Australian Landing Contextualised

[Anthony Supplebottom]

The Captain of an Australian JetStar airlines flight JQ57 forgot to lower the landing gear and had to perform a go-around because he was texting on his mobile phone air safety investigators have found.

The first officer twice tried to get the captain's attention to set a 'missed-approach altitude' and when he looked over noticed the 'captain was preoccupied with his mobile phone,' an official report into the incident said.

Australian Jetstar pilots had to abort touch-down because captain was distracted by mobile phone | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132132/Australian-Jetstar-pilots-abort-touch-captain-distracted-mobile-phone.html)

[Cyrano]

The Captain of an Australian JetStar airlines flight JQ57 forgot to lower the landing gear and had to perform a go-around because he was texting on his mobile phone air safety investigators have found.

If a pilot was texting while on approach, that would be grossly inappropriate, but the report you cite doesn't say that at all. It says that the captain was distracted by an incoming message on his phone [which he had presumably forgotten to turn off] and that he then tried to turn it off. If you're going to summarise the report, at least don't distort what it says, please.

[gcal]

Contextualised.....what in the love of everything does that mean :rolleyes:

[The Nr Fairy]

The ATSB report can be found by following this link (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-035.aspx).

[Ancient Mariner]

Cyrano, this is what the report says, my underline:
The captain stated that he was in the process of unlocking and turning off his mobile phone at that time and did not hear the call for the missed approach altitude to be set in the FCU.

[Denti]

Who hasn't forgotten to turn off his phone and gotten a message during approach, usually "Welcome to xxx, costs etc". What about simply ignoring it and sort it out once at the stand?

[hetfield]

Who hasn't forgotten to turn off his phone and gotten a message during approach, usually "Welcome to xxx, costs etc".Who knows..., could also be his girlfriend/wife.

However, not so pro.

[cwatters]

This section of the report appears to summarise the phone part of the incident..

Somewhere between 2,500 ft and 2,000 ft in the descent, the crew heard noises associated with incoming text messages on the captain’s mobile phone. The FO requested that a missed approach altitude of 5,000 ft be set into the Flight Control Unit (FCU)7 and, after not getting a response from the captain, repeated the request. The FO stated that he attempted to use the ‘RAISE’8 method from the operator’s Operations Manual to communicate with the captain.

The FO recalled that, after still not getting a response from the captain, he looked over and, on seeing the captain preoccupied with his mobile phone, set the missed approach altitude himself. The captain stated that he was in the process of unlocking and turning off his mobile phone at that time and did not hear the call for the missed approach altitude to be set in the FCU.

and later..

Phone records showed that there were no texts sent or answered by the captain during the approach.

[Intruder]

Captain oughtta be fired.

Forgetting to turn off a phone is not a sin. Failing to ignore the phone while on approach is a HUGE mistake. Allowing that distraction to interfere with flying the airplane, to the extent of failing to lower the landing gear, is inexcusable.

[Churchills Ghost]

gcal wrote: Contextualised.....what in the love of everything does that mean
I think the OP probably intended a play on words!

On the flight deck, off with the phone. Pretty simple rule really.

[EEngr]

Add this scenario (and similar ones) to simulator training: Some annoying but low priority interruption during a critical flight stage.

I wonder how many people religiously turn their phones off in the cockpit but might forget in the simulator. All the instructor has to do is text, "Hah. Made you look."

This is what the inbox and voicemail are for.

[Loose rivets]

Mmm, maybe a detailed chat to find out just what might have been coming in on the phone. And then fire him . . . unless it was for example, someone very sick in hospital, or some other really emotionally distracting issue, then some sick leave perhaps.

[macdo]

Hasn't it been a great week for showing off our professionalism on PPRUNE! Snow covered wings, mad CM1's, dazed and confused CM2's, fisticuffs on the flightdeck, pilots failing to notice a large hole in the fuselage and falling thru it and now someone texting on finals, really I think I'll vote myself a pay cut!:ugh:

[lilflyboy262...2]

Well done all the pilots calling for blood.

You know. A simple warning and something such as CRM and CFIT training wouldn't be enough though now, would it?
OFF WITH THE HEADS!

[blackhand]

@lilflyboy262
Logic will not be tolerated in a discussion about Jet*.

[Intruder]

You know. A simple warning and something such as CRM and CFIT training wouldn't be enough though now, would it?
He apparently failed CRM and CFIT training already, given the gravity of the situation. He's an allegedly fully qualified Captain, not an FO in training.

I've had 2 FOs in the past month use their cell phones while taxiing out. Both of them were new to the airline, though neither was new to the business. I let them know (individually and privately) in no uncertain terms that it would not be tolerated in my airline, and that was the only warning they would get.

I have NO CLUE why it would be tolerated in ANY airline...

[Geragau]

macdo
*
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 231
Hasn't it been a great week for showing off our professionalism on PPRuNe! Snow covered wings, mad CM1's, dazed and confused CM2's, fisticuffs on the flightdeck, pilots failing to notice a large hole in the fuselage and falling thru it and now someone texting on finals, really I think I'll vote myself a pay cut!


Tsk, tsk, tsk. All these terrible Asian pilots! What horrible standards! They must all be sent to Hamble for real basic training again. It's time airlines employ only real, well trained pilots with impeccable backgrounds, not riff raffs like these. I am sure there are lots of such poor excuses for pilots around and we need to do something about it.

[gerago]

I don't think an Australian pilot was in command of this Jetstar flight, can't be because I heard that they are the best, top notch. Maybe the SIN ATC was at fault for not warning them earlier that they did not have their landing gear down. You know, the SIN tower controller should have them in sight through his binoculars.

Another reason was maybe the VHF communication on SIN tower was so bad he tried using his mobile phone to contact the tower. Don't be so quick to judge, people.

[lederhosen]

As Denti says just ignore the phone. However something is a bit strange about the timings. I do not know how long it takes to switch off your phone. But descending from 2500 feet to 700 feet would normally take around two minutes. That is a pretty long time to be out of the loop and implies a serious loss of situational awareness by the captain.

[macdo]

GERAGAU, there was no reference to race or culture in my post which was a light-hearted global tsk!tsk! at our profession, as, of course, were the incidents referred to. Please make sure you fully understand a post before accusing someone of Racism.

[Yaw String]

Have to say, my sheepdog dog Chica, has welcomed me back from a few trips in the past, with a a fine choral barking on finals.
Made the F/O question whether dogs were allowed in J Class!
Now, on our 777's, I am reminded by the Preflight Checklist.."Mobile phones off" so...no excuse!
Far worse than that,... when my daughters secretly changed my ringtone to a very long and difficult raspberry.!...Was nearly thrown out of Borders,.. phone in back pocket..incoming call!...

"It wasn't me!!!..Oh really.....:sad:

[Tipsy Barossa]

Geragau, with the exception of the Firefly incident the rest of the pilots are CAUCASIANS. It ain't nice to post something without reading through or cross- checking what macdo was referring to.

[Geragau]

Oops, my bad!!!

It worked, it worked, it worked but I guess I gotta shut up now before I get banned.

[grimmrad]

And here we are being smacked by the CC when our phone is not immediately shut off in the conversation/last e-mail/text...

[D.Lamination]

Just shows ther ain't nothing new under the sun:

Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401)

Worrying about a measly light bulb in this case.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Who hasn't forgotten to turn off his phone and gotten a message during approach, usually "Welcome to xxx, costs etc". What about simply ignoring it and sort it out once at the stand?

I don't think an Aussie pilot or any other pilot outside the USA would have 'gotten' a message.

Just seeing the word is enough to set the hair of some British English speakers on end. Yet, despite the many claims that it is an Americanism, it is most definitely of British origin and the Oxford English Dictionary traces its first use to the 4th century.

[Airbubba]

Some of my brilliant colleagues have installed a fire bell for a ring tone when the wife or scheduling calls. I can see where this is going when the phone rings at 120 knots on the takeoff roll. I've already been treated to an inadvertent demo while taxiing.

[FLEXPWR]

I had once a "Woop Woop Pull Up!" as a ringtone....yeah I know...
It did not last long, as I could see the scenario in IMC: "Disregard mate, it's only my cell phone, keep going...."

Still I cannot imagine what is more important on short finals than focusing on handling the aircraft, mind you at 700 feet, even a fire bell would be disregarded (silenced first) and treated as a ground emergency, so why a cell phone buzz is such a priority?

I would call any sim instructor sending me text messages during a check ride a sadistic bastard. This kind of example has been described in instructor courses as the "smiling assassin" model, and surely brings a note of negative training.

As for texting while taxiing or any other phase for that matter, I fully agree it should not be tolerated, but what do you do when it's your flight examiner who is still reading messages while LINING UP on the runway? You know what, I said nothing, when I get my checkride signed, I'll run the ship with what I hope are better standards than him. He switched off the phone after line up. I think we would have had an argument if he hadn't. I am glad I did not have to find out.

Back to the topic, if there was any fatigue aspect, leading to lack of managing priorities, it would be interesting not just to look at the last rest period and declare someone fit, but also getting the broader image of a week or two of duty before the event. Some work patterns though legal can turn a fully functional pilot into a hovering zombie...

[Slasher]

The FO stated that he attempted to use the ‘RAISE’8 method
from the operator’s Operations Manual to communicate with
the captain.

Could somebody please explain what the "RAISE 8" method
is? Would it be elbowing him in the guts?

Captain oughtta be fired.

Yes of course - give him the instant boot. Sack him first, ask
questions later. Do not even ask him for any lessons that he
and/or the Company may've learnt through this event. Don't
even look at his record of service or consider any suspension
without pay of limited duration - just sack sack sack him! :hmm:

[Denti]

@Ye Olde Pilot, sorry if i did use the wrong word. English is just one of 5 languages i have to speak and i usually put it as third or fourth most important within the lot. Again, sorry for any mistake.

However, would you argue the point i was trying to make? Receiving text messages (called SMS over here) during flight happens, but it is no reason to rather handle the mobile phone than the airplane during final approach.

[Checkboard]

As for texting while taxiing or any other phase for that matter, I fully agree it should not be tolerated, but what do you do when it's your flight examiner who is still reading messages while LINING UP on the runway? You know what, I said nothing, when I get my checkride signed, I'll run the ship with what I hope are better standards than him.

Perhaps the examiner was testing your command authority & confidence? ;) You failed by not telling him to turn his phone off, as per SOP and Commander's safety instruction. :)

(Note: there is only one commander on any flight, and in our company that person is designated on the flight documentation. For line checks, the designated commander is the person being checked - not the TRE in the right hand seat.)

Could somebody please explain what the "RAISE 8" method is?
I've never heard of "RAISE8" Slash - but in Ansett we had a "guide to appropriate assertion" which ran through five steps:

A comment on a point of difference. e.g. "I think we may be a bit high."
A specific comment on the difference e.g. "We are now 2000' above the descent profile."
The "If ... then" statement, using proper titles e.g. "Captain, if we do not extend the airbrake, then we will be too fast for the approach."
The urgency statement, e.g. "Captain, you must act now! Use the airbrake!"
Should the other crew member fail to respond to this point, then taking control had to be considered.

... there was of course a caveat that time constraints may require you to skip to any step. Certainly any time a formal title was used on the flight deck, it got your immediate attention that the other crew member was concerned enough to begin the formal steps towards a take over :ooh:

[40&80]

Sooo...maybe three ffurther steps = the raise 8 target.
Number 8 could be ...Please now feel free to immediately and appropriately use the crash Axe?

[FlightPathOBN]

“The simulator session also identified a period of about two minutes between about 2800ft and 1000ft in the descent where no control manipulations or systems activation was recorded," the report said.

“In contrast, during that period, a number of tasks should have normally been completed in preparation for landing.”

These actions include putting the landing great down (which was still not deployed at under 500ft), selecting the auto brake and changing the configuration of the flaps.

It is likely that the first officer’s performance was “adversely affected by fatigue", while the captain did not appropriately monitor his actions or the aircraft's configuration.


Read more: Texting captain sparks Jetstar flight drama | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/jetstar-plane-in-close-call-due-to-texting-captain/story-e6frfq80-1226333106187#ixzz1tMK6aoSu)

[212man]

Could somebody please explain what the "RAISE 8" method

In the report the 8 is in superscript and denotes the 8th explanatory note in the footer!

[cwatters]

The footnote 8 just says..

8 An acronym for the operator-approved method of bringing any divergence from the standard operating procedures to the attention of the relevant crew member.

If the method didn't work perhaps the method needs to be reviewed?

[Dream Land]

Captain oughtta be fired? Why, I think the new age FO should be fired for not lowering the undercarriage, where's all the assertiveness they learn in CRM class?

He saw the captain was preoccupied, why didn't he take control? :rolleyes:

[ramius315]

There is nothing wrong with the RAISE method; the problem is the FO didn't go to the letter 'E' and instead deviated from it - by setting the Missed Approach Alt himself.

Don't call for the review of a method you know nothing about. :ok:

[cactusbusdrvr]

Who cares about the stupid cell phone? Why did the gear not get put down? Obsessing over the missed approach altitude is worrying about the wrong item on the checklist. Got to have the rubber to meet the road, that's what is important.

More likely he was finishing up a level of Angry Birds.

[Escape Path]

It is still not right that he (the FO) didn't noticed until that late in the approach that the gear wasn't down. In my opinion, every modern aircraft out there is built and designed in such a way that you can fly it single-pilot if the aircraft is in a "normal state".

Why didn't the FO complete the approach by himself and later telling the captain in friendly words that he felt it was not proper what he had just done?

Why the FO wasn't sufficiently in the loop to tell or know the gear wasn't down until 500ft?

How hard is it to ignore a phone? How hard is it to put it away from yourself if it continues to bother you?

[John Citizen]

Both pilots were Australian.

Captain got fired, FO kept his job.

[Ollie Onion]

Listen, the cell phone is a bit of a 'red herring' in this whole saga. Fact of the matter is that every now and then a set of circumstances present themselves that lead to a crew becoming distracted and forgetting to carry out normal actions. I seem to remember a story in the press from a couple of years ago regarding a Qantas 767? that ended up doing a missed approach in Sydney because they 'forgot' to put the gear down and got the 'to low gear' warning. Most of these incidents are caused pure and simply by distraction. We are trained to do things in a certain order and at a certain time and it CAN only take a minor distraction at an inappropriate time to get yourself totally out of whack. In this case it was the Captain's attention being taken away doing whatever he was doing with his phone, this led the First Officer to become distracted as well.

I have done it myself once, but not to this degree. We were on a complicated visual manourvre to a very scenic runway surrounded by terrain in Europe. We had always been taught that at 2000' you took Flap 2, Gear Down, Landing checklist. On this particular day I was flying and at 2000' I asked for Flap 2 and at that point the Captain pointed out a very impressive looking house on the side of the hill, it drew our attention outside the flight deck for a couple of seconds but it was enough to interrupt the normal flow. At around 1700' whilst trying to slow up to get Flap 3 out I commented that it was taking longer than normal to slow up, I had that feeling that something was not right and started going through my normal flow of 'right, we have flap, we have gear........ **** no gear!!!' Thankfully it was caught really early, but to this day I still remember it as an example of how quickly things can get out of shape.

In the Jetstar case these two crew had hardly said a word to each other for hours and were NOT providing good support for each other. The phone provided the initial distraction, then the go around altitude provided further distraction. I am sure they got the 'something is wrong' feeling. The biggest worry in this situation is how long it took them just to throw it all away and go around once the too low gear warning went off.

It is quite common for retractable undercarriage aircraft to be landed without the wheels, normally caused by the pilot having been distracted. No one sets out to make these mistakes, but they will ALWAY's happen, it is more important to react appropriately to the mistake, trying to push on and make the landing anyway is not the right response.

[Brian Abraham]

Distraction can come in many forms.

A story of how a crew of three very senior captains -- possibly the three most-senior in the system -- and two very senior flight engineers came as close as one would wish landing a 747 gear up.

Pelican's Perch #80: Gear-Up Landing In A 747? (http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html)

[Intruder]

The distraction itself is not the problem, but the way he mishandled it. He should have said his "Aw $#1+!" or whatever, and gotten back to flying the airplane.

[Dream Land]

Exactly, but the job of the FO is to take control if the CA is not responding, in this case, he failed.

[Escape Path]

Exactly, but the job of the FO is to take control if the CA is not responding, in this case, he failed.

He failed at both taking control and also trying to get the captain back into the loop

[Intruder]

I disagree. He didn't fail at trying; he just didn't succeed before the GPWS did.

Whether or not he should have initiated a go-around is subject to debate. It is a serious step to take when the Captain was allegedly the handling pilot, and was probably warranted in this case. However, I can't blame him for being reticent, at least to the point of the GPWS alarm or missed approach altitude, as long as the airplane was otherwise stable.

[kinteafrokunta]

I disagree. He didn't fail at trying; he just didn't succeed before the GPWS did.

Whether or not he should have initiated a go-around is subject to debate. It is a serious step to take when the Captain was allegedly the handling pilot, and was probably warranted in this case. However, I can't blame him for being reticent, at least to the point of the GPWS alarm or missed approach altitude, as long as the airplane was otherwise stable.


Wow, if it had been a co-pilot from the third world, there would have been deafening condemnation. Hypocrites you guys, aren't you? There would have been clarion calls for both pilots to be summarily sacked. Sheesh, what double standards!

[Escape Path]

I disagree. He didn't fail at trying; he just didn't succeed before the GPWS did.

Whether or not he should have initiated a go-around is subject to debate. It is a serious step to take when the Captain was allegedly the handling pilot, and was probably warranted in this case.

He didn't get the captain's attention back into the situation, he didn't do anything actually, regarding that matter. He also didn't successfully regain control of the airplane timely: Given the case he had tried to take control, he failed to have to airplane properly configured to land, not just the gear, but the whole lot: flaps, autobrakes, spoilers (as per the report) and both also failed to fly the go-around in a proper way; there was nothing but chaos from the point they discovered the gear wasn't down all the way up to almost the missed approach altitude.

FO was PF by the way. He didn't fail at trying, he and the captain failed altogether at conducting proper CRM

[Intruder]

Where/when did the info come out that the FO was PF? I hadn't noticed that in here.

[Escape Path]

Where/when did the info come out that the FO was PF? I hadn't noticed that in here.

Post #4 has a link to the report:

The ATSB report can be found by following this link.

...adding to the fact that the thread talks about the FO asking the captain to set the missed approach altitude as a sort of a "trigger event", meaning he was PF and captain PM

[Lookleft]

There,s a lot of reference to the F/O being PF but you have to read the report and not rely on Pprune to tell you. The F/O was PF not PIC. This whole Incident would not have happened if the Captain had been doing his job and monitoring the progress of the flight.