The Tank Will Never Replace the Horse!

[ChristopherRobin]

Ah.....the WAH-64 Apache gets rolled out at westlands in a blaze of glory and er...gets rolled back in again. Doesn't matter anyway as there may not be too many people around to fly it! You see, I want to fly it - I really do! Many ppl don't because it'll be too much time in the simulator they say (safest place to be), but me - I'd love to have a go but I probably won't because alas I am ashamed to say that as an officer, JCSC and a shiny-@rse job beckons. And not even a desk job related to aviation either - probably SO3 G4 cake and @rse in Hohne and why?

Why?

I'll tell you bloody well why! Because the AAC, despite having a revolution in equipment, are sticking to the same career profile they had 30 years ago - as proved by MCM Div's official policy - "Tank officers don't stay on Tanks forever!" Oh yeh I forgot - when our great leaders learned to fly it was a 4 month course and they only had to do day vmc.

People can't keep current now - It will be sad to see them try with the apache in service. And what fun it'll be when the OC Sqn arrives after 4 years in the MOD to be the least experienced guy in the sqn!

For you RAF chaps out there get this - for an officer to go QHI in the AAC is generally considered a career foul!

The situation is this: a new officer in the AAC is usually a graduate so he's 21 going into Sandhurst, 22 coming out, 23and a half finishing his pilots course - 24 finishing AH-64 conversion (if he's lucky) Does 1 tour, goes JCSC at 27 and is consigned to shiny-@rse city for maybe 6 years - then if he's a real flyer, they might send him back to a squadron, but only as the OC - now you fast jet boys - would you like your sqn boss leading you into battle with 3 years experience?

DAAVN - wake up and smell the coffee would you? there's a good chap!

The bottom line is this - we have a revolutionary piece of kit. Its time we had a revolution in thinking. Some officers are happy to go up the chain of command - some aren't. The NCOs are our Spec aircrew they cry and they are right - a more professional bunch of people I have yet to meet - they hold the bloody corps together - but If DAAVN want officers to fly this thing (and they do) then the officers have to be specialists as well - there is no room for the gifted amateur any longer. Not when the QHIs are coming back from america saying that there is more to forget on the apache than you've ever learned on any other aircraft.

I have a glimmer of optimism. But the ppl in command should ask themselves: "just why do we lose so many captains?"

...could it be that being a salesman in civvy street is more interesting than flying? or is it just more interesting (and better paid) than being an adjutant?

I think we should be told.

------------------
Christopher Robin

[This message has been edited by ChristopherRobin (edited 19 March 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ChristopherRobin (edited 19 March 2000).]

[PVR]

In a larger nutshell I couldn't have put it myself.

Huge, look at this, he's on our songsheet!

Now, if the people it's broadsided at were to analyise it instead of dismiss it........

[Pep Tilbud]

Hoorah and Hussar! at last somebody else that believes Daavn have their memories clouded by a rosey glow of the old days of Air Troops. If they do actually get a whiff of this coffee are they going to take a look at how they are supposedly going to man this new "tank" when at present sqn aircrew spend more time on DFS's, ground handling, A/C washes and daily serviceing of their own flying kit,whilst vainly hopeing that an aircraft might be brought on line if the Tech's finish PT, Drill and their Drugs and Alchol ITD before Naafi break which means we should be ready for a ground run in an hour!!
One regiment is facing the prospect of allowing aircrew to go deliberate uncurrent to keep a core current, those that go uncurrent then face the prospect of backfilling shortages on the groundcrew roll.
Of course the Apache looks after itself so we wont need the extra grouncrews that are supposed to be on demand!
The QHI's that have been trained on the AH64-D have had the luxury of flying it in a training enviroment, how would they cope operating it as NCO aircrew in a field regiment without the support required from the rest of the "departments" to keep it in the air doing its job! and too busy pushing it in and out of hangers to remember what it does.
When the Aircrew and aircraft are not seen as a distraction to the SSM's agenda maybe we'll end up with the professional aviation organisation that people aspired to fly for.
Who was it said "Give us the tools and we'll do the job"?


[This message has been edited by Pep Tilbud (edited 20 March 2000).]

[A/Tpr Cooper]

Dear CR there isn't alot that could follow that. I do however feel for the junior officer's who will be made to succeed in the role of flight commander & CPG(not that sandhurst will prepare them for the job in hand). The young Capt's will (if arrogance doesn't get in the way) learn from the SNCO pilots.
The thing is that if the Army can't make the Apache work(the REME & RLC have alot to do in this),then it is "good night" for the AAC and purple will be the colour of our hats.
WWD!

[This message has been edited by A/Tpr Cooper (edited 23 March 2000).]

[Bush Cat]

Well done that man/woman!

A good subject choice for ripping into.

Also a fine way to start the next financial year off for the money spinners in JHC; maybe they will amend where this AAC budget is going. Bhaa!

This is going to get HOT. I shall be back later once I have typed up some statements on Word (before pasting them over).
"All this free time to write comments ...current are we?"
:mad: Not a chance of that on this 'Airfield'.

[This message has been edited by Bush Cat (edited 20 March 2000).]
where is the spell checker...

[This message has been edited by Bush Cat (edited 20 March 2000).]

[2's forward 1's back]

Christopher Robin, you of all people should know what those about you would do to you if they twig to your AKA. The fact is mate you are 100% correct.

The revolution in technology that you speak of today is comparable to a revolution that took place a few years ago, at about the same time as the tank was new on the street. Remember when kites were made from linen and string and the pilots were known as the twenty minuters.
The Lords and masters who had a vision about the potential of air power decided that they would only be allowed grow outside the confines of the Army.

Ask yourself this question. If the General’s of that era wouldn’t accept the Tank as a replacement for the horse, what chance had the Bi-plane got?
Remember these people still believed that warfare would once again be like the charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava.
The RAF was formed before the end of the war; the RFC didn’t have enough believers or enough clout.

Does this sound familiar?

Have we come full circle?

Life is full of choices, do I turn left or right off the A3?

Sometimes it is less cruel to kill a comrade than see him suffer at the hands of a driller killer!

The sort of changes that you speak of will never work as long as the Army is in Air Corps. Or should I say Air Corps in the Army?
The reforms you want for the young Capt’s are the same as the NCO’s would like to see for themselves, so for once the other ranks agree with the officers. A rank structure that is as unique to the AAC as the Apache AH1.

We come back to the first problem we are all in the same Army. The rank structure has worked for hundreds of years. Tank troop commanders don’t stay on tanks forever.

Who can blame them?

Have you ever tried to change a tank track?
Tanks are bloody hard work. Flying however is not; it is fun and requires time, to enable a pilot to mature into a valuable asset. Like yourself, by the time you are ready and able to do a Flt Comds job you’ll be off to G3 @ shiny **** or back to your parent unit if you are E3. It is not your fault though!
The Army requires you to fill a slot for 3 years to pay for your training. Look at the number of people who leave and only ever pay their way, not even bothered about giving anything back. We have all seen the Cav & Inf officers come and go (glad about some of them) it is good for the young chap to gain experience in a different job. As long as that sort of mentality is in the driving seat, we stand little chance of getting the opportunity for the officer pilots to stay flying.
We have entered a new millennium with a new kite to fly, it fly’s okay, but it kills better, we need to keep the experience where it is needed, ON THE STICKS! That is to say if we want to become more than a flying club.
In my office today, the talk was, who is Christopher Robin?
Long may it stay that way!
WWD, good book!


[This message has been edited by 2's forward 1's back (edited 20 March 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 2's forward 1's back (edited 20 March 2000).]

[Bush Cat]

At the moment many of us in the Sqn are going uncurrent. 'Not the Lynx crews again', I hear you say, but yes the Gazellies too. Due to the service wide PPPPPP of serviceability and of course - the AACs very own elastic band that seems to outstretch even the toughest of condoms. The Lynx crews gave up the Acorn's and groaning months ago. Please tell me if you don't have the same problems in your Sqns (no comments from 7 Reg or 25 Flt). What's more pathetic is that we have an exercise in a few months time in Canada, which is said to be of great importance for Army Aviation. Read between the lines; some crews will lose currency deliberately and be used to drive lorries for the Ex, experienced crews are being dragged away for TA type jobs and the main thrust for currency will be for Op tours. No change there then.

"Soldiers First" someone said. GET YOUR COAT SIR!

We definitely do not need has-beens in this new age of technology thinking that we can do double hatted jobs as pilots/engineers and of course ground crew. Think again.

Longbow Apache: Now that’s got a fine ring to it. I was fortunate enough to get my hands on the Jane's Limited Edition AH-64 Longbow CD game in the USA @ £9.99. I use the word 'game' so as to describe it to you. It is far from a game, in fact it's almost the real beast. There is a lot to learn especially for the HELARM type aviation we still do. Lets hope we get the time to master the machine.

My point - it is a very big 'cookie jar' this killing machine and it will require a dedicated work force to operate it to the full. So, should I get to operate it then I will want no other distraction for many, many years to give my best and 'fill my face'. I will want to eat, sleep (during the day as it will all be night Ops) and drink Longbow Attack. There will be no time for mundane courses that others 'think' we should do that have zero relevance to being an effective operator. You all know what those courses are. Maybe you can mention a few in you replies.

For the AAC Officers. I am sure you lied during your interviews too by saying you wanted to join the AAC to be an Officer First. When in fact anything would be said in order to get your hands on a flying machine, that is what I would call True Blue. Unless the Corps get it through the butt-plug that it needs Officers specialised as aircrew in-order-to (they will like that) Lead From The Front then we will continue to get Sqn Ocs that have been out of the aviation game since the HELARM era. And no it doesn't matter to me if I don't go on up in the ranks. There have been far too many good Officers that have gone to the other side simply because someone 'thinks' they have been flying too long and would suit a non flying job to better their carrier. What utter horse crap! How many people do you know that have their licences already and waiting for that day. A waste of good, expensive, experience.

Question time…This AH-64:
1. Where will the laser be fired, as I believe it to be far to strong for Europe?
2. Will the crews really stay current, or is that a myth?
3. Are the hangars going to changed from RAF Mk1 to Y2K standard?
4. How long will the crews expect to serve on the a/c before going off to become SQMS?
5. Why was Middle Wallop re-renovated to house the 64 at a monumental cost to the tax payers when Wattisham would have done? Is this to do with HQ DAAvn not wanting to move from South to East Anglia?


"They are an elite, men of high spirit, like submarine men too - their comradeship forged by shared hazards and the shared intoxication of manning intricate, almost invincible machines." David Irving, The Trail of the Fox: The Life of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (1977).

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif For once we have the best option, so lets get Professional about it!

[SPACEMAN SPIFF]

oops

[This message has been edited by SPACEMAN SPIFF (edited 21 March 2000).]

[siouxsie]

Bush Cat :)
I wondered if you'd forgotten your promise to post yesterday.
Glad to see that you employed your time wisely in constructing your reply.
I certainly hope that I won't be employed driving big nasty smelly trucks. It'll wreak havoc with my nails.
Seriously though a few good points. I've got to be honest if 'Wotashame', can't even sort out the accommodation for the Apaches that they are getting.{ What's wrong with using the 22?(I think)HASs. Wouldn't the MTO shift his trucks?}Why send the training organisation there. Never mind the lack of a decent LFA. How many flying compaints do you think will be generated in the first week of Apache OPs?? 1 or 2 I suspect.
No I think our Lords and Masters have got the location right on balance. As long as we get a decent slab of concrete!

[MightyGem]

Lots of good stuff here. Christopher, I wouldn't fancy your confidential when someone twigs who you are.
Bush Cat's 4th point is very relevant. We all now the 64 is a quantum leap and it's going to take a long time not just to learn it, but to become competant with it. To that end, the Corps is going to have to change it's posting policy and keep people on it for a long time. When I left the Army my last Sqn had 23 out of 24 aircrew NVG Cat3. When I paid a visit some 18 months later, they had half a dozen comds, 3 or 4 pilots and a few crewman(most of who were uncurrent) with about 3 people Cat 3. I could have cried. That just cannot be allowed to happen with the 64. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Swine Disease]

The first step to resolving some of the problems highlighted is those in charge listen to what people are saying and give us SPEC AIRCREW!! :)

[BEagle]

At the risk of speaking heresy, they could, of course, issue the AH64 to an organisation which already has Spec. Aircrew!!

[Swine Disease]

Spec Aircrew you have but I feel that at the moment the intimate knowledge of how us mud sluggers work is the restricting factor in giving it to you fine chaps in blue.

My feeling is that you guys should stick to what you do best and fly things that go V Fast J, and the big stuff to do the other bits.

I feel all helicopters (AH and SH) should be given to the Army (or a joint helicopter force not just command).

I find it ludicrous that 16 Air Assault Brigade is primarily an Army organisation with a job of moving troops with AH support but does not have the integral lift capacity to carry out this task. We have to come to you guys to lift men and material in any respectable quantity. This I feel is a recipe for disaster our operating practices are too far apart. This was highlighted on a recent Ex on Salisbury Plain where the SH fleet were working to a different set of rules than we were.

This is not intended to offend any SH guys out there but our working practices are a long way apart.

I do feel we have a lot to learn from the way you Blue boys operate but also vice versa for the SH guys. They need to look at the way we operate especially close to the front.

Communication between both forces at Sqn/Regt level is required to make sure we are playing by the same rules.

As for a joint Helicopter force well In my humble opinion the soon the better, it would lead to a much more efficient fighting and peace time machineJ

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Out of interest, and agreeing with most of your points, which operating practices are that different that they cause REAL problems.

[Pep Tilbud]

To HPT the operating practices affect during peacetime excercises more than on op's, as hopefully you'll know, having worked along side you and yours on op's .The example of the Ex on Salisbury Plain being used, to the SH crews that turned up it was a task with a PUP and a DOP and a return time, Which allowed for no Tactical scenario and therefore the SH being taken out on the first drop off!
Not that it mattered to them as it wasn't their Ex and they'd be back in Odiham for lunch,win or lose.
P.S. Glad to see you check your E-Mail!!

[This message has been edited by Pep Tilbud (edited 22 March 2000).]

[Swine Disease]

HPT,

One of the main differences is that you guys work out your crew duty time in a different way to us. This makes it very difficult for a force commander to co-ordinate his lift capacity.

Others include the way that you guys have conducted yourselves on various Ex’s comments along the lines of “ we will do it our way you do it yours.” Which leads to again a lack of co-ordination between services.

I have many examples but I am not here to get into a “we are better than you” type argument all I am trying to say is that life is very difficult for commander 16 Bde when he is reliant on two services for hi helicopter support.

[sparecrew]

Swine Disease - you surely don't want MCM Glasgow to be given the opportunity of screwing up the manning in the SH force as badly as it has the AAC! Moreover there are significant numbers of Blue Jobs who are intimately aware of what the brownjobs do on the battlefield so that is not much of an argument against RAF AH. Just look at the EW knowledge and training an SH pilot has compared to an AAC bloke and you might begin to understand that just hiding behind trees until the baddies have gone is not the way of the real battlefield any more!

[Bush Cat]

sparecrew

You have just highlighted a very servere point that us 'brownjobs' have still to get over.

Having been fortunate enough to share in those courses at Cranwell with you, I now begin to wonder if this beast should really have gone to the RAF, and left us, the AAC with the job of shifting the boys around.

We as potential Longbow aircrew are so far behind the drag curve with the introduction of this thing, that they will probably blame us for not being able to cope with the change i.e. from plodding around LFA 10 at 200'and pretending there are En out there.

We should, as a Corps, start the process NOW. Things such as, simple manuals to read , videos on the tech/layout/terminology of the machine, talks/lectures from those 'top-gun' AAC pilots that have had the chance to fly it, etc. Something that will prepare us for that 'smack in the face' in a year or two. I look around the crew room and wonder, how many of these other guys/girls will be able to cope with that SMACK!

Are we realy prepared? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[SPACEMAN SPIFF]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
Sounds very much like a job for SPEC AIRCREW. Or is that one of those abbreviations such as Reg, toilet,etc. that was banned from being used?

[Reg C Elley]

Oy, SS, Yes You...
What's the problem with Reg??? :)
Pig Sick, you like many people who don't really understand them blame issues like crew-duty for limiting SH involvement / participation. This simply isn't true. In fact SH crews can fly more hours in the day than we can. They do however provide more formalised guidance by means of CDT, than we use. The real crux is that they simply don't understand how to integrate into the forward battle space, not their fault, they've never been required to before, hence never learnt.
As to the cock-up on the recent Ex on SPTA, had SH been properly briefed as to exactly what was required, the Tac scenario and all that goes with it. Any bets??
HPT, I agree with you , even if you are a crab :) I don't think there are any fundamental problems. Additionally, I think that JHC is the best thing that's ever happened to all three services, and as we approach the 6 month point I continue to be amazed at how well it all seems to be going. I hear that the harmonisation of the NVG rules has been sorted and is soon to be introduced. No mean feat.
Sparecrew, I don't think that MCM could srew things up worse than Innsworth, as many other threads have testified in this forum, they're all as bad as each other, a uniform abysmally low standard. I do think you're simplifying the operations in the forward area though. Yes SH crews are better versed in matters appertaining to EW, but to be fair they've had the kit for longer and they had the ability to call upon FJ knowledge and experience.
Bush Cat, the reason the Top Guns aren't talking to you is they are working pretty hard sorting out the 1,000,000 and 1 things that need to be addressed before the beast arrives. If you really feel the need to have the knowledge, ask. If you don't know who to ask, your boss should, and keep on asking until you get the answers you want. There's a lot of knowledge around about this particular quantum leap.
Nuff said :)

[Swine Disease]

Sparecrew,

As I alluded to there are many things that we can learn from you guys.

EW is one of them (probably the major one), it is something that we are only just starting to worry about in any real form.

My life just does not consist of hiding behind trees and waiting for the baddies to go away. The ARP even with its limited equipment capabilities is an influential asset to the force commander if the crews are up to speed in what is required. If the ARP can integrate itself into the force commanders plan (working with Recce, Milan and the likes). Also it is a major player in the control of direct and indirect fire assets. This is what we do best (although not as well as we could….read Soldiers first posted yesterday). The details are quite a lot more than just hiding behind trees. The modern battlefield is not an easy place to work anymore due to its fluidity, what I was trying to say was that greater co-ordination between all concerned is required.

Bush Cat

You are right with what you say about us being behind the drag curve in respect to the AH. We at Sqn level should have started being given stuff to get our teeth into quite a while back. You are right it is going to be a major smack in the face.

Reg

I do understand them I was not saying that our crew duty time is the right one. What I was saying is that it is Barking that we have different rules.

Ref Ex on SPTA yes the SH were fully briefed but chose to do it their way L

I agree JHC is a major step in the right direction long may it continue J

As for having to ask for info on AH crap……..This information should be made readily available so that we can be best prepared for the imminent SMACK in the face. It is the AAC through and through the passage of information on many subjects is garbage unless it is things like IIP or health and safety. We have to fight to get info, and if people have info and want to present it they can’t because there is no IT equip to use. We are but playing at the moment and attitudes must change fast. One way is to supply the info so those who are interested in AH (more than will admit) can start the process from within of preparing for the wee beasties to arrive.

[Davey Emsey]

To all who suggest the Army should have Spec Aircrew.

We have them, its just that we call them SNCO's and they don't necessarily have a job until 55.

[SPACEMAN SPIFF]

Well then....Did you think, or just write without thinking.

So will our future leaders of the AH era have to be LEs then??? Best we start commisioning all the 'fullscrews' to ensure we have a decent lot of thinking Officers. And there I was thinking that they earned all that money!!

As for their jobs after 55, well...was that a stab or a loke? Funny either way.

[Davey Emsey]

Spaceman

Is that in response to my post? Cos I don't understand.

[ChristopherRobin]

Davey Emsey - as they say in France .... L'idiot!

what Spaceman is saying is - do you want the man or woman that is leading you into battle to be one of the most inexperienced people in the Sqn as he's spent the last few years serving tea to a faceless bureaucrat in MOD Main Building?

.....but I digress... thank you all for your replies on what I feel is one of the most serious issues facing the AAC in the near future, i.e. how are we going to shape the leaders of the future. Like it or not we will be commanded by officers - many SNCOs could do a better job in many circumstances and will do so I have no doubt, but the fact remains that a lot of patrol leaders will be young officers in their first tour, or officers who have been honing their pen-pushing skills in a job unrelated in any way to flying through no fault of their own.

This needs to change.

We haven't fought a major war in many many years, and those we have fought have mainly consisted of us helping the yanks to severely kick the @rse of a totally inferior opponent.

Success in battle is a cr@p teacher.

Now what happens when China decides to annex Taiwan and in we go with Uncle Sam?

I'll tell you what - we get a fair few WAH-64s blown out of the sky is what.

Make no mistake - AH will be the spearhead, the scalpel, the vanguard, the pre-emptive strike - do we want to be led by someone who does this in between staff jobs?

I don't expect things to change overnight, but why for christ's sake are we sending them off to totally unrelated jobs like SO2G1/G4? We need Specialist NCO's led by Specialist Officers.

Nuff said on that one.

Jointery - nice idea but it HASN'T GONE FAR ENOUGH!

My colleagues in NI (where the JHF is alive and, er, well...) inform me that at coalface level it works fine - AAC and RAF, we fly, we get the job done in our own little ways, generally no prob.

The problem is once again in command - The RAF Sqn Comds are Wing Commanders (Lt Col). The AAC Sqn OCs are Majors. Bugger. slight problem there. The infighting is apparently quite tedious - and unfortunately for the Army, slightly one-sided.

All I want to know is this: Why don't we just grab the bull by the horns and start from scratch. And make a JHF which encompasses all the rotary Lift and offensive capability with dedicated personnel who are given the time within their careers to excel at airborne mayhem.

The Ship is drifting my friends, and the hands on the tiller are old, weak and indecisive. I'm not against Senior officers - I'm just against the ones that don't see a need for radical change.

We need firm and proper leadership, not geriatric meandering from visionless technophobes with one eye on an OBE and one foot in the grave.

------------------
Christopher Robin

[This message has been edited by ChristopherRobin (edited 30 March 2000).]

[Pep Tilbud]

I agree with CR as I believe most people at grass roots do, and to raise the stakes a little how long do we expect to see the AAC last after AH is introduced and mistreated, where it will still play second fiddle to "soldiering" requirements. Are JHC really going to let it all go horribly wrong or put pressure on the powers that be to rethink our daily priorities before we let "Smythers and Carstairs" get to have a go!
Not being a retread it pains me to say that in the AH era Flying squadrons might benefit from not having integral groundcrew, i.e. a regiment would consist of a support squadron encompassing all AAC grouncrew trades, and Flying squadrons would consist of Flyers !
Before Capt Tercrue follows on from his "soldiers first" thread, there is animosity between Ground SSM's ( who at some point failed a pilots course) and Aircrew who don't appreciate being at his beck and call, because he feels we're his man power pool and not the groundies because they are busy dusting down the signals kit, that hasn't seen the outside of the store for 6 months.It may not be P.C. but its reality a WO 2 groundy feels its his duty to get one over on the Cpl pilot when he's 1/2 an inch away from his cab on the ground!! If we need administering by anyone let it be a "Flight Sergeant Major" and " Flight Commander" from the Aircrew who have a greater knowledge of our working and shirking practices. Then when it all goes wrong we'll only have ourselves to blame....

[Davey Emsey]

Spaceman, CR

Maybe I didn't put it very well, but I stand by my last post.

How would you define Spec Air Crew?

I would say they are Aircrew who are percieved as not going on to staff officer/Senior Officer rank/positions, but who's experience is seen as invaluable to the service. I would also say that most NCO Aircrew (Army) could be described - using the above definition - as the Army's equivalent to Spec Aircrew.

I certainly was not suggesting that we do not need to keep our Officer experience and if you have read other threads on this forum you will already know my views on the subject.

[330GAL]

Goodness me! Having met a few of you chaps and worked with you on occasions I honestly hope that it is not as bad as this forum would suggest. If my eyes were rather tainted before they are being well and truly opened now, or is it just a few dissenters?

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Christopher Robin, It seems your loyalty to our illustrious Corps is dubious, so have you considered the other options?.... transfer in rank to either the RAF or RN and stay flying, as this is obviously what you want to do. (& probably 90% of all Capts in the AAC)..

P.S. If you do decide to go let DAAvn know why!

[ChristopherRobin]

Jemima - nothing wrong with my loyalty - you obviously haven't read the rest of the thread - I want to stay in the AAC - I just think that we need an all ranks spec aircrew system for AH. If All I wanted to do was fly then yes I would go elsewhere. My point is that the complexity of AH, plus the fact that DAAvn want officers to fly it means that we can't have those officers bogging off for staff jobs! thanks for the tip though! :)

------------------
Christopher Robin

[SouthAfrican Git]

Ex True Blue and now out. Although unemployed have ATPL(H) and CPL(A)/IR and looking forward to a job sooner or later. Leaving the AAC best thing I have done. If you stay in my advice is take the money and dont worry about how s**t it is, as you will never improve the AAC.Dont work to hard for your money as it makes no difference - there is no performance related pay. Remember if it gets to hard in civi street the AAC will probably take you back, but I would prefer the RAF or Fleet Air Arm.

PS if you want to fly leave the AAC

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Christopher, If you allude to spec aircrew for the AH, what about those officers, who:

a. do not want AH
b. Do not get AH
c. are too old for AH

are their careers tiered in a different way, or are they consigned to the standard Soldiers 1st, Aviators 2nd policy.
Can the system cope with 3 tiers of officer career?

[Reg C Elley]

SAG
It sounds to me that we're well rid of you! :)
The Corps has just about had it's fill of people with your attitude. It's time that those members of the Blue Beret Club realised that the only way forward is to put as much in as they expect to get out. The days of self serving individuals is over. I am by no means a pontificating kowtowing a*se licker, just someone who would like to see the Corps develop and evolve in this new era, the only way it can happen is if we all share a common purpose and yes, put in that extra effort. Surprisingly it does get noticed and also benefits the individual as well as those around us.
We've all seen on these pages about how little flying there is in units. Amazingly there are people who are flying all the hours God sends, for whose benefit? Not their own but those who they are training. Yes I am a QHI and yes I work my butt off trying to do the best I can to help those in my care. I don't get a penny more than my non-QHI contempories. But, at the end of the week I know that maybe, just maybe, I may have contributed to helping prevent some poor bug*er winding up in a heap of smoking wreckage.
That to me is a reasonable method of trying to improve the AAC.
If you want performance related pay join a f**cking trade union,or better still join the RAF or the FAA, not that they'd be remotely interested in someone with your attitude.
PS. I wonder why you're still unemployed, problems with the interviews! :)
PPS. You are right about one thing, leaving the AAC was the best thing you've ever done.

[ChristopherRobin]

Amen to that!

Jemima its simple m8 - not all officers want to fly as you correctly pointed out - so let them continue up the chain to do the jobs that you have to do to get to be a CO etc. At the minute the AAC tries to put everyone on a regular commission through the same hoops. Now they have a golden opportunity to stream people to their best abilities i.e: people who want to fly and are good at it to remain so, people who have a thirst for higher command and get a kick out of gold braid weighing their brains down to continue up the chain. I personally feel that the RAF do this in a reasonably sane way and I can't shake the feeling that the only reason the AAC aren't is because they are reluctant to align themselves with our illustrious colleagues in light blue. Besides - look at the marines at the minute: no more NCO aircrew - that just leaves the army as the odd men out and I don't think we'll resist for too much longer, so you never know Jemima, you could be in line for a promotion to 2Lt soon - come up to my mess....and you'll soon see who the daddy is!
:)

[This message has been edited by ChristopherRobin (edited 07 April 2000).]

[Corimec Kid]

Having read this thread through, I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Robin on virtually all his points. And if SAG hated the AAC so much, why didn't he join his own country's Forces? As for the implementation of AH and the general state of the Corps, although I'm in it for as long as I can persuade the powers that be to keep me, and I'm determined to do my bit for the future, I can't help feeling that we're all being cordially invited to a Gateaux and Derrier Soiree (bring a bottle of something strong!)

[SouthAfrican Git]

To all , I enjoyed the AAC , but please take off the "Rose coloured specs". I was not a QHI but one of the mortals who tried to keep current in all respects of flying, and was reasonably successful. I was it is granted disillusioned when I left. This due to the fact that several questions I and most of the pilots/groundies had about the future of the AAC were not answered in a satisfactory manner. Namely

1. Does the AAC have a creditable logistic plan to support the AH?
2. Does the AAC have or plan to have sufficient ground equipment to operate AH?. Think how many "Bowsers are on line in the Regiments.
3. Due to Army retention problems do you think the AAC will be able to retain sufficient "Ground Personel" to operate AH?. They havent at the moment.
4. Have you heard about any pre AH Aircrew/Signals/Weapons/EW training in the pipeline to prepare pilots/Groundcrew for the huge leap from Lynx/Gazelle onto Apache?.
5. Does it make economic sense to continue with the present "Officer structure" if they are going to do one tour on the beast and then move into Staff Work?. Thoughts on binning the SSC?.
6. What about communications training ie "Bowman" and the transition into the Digital battlefield?.
7. To those in Regiments have YOU had any answers to these questions?.

Finally do you have any indication that the Army has the money and will to successfully implement the AH into the All Arms Battle?.

PS. How long will this take 5-10 years or longer?.

No offense is intended but I would like to hear from those who have heard the answers.

[This message has been edited by SouthAfrican Git (edited 16 April 2000).]

[SouthAfrican Git]

To all , I enjoyed the AAC , but please take off the "Rose coloured specs". I was not a QHI but one of the mortals who tried to keep current in all respects of flying, and was reasonably successful. I was it is granted disillusioned when I left. This due to the fact that several questions I and most of the pilots/groundies had about the future of the AAC were not answered in a satisfactory manner. Namely

1. Does the AAC have a creditable logistic plan to support the AH?
2. Does the AAC have or plan to have sufficient ground equipment to operate AH?. Think how many "Bowsers are on line in the Regiments.
3. Due to Army retention problems do you think the AAC will be able to retain sufficient "Ground Personel" to operate AH?. They havent at the moment.
4. Have you heard about any pre AH Aircrew/Signals/Weapons/EW training in the pipeline to prepare pilots/Groundcrew for the huge leap from Lynx/Gazelle onto Apache?.
5. Does it make economic sense to continue with the present "Officer structure" if they are going to do one tour on the beast and then move into Staff Work?. Thoughts on binning the SSC?.
6. What about communications training ie "Bowman" and the transition into the Digital battlefield?.
7. To those in Regiments have YOU had any answers to these questions?.

Finally do you have any indication that the Army has the money and will to successfully implement the AH into the All Arms Battle?.

PS. How long will this take 5-10 years or longer?.

No offense is intended but I would like to hear from those who have heard the answers.

[ChristopherRobin]

well, so would we all my colonial and strange-accented friend! that's what the whole post is about! - the main problem remains - PERSONNEL! and the answer remains....elusive.

Please please PLEASE don't make me a shiny-@rse! let me at least aspire to being a professional aviator! is my cry of silly optimism and then I remember the answer given to this plea by the AH Briefing team when asked by a colleague. Do you know what the Colonel in charge said?

"If you wanted to fly you should have joined the RAF"

?????????????????????

That, I promise you is a direct quote. Please God make them see sense - or do I have to join the RAF in order to fly AH-64 on an exchange tour while all my ex-colleagues languish in "totally necessary for your career" jobs like SO3 G4 in Hohne?

It'll happen - but it isn't too late!

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE JHC, SEE SENSE!

....

------------------
Christopher Robin

[Poor Pongo]

OK, I've read this one for long enough and its time to add my sixpen'th!

First I agree with Reg that we are well rid of anyone who holds or held the views expressed by SAG!

I also agree with the majority of CR's posts and the overall theme that runs through this thread. I have one major disagreement, however... I really don't think that spec aircrew is the answer and here is why.

The vast majority of AAC officers (re-treads and true blue) want to fly a lot more than they want to do any shiny *rse jobs. I've done both and believe me there ain't no doubt in my mind about which seat I would rather spend my work time in!

We employ our officers to command. I realise that a statement like that may cause some consternation amongst those who feel they have been commanded by officers who they feel have not done the job properly, but it nevertheless remains the case. If we do not allow - and use - our officers to command then why bother paying them more then the NCOs; it would be unfair to both sides. Also someone has to be in charge and we have a rank stucture to support that necessity which, for better or worse requires someone to do the dirty work.

This has led us to one big problem. Our commanders are not allowed sufficient experience to enable them (or some/many of them) to perform the tasks they are asked and paid to do. Will the introduction of spec aircrew solve this problem? I don't think so; in fact it would probably make it worse. We would simply put in place a mechanism which further divided the authority (which surely we would agree someone has to exercise) from the experience needed to do it. A lot of good guys would go spec aircrew and then we would have even fewer officers with any experience in the command positions (which are not going to go away).

So what's my solution? Obvious really - and I suspect one that our sister service came to terms with about 40 years ago... uprank the officer jobs in an AAC sqn. OC as a Lt Col, Flts commanded by Majors (pre-staff college), other officers (pilots, aircraft commanders and patrol leaders) as various Capts, Lts and 2Lts. Make the Sqn 2IC and Ops jobs equivalent to Adjt and Ops jobs in terms of reporting. Separate the sqns. Split the Regt resources up amongst them or centralise as necessary. At each of our bases make the new boss a full Col - I know, we could call him the station commander couldn't we... I don't know about anyone else but this structure is starting to look familiar to me. It exists and works very successfully in our sister service and by the way Wallop doesn't exactly look that diferent.

Advantages? By the time an AAC officer becomes a Flt Commander then he will be about 33 and have had more years to attain relevant experience. He is likely to have spent 8-10 years at front line - and all of them in the relatively recent past and on type and in role (I'm thinking AH here but the principle applies).

Disadvatages? Cost is the primary arguement which is likely to be raised but... The actual capitation rate increases required are likely to be pennies as part of the overall scheme; there will be a significant reduaction in the training bill (and considering the cost of AH hrs this is important!) as people will need much less refresher training as they are likely to be allowed to stay at front line longer; I suspect fewer officer pilots will leave as they will see the possibility of longer flying careers (definately up to major, maybe as Lt Cols and a very few Cols) and so we should save the very considerable throughput costs which are incurred every tme that someone leaves and we have to retrain his replacement.

A few final thoughts: there might be some downside in that AAC officers would have to be on longer terms of service (like the crabs) again to ensure that they get better return of service and to fund all this. As that time would be spent flying then I suspect that it would not be a problem, however - it would also encourage people to take a stake in the organisation and not be the kind of short-timer, amateur, free-loaders who are just in for what they can get.

So whaddaya think???

[suckback 6]

If SAG is who I think he is I hate to agree with him. However,to all the boys in green I say don't worry, Once the airforce adopt the AAC you will all be able to fly for as long as you like and the lands will be replete with milk and honey! (and anyone who thinks that a harrier johnny wouldn't make a half decent Apache pilot is living in a dream world!!)

[A/Tpr Cooper]

Suckback 6, the crabs don't have enough Harrier drivers to drive the Harrier, never mind taking on the Apache AH1.
Blowback double 2.

[ChristopherRobin]

Poor Pongo - as with all great solutions its so simple that I never even thought of it before! Yes you're absolutely right, especially so now with the JHC - in JHF(NI) there is already the situation where the Sqn comds of some of that units sqns are wg comds (lt cols) and some of the sqns are commanded by majors. If it goes like this under JHC then it is clearly an asymmetric situation which usually involves someone pulling rank and that is never really a good thing.

Oh and Suckback - what makes you think that harrier pilots are brave enough to hover without an ejector seat?

------------------
Christopher Robin

[Bush Cat]

Mmmmmm.....

I like the way you are thinking but that would take far too much time to impliment.

It will get in the way of the skiing, sailing holidays. Oh, and of course the running of the Army Flying Museum.

I will stick around for the RAF to take control of the situation. They have my backing.

[denied]

I don't want to be a damp squib about all this, and I know about the anonymity thing, but have any of you voiced these concerns of yours to JHC, DAAvn etc etc etc ? I share all your grievances and worries about the future, believe me, but simply bitching among ourselves here won't solve anything, (unless the Brig is registered...)

------------------
d

[Junglie]

Christopher Robin you are bold if a little foolish to be quite so cutting in this forum however your sentiments are not wrong. Particularly your point reference spec aircrew types in the AAC. The FAA who similarly in the past would send their officers to irrelevant staff jobs before handing them a squadron where Junior Pilots have to tactfully re advise of long lost skills!! Finally now they have succumbed, remembering we don't have the backbone of experience of SNCO's, the mid range experience, what i would call the third tour ac cdrs/ flt cdrs have all recently left in search of suits and air hostesses(not a bad idea really!). Careers in aviation within the FAA are actually achievable now without going off to drive ships or stand in an ops room practising Awfully Slow Warfare (ASW) a critical skill for the future when you take your battlefield helicopter to war! An FAA Officer could now finish up as a Commodore or maybe a Rear Admiral having avoided the Deep Blue and have the aviation experience necessary in depth that you pongos crave in your Officers Corps. Good Luck to you. For once it seems that the RN has listened and might even lower the PVR rate(but i doubt it).

As for SH lack of AH knowledge we have an advantage with 847NAS (ex3BAS) being next door and constantly embarked and operating together. There is also a large amount of crossover between AH and SH, RN and RM in all of the RN Battlefield Helicopter Squadrons something that was noted by our light blue friends who visited OCEAN for Brightstar last year and massively improved the Air Groups lift capability and were a welcome asset (and good boys too amazingly!!) Shame they couldn't quite manage to land on our biggest ship without ripping off two wheels must have been the excellence of the two QHI's flying it!!Must dash.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Sorry Junglie, but only one of the pilots was a QHI. And I could name a few of you guys who have had similar incidents, but then you would argue that its probably because they had done an exchange with the RAF!

Hoping that Ocean won't ask us back for round 2!!

[Junglie]

Hydraulic palm tree
Sorry you're right it was the Training Officer and the detachment boss i do apologise!! Only put that in for a bite and got one thankyou!! I did also say what a spiffing job you all did on that one. It seems that in our world the RAF exchange officers crash our aircraft, the AAC exchange either gets an AFC or crosses to the dark side!! Remember deck height 49 feet!!

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Junglie wrong again. The Det Cdr WAS the QHI the other guy was a line pilot.

The Navy exchange guy to us breaks things as well! This time his leg whilst skiing on det in Norway! Actually its a ligament thing, not broken.

[Junglie]

Sorry hydraulic i think i know who you might be!! Oh well semantics really get well soon to the exchange boy whoever he is !!??What a nuggett i did the same last year in the same place! oops! Stop biting crabbo or i'll run out of bait!! Happy flying.

[Onya Backbitch]

CR, dont take Jemimas advise and transfer,sounds to me like we could do with a few more of your type in the commisioned ranks to keep the puzzle palace at Davn in the picture with the real problems that are facing the corps. How many guys in your crewroom are at present going through the Civvy licence process.
Now theres a thourght, why not give frozen licences at the end of the course with a time bar and a requisite number of hours before they can be used, might get a few more people staying and trying to improve our lot.
Sadly I dont think the powers that be would even consider that option even though the CAA apparently offered it to the MOD a few years back and it was rejected!
Doesnt loyalty swing both ways ?

[This message has been edited by Onya Backbitch (edited 23 April 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Onya Backbitch (edited 23 April 2000).]

[Davey Emsey]

Onya

What you are suggesting with the frozen PVR form is a very real possibility and the discussions with the CAA are at an advanced stage according to SO1 Keeping People Happy(DAAvn) A figure of 2000 hours has been suggested, but that is just speculation at this stage.

[BEagle]

Let's think of a new name for this round black rubber thing with an axle in the middle!! I suggested this very thing to CinC Strike and AMP as a recruiting and retention incentive before the Secretary of State for Defence announced the same idea in the House as government policy. Service personnel are to be given the "chance to achieve qualifications recognised by civilian employers" was, I believe, what he said!! He described this government policy as a "significant new training and education initiative to boost recruitment and retention". So perhaps we'll see some sort of positive announcement before too long??

[Davey Emsey]

BEagle

Perhaps we have you to thank for this then. We were briefed that is in line with Goverment policy to recognise practical (Vocational) skills as well as academic achievement. We are of course well aware that no-one from Westminster could have come up with such a reasoned argument and so it is very likely that this has come from within. It was also implied that we (Army) are very much jumping on the Crab bandwagon on this subject and it is being driven primarily by you boys, so in advance, I thank you again.

[BEagle]

DE - much as I am flattered by your comments, I would advise you to reserve judgement until the substance of any military accreditation is actually in existence!! Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of rotary wing regulatory requirements under JARs; all my suggestions were formulated on the 'truckie' world of JAR-OPS 1 and JAR-FCL 1 as an initial foot-in-the-door!! Because the ME world is the easiest comparative standard for the CAA to understand as it is closest to civil airline practice.
Whilst I would willingly accept that there is a common core level of initial training in all the Services and that a great deal of osmotic knowledge is obtained in 2-3 tours on all aircraft types, I fear that the CAA will be less generous in accepting accreditation for fast-jet and rotary pilots than for multi-crew multi-engine fixed wing pilots. Don't blame the 'truckies', but work on what may or may not be forthcoming with your staffs to your corporate benefit.
PS: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Staff Officer. Neither have I had a ground job in the last 30 years!!

[Authen]

As a new shall I say subscriber, I have read with interest the comments given in this Forum.

The suggestions in some cases appear to be inovative and thought provoking.

So could someone please tell me why these points are not raised at commanders question time,(for want of a better name). I'm sure you have heard the phrase No col/wing cdr etc. the exercise was fine only a few minor points to iron out. (Bo%$£c^&)

It seems to me that many problems could be solved with these ideas coming from experienced operators, were they to fall on more receptive ears.

A substansive problem seems to therefore exist in scenior management ie. No one has said no to these people for 25 years.

Agree/Disagree ?

[Wibblekipper Hatstand!]

Authen, hi, agreeish, disagreeish. Trouble is we all have mortgages/big cars/wifes/loose women to pay for and as you will no doubt be aware, if we voiced opinions as they should be, to try and make the 'Job' better, we would be drummed out of the brownies pretty damn sharpish, fact of life as those above have mortgages/big cars/wifes/loose women/men to provide for and also don't want to rock the boat.

I think this forum (we all know its read by those on high) is the only realistic 'Acorn' site to discuss things of an important nature with anonimity (For now!), to let said ppl know whats really p1ssing us off on the coal face.
Can you imagine siting down at the commanders 'O' group and casually suggesting some of the useful points being aired here, I don't think so! Rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong springs to mind!!!
So, anyone who feels they are important who comes to this site, please make note of remarks made, not to get the pliers out and remove finger nails but hopefully to get a real feel (11 sqn excepted!) of the opinions of a vast majority of sensible comments made that, to be quite honest, are reality and not the normal 'painted grass and very smart soldier/airmen types, yes men who tell you want you want and not what is the real problem' kind of cr@p.
Or do I just see too many moons from my planet? Bark, bark, phnarr!

[ChristopherRobin]

Yes in an ideal world that is the way things would happen, but I think you would agree it really depends on the type of hierarchy you have. I know of one instance where a LCpl in the Guards berated the Minister for Defence recently over the SA80 rifle by demonstrating to him how it could fall to bits in front of him while saying "look Sir it's sh!te!", much to the amusement of his CO (who was a thoroughly good bloke btw).

Now - try doing that in front of some of our COs and it wouldn't be long before the Regimental Webley was being put to good use.

But you are right Authen of course. We must have the b@lls to stand up and be counted, the thing is that people do raise these matters, I have seen them being raised and some senior officers do listen to their credit. It tends to be the middle management who want to shield and cocoon their superiors from their subordinates - as if real concerns/whinges/even good ideas from the troops should reflect badly on them.

Now there are some bosses who will support you all the way, but they are not, I fear, in the majority.

For those lacking the requisite spinal column, the situation is this: They're still our boss, and nothing short of flying in a Lynx is going to get rid of them. Therefore we can either: a) Use our benign influence on them (much as in the time honoured SNCO/younger officer way), or b) do nothing. A clear choice.

I think we have to remember that most AAC middle officers have little management experience relative to their other arms contemporaries due to spending so much time training (both adventure and flying), and therefore need the traditional "guiding hand" for a bit longer.

Of course, if he's unwilling to learn/listen then we're back at square one - but we can only try.

That's the trouble with me - I'm too much of an optimist.


------------------
Christopher Robin

[This message has been edited by ChristopherRobin (edited 25 April 2000).]

[James R Swift]

As an outsider, it just seems as though the operators are not best served by the Chain of Command, who seem not to appreciate the value, potential or needs of aviation. Doubtless many in the RAF would criticise their own leadership in similar terms, but at least they are in an organisation whose primary purpose is military aviation. Maybe the world would be a better place if the AAC was transferred, lock, stock and barrel to the light blues (retaining your brown suits and pale blue berets, ranks and whatever else is important to you) but losing the situation in which young Ruperts can come to the Corps for three years, leaving your units short of experienced aircrew officers. Or does that idea make you too nervous?

[Tonkenna]

Ah, Mr Swift. You would think that our primary job was flying, but that is not what gets you along in this mans Air Force. We have similar problems to the AAC in that you are seen as a bit of a failiure if you wish to keep flying, and of course, once you are a senior Flt Lt you run out of pay increases as well. With expensive ex-wives, children and houses to look after one has to think of the future. I need more dosh but love flying. Sadly the two things are mutualy exclusive, therefore the only options are a)to be promoted and not fly (and even then get very little more for a s**t job and a lot more work) or b) join Mr Branson or one of his mates. With the 2nd option you even get a new toy to play with as well and not some 30 yr old museum piece (beautiful though she maybe!!)

Experience levels are getting lower in all three services and something has to be done to redress this. We are told we are the best (RAF Vision for example), but we cannot keep it up if all the experience is stuck behind a desk or on the flt deck of a 777.

Tonks

[Pep Tilbud]

James R Swift obviously the whole off the AAC transferring to the RAF has its plus side ( soft beds, fluffy uniforms, and tasty tucker). The need to have officers aircrew for more than 3 years ain't neccessarily one of them, during which particular phase of training at Cranwell and Sandhurst does the ability to be a naturally better aviator than a SNCO or to that end a JNCO get installed. As an outsider you might find it a bizarre concept to have the least experinced pilot who probably isn't an Aircraft commander in charge of the flight, because having been commisioned being capable or not he must therefore lead the NCO's ( Some are born Flight commanders, Some have flight commander thrust upon them !) Now this isn't a dig at Officers' just the fact that if you are going to invite us across to your side that we leave our outdated rank structure with the horse that it rode in on! Sorry should that be Tank.......

[James R Swift]

In my day .......

Suffice it to say that while I never flew with a Flight Sergeant Flight Lead, it wasn't that long since such a thing had happened, and it seemed to work fairly well...........

[ACORN]

Ah James, nervous is not the question! What you suggest or hint at is not for the individual but for those of us who have reasons deeper!!! 'Deep' I know, but some of us do do it for reasons other than personal comfort. A new service along the lines of the British Defence Helicopter Service would provide for the needs of the UK national interest whilst going the whole way to uniting the helicopter operators of the services to provide the required product! This I feel is what was required rather than the JHC issue that fudged what I feel can only be resolved with time when individual service attitudes and predjudices can be overcome. We already have a joint training setup, a JHC, a DHSU, joint courses, and the will to operate together to provide the desired result, lets go the whole hog!!!!!!!!!!

[Corimec Kid]

Acorn, I refer you to my post 'what price a Royal Flying Corps'. Could be the way forward, methinks.

[ACORN]

Corimec, I agree but I feel the only way ahead is for no particular service to be 'seen to win'. With this in mind the RFC would be associated with Army although the BDHS would be totally impartial. What do you think?

[ChristopherRobin]

How about the British Attack and Reaction Force?

I agree Acorn - and it almost certainly will go that way in the future, however I'm worried about now, not when I am lying in some corner of a foreign field.

At the minute, the AAC is still the square peg of the army officer career structure trying to cram itself into the decidedly round hole of flying.

Why don't they just start with a completely clean sheet, and on, say 1st Jan 2002, every one who flies helicopters goes into a new 4th force - allowed to develop its own doctrine, ethos and ridiculous mess rules; where everyone, not just the officers will be entitled to wear barbours and banana cords; where handlebar moustaches are seen as a thing of the past and not some "mad" Sqn Ldr's idea of "dash"; where birds sing in the trees and little children run laughing through the empty hangars because all the serviceable aircraft have gone flying with...

...happy cheerful well motivated crews who don't have to become faceless suits in the MOD until they are at least 45.

...true professionals who are allowed to develop into a coherent fighting force, not dragged away long before they achieve their true potential.

...all led by people who are experienced, who know the kit and the teams' collective abilities inside out, who their subordinates can trust.

I noticed somebody posted under the user name of "JHC WILTON" in the topic "LYNX HELICOPTERS GROUNDED"....well I am sure that you are reasonably senior Sir - if you read this please pass my compliments to the AVM and tell him that, as per the original post in this thread, we appreciate that there is a requirement to do desk jobs eventually; but surely he must be able to see that the way to stop the haemorraging of pilots especially in the Capt-Major bracket is to say:

"never mind about being an adjutant/SO3/SO2 etc - we'll get a tankie to do that! you just keep on honing your highly perishable skills there until we need you to go and kill someone without getting topped yourself, there's a good chap!"

Like all good ideas, its simple and I'd bet my life (well I am a Lynx pilot) it'd be effective.


------------------
Christopher Robin

[Chadi Kit]

A couple of quick points -
Denied, Yes JHC is aware of the situation in the light blue beret wearing community. During a recent, high level vist I stood 3 feet away as he was informed in fairly basic english of what was wrong and right(ish) by a few near lifex SNCO's. He ignored the bouncing OC behind him and actually seemed to listen. Or was it a trick they learn at Sandhurst.
Second, why do I think I know most people posting here - is it because I do or are we all really thinking the same thing -even the Crabs (I put a capital on it!).