Avoiding venus...

[atakacs]

The Air Canada Boeing 767–333 (registration C–GHLQ, serial number 30846) was operating as flight ACA878 from Toronto, Ontario, to Zurich, Switzerland. Approximately halfway across the Atlantic, during the hours of darkness, the aircraft experienced a 46–second pitch excursion

The rest is here - TSB report (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11f0012/a11f0012.asp)

Although some will certainly make great use of "The FO initially mistook the planet Venus for an aircraft but the captain advised again that the target was at the 12 o'clock position and 1000 feet below" it still doesn't show great airmanship.

[Tarq57]

Some pretty good analysis and info about fatigue in that report.
Anyone who does shift work has probably experienced sleep-inertia. It can be very disorienting.

Worth reading.

[kinteafrokunta]

The f/o must be one gungho fly by the seat of the pants ace with lightning quick reflexes, superb at hands on manual flying! In his mind, do not trust those electronic gizmo like TCAS, EPGWS...they are always giving false indications. Can blame him as he was probably still in dreamland and may still be in dreamland even when fully awake.

In my experience, if one wants to take a " controlled " nap, I always make sure the seat is retracted full back and reclined back with the pilot fully strapped with seat belt and shoulder harness so that he/she does not accidently interfered with the controls in case of sudden reaction to nightmares or agitation. I had one guy who woked up suddenly with a jerk, kicking the rudder and his hands flailing across to the thrust levers!

[publius]

Transportation Safety Board of Canada - AVIATION REPORTS - 2011*- A11F0012 (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11f0012/a11f0012.asp)

What is interesting but sad, is that the Relief Pilot who was to operate the return leg, ZRH-YYZ, was deadheading in the back. Air Canada, it seems, are trying to save a few bob, as a DHD only attracts 50% of the pilot's hourly rate.
Increasing shareholder value, while at the same time sacrificing flight safety has to be a major concern for those pax travelling Air Canada!
Comments?

[AOB9]

Having spent many years on shift work in the pharmaceutical industry I can confirm that 'sleepiness' can create some pretty weird "illusions". Actually I'm surprised to read that a sleeping pilot can have such rapid access to controls on waking.

[fox niner]

From the report:

Before he had children, the FO's normally slept 8 hours per night. After having children, the FO normally slept approximately 6 to 7 hours per night, between 2300 and 0600, which could often be interrupted when the children required care. Often, the FO would take a nap early in the afternoon for an hour in an attempt to make up for lost sleep. The FO followed a normal sleep pattern during the 2 non–working days prior to the occurrence. The night before the occurrence, the FO was able to obtain nearly 8 hours of rest with some child care interruptions before waking at approximately 0600.

Soooo.....being an airline pilot AND having small kids at the same time is inevitably going to cause fatigue problems??? Well I agree entirely but what can we do?

[lederhosen]

The really important bit is not to sleep too long. A lot of people think the longer you sleep the better. With controlled rest this is a dangerous assumption. It is extremely important that the nap be no longer than forty minutes. Sleep inertia may (I emphasize may) also have played a role in the Air India Express disaster. I have done a great deal of night flying over recent years and my experience is that a few minutes napping can be extremely helpful, but it needs to be carefully monitored.

[DavidWoodward]

The best quote is off Yahoo saying that "The Air Canada pilot was apparently suffering from "sleep inertia" -- the stupor that follows a long nap -- when he sent the plane plunging some 400 feet in 46 seconds, throwing those not wearing safety belts out of their seats."

I'll remembed that insane VS next time I'm landing the Ikarus...

[Basil]

Lots of pilots have flashed the headlights at Venus :O
Recollect elderly BOAC skip saying "Isn't it just lorry drivers who do that sort of thing?"

[Lurking_SLF]

Aside from the serious issues of fatigue, it makes me feel fell much happier that as SLF I always have the belt on during cruise. (Despite what my wife thinks!)

Lurking....

[Imperator1300]

Similar 'mistakes' made in the maritime world, where Venus is taken to be the stern light of another ship (when slightly above the horizon, a ship close by!).

Less dramatic consequences, of course :).

[scotbill]

Isn't it more likely to be Sirius - the brightest star in the sky - which often seems to be changing colour as it rises in the East and is therefore more easily confused with an aircraft?

[Nopax,thanx]

Does anyone else get the irony that an aircrew member took action to avoid Venus?




Once they land and get to the hotel they spend most of their time chasing it :E

[crosswindaviator]

My Sfo asked yesterday if Venus was an aircraft :)

And he was wide awake :}

[JW411]

I had an old friend who was a Wop/Ag on Lockheed Hudsons in 1941/2. He actually opened fire on Venus off the coast of Holland one night. He missed.

[Tarq57]

I had an old friend who was a Wop/Ag on Lockheed Hudsons in 1941/2. He actually opened fire on Venus off the coast of Holland one night. He missed.
How do you know?

[Cacophonix]

What is an sfo?

A sleeping first officer or, maybe a little like Venus, an unidentified flying officer or object!

Seriously though I don't know anything about Air Canada's SOPS but surely they mandate a couple of minutes before an officer who has been sleeping is allowed to take control? This incident is just another marker in the long fatigue debate! Anybody for a 3rd pilot on certain flights?

[pudoc]

This needs to be shoved and rubbed in EASAs face until they get the message to leave Euros FTL alone.

[Huck]

"An evening with Venus; a lifetime with Mercury....."

[awblain]

There are some very sensible comments that note that Venus is currently in the West in the evening. That's true, but this event took place in January 2011, when Venus was rising in the East ahead of the Sun in the morning.

[NOTanAM]

Ok, so, this pilots sleeps as he is permitted to, but have you never experienced dreaming about things that happens around you? Audition is the sense that used to wake us up over the presence of a predator. In emergency first aid, they tell us to yell loud a victim's name in order to try to bring back an unconscious patient. (along with other measures including inflicting pain) It is understood that audition is the last sense to switch off when you sleep and when you sink into a coma.

AC SOPs indeed says a pilot can't touch the controls 15 minutes after waking up from a sleep period. Could this pilot have heard the com chat in its integrality or just his co-worker answering control about the incoming plane? I can almost then get into his dream (like in the movie Inception) that he is at the controls and for reasons that only happens in nightmares, he can't get out of its way. The plane either doesn't answer his commands or the other plane matches his every moves. He wakes up, still somewhat dreaming (hence the rule) and instinctively, for self preservation, he takes controls to continue trying to avoid the non-incoming plane. Can we even call that some form of somnambulism here?

Anyway. To me, this incident illustrates more the indiscipline of passengers when you tell 'em to buckle up. As a SLF too, the thing I fear most when I fly, is getting a 90Kg person in my face.

[Gary Brown]

Exactly so! The incident happened "mid-Atlantic", roughly eastbound, at about 0200 EST, which I'd approximate as - say - 0530 local. That's just before local sunrise, with Venus somewhat East of South, and heading "southwards". The planet, at that time, was also fairly low in the sky. So the FO was looking into the rising sun, with Venus fading both in terms of relative brightness, and sinking away slightly to his right.

[eastern wiseguy]

Years ago I had a Spanish crew refuse takeoff clearance until the "one on final has landed" .

Bit of a wait as it was Venus.......in fairness it was pre tcas and the object was awfully bright!:ok:

[caber]

Just can't figure out why people don't leave their seatbelt fastened while in their seats, even a loosely fastened one would keep you from banging off the ceiling as some of those pax claim.

[Jim-J]

Any speculation as the the extent of the "injuries" on board?
With a VS of 400fpm up, then down, surely a few of the SLF'ers are just after a payout or wanting to sue AC for the said acquired injuries?

My 2c

[Tarq57]

Any speculation as the the extent of the "injuries" on board?
With a VS of 400fpm up, then down, surely a few of the SLF'ers are just after a payout or wanting to sue AC for the said acquired injuries?

It's not the amount of the excursion; it's more to do with the rate.
With the forces quoted below, this is more than enough to throw an unsecured object (or person) fairly gently at the ceiling, then violently at the floor.

During the pitch excursion, the aircraft pitch changed from the cruise attitude of 2 degrees nose up, to 6 degrees nose down followed by a return to 2 degrees nose up. The vertical acceleration forces (g) went to −0.5 g to +2.0 g in 5 seconds.

I would have no idea how many, if any, would be exaggerating the severity of their injuries for a better payout.

[stilton]

what's the problem ? he didn't hit it..

[Jim-J]

Tarq57 - fair point regarding the rate 2.0g's.....

[Robert G Mugabe]

Im surprised no one has admitted avoiding uranus yet

[Island-Flyer]

Once going into KLAX after a long flight from Europe my copilot and I saw what appeared to be an aircraft converging with us rapidly. We could see the green nav light on one side and the red on the other, but they were reversed from the norm.

We were close to taking evasive action when we realized it was two aircraft diverging in the distance rather than one aircraft getting closer. We laughed about it and carried on, but to both of us it looked like a converging aircraft until we recognized it was not - then we couldn't see how we thought it was converging.

I doubt we would've had that problem if we weren't coming off of a 14 hour duty day.

[PTR 175]

My concern is that the pilot in charge did not obey the rules of the air. In that he chose to push the controls forward instead of instigating a right turn as laid down in the rules of the air. Unless airline pilots have different rules to us private pilots.

I also applaud the other poster, who stated to the effect, that the Pax who were injured were not strapped in as per the illuminated sign and no doubt the accompany announcement. Maybe a time to put a note, to remind people to strap in, and its effects, gibving examples in the duty free magazine, company in flight magazine and Sky Mall ! reminding them of there obligations.:=

[cwatters]

Originally Posted by TSB report

During the pitch excursion, the aircraft pitch changed from the cruise attitude of 2 degrees nose up, to 6 degrees nose down followed by a return to 2 degrees nose up. The vertical acceleration forces (g) went to −0.5 g to +2.0 g in 5 seconds.

Lets assume that the initial dive was gentle and you floated up to the ceiling a height of say 2.5m max above the floor. Your relative velocity is zero, then the plane hits 2g. How fast do you hit the floor, the arm of a chair etc..

v^2 = u^ + 2as

Assume:
u^2=0
a = 2g

V= SQRT(4gs)
so
V= SQRT (2 * 2 * 9.8 * 2.5)
V= 10 meters per second.

Thats 22mph into the relatively solid floor or the arm of a seat etc. That's going to cause injuries.

www.ite.org/technical/IntersectionSafety/Pedestrians.pdf

"The fatality rate for a pedestrian hit by a car at 20 mph is 5 percent."

[Flex33]

While this event was not in response to a TCAS TA or RA as commercial pilots we receive a considerable amount of training in collision avoidance. The focus is in the vertical. Primarily because TCAS doesn't , as yet, coordinate turning manuevers.

It is also worthy of note that the turning radius while in the cruise phase is measured in nautical miles.

Hopefully, that will give some explanation as to why we dont simply break right.

[captplaystation]

Island-Flyer,

I had the same thing happen to me in the hold @ LHR (Pre-TCAS days too) but involving two landing lights of separate aircraft.
We weren't fatigued, but we were indeed a whole lot more awake afterwards.
Although it was merely an optical illusion, it was a wholly convincing one, & very alarming at the time. :eek:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Here's a true tale. When I worked a abroad a biz jet with a British crew was flying at high level eastbound one evening above a layer of CS. A fairly scared voice announced that they had a UFO in sight! My supervisor, an ex-Canberra Nav, reached for the nautical almanac and checked the times for the moon... Yes, they'd seen just the top arc above the cirrus!!

[170to5]

PTR 175

As Flex33 said, while the rules of the air are the same, I think two things should be considered:

1) As with Flex's post, all TCAS avoidance manoeuvres are in the vertical plane, therefore it would not be difficult for it to become counter intuitive to bank in order to avoid traffic (although I would like to think that I would, irrelevant of the axis, always take the most appropriate avoidance action in a situation, you never know). Rules of the air are one thing but it IS hard to revert to type, especially if this poor (and embarassed) guy has spent at least the last 14 years climbing and descending in the sim to avoid traffic during TCAS training!

2) I think there is an element of sleep stupor here. Especially if you wake up, see Venus in front of you and are told that there's closing traffic. Not difficult to suffer from a bit of confirmation bias and see nothing but this enormously bright light straight ahead of you! It may become difficult, in this situation, to analyze the situation properly and apply any proper the rules of the air, or indeed training and revert to human survival technique number one - duck!

Chatting to my skipper last night he mentioned that a similar illusion had happened to one of our crews over the North Atlantic some years ago. I must say that I can imagine it's easier than people might think to do this.

There but for the grace of God fellas...

[punkalouver]

My concern is that the pilot in charge did not obey the rules of the air. In that he chose to push the controls forward instead of instigating a right turn as laid down in the rules of the air. Unless airline pilots have different rules to us private pilots.



You are joking...right? Very funny, if you are.

[Basil]

Hope he doesn't wake up at cruise altitude to see a head-on aircraft climbing through his level :E

[NVpilot]

Isn't it more likely to be Sirius - the brightest star in the sky - which often seems to be changing colour as it rises in the East and is therefore more easily confused with an aircraft? Are you Sirius? Obviously you don't fly for a living.

[ATC Watcher]

Time for a break :
Many moons ago when Crossair was still putting normal fuel loads in its Saabs2000, and the USAF were flying non stop to Ramstein with their C5s galaxies to prepare the first invasion of Iraq, I had one a Saab cruising at FL280 and an inbound C5 stopped at 290 waiting for lower, the tracks were exactly opposite , night time, little to do so I pass on naively traffic info on both. Apparently the C5 guy waited until the last moment to put all the landing lights on. All I heard was " :mad: " and saw the mode C of the Saab going down 300ft . The next comment from the Saab was : " This is like Star wars ! "
Not sure how the pax behind appreciated, never heard anything back .

End of the historical minute.

[jackharr]

I never ceased to be amazed how little aircrew knew about the night sky, eg that objects rise in the east (north east, east, southeast, etc) and set in the west – just like the sun. I use to bore the pants off my first officers explaining such things as why the earliest sunset doesn’t coincide with the shortest day, etc.

But one incident really took the biscuit. It was a beautiful clear morning as I drove in to work before dawn. There was a splendid full moon (but with a difference – read on). I overheard several pilots in the crew room making comments about the peculiar red moon and wondered why it was like that. Then a delightful trolley-dolly came up to me and said: “Lovely total eclipse this morning wasn’t it Jack?”

[Mr Angry from Purley]

So the AC FTL scheme requires 2 Pilots to fly over night Eastbound and 3 Pilots back during the daytime due to the longer scheduled block time.
Where does common sense come into it?:\

[tbaylx]

Common sense hasn't applied to the canadian duty regulations for many many years. They don't differentiate between time of day that the duty period starts, or the number of sectors. Common for 14-17 hour days with 6 sectors over here, and 1200 hours/year.

Hopefully now that the americans have sorted out their rest rules canada will be shamed into following with a bit of pressure from ALPA, before a serious accident occurs.

[Landflap]

FO told me that he managed to really annoy the Capt by continuously flashing his lights at Venus. Capt kept telling him that it was NOT an aircraft but the planet Venus.FO kept flashing. Capt got a bit air-raged and again gave him a long lecture about Venus, rising star, changing colours etc. FO tells me................." three minutes later, Venus passed below us" !

[grimmrad]

SLF speaking here - interesting point in the report: "Before he had children, the FO's normally slept 8 hours per night. After having children, the FO normally slept approximately 6 to 7 hours per night, between 2300 and 0600, which could often be interrupted when the children required care."
As a father of two myself I remember those days - is that a hazard? Also, given a family situation where the wife maybe not feeling fully supported by the husband who is away often could there be an addition danger from those settings. Just a thought?

[FIRESYSOK]

What would you suggest, a government-appointed marriage/sleep/family monitor assigned to all pilots? Heck, throw in a video recorder in the bedroom to ensure every pilot isn't up to bedroom shenanigans before duty.

The report goes much too far in its effort to reveal what is purely a subjective assessment of a person's biology. Professionals of all varieties have family responsibilities as well as professional. Deal with it.

[Notso Fantastic]

It's easy to do! I have taken avoiding action of Venus several times in the early hours fly east across the Atlantic. It rises fairly quickly, but if it has been obscured by thin cloud, when it appears, it brightens very rapidly where a short time before there was absolutely nothing. With it rapidly brightening, it gives the impression it's a landing light approaching incredibly quickly. It's very easy to be fooled into taking avoiding action by a startled, tired pilot, and yes I have done it several times!

[Loose rivets]

Technically, there may be absolutely nothing wrong with the young pilot.

Twice, maybe three times in my life, I have experienced a strange experience upon waking - almost like sensing another reality for a second or two. It was fascinating.

I mentioned this to my appropriately qualified son, who said there was quite a lot of research carried out on those few moments between sleep and being fully awake.

This is almost certainly because of that momentary window into another mode of brain function is so out of the ordinary.

The pilot had seemingly enjoyed a long sleep. Perhaps tiredness caused it to be a very deep sleep. Such a shame if this ruins his career, when the effort should be towards making the aircraft safe from such sudden and unwanted inputs.

[grimmrad]

@Firesysok: I don't know why you are so hostile. I deal with it - I am a father and have a family so I can relate and understand that problem very well. I only wanted to inquire if people see that as a problem in their job. My wife knew when I had an early clinical duty (physician) next day she would leave me alone and take care of the kids at night if possible/needed so that I could be well rested for the next morning.
Whom would you rather have doing your brain surgery at 7:30 am: the well rested guy or the guy who woke up three times at night to take care for the crying baby...?

[Dan Dare]

...and you are all being watched over by an ATCO, who management think can just switch on or off on command, then be alert at 5 am fueled by nothing more than adrenaline...

[Solar]

With regard to the waking up aspect I once was told that in the army the only time you could clobber a senior NCO/officer with being charged was in the minute or so after having been awoken by said NCO/officer. Don't know anybody who did it though.

[ZOOKER]

Had the pleasure of giving 'traffic information' on Venus several times.
At the airport where I worked, we were fairly 'customer-focussed', (long before the phrase became common management parlance), and would play "both ends against the middle" whenever safety and the traffic situation/met allowed.
Remember one evening Venus was lined up precisely with the reciprocal of the declared R/W in use. Chap in a Hurn-built twin-jet, (adorned with a tri-angular, fast-moving, bird-like logo), who had just established after a long base-leg from BPK, says "and what's the range of the traffic on 06?'.
"About 62,000,000 miles", was the reply.
"Ah, Roger" was the acknowledgement.
Venus has been visible through our kitchen window recently, which looks towards Mt. Belzoni International. And it does look like a departing aircraft.
Safe flying.....:ok:

[dozing4dollars]

Could we get everyone to post there country and company duty time limits?

I am guessing Canada is at the bottom of the list, unless you are management.

[Max Angle]

Could we get everyone to post there country and company duty time limits?Pointless, even the most conservative limits lead to tiredness and chronic fatigue if used to the maximum.

[Check Airman]

I don't see why we're hanging the FO. He wakes up and sees an "airplane"heading right towards him, and out of the corner of his eye, sees that the Captain is not responding. In a fraction of a second, his mind goes through several possibilities- TCAS failure being one of them.

A split second later, he reverts to basic airmanship- see and avoid. We are always very quick to pass judgment on those who are dependent on automation and rule books to fly at the expense of airmanship and common sense.

What would we be saying about him if it had indeed been an aircraft? I'd rather fly with this guy who is ready to revert to basic airmanship at a moment's notice than somebody who would just watch an airplane get closer and wonder why the TCAS hasn't said anything.

[wheelie my boeing]

Whilst it may not be relevant in this instance, those who criticize quickly shouldn't forget that TCAS is not a requirement for commercial aircraft. Everyday commercial flights depart with TCAS inoperative. So if you do happen to see a light that appears to be coming towards you quickly (TCAS warning or not), you can't assume that TCAS will always protect you as the aircraft headed towards you may not actually have it working...

[flox]

TCAS is mandatory for commercial a/c but MAY BE inoperative (MEL), usually for 3-5 days. On the other hand, xponder with mode C is mandatory, as many ATCs don't have indication of primary radar return.
A/c with TCAS inop but working xponder with C mode will be seen by a/c with TCAS and even TA/RA will be issued but only to them.
Even a/c with xponder without C mode are seen by TCAS but without altitude info.

Years ago, flying late in dark,desolated, mountainous area, we tried to outclimb Venus mistaking it for the light on top of the mountain.

[Capn Bloggs]

you can't assume that TCAS will always protect you as the aircraft headed towards you may not actually have it working...
Correct eg Embraer/737 over Brazil.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

climbing out of Luton, turned and broke out of cloud, to level out on SID.

There directly ahead was a powerful landing light, one of many, but the biggest and closest......

Concentrates the mind.

Tonight is FULL moon, so beware... It looked fantastic last night enroute to Paris.

[ve3id]

CBC is reporting

Air Canada sued for $20M over jet plunge - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/05/07/air-canada-class-action.html)

that a Toronto law firm has started a 20 million lawsuit over the incident. Hand in your licences, guys, and train to become a lawyer!

[Loose rivets]

Lawyer Darcy Merkur of the firm Thomson, Rogers, which filed the claim, says the passengers who have come forward "feel completely manipulated, completely lied to and they are pissed off;


Glad to see young folk that do lawyering still maintain an element of sauvé. :rolleyes:

[lomapaseo]

Lawyer Darcy Merkur of the firm Thomson, Rogers, which filed the claim, says the passengers who have come forward "feel completely manipulated, completely lied to and they are pissed off;

Sounds like a typical passenger after a flight burble, but is it actionable.

[Al Zimer]

It's not only pilots that have problems. The following is from "Australia in the War of 1939 - 1945", Series Two, Navy, Vol II, RAN 1942 - 1945, p.581 -

In this encounter history repeated itself when an innocent watcher came under ineffective fire from the Allied ships. In the first volume of this work it was recorded that during an air attack on the Mediterranean Fleet in the preliminary stages of the Battle of Calabria, "the height of the attacking aircraft, and their appearance as glittering specks, led the 7th Cruiser Squadron to open fire during the afternoon on the planet Venus. It was an indignity the Goddess of Love, in her day-time manifestation in the sky, was often to undergo during the Mediterranean campaign." She was to undergo it in the South-West Pacific also. On this afternoon of air attacks on TG .77.2 on 4th January 1945, Midshipman Francis in Shropshire recorded in his diary: "The planet Venus was taken for a high flying aircraft, and, with other ships, Shropshire wasted many rounds of ammunition in this direction."

[Rollingthunder]

Good gunnery practice. Range not so good.

[Sober Lark]

Get ready for the transit of Venus | DESKARATI – AN ECLECTIC MIX OF SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, HISTORY AND THE ARTS (http://deskarati.com/2012/05/25/get-ready-for-the-transit-of-venus/)

[mickjoebill]

This jet went pretty close flying near Cleveland


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAR3Tx31BYQ


Mickjoebill