Aberdeen oil consortium contract

[jolly green giant]

Does anyone have any news on this contract, I know that all tenders had to be submitted by today, and that there were apparently 10 or 11 bids. Any idea who's put in bids, who's shortlisted or who's the front-runner??

[J32 8069]

IVE HEARD THAT THE EX BWA ATP'S ARE BEING MAINTAINED AS NORMAL TO START FLYING AT A MOMENTS NOTICE AND ALSO HEARD FROM SOMEWHERE ABOUT ALPINE AVIATION STARTING UP ASWELL. I CANT SEE JETS OPERATING THE ROUTE LIKE FLITELINE'S 146'S FOREVER AS THEY MUST BE COSTING A FORTUNE.

[LGW Vulture]

Heard a long time ago that the consortium were very unhappy with the BWA operation and were open to offers mid way thru the contract. Wrong airplane, bad operation, anyone throw any light?

Nothing is ideal to Scatsta I know, but maybe ScotAirways could run the arses off their 328's and make it work, higher operating costs but at least a decent operator / airplane could demand a little higher premium and save SoctAirways into the bargain!!!

[AOG007]

Well, I don't remember the Oil Companies having such a big problem when Brymon Offshore were running the Dash7's on that route. From memory they wanted it done cheaper, and look what they got. Unfortunate for BWA, and everyone involved, but it has brought a smile to faces off some, as rumours were rife of double dealings involved when Brymon lost the contract a couple of years ago.

............. Chins up it coould be worse... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[J32 8069]

IM NOT 100% SURE BUT I THINK THE OIL COMPANY WAS QUITE HAPPY WITH IT AS THEY COULD BE BACKING A COMPLETLY NEW AIRLINE.

[Honest Frank]

Flightline were advertising in this weeks Press & Journal in Aberdeen for cabin crew for 3 months contract-Whats all that about then.

[Puritan]

LGW Vulture - well sport, for a supposed Senior Aviation Analyst, with regards to some of the stuff you contribute, you seem remarkably ill-informed (neigh, naive).

Accordingly I'd suggest you do a little more research as to the historic 'facts' in respect to the why's and wherefores of history of the Aberdeen Oil Contract work, e.g. it was the 'Oil Consortium' who wanted BWA to use (highly unreliable) ATP's (whereas BWA had wanted to use ATR's, i.e. they even had two of them on their AOC just for that purpose - and indeed a lot of the demise of BWA was due to a failure in refinancing / selling-on of the full-rate leases on the those two aircraft) plus the fact that to provide the required (contracted) 'service level' they needed to have a ridiculous number of (unreliable) ATP aircraft available, when two ATR's would have sufficed.

The bottom line is old son, there's a lot of history that surrounds all this, most of which you were not privy to !

Ps. It's for a good reason that the ATP is also known as, 'Another Technical Problem' - and in ALL of the above BAe have an awful lot to answer for (imho) !

[UKpaxman]

Well, here's hoping Flightline get the contract. Being a regular user of the service I've spent many an hour in Aberdeen waiting for BWA to fix the ATP or fire up the fourth aircraft. Having a fleet of 4 aircraft with three out of service due to technical problems is downright ridiculous but it happened on a few occassions. The contract only demanded 3 aircraft, the fourth aircraft was only brought in due to the poor reliability of the other three. Living under the flightpath of Scatsta, and talking to some folk who have used the service, the punctuality of the service has never been better. With regard to the cost, apparently the 146's are using about a third more fuel than the ATP's, that said the 146 is much better at clearing backlog from Scatsta as they can depart with up to 95 PAX but they're limited to a similar number as the ATP was for arrival at Scatsta. Have to say watching them take of and climb is pretty damned impressive, I'm due out of Scatsta first thing Monday and I'm looking forward to the flight. Here's hoping the consortium look a bit further than costs this time - either that or bring back the Dash 7's.

[Wheeliebin]

The 146 is proving its suitability and impressing the punters and clients alike. Nothing but positive vibs so far!!!

[Shawny1]

Used to do this route out of Aberdeen with the old Shorts 330. Marvelous machine for this route.
Not too fast agreed but made it in and out many times when others failed. Can't see the D328 on this route due to the poor crosswind component on the machine, 21 Kts.
And this is absolute Max, no messing around!!
Dornier is just not built for Scottish Island weather in fact neither is the BAE 146!
Bring back the old Shed and all will be forgiven!!!!!

[UKpaxman]

Shawny,

I did lots of trips on the 330, my memories are earache and the hardest landing short of a completley uncontrolled descent. Problem nowadays is the fixed wing into Scatsta is there primarily to serve the Helicopters - because of this the aircraft needs to be able to carry 54 pax - 3 helicopter loads. This rules out a lot of the smaller regional aircraft. The low point of the 330's service was when it was unceremoniously blown over onto it's wing one night during the stopover. Dash 7 was the most fun, crosswinds seemed like more of a challenge to these guys - and as for short take off and landing, it had to be seen to be believed sometimes.

[Honest Frank]

Lets get back to the main discussion - not, what aircraft we think can do what and where.Right.

Hadrian should have built that wall higher.

[LAN]

Gentlemen,

I believe that - as I hope you will all find out the hard way - the ATR42/72 does this job just perfectly.

[peterking]

Having dealt with the various companies that fly or flew out of Sumburgh over the past years, In my eyes apart from the performance of the 146, the best aircraft for the job is the ATR72. It was a bad day when the ATR's were replaced by the ATP's. Very rarely did they leave Sumburgh without a max payload available.
They would be ideal for Scatsta.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[silverhawk]

Except the oil consortium decided against the ATR after insisting it be used. Only to discover it was much more expensive to operate when compared to the ATP, and then reverted back to the ATP.
As for reliability on the ATP, the dispatch figures tell the truth. The ATP is no more unreliable than any other aircraft, it just has a bad press.
Many of the delays associated with this contract were down to tech choppers or wx, but the ATP was often made to be the scapegoat.

[Honest Frank]

Here here silverhawk.
Many a time I can remember tech heli's, poor wx off-shore( below the heli's minima )or poor wx at SCS, late arrival of heli's etc...But the ATP would get the stick.
Yes, the ATP did go tech sometimes.What aircraft doesn't.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Strap-in I have some email to send to you regarding some of the allegations you have made in this thread. The email in your profile is not working therefore I must inform you that unless you provide a valid email address to me privately and amend the one in your profile I will be deleting all posts ever made by you.

You do not have to leave the new address publically visible but you MUST provide an address where you are contactable at. This goes to anyone else who uses PPRuNe.

[UKpaxman]

Silverhawk,

Bad Press ???, you mean BWA brought a fourth aircraft to Aberdeen just because they read somewhere it was unreliable - I don't think so. Honest Frank is right about the offshore weather causing delays, this led to backlog and this tended to be when the ATP used to play its Joker and go tech usually at least two together. When the ATR's were at Sumburgh, you'd be surprised at the number of BA pax who ended up on the ATR due to ATP's going tech. In fact my last trip through Sumburgh in December saw a 146 there, diverted from Scatsta due to crosswinds. When it left it also had all the BA pax from another cancelled ATP flight that was left sulking on the apron. The last excuse I heard was that the ATP's didn't like the damp conditions.

[trackdelta]

As one who has flown both the ATP and 146 ( currently flying B777) I must say that both aircraft are good at what they do. From what I can gather BWA did have problems with the ATPs in Aberdeen but it must be said that it sems they were not getting the engineering support from HQ. Look at BRAL, they seem to be having good overall dispatch rates with theirs because they are well maintained. When it comes to the crunch I believe the ATP has the advantage over the 146 it its bad weather performance. I have flown both and know which I would rather be flying on a cold, windy winters evening in the Shetlands. That being said you can understand why the pax love the jet. But you have to look at the bigger picture and with good engineering support I believe the ATP is the aircraft for the job up their.
Anyway good luck to whoever gets it.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Honest Frank - what you've said is quite right, there were many occasions when I have arrived in Scatsta to be told the helicopters are running late, and when you're scheduled out in 25 mins with a 1/2 hour turnround in Aberdeen there's no catch-up. The guys and occasionally girls in Aberdeen are only told they're delayed and assume it's the aircraft's fault when it's quite often not. Anyway how's the house coming along during this enforced period of poorly paid leave???

Re the debate about ATP/ATR/146, well it all depends on how much the oil consortium are prepared to pay. The ATP is the cheapest option, which is the reason it was brought in to do the job a couple of years ago, it is also better at dealing with strong x-winds than either of the others. It may well be the most inferior of the three in most other aspects but that is a major factor in the Shetlands, and I'll bet there are many occasions when the ATP'll get in when none of the others would.

Anyway none of this actually answers the original post, so come on somebody give us a clue as to who's up for the job, and most importantly do they need any pilots.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Charterguy and Strap-In made allegations on this thread and were challenged to substantiate those allegations. Strap-In chose not to reply to my request to update the email address in his/her profile so that the challenge to his/her unsubstantiated allegatons could be forwarded.

I have now deleted all posts by Strap-In. Charterguy was sent a challenge to the allegations and chose not to substantiate the original allegation and so the posts by Charterguy were also deleted.

Anyone who makes the concious decision to make allegations, especially from behind the cloak of anonymity still has to be prepared to back those allegations up when challenged whether that is done publicly on the forum or privately through email. I sugget everyone re-reads the rules they agreed to when registering to use this bulletin board.

[Sid's Stars]

I remember there was a Capt at BMA that was fired for calling the ATP a Skoda back in the late 80s.

Capt PPRUNE, Sir, can you explain why your heavy approach wasn't used on the people giving the Guv a hard time a while back? Is this because it concerns BWA with which some mods are/were affiliated?

[3 Off The Tee]

They should never have got rid of the Dash 7 Operation. They offered a robust & reliable service to the oil consortium.

Between us and the Fleet Captain in ABZ, we'd always try and do our upmost to fly wherever and whenever possible to suit.

For sure YA & YD used to have technical problems but what aircraft doesnot?

The grass seemed greener on the other side hence we lost the contract after around 15 years of service. Real shame <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Good luck to whoever suceeds this time around.

With Brymon now under the Citi Express Wing & Dash 7 days long gone, I'd say it's unlikely they'd return. Will find out though for you.

[jetgirl]

I did hear rumours that the contract is being awarded today - can anyone confirm or deny this???

[Big Tudor]

It was my understanding that one reason (not the only one) that the ATR's were pulled off the route was the bad feedback that BWA & the oil consortium were getting from the rig workers. I seem to remember a delegation from BWA doing a tour of some of the North Sea platforms to reassure the guys (& gals) that the aircraft were safe and that it was perfectly normal to approach a runway at an angle of 45 degrees in a strong crosswind !

[peterking]

Jetgirl

I did hear a rumour at work today that there are tenders still being submitted. The ones that I know of are Danish Air Transport, New Air, Flightline, Silver City Airways plus one or two others that I can't remember. I did hear that the closing date is tomorrow.
I never believe rumours though until I see them in black and white. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Paul Boath]

I hear its down to 2 ATP and 2 146 operators, anyone know anything different?

[3 Off The Tee]

I have heard from a 'reliable' source today that Brymon/Citi Express have put forward a Dash 8, three aircraft operation proposal to cover the contract .. can anyone confirm that ??

[Plane Speaker]

This is my understanding of the timescales. I further understand that those bidding to use the ATP's (again) stand a better than even chance....

14th – 25th JANUARY 2002
Detailed review takes place.Individual parties may be contacted to provide additional information or clarification if required.
28th JANUARY – 1st FEBRUARY 2002
Confirmation of shortlist of candidtes for negotiation process.
4th FEBRUARY – 8th FEBRUARY 2002 Negotiations complete and selection of successful contractor.
4th MARCH 2002
Start flying boys and girls.

Good luck to all.....

[GLORIA STITTS]

Further to the debate about ATP/ATR/146.
Cross winds: The ATR has a narror track U/C and a high wing; this leads to difficulties in cross winds and a general feeling of insecurity when on the ground, one chap put it thus 'You've got to fly it until you apply the park brake'! The ATP was much better in that the wide track U/C and low wing made handling much more predictable but one had to be careful about who handled the landing. Due to poor erganomics the left seater did the landings when the (strong) Xwind was from the right and visa versa. Why?, because ones left hand (for left seater)soon ran out of room - options - control trying to hold the wing down when flareing (fist and conrol wheel in the crutch). The 146 is easily the best in a cross wind provided the final yaw/roll/flare input are separated; wing sweep and anhedral can lead to unpredictable results.
Reliability: I have to say that the ATP was easily the most unreliable aircraft type I have flown, even when the aircraft were fairly new and with excellent engineering backup. The 146 and ATR were both very reliable.
IMHO the 146 is the best choice for this contract and I suspect that the pax will all vote for it.

[slizer]

I understand that it can get very windy up in Scatsta. Does anyone know the crosswind component landing limits for the ATR/ATP/BAe146?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

But will they pay for it?

[jetgirl]

Sure the BAe146

Max Demonstrated X-wind:
T/O 30Kts (200 series)
35Kts (300 series)

Landing 35Kts

It is very easy to control, even in gusty conditions and the trailing link undercarriage is a dream.

[silverhawk]

ATP X-wind limits

TO 36 kts

Land 34 kts

However Scatsta limit due terrain and RW width 25 kts only. Remember it is only a Cat C field.

Just a small point, the pax do not get to vote for which a/c will be appointed. The accountants take care of that and as already demonstrated over the last few years the a/c that can carry the required number of pax in and out of SCS at the cheapest cost is without doubt, the queen of the Shetland skies, the beautiful, the gorgeous, the delight to fly, my baby, THE BAe ATP!

Pratt and Whitney do it again!

[silverhawk]

ATP demonstrated X-wind limits

TO 36 kts

Land 34 kts

However Scatsta limit due terrain and RW width 25 kts only. Remember it is only a Cat C field.

Just a small point, the pax do not get to vote for which a/c will be appointed. The accountants take care of that and as already demonstrated over the last few years the a/c that can carry the required number of pax in and out of SCS at the cheapest cost is without doubt, the queen of the Shetland skies, the beautiful, the gorgeous, the delight to fly, my baby, THE BAe ATP!

Pratt and Whitney do it again!

[Zeppelin]

Steady on there Silver...you'll make me shed a nostalgic tear in my beer :)

Gloria- i've never heard of this left seat landing with the wind from the right thingy....maybe thats where i've been going wrong :)

Always found the stronger the wind only enhanced my legendary and world famous x-wind landing technique...which ever side the wind was coming from <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)

[Sabre Aviator]

ATR 42:
WIND LIMITATIONS

Take off
Dry RWY max. X-wind 45KTS
Wet RWY max. X-wind 38KTS

Landing
Dry RWY max. X-wind 38KTS
Wet RWY max. X-wind 30KTS

Take off & Landing
Tailwind max. 15KTS

And not really applicable for this:
CAT II OPERATIONS
Max. headwind component 25KTS
Max. tailwind component 10KTS
Max. X-wind component 20KTS

[silverhawk]

Sabre Aviator

just how do those figures pose an advantage for an ATR when the field limit at SCS is 25kts crossed?

Remember- minimum acceptable pax load 56.

I do however admit that the prop-brake-APU thing is a nice touch.

ATP was built for short haul, larger pax numbers and economy. Can't be bettered ( except for the Jetstream 61-----alas poor Yorick).

[Sabre Aviator]

Silwerhawk
What do you mean ?
I was answering Slizer`s question....
ATR`s got the 99,5 %++ dispatch advantage too...

[offload]

Seems to be a general feeling of dismissal of the BA Citi-Express boys pulling one out of the bag here. Previous experience of running a ABZ-SCS schedule, with the experienced crew still within the company.
3 Off The Tee, I'd love to know who you're reliable source is, but we'll talk about that one over a Bullfrog!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chins Up, It Could Be Worse..... <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[kursk]

there would appear to a somewhat premature posting announcing that " Alpine "has not got the contract on the Main forum...makes one wonderwhere he gets his advance information from?? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Mister Geezer]

I heard today that there are one or two BWA ATPs back in ABZ. Is this really the end of Alpine???? Why else would the ATP's be back in ABZ?

MG

[black beauty]

The ATPs never left Abz in the first place.

[united1]

You guys are still ignoring the BA CitiExpress proposals. They are a good bet. I'd put my money on them, from what I hear they are odds on favorite. 4 Dash 8-300's I the rumour I have heard.

Chins Up It Could Be Worse....... :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)

[Plane Speaker]

United1,

The oil consortium have not ignored Brymons proposal!! Thy apparently are the front runners, with 3 other bidders.....Westair of Sweden and BAC in a joint venture (ATP ops), Atlantic Airways with a 146 service, and Flightline, also with a 146 service. Dash8 vs. ATP vs. 146. Odds anyone?

[silverhawk]

Flightline's 146 only able to offer 1600kg payload out of Sumburgh last week and only 4000kg into Scatsta this week. The ATP has much better capacity under the same conditions. I can't see a 146 operator winning this one.

The Dash cannot carry enough bodies to fill 3 choppers.

As I have already said the right tool for this job is the ATP. The number crunching proves this. Performance and operating costs in all the conditions up there with the available runways make the ATP the only viable contender. If I can work this out then surely it's obvious.

As Alpine have already been rejected, such a poor decision, that would leave only BAC Express with an ATP bid.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I too doubt that the Dash 8 is upto this job, not only because it doesn't have the seating capacity, but also I doubt that if it were filled with male passengers (as most of the pax are male) that there'd be much to spare for baggage and freight. I would also like to add that it isn't only the ATP that has tech problems, which have been highlighted during this thread, but I am led to believe that the Dash 8 has been particlurly badly affected by problems for some considerable time, though it has kept Titan very happy.

[Boofy181]

I think it is time for a few facts to be pointed out here on the 146 v's Dash 8 v's ATP.

Firstly I don't think anyone can say or guess who is going to the contract because the IAC and the helicopter mob have some strange ideas as to the best aircraft for the job.

To sum up the Dash 8 and why it would not be good for the contract is that it cannot lift 3 Helo loads full stop. No good because you can't split them up otherwise it lengthens the whole day considerably and with the helo crews very tight for hours and no slack in the system no good.

The ATP is the best of the 3 for the contract. It can lift 3 helo loads in and out of SCS and LSI on any runway. It can accept braking actions as low as poor the whole length of the R/W, mind you not that any one would want to. The point is if required it can land with braking action lower than 0.4. What this all means is that if the weather in SCS is below minimas then it can divert to LSI and land with all pax on board.

The bad point about the ATP is its perceived reliability problems and I stress perceived. The ATP like all aircraft need TLC just like your woman. Treat them with respect and care and they will reward you handsomely. The ATP's in ABZ were no worse with BWA than any other operator it is just that they had spare aircraft to back them up or could call on ad hoc operators to fill in e.g. Titan. There was flexibility in the system but as someone else so rightly pointed out there was a couple of occasions when 2 aircraft were tech but that was due to a common problem across the whole fleet world wide. It took a while for the manufacturer to provide a suitable solution which when it came resolved the problem. The ATP is no different to any other aircraft operating in this cold, damp, salty enviornment. All other aircraft had just as many problems as anyone else. The ATP had it's enemies before it even started operating for the IAC. The ATP's did lack a little bit of TLC but these problems were being addressed as both BWA and the maintance provider had more experience with the aircraft. As for the post reporting that a 4th aircraft was in ABZ entirely for backup to the IAC, that is not correct. BWA was shifting the entire fleet to ABZ before the demise. It is true that it was used if one of the others had to have scheduled maintenace or if there was a tech problem that could not be repaired within a reasonable time frame. One more poit to add is that the contract called for 3 aircraft and the days flying could be completed with 2 if required but as time went by the IAC insisted on 3 being available all the time.

The 146. What can you say about this. The sector is less than 200 miles so therefore for a start it is not cost effective to run an aircraft with jets . The 146 is certianly not without its problems and the reliability is poorer than the ATP and I suspect more so operating in the enviorenment of the Northsea. Performace wise it has to have braking action better than good the entire length of the runway at both SCS and LSI and if it has to divert to LSI with the cloud base at about 300' then it can't go to LSI and land on the short runway without exceeding it's limits. Therefore back to ABZ for another go and no one gets left on the island and the backlog starts to grow. The only advantage that is obvious aprt from speed and leather seats is that it can lift considerably more out of SCS if required but if thye decide to lift 4 -5 helo loads from SCS then the oilies who arrived on the 1st or 2nd flights from the rigs will be extremely upset about waiting around in SCS in a terminal, when they could be home with family and friends, that doesn't exactly lend itself to comfort.

In conclusion the IAC will make the choice they think is the best, but they then have to live with it. I hope that the aircraft they do chose will do the job for the sake of those guys who work offshore because ultimaly they are the ones who suffer and they do a hard job living and working in insufferable conditions. The choice is going to come down to comfort versus cost. Are the willing to fork out many millions more for an aircraft with leather seats to carry the same amount of people. Lets not forget that the amount of people going through SCS now is not going to increase significantly as the airport is already at saturation point.

If any of what I have typed possibly not so correct then please correct me.

Best of luck to who ever gets the job.

Boofy. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Honest Fr@nk]

Hope the ATP gets it-Top slob for the job?

Oh and I'm not biased at all.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Course you're not biased Fr@nk, oh and why the change in spelling of the name???

Paaaaaaaarp! :)

[UKpaxman]

JGG,

Twas me that mentioned the 4th aircraft being stationed @ ABZ - the basis for this comment was a BWA Statement issued via Bristows following Shell (main user) spitting out the dummy with the services reliability. This was the 2nd time Shell had summoned BWA to explain what they were going to do to resolve the reliability problems. The 4th aircraft arrived a long time before Titan appeared with the ATR42 and the demise of the contract. I live in Shetland and have used ATP's regularly since BA replaced the 748's in the early 90's - BA's and BRA's problems with the planes over the years has been very public - I created a thread when the BWA service started asking why on earth they would want to change from the ATR's to the seemingly unreliable ATP's - consensus then was cost plus poss the move from LSI to SCS . I agree that on paper the ATP is the most suitable aircraft - but you have to trade this off with the knowledge that you're going to have more than your fair share of tech problems - which when affecting the Helicopter Ops (expensive bit of service) isn't something that makes sense (unless your an accountant !)Did a return trip on the 146 last week - impressed till the aircraft went tech and we had to wait for one of the others to arrive.

[trackdelta]

UKpaxman you seem to Contradict yourself in your last post. You say that the ATP would have its fair share of problems when operating, but then on your only experience of the 146 you say you had to sit around and wait due to tech problems. Does this not put your point into question. . .As I stated in a post before the ATPs with BWA did have their problems but I seemed to be because BWA Scotland were not getting the engineering support and spares required from HQ. If you look at the other ATP operators that have applied for the work ie BAC Express and Alpine, it would seem sensible to suggest they would be able to give more of their time and money (in terms of spares and engineering support) to these aircraft being their only interests. As one posted above with a bit of TLC the ATP is a great aircraft, more suitable for the job, even as you suggested as one who travels on it. Any operator who is willing to start up and devote their business ONLY towards this route with no other hidden agenda, must be worth their weight in gold.. .You must remember the slump in the airline market is only a tempory one. Six to twelve months down the line it will pick up again and those airlines who have gone into this with the agenda of a short term fix, in terms of gaining capital to survive through this period should be looked apon with caution. Aircraft will make more money operating on an adhoc charter basis on other routes than they will on what seems to be a very tight profit margin, on this route (ie the 146).. .From talking to friends in the industry I must say Flightline are in no better shape financially than BWA were before they went under. From what I can understand it was either them or BWA for the chop. Do the oil consortium really want to take that sort of risk again, to find out 6 months down the line they have to go through this all again. I suppose only time will tell.

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: trackdelta ]

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: trackdelta ]</p>

[UKpaxman]

It wasn't really a contradiction as I've no experience of the 146's reliability. Whereas I've spent many an hour at either end awaiting an ATP thats getting repaired or substitute aircraft to arrive - BWA,BRA and BA. Interestingly one of the threads above also questions the 146's reliability - <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> . No doubt whatever the end result the debate will continue. :)

[ICECREAM]

Lookes like it is going to be a competition between Fligt Line and Atlantic Airways, both operating Bae146... Atlantic`s advantage can be that they have operated the 146 into FAE for more than a decade, succesfully.. .A few data on FAE. .RWY 13/31 1250 MTR. .APPR: Non prec.. .Weather:unstable. .Closest Alternate: 400 NM away!

[Honest Fr@nk]

Rivet-. .So you are saying the bottom line is that the 146 would be "safer" to use on this contract than the ATP, therefore money shouldn't be an issue. What crap.. .And as far as operating the ATP in a x-wind-its not down to being a gambler. Its all about using the correct technique and adhering to the aircrafts limits my friend.If its out of limits you don't do it. Plain and simple.. .So I don't really know what your'e trying to say.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Rivet -

Honest Frank and myself are obviously wanting the ATP to get the contract as we may well then get a job after the sad demise of BWA, and whilst I respect your views on the ATP I think that your incinuation that it isn't a safe aeroplane is way off the mark, or indeed that the 146 is safer. You say that an ATP kissed the ground whilst trying to take off, I don't know the full facts of this incident, but the 146 hardly has an unblemished reputation. The ATP is perfectly safe, otherwise it wouldn't be allowed to fly!. .I think your comments re safety are unwise, if you thought the ATP wasn't safe why did you spend 2000+ hours in one????

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Johnny F@rt Pants ]</p>

[Rivet]

You have misinterpreted my message.. .So if it is misleading I apologise!. .Good luck with the job hunting.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I have been informed this evening that the final presentations were made today to the various companies, and that the contract will be awarded to the successful bidder on 15th Feb.

GO BAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

[Meeb]

If BAC do win it, will existing crew on the 360 & Fokker move onto the ATP? Will this create vacancies on the existing fleets?

[trackdelta]

I believe from crews who operated this route in the past with BWA, that the guys in Aberdeen who operated the ATP up their would be used on this route. Most of them are waiting to hear back on this. Makes sense really as they have the experience and local knowledge of the route. I also have heard that some of the ex- southend ATP guys are hoping to get in through an ex ATP Captain that is working for BAC - although not convinced as it seems to be a help your friends situation, leaving out a lot of good crews in Aberdeen. Shame really for the guys in Aberdeen who have worked so hard in the past for this consortium.

[Zeppelin]

Ummm.. think you will find that the same Aberdeen crews who were involved in the rejected bid by Alpine are now being put forward by the same people, who are now tied up with BAC.. .I dont think you'll see many Southend pilots getting a look in.

[kursk]

Track Delta.... .What about the equally "good crews " from SEN who worked just as hard on the contract during their frequent postings to ABZ?. .Why should they "not get a look in" as suggested by Zeppelin?. .I also understand that the "ex-ATP Captain" has been instrumental in keeping the employment prospects for former BWA ATP pilots alive when the bid by Alpine was rejected.. .On the maintenance/reliability side for the ATP, who is going to look after this as I believe that Caledonian Airborne who were also involved with the Alpine bid went into Receivership earlier this week? . .Anyway, I hope the final outcome provides employment for you all...whether from North or South of Hadrian's Wall or even from "down under".

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: kursk ]</p>

[lord melchett]

But then, as the saying goes, its not what you know but who you know. Just make sure the ATP Captain's glass is never empty!

[rightbank]

JFP

I thought the decision was due on the 8th or 9th. Any idea why it's delayed to the 15th?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

No <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Just means more waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Only a couple of days to go, and I've just heard that Brymon have withdrawn??????? Anybody care to confirm/deny this.

[peterking]

Hi JFP

Yeah, heard this yesterday via a very reliable source. Who is left in the running? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[rightbank]

If true, any ideas why? Not enough seats? Couldn't meet the price?

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: rightbank ]</p>

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Sumburgh- those left in the running are

BAC Express - ATP. .Flightline - 146. .Atlantic (Faroes) - 146

The reason I've heard for the withdrawal is that either BA or BA CitiExpress requested it. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[peterking]

JFP

Confirms what I have heard although I hear that only the two 146 companies are in the running. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[silverhawk]

tenders opened yesterday, 13th.. .Winner to be announced next Friday, 22nd

[Freddy Forks]

Why the long drawn out procedure. It really is getting stupid now.

[ICECREAM]

By pushing the date all the time is giving Flightline an operational advantage, as they are allready operating.....maybe the financial case is different...

[Exclusive Mandate]

Please excuse my ignorance.....

But, why doesn't the oil consortium operate back at its old base LSI...A little bit more flexible fixed wing operations allowed there. I know hatred rules the roost between the bases but again, with plans to extend runway at LSI and the Airport owners at some point going to take Scatsta soon...makes sense to me!

Can those helis do not stop LSI to the rigs?

. .In addition, what happened to the new Dornier 328 operator that was due to take the old BA / Loganair ABZ services...Has it died?

[UKpaxman]

Massive cost savings in moving to Scatsta - HIAL wouldn't play ball to reduce costs @ LSI. Good example is that at SCS the Firecrew also do the baggage handling, at LSI it's two different crews.

[Freddy Forks]

The firemen at SCS do everything and still find time to have a "kick-a-bout" on the apron. Good blokes.

[lord melchett]

Nothing but NDB or SRA (if you can get it)on one end and no DME. No procedure for 06 at all except circling from 24, (minima 960ft), runway in such poor condition mainly due to lack of sweeping up of lose chippings etc that did a good job on grinding off the props tips to fine points!

Good blokes they may have been but the place is still a dump with an unacceptable standard of navaids for regular passenger transport and should never have been considered.

[LowNSlow]

As I understood it SCS was originally reopened to support the construction of Sullom Voe Terminal with good old Dan Dair HS748s and Loganair Bandits around 1978. Ops to the rigs were expressly forbidden at that stage hence the 748's into ABZ and the Dash-7's into Unst.

I left there in '83 at the end of construction and offshore ops from SCS were still verboten then so I've no idea when it changed.

Ah 748, 20tonne twin dog whistle. Some of the DD crews got them in in horrendous conditions. I have no idea what the 748's limits were but it looked impressive to me.

Good luck to whoever gets the contract. From my experience in the North Sea, aircraft maintenance must be horrendous in the prevailing conditions.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

It appears that the Oil Consortium can't make the decision, they've put it back another week. It's getting ridiculous. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[peterking]

JFP

I hear that one oil company wants the ATP's while the rest want to stick with the 146's. How true this is I do not know.. . <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Freddy Forks]

Well call me stupid but surely they can sort this out without postponing each week. Something this important with a deadline must take priority over many other things - It should be a case of locking the boardroom and bashing it out(oooooohh Matron!!!!!). .http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/monksit.gif

[Aristo]

Seems to have gone a bit quiet about the contract. If it is due to start in the next couple of days then time is getting a bit short. Anybody any news? A lot of pilots are hanging on it outcome .

[Mister Geezer]

I presume Friday 1 March is still the proposed date for an announcement? While most of the banter on this topic has been on the suitability of aircraft on this route, it looks as if (according to previous posts) there are the 3 players left in the game. However my main fear is if the contract is awarded to Atlantic Airways, therefore probably ruling out any jobs to any Brits and especially any locals. Somehow I feel that heads will have to roll in Vagar before we would hear any non Faroese voices on the R/T using the 'Faroeline' callsign.

After so many years of UK airlines operating this route which led to many local pilots getting their foot in the door with that first job, I fear that this golden opportunity will disappear for those of us from the North East who have low hours.

Anyway as they say there is no point getting worked up over something that is not under your control? After all the economics will decide and may the best player win!

MG

[Data Dad]

Mister Geezer - Faroeline have at least one pilot with a very distinctive Antipodean accent! In fact the world seems to be slightly bizarre these days - Danish callsign, British accent; Logan, Antipodean accent; Eastflight, anything goes accent; and so on.....

[Jakup]

Heard that Atlantic Airways is looking for crew from the local area around Aberdeen to support them in the project, if they succeed.. . . .As a pilot in that region I would not worry. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Well I'm amazed nobody has filled in the final chapter, so I'll do it.

The contract has been awarded to Flighline.

So, best of luck to them, I'm off to carry on looking for a job.

[Red Four]

:) Well done Flightline. Keep up the good work.

[silverhawk]

Stand by your beds.

How long until Flightline are required by the Oil Consortium to re-equip with ATPs?

I think by August 1st, on my mark, mark.