BEST CFS AC

[KPax]

As the Cosford airshow this year is going to celebrate CFS/CFS(H), I was wondering what was the best ac that CFS/CFS(H) had operated over the years.

[Mick Strigg]

Gazelle. Nuff said!

[fantom]

Bowlocks. Gnat.

[[email protected]]

Gnat - can go upside down 'n' stuff, can't hover.

Gazelle - can go upside down 'n' stuff, can hover.:ok:

[diginagain]

The beauty of the Gaz was that you could see what the clown sat next to you was about to do (to you), before he did it (to you).

[maximo ping]

In which case the answer must be Chipmunk. Lovely for upside downy stuff, and can hover in a stiff headwind. Oh, and smells like a proper aeroplane should.

[A2QFI]

Petrol, oil, and student vomit I don't think so!

[aw ditor]

Varsity! Kippers from Machrihanish and Deutsche Sekt from Gatow!

[just another jocky]

Hawk....most fun you can have clothed! :cool:

[tradewind]

Best CFS a/c?

Hawk XX172 - Despite all my attempts to screw it up, that a/c got me through an A2 checkride!

[Fareastdriver]

The Bristol Sycamore. If you could fly that you could fly anything.

[Old-Duffer]

Yeh the Sycamore!

I did the last SAR ever with a Sycamore, which was based at CFS(H) Tern Hill in Feb 66. This was a Saturday morning and two aircraft went off for the search in North Wales and I went along as crew.

If ever the RAF could find an aircraft less suitable to be used as a trainer it was the Bristol 171. It's eventual downfall came when several crashed at Tern Hill having run out of cyclic authority, with a strong wind under the quarter.

The other reason it was the best aircraft ever operated by CFS was 'cause it was followed by the Sioux which was just great!

Old Duffer

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Bulldog: call in for a cup of at tea at Gamston or Sturgate:-)

[chopabeefer]

Ladies, Gents, and those others we now so proudly invite into our fold, I give you the Wessex. No arguing now. Hover? But of course. Upside down/90Nose up wingovers/90 Nose down bunts? Naturally. And it smelled like an old car - leather, phenol, hyd fluid and grease. And if you were good, and listened very carefully, each one spoke to you. There will never be another like it....

[Rigga]

Whirlwind 3 /Mk10

A really nice to fly "hands on" helicopter - that looked nice too!

Simple to fix - and even I was taught to fly it - from the left seat.

Ah, those balmy days of Nav-Ex's from Tern Hill and camping in the back yard of a Snowdonia pub.

[teeteringhead]

I was about to agree with the Gazelle - then Mmmmmmm Wessex!

Can smell it now .......;)

Took XV 722 to Scampton for a CFS group piccie with Queen Mum in 1989 - with a total of 15 A2s on board!! :eek:

1.40 flying for an appointment of 1/250 second - the rotary riff-raff had to go back to Shawbury after the piccie - not invited to the Lunch! :(

[Herod]

Now I'm spoilt for choice. Sioux: lovely, wonderful visibility, and the instructors were just getting used to it as well. Whirlwind: a classic, what more can one say? Wessex: just one lovely machine. Did what it said on the tin. Happy days, far too long ago. :)

[jindabyne]

Look - you're all missing it. The Hunter came late to CFS, but as a side-by-side, spacious, and relatively friendly, high performance trainer, followed by solo in the GT6, what could've been a better orgasmic combination? All else pales ----.
And as for things that are made up from clattering bits of thin aerofoil and hundreds of other silly rotating bits that pretend to be aeroplanes, give us a break, please!

[BEagle]

Only those fortunate enough to have flown the GT6 understand how very true those words of yours are, jinda'!

No prizes for guessing the worst CFS aeroplane ever - it had to be the abysmal Jetstream T Mk 1. A truly wretched device.

[Sun Who]

When you say GT6, do you mean:

http://slatford.co.uk/Pictures%20of%20Cars/Triumph/69%20gt6.jpg

Regards,

Sun.

[jindabyne]

Don't be silly

[ExAscoteer]

Jetstream T Mk 1. A truly wretched device.

I disagree fundamentally with you Beagle. I loved every minute of flying the Jetstream and thought it was a cracking little multi trainer.

Granted the course wasn't much cop for those not going to Albert, but for those who were it was perfect.

[jindabyne]

I flew it once and didn't consider it to be an aeroplane!

[Old-Duffer]

GT6 - you surely don't mean the Albemarle?????????

going back to sleep now, bye bye.

Old Duffer (lost the plot, again)

[wiggy]

Wot, no votes so far for the MK 3 JP ?? :E :E :E :E

[BEagle]

For those who really don't know what the GT6 was :\ , here's a piccy of a model which I found on the Internet:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/GT6.jpg
(A few details are incorrect - no spine UHF antenna, no wing root 'letterbox' intakes, wrong location for the M-B decal, drop tank fin angles incorrect - but otherwise very nice indeed).

The GT6 was a stripped-down Hunter F Mk 6. No guns or sabrina link collectors, radar ranging, gunsight or Rebecca DME system. Instead it had TACAN, was painted in high-gloss polyurethane rather than camouflage and with the big Avon, it went like stink!

[27mm]

JP3 gets my vote - just for the giggles when the ex-Harrier CFS course studes went to max chat, released the brakes and then quickly slammed the throttle shut, 'cos as far as they were concerned, nothing was happening!:)

[aw ditor]

Thanks exAscoteer; for your supportive comments on the Jetstream. At the time (1974 ish') it was really "that-or-nought" as the M.E. trainer, or the MRVA (Must Refurbish Varsity Again). There was a political/industrial aspect as well but the type was saved from the Handley Page debacle to go on to become the modestly successful J31/J41, many of which are still operating today. Its then primary rival was the Kingair 90/200 Series which of course is now doing the M.E. training job at Sleaford Tech. Though a well-proven airframe/engine combination, and in use in the M.E. training role by the U.S. Navy, that presumably wasn't chosen for the aforementioned political/industrial reasons?

[oldbeefer]

"with a total of 15 A2s on board!!"

Couldn't have had much fuel then!

[lsh]

So the Crewman was an "A2" as well then!

lsh
:E

[teeteringhead]

Couldn't have had much fuel then! ... cheeky Puma pilot! ;)

But one of the A2s was M** M******y ..... :)

But then another one was me ....... :(

[And to be fair, we probably did refuel at Scampton before coming back ... thinks: memory and back of fag packet says average 3400 disposable for a training ac - including 3 x (A2!) crew - so the other 12 @ 200 lbs leaves 1000 lbs fuel. 50 mins en route uses about 700 lbs - land with 150 a side - 50 a side above minima! Sorted! So I guess that refuel at Scampton was a definite then :ok:]

Edited to add: Yes he was Ish, one MALM J*** M***n was my operating crewman (+ I think one of the pax was a "freight deck executive" as well)

[ShyTorque]

1.40 flying for an appointment of 1/250 second - the rotary riff-raff had to go back to Shawbury after the piccie - not invited to the Lunch!

Aha, so there is justice! Speaking as a riff-raff rotary course graduate not allowed to attend our own graduation lunch in the Shawbury OM, because the guest of honour was a member of the Royal Family!

We had to make our own arrangements for our visiting families. We were obliged to go down the local pub who could only rustle up a few ham sandwiches. Worse still, a bill for the formal lunch appeared on our following month's mess bill. :ugh:

Hardly a glorious welcome for those just beginning a career serving her Majesty. :rolleyes:

Anyway - Although I initially trained on the JP3 and 5A, then Whirlwind 10 and Wessex 5, my vote also goes to the Gazelle, a cracking little sports car of a helicopter. :ok:

[Old-Duffer]

I've only ever been upside down in a helicopter once and that was near RAE Bedford in about 1988. A fine chap in dark blue offered me a go, which it would have been rude to decline. As we were stooging along, he said something along the lines of: 'are your straps really tight because I haven't tried this recently?' Over we went in roll and it was a bit alarming at first but after that I knew what to expect.

Years later, the school at which I help with the CCF, had a visit from an Army version of same bouncing African animal. The pilot was taking several cadets at a time for a brief flip but the (ex-Para) school RSM insisted on making himself 'ground i/c' despite my best efforts to persuade him to leave it to me. On landing and before being cleared by the pilot, said RSM tried to open the locked passenger door and when it wouldn't budge he applied some prime para regt beefcake and ripped the bloody door off its hinges - end-ex for cadet flying that day! and exit one pi%^&d off AAC pilot with door secured by rope back to Middle what'sit.

The only good thing is that every now and again I get the chance to remind him of the occasion.

Old Duffer

[Dan Winterland]

Jetstream? FFS!



Another vote for the Chippy.

[ShyTorque]

I learned about "who has control" early on during the CFS course on the Gazelle on a "mutual" sortie. Myself and my stick buddy got a little out of synch and suddenly both thought the other had control and was "having fun". When we got to about 100 degrees nose up, and rapidly increasing, we both looked across at the other and then thought "????" because we both realised the aircraft was flying itself - we both had our hands on our knees.

Then we both said "I have control!" at the same time, grabbed the controls together, and mutually wobbled our way through a "roll off the top" of what was somewhere between a mega-wingover and a half loop. Thankfully we both tried to roll the same way or it could have got even worse!

We had a good mutual debrief about that one i.e. we both used similar swear words... :E

[Fareastdriver]

Gazelle on a "mutual" sortie

Put two trainers together and you are inviting disaster. Put two supervisors together and you are guaranteeing it.

[Cornish Jack]

Rigga got it right with Fareastdriver, Herod and Old Duffer in joint second.

[Tourist]

Gazelle


Most helicopters talk to you as you fly.

Usually they say "don't do it........ohh that was a bit rough.....oops you messed that up.."

The gazelle sits on your shoulder whispering "..go on, you know you want to....just try it, I'll make sure it looks good...it'll be fine......nobody's watching"

[chopabeefer]

Tourist. Gazelle.....Oh dear. You are so right. I may have to change my mind. Then again, Walter sat there, grinning daftly, saying "Whatever you do, I'll get on with it - I can't do anything perfectly, but I can do everything. Try it, it may not be pretty, but you'll get away with it."

Think I'll stick with Walt, 'cause he had 2 engines, and I once landed one, and shut down, in Trafalgar Square (RNLI Day) - won't forget that in a hurry - and no birdstrike either!

But Gazelle - Mmmmm, nice. Never flew the Hunter (not talented enough - rotary pilot you see...:hmm:), but have never heard a bad word about it. Strongly suspect it was the fixed wing Wessex from what I have heard.

No matter what your chariot of choice, good times all - beats being a civvy.

[Fareastdriver]

Judging by the vintage of aircraft being put forward it is obvious that the current trainers in the RAF are appallingly dull.

[Herod]

Little "war story" re Wessex, if I may. Stamford PTA, hot summer's day. No. 3 in a formation with a 105mm howitzer slung underneath, just about max wt. No. 1 engine decides to wind down. We were being filmed for an army recruiting poster, so it was suggested that if I was going to pickle the gun, would I do it in the river since it would look good on film. Decided instead to see if we could put it down gently. Made an approach to the field, hovered out of ground-effect, landed the gun, moved over and landed alongside. At the time I believe the Wessex was the only helicopter in the UK, military or civil, that had a genuine engine-out capability. :ok:

[ralphmalph]

Judging by the vintage of aircraft being put forward it is obvious that the current trainers in the RAF are appallingly dull.

Rotary perspective.

Indeed; the Sq is reliable, safe and cheap.....and does not have nasty handling characteristics which kill poor unfortunate studes.....how boring.

We do all the horrible stuff on Cold War helicopters in the desert now......lets leave the nasty stuff till later......dull is good by me!

;-)

[ShyTorque]

Ralphmalph, now you've set a challenge, I'll bet someone mentions a certain handling phenomena potentially affecting both the "Gz" and the "Sq". :oh:

I think neither has ever killed a British military student. But a rally driver, possibly.

[Old-Duffer]

Shy Torque,

Before discussing rally - or any other sort of driver, does one need to differentiate between military flying and civilian licences - current, expired or non existant?

Old Duffer

[Fareastdriver]

Rotary perspective.

Indeed; the Sq is reliable, safe and cheap
SQUIRREL CRASH CHETWYND 20 APR

Oh dear! Rather inconvenient. It is amazing that as soon as one describes anything as the salt of the earth the wreckage comes flying through the window.

[jindabyne]

BEags -- shows the correct positioning of the MB decal, atop my swede

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb59/malgrosse/img019.jpg

[fantom]

That's a fine 208 eye you're sporting. I've still got mine too.

[exMudmover]

I think you have to link Best CFS A/C to a period of history to get the full picture.

Ahh the 60s! JP4s and tons of illicit Air Combat during ‘mutuals’ over the vale of Evesham.

For most of the 60s, before the expensive new types arrived, (Phantom, Harrier, C130), etc., there was still a hangover of the WW2 can-do and stuff the regulations attitude, and there were still a lot of ex-WW2 pilots instructing.

As a splendid old (he must have been at least 40) ex-Spitfire Master Pilot told me at Cranwell, the JP4 performs a bit like a late-mark Spitfire.

That was good enough for us reluctant Creamies at Rissy. On each mutual you would approach any other JP and see if he wanted to play. Once you were off all the rules went out of the window . What rules? We had no training in Air Combat or awareness of any of the safety requirements. We got stuck in and taught ourselves - like rookie Battle of Britain pilots up against 109s we either won or got massacred, and no-one was firing live ammunition.

Any tactic was used to gain advantage: In and out of cloud, rolling scissors close in until you could count the rivets, flick manoeuvres, (very interesting for someone just a few yards behind you!), the whole thing ending up in a chase around the woods and fields of the Cotswolds at low level.

How did we survive? Just luck, that’s all. And the lessons learned proved invaluable later on on sharp aeroplanes.

[RodfjH]

The Gnat was brilliant.
Does anyone remember the cartoon in the linehut: "This one's too small chief, have you got a bigger one"?

[Wholigan]

That would have applied especially to Roger Turnhill Rod. ;)

And yes the Gnat was indeed brilliant.

[Wander00]

Gnat - still brings a grin to my face, and my wife things I'm dreaming about some lttle blonde on TV!

[Lightning Mate]

....and with the big Avon, it went like stink!

It sure did, but not as well as a certain jobber with two of them, one above the other, in burner. :E

[Wholigan]

You suggesting the Lightning should have been a CFS trainer??? ;)

[Lightning Mate]

Nah mate, but remember the Jaguar was originally designed as wun wunnit. ;)

[blaireau]

Rejected due lack of performance ISTR!

[Lightning Mate]

Methinks it was handling actually.

Your turn. :)

[Bob Viking]

Someone has already mentioned Hawk (and I would second it) but only an idiot would suggest the Tucano.
BV:E

[Monty77]

Tucano.

A well built and easily maintained advanced trainer with jet-like handling.

I. Diot:{

[Lightning Mate]

Wasn't it built in Oirland.......? :E

[Monty77]

Shorts of Belfast, to be precise. With Brazilian bits.

Engineers hated it (as I was told) because you couldn't 'rob' airframe bits off a hangar queen to keep the right number on the daily line. Some rudders were simply not compatible with other airframes on the fleet.

Gazelle. Outstanding. It had autoland, especially during Engine Offs at Ternhill (whilst dual, obviously). Simply loosen your grip on the cyclic, whilst maintaining a semblance of contact with the controls, and, Voila! A perfect slidey arrival on the grass. 4's or 5's every time. Who's going to slag off their own efforts?:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

a hangar queen

You can't say that - discrimination 'an all that.....!!!!!!!:E:E:E:E:E:E

[Fareastdriver]

Gazelle. Outstanding. It had autoland,

The Sycamore did too. I never did an engine off in a Sycamore. It had a central collective lever so at the appropiate times you could feel the instructor pushing your hand up.
I can remember it now:
Throttle closed lever fully down.
Establish 70 knots.
Collective pitch to 2 degrees engine to 1500 rpm.
When sure of reaching EOL area reduce to 45knots close throttle and pull slow running cutout.
(the engine is now stopped so you are committed).
At 200 ft fl flare hard to minimised forward speed.
At about Jeeeessssuuuus height pull half collective to check descent and ease cycle forward to ensure some groundspeed.
Just before impact use all collective to cushion landing.
IMMEDIATELY after landing carefully lower collective and restart the engine before the rotor decays with the inevitable risk of the blades chopping the tail off.
My instuctors did it perfectly every time.

The engine had to be shut down to stop the throttle cam causing the engine to burst into life when you pulled up the collective.
You had to land with forward speed because the undercarriage was hinged laterally so if you landed with zero airspeed the u/c would spread and the tyres would roll off.

[Herod]

IIRC, on the Whirlwind, at Jeeeesssus height, you counted to three (slowly) and THEN pulled enough colective to arrest the descent. Wonderful things, low-energy rotors. :eek:

[ShyTorque]

Whirlwind "Range auto".... 80 kts and 180 Rotor RPM, I think?

You could see the individual blades going past, quite unnerving.

[Monty77]

Guys,

I am seriously impressed by your recollection of the numbers.

For me, Ternhill was a blinding nightmare of helmeted, moustache-faced loonies leering at me,asking if we're 'gonna make it'. In my nightmares (and in real life,actually) whatever I said, be it 'Yes!, No!, Or for 'For f*ck's sake, snake!', they would inevitably reach to the roof and disconnect the engine from the whirly bit with the little yellow handle of 'was that really necessary?'.

Fluttering down into the sea of disgruntled post-PFL gazelles sat on the grass having a long chat about how it could all have been better, I would often take a couple of seconds out to remind myself of the facts that I was not the Captain, he'd signed it out out and he'd disconnected the engine. My stampede to Air Rank was secure, as long as I got the f*cker with the fire axe as he crawled from the wreckage.

QHIs eh? About as welcome as a QHI on an overseas landaway. I sh*t 'em. No really, I do.

[ShyTorque]

Gazelle. Basic course, Low level EOL demo (students weren't required to fly these, only watch his QHI).

However, Pre-brief and student participation was required. QHI briefs student how to manage the throttle, on the ground, prior to flying a positioning circuit to the EOL.

1. QHI: "Identify the throttle" (i.e not the fuel shut off or rotor brake). Student required to point correctly at throttle lever.

2. QHI: "Throttle - Out of the gate!" Student required to move throttle sideways, out of the gate.

3. QHI: "3-2-1-NOW!...retard the throttle on 'now'. Student required to do just that.

4. QHI: "Got that, Bloggs?"

5. Student: "Yes, sir!"

6. QHI: "Good, off we go then!"

Positioning circuit flown, descending to 100ft agl on the run in to Tern Hill. Plan is to fly at 100ft agl, 120 kts. On the run-in, when stabilised, student to manage the throttle, using previous brief (remember, 3-2-1-NOW!). After throttle retarded, QHI to make an impressive zoom climb to approx 450 ft agl and carry out a variable flare EOL to airfield.

So:

7. QHI: "Identify the throttle!"

Student reaches up and without further ado, immediately retards throttle!

8. QHI: "Bastaaard!" :eek:

[Cornish Jack]

Shy Torque - range auto, indeed ... as proved by a certain Antipodean instructor at Valley who went out to South Stack on a very on-shore windy day, computer-out, wound it back to 180 -ish and 'slope-soared' for long enough to raise concerns that he MUST have run out of fuel!! Still lots of 'go-juice' in the tank on return.

[Rigga]

"You could see the individual blades going past, quite unnerving."


Yes....but apart from that, it was okay...wasn't it?

[ShyTorque]

Probably get a bit worrying if you could only count two blades and there were supposed to be three of them...

[Fareastdriver]

Lost two pockets on one blade in Borneo. Doesn't half bounce around a bit.

[PARALLEL TRACK]

No mention of the Dominie especially good fun at 500'......ish. Great fun whizzing around the UK. Also around Europe although my memory fails me but I think it was 1000'. It might has well have been 10000' after the weekend landaway in RAFG. I always knew it was a good idea to lead on the way out!

[ExAscoteer]

Dominie - cracking little jet, especially post avionics update.

Dutch low level was 1000ft with (in my time) a W/E at Ramstein. Friday night was break the nav studes in the O Club, Saturday shopping in the B/X, and Sunday all day brunch.

Happy days.

[teeteringhead]

Dutch low level was 1000ft ... think my nose bleeds up there ......;)

[Lightning Mate]

You need oxygen n'all.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If you are in a Belgian helo with a Brit flying it and a German in the back, Dutch low level is 10 feet.:E

[Herod]

As my Flight Commander on 72 used to say "If you aren't hitting your wheels on the ground every hundred yards, you're flying too high"

[fantom]

Why should fling-wing silly people be allowed to post here?

Discuss.

[Squat switch]

Why should fling-wing silly people be allowed to post here?


Because we have more fun!!!

I fly both:ok::ok:

[charliegolf]

Why should fling-wing silly people be allowed to post here?



Considerably better stories?:)

CG

[ExAscoteer]

.. think my nose bleeds up there ......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifSo did mine.


Unfortunately the Cloggie greens would allow us to do proper low level. :rolleyes: :ugh:

[oldbeefer]

CFS(H) acceptance check on the Gazelle (after donkey's years on Pumas) with OC B... P.... Running in to Ternhill, thought I'd see how my stude coped with an engine failure quite far from the field. Pulled the throttle unannounced; BP lowered the lever, looked at the airfield, looked at me, took his hands off the controls and said "I want F all to do with this - you have control".

We made it - just. I learned about instructing .....etc etc.

[Monty77]

Fantom.

All military flying is better (more fun) than civvy flying.

Turning upside down is fun. G is OK. Putting your tailwheel on the needle spike of a German Alpine peak then conducting a 360 spot turn around the wheel on a gin clear, cloudless, windless day beats most stuff.

Horses for courses, really.

Each to his own. In the words of the beer advert:

"I've got this, you've got that. I've got it right, end of chat."

Better to be a transport pilot sampling all London has to offer than a 20-something virgin Tornado pilot stuck in Lossie beating off in his lonely room in the Mess in Lossiemouth prior to the Valley posting as an instructor.

Then he gets the inflatable upgrade.

Rotary blokes pity you. Because you get all the ****ty postings, with none of the advantages.

Birds don't care how fast your jet goes.

[oldbeefer]

'Rotary blokes pity you. Because you get all the ****ty postings, with none of the advantages'

Yes, I had to put up with tours in France and Germany. Detachments to Norway, Canada, Belize, Cyprus. Visits to Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, Oman, Bangladesh etc etc etc.

Bloody awful job.

[charliegolf]

In layman's terms. And while you're typing, what went before it? Ta.

CG

[Fareastdriver]

oldbeefer. That list of places are now ancient history. Most of them will never see an RAF roundel again.

[ShyTorque]

Ancient history...and here we are, part of it! :D

[oldbeefer]

And I have no complaints at all!

[Hueymeister]

Done most parts of the world in both wokkas and heavy jets...both have pros and cons. I really enjoyed flying the Chipmunk, pure stick and rudder stuff as was the Tiger Moth. I loved the Huey for just the same reasons; maybe we should continue to teach elementary studes on stick 'n rudder stuff, then allow AFT to introduce the glass cockpit and HUD stuff?

From a rotary point of view, I really enjoyed beefing on the Squirrel. Easy to teach on as it was straight forward to fly and it's vices are few and far between.

[Dan Winterland]

Group 3 accommodation = tent
Group 1 accommodation = on base
Group 2 accommodation = hotel





(Well, that's what it used to be when I left 10 years ago).