Flaps/Slats locked. 320 question.

[WhySoTough]

Hi,

Firstly I apologize for making another thread, but this is quiet a confusing failure for me still. I haven't been demonstrated it yet, but would like to fully understand it before I do get demonstrated.

If flaps fail to retract after TO, speed select, ask for ECAM actions.
You would definitely want to come back to land, correct?
Will configuring for landing mean flaps would NOT extend either, or it could be that they extend maybe, but just not retract?

Second scenario,

Flaps fail while you're in approach and have no time to calculate distance etc etc. go around if you weren't ready for this and retract flaps normally?
When doing an approach with flaps or slats locked, you will use conf 3, select Vfe next -5, and keep configuring.
Why exactly do we do this? Once activating approach phase, the speed decelerates below Vfe anyway..
Apply landing distance. Am I missing something else?

If BOTH slats and flaps locked after you select flaps 1, there is no need to select flaps 2, or anything at all now, correct? As it won't do anything..

I do apologize for the silly questions, but I'm a newbie just learning now.
Thank you in advance.

[de facto]

Firstly I apologize for making another thread, but this is quiet a confusing failure for me still. I haven't been demonstrated it yet, but would like to fully understand it before I do get demonstrated.

Now this attitude will get you far in the right direction:ok:

I will try to answer your question in a general point of view as I am rated on B737 not Airbus.
If flaps fail to retract after TO, speed select, ask for ECAM actions.
You would definitely want to come back to land, correct?
Correct,if your flaps can not be retracted following your ecam actions,you would return to your take off airport.
Most probably some sensors in your flaps detected a malfunction during the retraction command.
Will configuring for landing mean flaps would NOT extend either, or it could be that they extend maybe, but just not retract?

Flaps are retracted using electrical commands to use hydraulic fluid to move torque tubes which in turn move the flaps in my aircraft,most probably the same for your airbus.
Depending of the failure the flaps may be locked for good or not.
If no assymetry,your aircraft most probably has an independant electrical motor to move those flaps down and up again.there may be limitation on your landing flaps (degree used) to reduce crew workload in case of a go around.your checklist will let you know.
Flaps fail while you're in approach and have no time to calculate distance etc etc. go around if you weren't ready for this and retract flaps normally?
Yes a very safe idea.But yor captain should have a basic idea of his landing distance based on different flaps setting and auto brake setting,and a common knowledge of the Qrh content of standard possible failures.
A flaps assymetry will not allow you to retract your flaps at all during the go around so you will have to limit your speed during go around as well as possible maneuvring issues.thrust available from both your engines should allow you to achieve most necessary climb gradients.
If BOTH slats and flaps locked after you select flaps 1, there is no need to select flaps 2, or anything at all now, correct? As it won't do anything..
it will most probably do nothing,however on 737,if assymetry occurs or sqew,the flap LEVER will be placed to the smallest detent to guide the crew in selecting the proper speed addition during the non normal checklist as the flaps will be locked at the failed position for the rest of the flight.

Always follow your trained procedures,never rush,always confirm your actions and at the end have a look at what was achieved to confirm your new aircraft status.
Then you will be able to continue the flight with a positive outcome.:ok:

[BlackandBrown]

Correct,if your flaps can not be retracted following your ecam actions,you would return to your take off airport.

Hang on a moment, preparation is important for this on the Airbus. Handle it, discuss it, decide - and thats generic. Your landing performance maybe extremely limited especially if ou flaps are jammed at conf 1. We use DODAR. Beyond that consider a WOLF check for landing:

W- weight
O- operational factors at airfield: RFFL, weather, navaids, surrounding terrain etc.
L- landing dist available
F- Fuel (not such a factor for a return - possibly) - use the fuel penalty pages of QRH for divert too.

[de facto]

Your landing performance maybe extremely limited especially if ou flaps are jammed at conf 1. We use DODAR. Beyond that consider a WOLF check for landing:
Yes of course, i had in mind the issue the problem of the flaps being able to be extended again not locked for good following a partial loss of hydraulics.On boeing 737 a flaps 15 would be made,for wich the landing distance increase is minimal.
However if they are locked for good,ie assymetryyes,after ecam you must consider your take off field weather,iperformance for the landing distance,auto brake setting versus runway lengh for brake cooling,is an alternate airport available,fuel/distance....
However if a decision to divert to another airport for a longer runway i would assume should be taken with a pinch of salt as there is no info available of your fuel burn with flaps extended.
A flaps up landing on my aircraft can be achieved with max braking in about 1500 meters,so with auto brake 3 around 3000 meters.

[PENKO]

Okay, this is where PPRuNe starts to confuse people. Regarding the retracting of flaps, your QRH might say the following:

FOR GO AROUND IF SLATS FAULT:
 FOR CIRCUIT:
MAINTAIN SLATS/FLAPS CONFIGURATION Recommended speed: MAX SPEED -10 kt
 FOR DIVERSION
SELECT CLEAN CONFIGURATION
Recommended flaps retraction speed: between MAX SPEED -10 kt and MAX SPEED.
Recommended diversion speed: MAX SPEED -10 kt.
 IF FLAPS FAULT:  FOR CIRCUIT:
MAINTAIN SLATS/FLAPS CONFIGURATION Recommended speed: MAX SPEED -10 kt FOR DIVERSION:
 If FLAPS jammed at 0
SELECT CLEAN CONFIGURATION
Note: Recommended speed for slats retraction is between MAX SPEED -10 kt and MAX SPEED of actual slat/flap position.


So do not just start retracting flaps or slats, mind the speed limits!
Take it all one step at a time. Read your QRH.

[de facto]

 If FLAPS jammed at 0
SELECT CLEAN CONFIGURATION
I think the question he asked if flaps were to be jammed to more than 0 after take off.
What does your QRH say?

Boeing systems allow flaps retraction/extention using an electical motor following loss of hydraulics.
The loss of hydraulics could be the failure that causes his flaps to remain down after take off.

However if the flaps are 'jammed',ie were locked into their position due to assymetry,no retraction or extension is possible in boeing aircraft.

[PENKO]

It says it right there. Start reading from the top. flaps/slats fault: maintain config on go around if you stay in the circuit, otherwise retract following the caveats.

He flies Airbus 320's, so why mix in Boeing stuff?

[Natstrackalpha]

I think de facto was only trying to help and with some good advice, there is no need to bite a chunk off just because he operates a B737, he sounds like a good Captain to me.

The SFCCs have one slat and one flap channel each. If the SFCC is caput, then the slats and flaps will extend or retract at half speed.
If one HYD inoperative, say, then the corresponding surfaces operate at half speed.
If you get an ECAM saying SLATS (F) LOCKED that will indicate that the WTB has caused the stoppage which is a mechanical failure.
If you get an ECAM saying SLATS (F) FAULT then this will mean you have got an SFCC failure which is a computer failure.
Any overspeed aural Warning and VLS will be for the actual flap/slat
configuration.
VFE and VFE Next correspond to the flap lever position.
If you are lucky enough to get a double SFCC failure then you have not got AP, FD or AT, nor have you got any characteristic speeds, which means no VLS so, simply use the QRH Op Data. As mentioned by de-facto (above) use Selected Speed.
then proceed with your initial ECAM actions. folow the ECAM.

When you then get your info (latest from the status) then you will be able to set the aircraft up for the landing (which is the whole point of following the status procedure) If you have a slat OR a flap failure, then you select Flap 3.
If you have slat and aflap failure, then flap lever to Flap 1 to enable G/A
mode, but you select FULL on the Perf Approach page.


If you have a Slats Fault then you are in Alternate Law which will change to Direct Law when you put the gear down. Do your ECAM actions then do the QRH, which, will give you your Appr speeds and and Landing Distance Corrections.

On theApproach Do the QRH drill: Landing with Slats orFlaps Jammed. But, to land without Slats and Flaps use the QRH Flight Pattern.
The PM will use the QRH to guide the PF through the approach. Selected Speed.

Use AP and AT if you`ve got them but A/P off by 500 feet and disconnect A/T by 500 feet if its a slat andflap failure. On finals you will find the the attitude is unusual so when you get visual don`t be tempted to change the pitch attitude but monitor the flight director. If you want to Go-Around then, for failures other than dual hydraulic, Gear Up, but maintain flap/slat configuration. For an SFCC double channel fault (Flap or Slat), remember that you will have no A/P, no FD and no A/T. Ok?

[TyroPicard]

WsT
Hope these answers help - I have tried to write them as if we are in the briefing room before a sim session.....

If flaps fail to retract after TO, speed select, ask for ECAM actions.
You would definitely want to come back to land, correct?Correct - but if your main engineering base was really close you could go there instead. There may be other factors such as LOVIS which would stop you returning to the departure airport.

Will configuring for landing mean flaps would NOT extend either, or it could be that they extend maybe, but just not retract?If ECAM says FLAPS LOCKED (or SLATS LOCKED) then they will not move until the engineers fix them on the ground.

Second scenario,
Flaps fail while you're in approach and have no time to calculate distance etc etc. go around if you weren't ready for this and retract flaps normally?Yes, go-around in selected speed at a safe speed for the CONF but do not move the FLAPS lever ... because the Flaps are locked. At a safe height perform ECAM actions, and eventually check landing distance and do approach preparation referring to STATUS and QRH.

When doing an approach with flaps or slats locked, you will use conf 3, select Vfe next -5, and keep configuring.
Why exactly do we do this?CONF 3 because 1. the QRH says so... 2. CONF FULL might give control problems with abnormal config. We use VFE next -5 so that we are always flying at a safe speed for the abnormal Flap/Slat config.

Once activating approach phase, the speed decelerates below Vfe anyway..NO ! We are in selected speed.......

If BOTH slats and flaps locked after you select flaps 1, there is no need to select flaps 2, or anything at all now, correct? As it won't do anything..There is a specific ECAM for "SLATS and FLAPS FAULT in CONF ZERO" which instructs you to use FLAPS 1 lever position for landing - this means that G/A mode is available if you select TOGA.

I do apologize for the silly questionsThere is no such thing as a silly question when you are trying to learn - keep on asking!

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi TyroPicard,
NO ! We are in selected speed.......
I agree that we use selected speed to decelerate to VFE next-5.

However, once in the landing config, and with the appropriate VAPP inserted into the MCDU, why can't we use managed speed to take advantage of ground speed mini protection?

[Natstrackalpha]

However, once in the landing config, and with the appropriate VAPP inserted into the MCDU, why can't we use managed speed to take advantage of ground speed mini protection? You won`t have VLS though - if its a double SFCC failure.

As PENKO said So do not just start retracting flaps or slats, mind the speed limits!
Take it all one step at a time. Read your QRH.

[aristoclis]

"Why exactly do we do this? Once activating approach phase, the speed decelerates below Vfe anyway.."



Because once you have activated the approach phase in managed speed, speed target would drop to O, then S, then F etc. iaw flaps lever position. But these speeds most probably do not correspond to your actual configuration so you must disregard them (if present anyway). So selected speed VFE-5 will allow you to maintain a higher speed to fly safely and allows you to continue your configuration.

PS: VFE is also iaw to lever position, so in certain cases Vmax would be in the red sector.

@Rudderrudderrat: I guess anything "managed" could be unreliable due to inconsistency with the actual configuration. And yes vls and O,S,F consequently vapp are absent in certain failures.

[WhySoTough]

Thank you ALL very much for the kind and helpful responses.
I definitely understand the concept now.
Silly me asking why we use Vfe next since approach phase is activated.
Obviously, we are using selected speed:}

Thank you all! :)

[aristoclis]

However, once in the landing config, and with the appropriate VAPP inserted into the MCDU, why can't we use managed speed to take advantage of ground speed mini protection?


Hello Rudderrudderrat,

I 'll try to make a better approach to your question since I wondered about this myself.

DSC-22_30-90 P 10/14

GROUND SPEED MINI FUNCTION PRINCIPLE
...
The lowest speed target is limited to VAPP and its upper limit is VFE of next configuration in CONF 1, 2, 3 and VFE-5 in CONF FULL.
...
Vapp would be fine as a low limit but the upper limit (since VFE and VFEnext are iaw lever position) would be inconsistent. So you would have a partially functioning Ground Speed mini (in certain failure cases the upper limit would "touch" the max speed i.e. 177kt ).

[320p]

hello,
On this topic,I have two question regarding situations in which Flaps/slats do not extend normally which could also be because of dual Hyd failures or for some other reason.
- Since it is recommended to fly with selected speeds,after the final flap lever selection do we continue approach with selected Vapp or should we manage it to use GS mini?
- If it is selected Vapp then what is the significance of feeding Vapp in the Mcdu?

Thanks.

[kellykelpie]

I teach Flap 3 then manage speed - you are only in selected speed until final flap. Fly managed after that.

For landing slats and flaps at zero, I teach select Vref + 60, then at 500 feet manage speed (Vref + 50). Works a treat.

There is nothing in FCOM about not using managed speeds for landing.

[Cough]

Don't forget, after double system failures, the approach is likely to be in alternate law, with the landing in direct law.

By using GsMini for the approach, you may make life slightly more difficult for yourself as your trimmed speed will be constantly changing...Just at the point that you have lost auto trim...

Anyhow, KK, check FCTM AO-027. Selected speed MUST be used...

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Cough,
By using GsMini for the approach, you may make life slightly more difficult for yourself as your trimmed speed will be constantly changing...Just at the point that you have lost auto trim...
Then it will handle just like a Boeing.
Without the use of ground speed min - the IAS will vary during the gusts, requiring you to change the power and chase the speed.

I agree you must select speed during reconfiguration because the system would be working to the wrong speed schedule. However, once in landing config and with the appropriate VAPP inserted, what's the technical reason I can't take advantage of GS mini protection by using managed speed?

[NigelOnDraft]

However if a decision to divert to another airport for a longer runway i would assume should be taken with a pinch of salt as there is no info available of your fuel burn with flaps extended.There is plenty of info :ugh: Fuel Burn from the gauges x Time = Fuel Used. Yes, FMC thing no use, but so what?

NoD

[de facto]

There is plenty of info Fuel Burn from the gauges x Time = Fuel Used. Yes, FMC thing no use, but so what?
Ok read and go,and planning?i never said its not possible,its not a perfect solution.
Yes, FMC thing no use
Are you trying to reduce your english level for the masses to understand?:ugh:

[aristoclis]

I teach Flap 3 then manage speed - you are only in selected speed until final flap. Fly managed after that.

For landing slats and flaps at zero, I teach select Vref + 60, then at 500 feet manage speed (Vref + 50). Works a treat.

There is nothing in FCOM about not using managed speeds for landing.


Well, there is actual a recommendation, PRO-ABN-10 P 12/22 and also in the QRH:

-Approach with selected speed is recommended.

[Cough]

RR,

During a Boeing approach, you try to maintain a constant speed by changing power. You oscillate around this speed, generally your trim is constant as you return to datums after any disturbance.

During an Airbus approach with GsMini active, your datum speed can change by 40 knots. As such, your power, speed hence trim will change, requiring you to retrim during the whole approach, which is challenging when you also have to adjust power. Hence what Airbus recommends is going to Conf3, getting speed stable, allow the aircraft to sort the trim, then Gear down.

Anyhow, say this did happen and you flew an approach which had a incident. The authorities are going to look at the way you flew that approach against the SOP's, bearing in mind the FCTM quotes you MUST use selected. If you think managed is a good idea, why not put it to Airbus?

[kellykelpie]

Hi Cough,

My understanding is that you only go Flap 3 then gear down for green and yellow failure - not for all direct law landings.

Do you have a reference for that?

[320p]

Hello aristoclis,
If in these situations you recommend selected speeds,then do you feed Vapp in the MCDU?If yes, for what?
Hi kellykelpie,
While I agree with you,in that Flaps3 and gear down is mentioned in FCOM for G+Y failure only,a large number of airbus pilots tend to use this for most situations of alternate law leading to direct law.

In SIM sessions,I do find the issue of slected or managed Vapp after final configuration in case of Flaps/slats fault/locked and Flaps2/or Flaps3 and gear down varying with pilots and trainers.
Looking for some more inputs.Thanks

[aristoclis]

Hi 320p,

It is not me, it is Airbus that recommends selected speeds according to FCOM and QRH. If you then use selected speed the vapp input in the MCDU will be only a reminder (as is engine out acceleration altitude for example).

[Cough]

KK - Sorry, going back to my training, not using the manuals for that one...

[kellykelpie]

Interesting discussion - i'll check out the references give regarding use of selected speed.

Does anyone know why the max speed with Flaps locked at zero but slats at 3 is 200 knots in the table? Why isn't it 185? If you maintain max speed - 10 in the go around (i.e 190) in this config, won't you get an overspeed?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi kellykelpie,

I think you've forgotten Airbus "logic" of naming the slats position.
The slats position corresponds to the handle position - (not to their actual position). When you have the handle in pos 2, the Slats run to pos 2 - but they don't extend any more at handle position 3.

With Flaps Full, the slats extend to their 3rd position which is called >3 using Airbus logic. Simples?

Many crews get confused trying to interpret what they see on the Flaps / Slats display compared with the QRH table. I think it's the most confusing aspect of that table's interpretation. A diagram of the the Slats with the "confusing" named positions, printed on the QRH page would certainly help.

[kellykelpie]

Great, that explains it - thanks Rudderrat. But the Vfe displayed on the PFD is based on flap lever position, so won't you be flying around in the barbers pole? Do you just ignore this?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi kellykelpie,
Do you just ignore this?
Never ignore the overspeed warning - it's probably telling the truth. That's another reason for having to use selected speeds on the GA.

[aristoclis]

But the Vfe displayed on the PFD is based on flap lever position, so won't you be flying around in the barbers pole? Do you just ignore this?
Your answer:

QRH 27.01A

Note: ‐ In some cases, MAX SPEED - 10 kt may be a few knots higher than the VFE. In this situation, pilot may follow the VFE.

You "may" means you may also fly in the red area (flap lever position dependent) as long as you fly below Vmax but the overspeed audio warning is valid (iaw actual config FCTM AO-027 P1/2) and should not be ignored...

[kellykelpie]

Cool - thanks guys. Excellent info!

[TyroPicard]

kellykelpie..
200 kt. is a slat 3 limit, 185 kt is a flap 3 limit. Simplze...

[kellykelpie]

Thanks. It was more the visible limit on the PFD that I was afraid of, but Aristoclis explained it. Regards.

[Slasher]

Well, there is actual a recommendation, PRO-ABN-10 P 12/22 and also in the QRH:

-Approach with selected speed is recommended.

When I did the endorsement at AI Tooloose years ago all the
destructors belavered that it should be compulsory. They also
expected it on the Skills Test.

And its SOP in my mob too.

[Microburst2002]

The problem of the flaps and/or slats locked is landing distance.

Hence the approach at selected speed.

It is like the overweight landing procedure, where you select VLS for landing, instead of managing speed, to minimize landing distance. That seems unnecessary in long runways and/or slight overweights, but it is very important in high weight not-so-long runways. Don't forget that speed goes squared in the kinetic energy formula.

Selected speed for approach in flaps or slats locked will be VLS. If its indication is available your VAPP plus delta VREF is precisely equal the displayed VLS.

As a matter of fact, unless you lose speeds indications, all you have to do is to PULL SPEED, then select VFE next - 5 kt and when there, select next config and repeat until you have CONF 3, and then select VLS. All of that without looking at any paper or ECAM.

In the meantime PNF can do the ECAM (just one or two things) check landing distance if it is not a clearly long enough runway and you think about both options:

landing: mind tail strike possibility

go around:
1. don't change config upon pulling out, keep VAPP (VLS)
2. check your real VFE. This minus 10 kt will be your acceleration speed, or displayed VFE if less than that.
3. you will only retract surfaces in case of diversion, but never with only flaps down.

take a look at the QRH in case you miss something, then relax and make a good landing

I had flaps locked between 1 and 2, once, during a visual approach at night and the captain just flew it like I said, except no QRH, no go around preparation. He landed nicely.

[kellykelpie]

Thanks Microburst - good info.

Did a search of Airbus Docs and could find nothing about "Must" use selected speed for landing. Obviously it needs to be used for configuring though.

Nice angle on the risk of overrun if using managed speed however there is no mention if this in the FCTM risks table. I would be more worried about lack of energy than overruns given the runways that we go to.

[TyroPicard]

kellykelpie
Suggest you treat MB2002's post with caution...
The problem of the flaps and/or slats locked is landing distance.In most cases LDR will be less than 2,000m ...

As a matter of fact, unless you lose speeds indications, all you have to do is to PULL SPEED, then select VFE next - 5 kt and when there, select next config and repeat until you have CONF 3, and then select VLS. All of that without looking at any paper or ECAM.... however controllability in an abnormal config may be an issue, so please perform ECAM, then the QRH procedure as a crew, calculate the VAPP correctly, including approach correction if applicable, and fly that speed on the approach... (but not below VLS).

take a look at the QRH in case you miss somethingI had flaps locked between 1 and 2, once, during a visual approach at night and the captain just flew it like I said, except no QRH, no go around preparation. He landed nicely.Remember that the QRH is not there as a backup for Supermen, however "nice" their landings may be. Do it the professional way...

[Microburst2002]

Yes, that was not good, but in "my method" We do both ECAM and paper procedure, only we don't go around prematurely if fuel is a factor.

As I look at it, you can configure to CONF 3, in the meantime calculate VAPP, which is FMGC VAPP + ECAM's delta VREF (it should be exactly PFD's VLS), then select that speed, then go throuh the procedure for Go around possibility.

If you go below 1,000 ft without having done all this, then go around. If you have, don't forget landing clearance, landing checklist, then land. All safe and according to procedures.

[Microburst2002]

Also, the later you have it (the flaps lock) the milder the problem while the earlier you have it, the more time you have to do everything before 1,000 ft.

Fuel consumption is greatly increased when having some surfaces out. Going around, holding and shooting the approach can be a bad idea, depending on the situation, or a luxury if you have made a good tankering.