paying all our monies out not quite upto forking out another 20 - 30 grand
have a nice day

[Low_and_Slow]

I'm not sure you can use Better to describe either system, just different. Clearly the eventual product, the experienced ATP, is basically the same from both sides of the pond. The problem is that there are a number of points on the way that do not correspond to each other.

We can see this in other spheres. A UK PhD is approximately the same as a US PhD, but the BSc is different. The result being that a UK PhD program will typically have little or no coursework compared to the US one. The end products are the same, but a US BSc entering into a UK PhD program is likely to be out of his/her ilk for a time.

Similarly with piloting, the JAA CPL/frozen ATPL has no real equivalent in the FAA world: A fresh FAA CPL is not ready to sit right seat in an airliner, because the system is not set up for that (although whether a fresh JAA FATPL is either is an open question :) ). Thus expecting an easy transfer to JAA CPL is not realistic.

On the other hand some maneuvers to only allow JAA training in member states is clearly just protectionist. The arguments about weather and terrain don't make much sense considering the wide variation of weather and terrain in the EU.

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]

[malc4d]

thanks checkboard for link but as far as l know we poor mortals from the UK are not wanted in the land of the free. cubans only ?

[melissab]

May I just say that I sympathise with Malc and his frustrations with the system of converting licenses. However, when it comes to it, if you really want to fly, and I think if you've come this far then you do, you're willing to do just about anything to do so.

The cost seems astronomical, but it's true to say that most US college graduates spend in the region of £40000 on a good college education, so it seems we all get stung somewhere.

I too have FAA licences and a little over 1000 hours, was teaching twin, commercial and instrument students, and now I have to do my whole IR again. Big pain in the arse and bank balance more to the point. I reassure myself with this:
a) there's a huge shortage of pilots here as well and so pilots have a huge bargaining advantage for better pay etc. Therefore, when we do get hired we'll be well paid.
b)Most US grads start out in the commuters, earning peanuts I'm told, about what I earned as an instructor. Where as here there is more chance you'll start on a well paid jet job.
c)I told all my students this is a frustrating and expensive profession and you need a lot of determination to succeed, don't lose sight of this.
Remember as pilots we are invaluable and the rewards will come, eventually, even if it means you have to beg, borrow and steal to get there.