Simulator proficiency check question

[alpapboy]

My equiptment is A320, i got a fail on circle to land, not by being high or not stabilised. I got a fail by just putting/entering in the mcdu perf page the mda of the ILS instead of the circle to land minima. Nonetheless, I still levelled off at the circle to land minima, followed the procedures and timimg and stabilised even before turning final, aligned and on glide. My mistake is, my understanding for the circle to land which is breaking off from an instrument approach. Thats why ive inserted the ILS mda in the mcdu perf page. I did not violate anything, leveled off at the right altitude(circle to land altitude), timiming, stabilised and on glide. But still my instructor gave me a fail for that skill, because of just putting the ILS mda in d mcdu perf page. Instead of the circling minima to be placed in d mcdu. :ugh: a litlle petty dont u think?

Anybody had the same situation? Any refine procedure regarding the circle to land? Im getting confused. Even i placed the circle to land mimina, im in auto pilot the plane would still be breaking through that altitude. Thats why the books state to level of at the circle to land minima manually(push v/s to level off) or.... I may be wrong.:rolleyes:

[DBate]

It has been a while since I flew the A320, but the minimum to be set (at least according to our SOP) was the circling minimum, NOT the ILS minimum of the instrument approach your coming in on the circling. Same thing is done on the type I am flying right now.

Concerning your point of breaking through that altitude... that was (and still is) a big no no at our place. Therefore we never used the push to level off on the V/S button as you might descend below the circling minimum because of the system 'lagging' behind and the inertia on your flight path. Instead we selected a V/S before the level off and did that manually just using V/S. Procedure on the A320 might have changed, as I said, I haven't flown that type in years.

As for the instuctor failing you on your 'mistake'... won't comment on that. If you think that you have been mistreated or that his decision is unfair, my suggestion is to talk to your training department - of course after you have talked with the instructor (but I guess you did that already).

[alpapboy]

Dbate

Thanks so much! Though safety is not broken during my skill test. i talked to him already but i just listen and accept it. Cheers!

[Slasher]

Course this wouldnt've happened in a steam-driven machine.

Problem with any FMC box is setting the damn thing correctly
If you set the ILS min iso the CCL min you'll get the all those
blarings associated with that minimum while landing off the
circling which is an unnecessary noisy distraction.

Next time crosscheck with the PNF that the correct minima is
inserted. Sim checks include CRM unless your particular mob
insists otherwise. Did the checker get up the PNF for missing
your incorrect box entry?

[A37575]

Thanks so much! Though safety is not broken during my skill test
It is the usual automatic monkey syndrome that is so prevalent among todays airline pilots..
It doesn't matter to instructors how safely you fly the aircraft (in this case a circling approach) as long as you are heads down pressing all the automatics buttons. The days when a competent pilot flew a circling approach by hand visually by keeping his eyes OUTSIDE the cockpit, are long since gone in favour of keeping the head INSIDE the cockpit heads down monitoring the TV map and pressing the buttons. And they call that progress?:mad:

[Move On]

A3757,

I see what you mean but, it's called multi crew (one head down- one head up).

It's just different from flying a steam driven system.

Ng's and 320's are like this, take it or leave it......Also throw in the "Y" generation.

Getting back to Alapboy, (this is in the NG, hopefully this can help?)

From my understanding and our SOP, once you have been cleared for a circle to land (before the FAF,) at that point you would have the PM(FO) input the circle to land minima with preselected heading for the circle (Since you would of initially had the DA there because you are conducting the ILS), then at the FAF and runway in sight conduct the turn "press HDG SEL" and just dial away to keep in the ARC and use certain radials etc etc....You are in full automation.

Obviously you would of built the circle to land in the FMS prior?

Yeh it is VERY petty of your instructor to fail you, what a :mad:...

What happen to repositioning the sim to have another go at it and learn from it....:ugh:

[Meikleour]

Alpaboy: I think the question you have to ask yourself is this - "why am I programming the minima for a runway which I am not going to land on instead of the one which I am required to land on"?? What is the relevance of having a low ILS minima off which you cannot land (presumably due to a high tailwind)? That, to me , suggests why the checker gave you a hard time. Nothing to do with how well you flew the subsequent circle to land. Can you not see this? The clue is in the term DH ie. DECISION HEIGHT

[alpapboy]

Thanks guys,

I never looked down during the skill, before the circle to land minima, i leveled of and made the procedure flawlessly until landing. The only fault was just that, He just wanted me during the time im preparing the mcdu before the briefing, i shouldve placed in the dh portion, the circle to land minima.... A pilot technique, which i am wondering if its a part of the grading system. Because everybody has a different technique which i doubt i can predict one instructors technique. I believe grading should be done if the skill was performed within standard, which i did, there is no such procedure stating that i should place the circle to land minima. But as ive mentioned, i just accepted it to prevent any conflict.

Cheers!

[mustafagander]

Is not the minima you set supposed to be the minimum altitude to which you will descend if not visual? The system has alerts to inform you that you are approaching/at minima.

IMHO the checkie was quite correct in his view that you had not set the approach minima and hence were in error. Automation requires, no demands, proper understanding of what you are trying to achieve and how to do it. Wrong minima set = major error = do it again in my mob. That means an IP and try that bit again after a little chat in the sim.

[GlueBall]

If, as you say, you didn't bust your circling minimum and the circling profile was not compromised, then the instructor was wrong to fail your check. If your instructor wasn't a complete wimp, he could have let you repeat the maneuver if he had any doubt about your flying ability. :eek:

[sheppey]

While on the subject of circling I was informed recently by a Boeing Seattle Flight Training simulator instructor that the 737 FCTM newly recommended configuration for an all engines circling approach is to have landing flap in position at the beginning of the circling approach in order to be certain to be stabilised before final. This means staggering around the circuit at Vref +5 fully configured.

The fuel consumption in that early config would be horrendous (let alone the ramifications of an engine failure with landing flap in level flight) and makes one wonder the real hidden reason for this curious policy. For decades 737's have been conducting circling approaches in a Boeing recommended configuration that has apparently stood the test of time. Then suddenly something happens and the policy changes. Legal implications, maybe?

[jtr]

Well you have been in my opinion treated a little harsh given you didn't actually bust the minima for the approach you were conducting..... however..... the guidance for examiners where I fly (as a random example) gives a fail point on the instrument portion for "Failure to use the CORRECT DH/DA or MDA/MDH" so in that sense it was a fail of that section. I would have thought a resit would be a fair option.

[Doug E Style]

Not allowing a repeat sounds a bit harsh to me too. But if your Airbus has the latest FMS updates you'd get a call out at "Hundred above" which is very useful if you've got the circling MDA in the box and totally useless if you've got the ILS DA in. But the guy in the other seat ought to have given you a nudge about it during the approach brief.
Someone else mentioned the issue of levelling off. A good rule of thumb is to push V/S to level off at a height of 10% of your V/S. In other words, push V/S 70ft above minima if your rate of descent is 700fpm.