Glider down in a field in Angus

[piperboy84]

Nephew just called and said there is a glider down in a field at Easterton Farm Melgund near Brechin in Angus He said it did not look damaged but the field is so small with a hill in the middle he doubted it was a planned landing. Will go along in the morning and have a look. Here's hoping all is ok

[Cusco]

Er, that's what gliders do............:ugh:

[piperboy84]

Really !! In a 600ft by 600ft hilly and rough field, if that is the case i would hate to pay the maintenance on one. Also how do they get it back in the air or is gliding a one shot deal

[mary meagher]

Yep, if you get it wrong, you visit a farmer.....

Your friends then come with the glider trailer, help you to remove the wings, load it up, and you all stop at the pub on the way home, after of course apologising to the farmer

But that is not the intention. These days gliders have good performance even into wind, and a cross country triangle typically is planned to end up where you started, saves taking it apart.... On a good day a lot of gliders will manage tasks between 140, 300, 500 kilometers, depending on weather and skill. In the UK several pilots have flown 750 k. I'm pretty sure in exotic places the 1,000 kilometer distance has been achieved...

If the weather or whatever lets you down, a field is chosen; size (large) surface - (not recently plowed) slope (don't try to land downhill, doesn't work). Cows are OK, so are sheep. Horses can be expensive. Crop is OK if you can see the soil through the leaves....etc etc.

About 30 gliders ended up during a regional competition in a couple of fields north of Birmingham. That evening the local Police rang the competition director (people see a glider in a field, must be an emergency). Said the Officer of the law to the nonplussed Director...."The next time you plan to have 30 gliders landing in my district, we will require 24 hours notice in advance......"

[A and C]

Gilder in a field ! Shock ! Horror ! I must be reading The Daily Mail !

[gpn01]

Really !! In a 600ft by 600ft hilly and rough field, if that is the case i would hate to pay the maintenance on one. Also how do they get it back in the air or is gliding a one shot deal

If that's the best field available, then so be it. Simple edict for glider pilots is that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field. Glider pilot had presumably assessed that it was the best landable option. Not actually that big a deal as gliders often land in fields, usually without damaging the glider, pilot or causing any damage to the field. Flying cross country a glider pilot is often operating mentally for much of the flight in EFATO mode....constantly weighing up options, fields, routes, etc. That's part of what makes it so much fun.

[Agaricus bisporus]

This is the equivalent of seeing a small boat sitting on the mud in a tidal estuary and advertising a shipwreck!

Incredible.

[BobD]

I think it is commendable of Piperboy to go along to check things out, and offer to lend a hand if need be.

[cats_five]

I suspect that all that will be there in the morning is an empty field. Maybe some tyre marks in the entrance, maybe a tyre mark from the main wheel if the field was soft enough.

[BabyBear]

I'm pretty sure in exotic places the 1,000 kilometer distance has been achieved...


Mary, wouldn't have thought you would consider Scotland exotic?:E It's an interesting read:ok:

Epic Flights: 1200km in Scottish Wave (http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co.uk/epic2.htm)

I believe it still stands as the UK record?

I also believe another UK record of 38600 feet was achieved north of the border from Aboyne?

BB

[cats_five]

Really !! In a 600ft by 600ft hilly and rough field, if that is the case i would hate to pay the maintenance on one. Also how do they get it back in the air or is gliding a one shot deal

They ring base and someone (or several someones) comes out with the trailer. They take the wings & tailplane off, put it all in the trailer and drive back to base. Then they take it out and rig it again...

[MichaelJP59]

I don't think people should be too unkind to piperboy84; many aspects of the sport of gliding appear somewhat strange to the uninitiated :)

[Cusco]

is gliding a one shot deal ?

The Colditz glider certainly was...................;)

[Dave Gittins]

So was operation Market Garden ..... and those must have been some brave guys.

The tows were a bit longer than the ones on the "tugging thread" currently running. Must have been pretty hard work tugging and being tugged for a couple of hours.

[thing]

They weren't just glider pilots either, they were expected to jump out and start fighting.

[jollyrog]

I don't think all the speculation on here is appropriate, not until the family of the pilot have been informed.

Please remember that this forum is read by the media.

[Dave Gittins]

Hmmmm :D :eek: :E :p

[cats_five]

Just been chatting to him. He is very happy as that was his 50 km flight to complete his silver badge. The glider is back at base rigged ready to fly again.

[znww5]

Sounds like some sort of engine problem to me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't think all the speculation on here is appropriate, not until the family of the pilot have been informed.

Please remember that this forum is read by the media.

"hello dear, I'm going to be a bit late home, I have to buy some beers for the retrieve crew."
"Not again !"
Family informed.

G

[BackPacker]

He is very happy as that was his 50 km flight to complete his silver badge.

Does an outlanding count for the 50km silver assignment? I would assume you've got to land at a "proper" place, for instance another gliding base, or at least a field which you declared in advance. Not just a field which happened to be underneath you once you are 50km from home base.

If not, you could just get yourself towed to 5500' altitude, glide in a straight line, find a field when you get below 500' and fulfill the requirement. (Assuming a 1:30 glide angle.) Where's the challenge in that?

[Heston]

The rules stipulate the height above which you may not be towed befrore starting the 50K attempt. You must carry a barograph which is inspected after the flight to ensure compliance. Even with modern gliders 50K is a real acheivement for the improving pilot.

H

[Piltdown Man]

Heston is spot on. The maximum difference between altitude of the airborne starting and the end landing point must not be more than 1% of the distance flown. A field landing is also more than acceptable, as long as it is far enough away. For those being launched by aerotow, the tug driver also has to say where and how high he dropped his victim off. A winch launch simplifies things.

Returning to the OP, a hill in the middle of a field is often quite a good thing. Land at the edge and roll up the hill to stop. Landing uphill also does a good job at killing any float. Ask pilots from Dunstable about that. As for crashed gliders, I've apparently been involved in lots of them. Concerned members of the public call regularly call the police to report an incident. It's quite good really because if you did actually spang it into the ground, it would be nice to found sooner than later. Generally though, it turns out to be a waste of police time.

I just hope nobody tells the press that gliders regularly "crash" into fields on purpose.

PM

[piperboy84]

Well as you can tell I am somewhat unfamiliar with gliders and there operations, but am truly amazed at the utility of them being able to land it in a tiny/hilly field and get the wings off and back home so easy, I have a few questions, when re-installing the wings and re rigging does that have to be done by a certified airframe mechanic? does a glider have to have a certificate of airworthiness like powered aircraft or can the glider owner upon becoming proficient in the crafts systems work on/and remove and reinstall the wings and rigging themselves?,

[thing]

They do have certs and the owner can rig and derig their own glider. Well anyone can rig and derig any glider as long as they've been shown the salient points. I had to derig the club K8 after my 50k downwind dash. It's suprisingly simple, gliders are designed to be quickly rigged and derigged precisely because they finish up in fields. Also at the end of the flying day at most clubs, personal gliders are put back in their trailers.

It's obviously sensible to get your rig checked by someone else who knows how to rig that particular glider.

[Denti]

Nope, no licensed mechanic needed to pull it apart or put it back together if you mean the normal rigging out of the trailer or back in. Gliders are built and certified that way, it is normal for them to have the wings and tailplane removed or put back in. At least over here in germany they do have a normal certificate of airworthiness and are subject to normal part M maintenance.

Found a site with a one person rigging assembly (http://www.enstroj.si/Glider-products/one-man-glider-assembly.html) which shows some pictures and videos about rigging, however i haven't used any product of that kind, rigging with two or three persons usually takes around 5 to 15 minutes.

[BabyBear]

piperboy, it sounds like it is time you got yourself acquainted with gliding. It is an absolutely wonderful way to fly. IMHO the mistake is in trying to compare it to power, you can't, they are just different.

I found this Angus Gliding Club Web Site (http://www.angusgliding.co.uk/)

BB

[BackPacker]

Actually the rigging/derigging procedure is listed in the PILOT operating handbook of a glider, and (at least here in NL) common rigging issues, like the proper way to attach and lock the flight controls, are tested as part of the written exams.

So, yes, rigging and derigging is a very common task in the glider world, and is intended to be done by a pilot, not by a mechanic.

[Denti]

True, it is a normal procedure covered in the POH. Do you mean it is tested during the license tests? Or do you need to do a written test for each new glider you fly?

[Piltdown Man]

Here's one for you piperboy.

PM

[BackPacker]

Denti, so far I've only done the written exams. There were a few questions in there about common rigging/de-rigging issues, mostly pertaining to control connections and the locking thereof. Things like correct usage of locking pins.

I would assume that an actual rigging/derigging, or at least a discussion of that, would be part of the practical exam, but I'm not there yet.

[cats_five]

I don't remember it being in the Bronze exam in the UK, and at present that's the only exam we do - EASA looms. The person I brought my glider from showed me (we rigged, fiddled & derigged when I went to see it), I showed my syndicate partner. We also help rig & derig club gliders which where I fly are all modern glass gliders. We always do a positive control check after rigging, and club gliders get one each time they are DI'd.

BTW there are more gliding clubs in Scotland:
The Scottish Gliding Centre Official Website (http://www.scottishglidingcentre.com/index.htm) (Portmoak)
Cairngorm Gliding Club - Feshie (http://www.gliding.org/)
Highland Gliding Club (http://www.highglide.co.uk/) (Easterton)
http://www.deesideglidingclub.co.uk/ (Aboyne)
Home Page (http://dumfriesgliding.110mb.com/) (Dumfries)

However so far as I know only the first flies 7 days a week, weather permitting.

[A and C]

As with all things that can kill you if you get it wrong it is a good one a to have someone look over the glider you have just rigged, mistakes in this area are rare but could be fatal.

Interestingly some of the modern powered aircraft like the Diamond's show their ancestry in the way the wings are attached, it is very easy to get the wings off with just a few control conections and two bolts to undo to get the spar pin locks out, the de- rig can be done very quickly once you have taken the fuel out of the wings.................that is if you don't decide to try to remove the spar pin locks with a hacksaw like someone tried to do on an aircraft I recently put back together!

[cumulusrider]

On a typical modern glider such as a Discus or Ventus the spars slot through the fuselage and locate in the oposite wing. They are held in place with a single pin through both spars and safety clipped.
The tailplane is loctated on two lugs that operate the elevator at the rear and a spring loaded pin at the front.
All controls are automatically connected.

Tape up the gaps, DI and fly.
Simples.

[The500man]

I don't think all the speculation on here is appropriate, not until the family of the pilot have been informed.

Please remember that this forum is read by the media.

That guy makes me smile. Oh and before I forget... A lot of nonsense being said here! ;)

[WorkingHard]

Why does the glider arm of flying seem to work in kilometres when the rest of the UK uses statute miles or nautical miles please?

[cats_five]

All the performance flights for badges and diplomas are in metric - meters of height gained, kilometers of distance flown.

Would you rather fly 50 km for your silver distance badge or 26.9978402 nm? They are the same (according to the Google calculator), but the former is less of a mouthful!

However we do use feet, knots and knots on the altimeter, asi and vario in the UK and the placard for my glider is marked in pounds and knots.

[Denti]

Its different on the continent, ASI's are marked in km/h, V/S in m/s, altitude in meters, weights are in kg and so on. Same for most so called ultralights. However modern glass cockpit interiors for gliders display feet and FL as well if you have to fly into airspace that requires that (above FL100/130 in germany).

[chrisN]

I use a one-person rigging aid (to put the wings on and off) and it works fine if the ground is reasonably level. It takes slightly longer than if a competent helper is available, but still only 15 minutes or so to rig to the point that the airframe is ready.

Taping up the gaps (almost the last bit of the video clip above) to make for really clean aerodynamics, and putting in carry-on pilot equipment including logger, computer, programming intended route, etc., can take as long again – but most of that needs doing even if it is kept rigged in a hangar, plus a DI (daily inspection – like a walk round plus some bits).

DI is taught by clubs, and pilots have their log books signed to show competence, usually after learning to do it on a club glider. Other types one learns from others and/or the handbook. It is not part of any formal examination in the UK AFAIK.

I think the French invented certificate requirements and nomenclature for records distances and heights, hence the metric notation. It is not just gliding – ballooning and other aviation sporting achievements use them too. There is a clue in the name of the world body that governs it all – FAI (Fédération Aéronautique Internationale, "FAI - The World Air Sports Federation").

Chris N

[cats_five]

I flew my glider once without wing tape (too damp to get it to stick) and speed control was all over the place because of the noise.

AFAIK because of legislation changes pilots must now have a Bronze to do a DI without supervision, so no more signing off in the log book. However we do teach doing a DI. Each type of glider has it's own gotchas - or at least each type I've done a DI on.

[Jim59]

AFAIK because of legislation changes pilots must now have a Bronze to do a DI without supervision, so no more signing off in the log book. However we do teach doing a DI. Each type of glider has it's own gotchas - or at least each type I've done a DI on. Sorry but that statement is factually incorrect. The BGA has taken that stance on the basis that a DI is a maintenance task but it is not supported by legislation - in fact the relevant EASA legal document states almost the opposite. To perform pilot/owner maintenance and to sign it off in the log book the pilot must hold a licence or equivalent (in the UK a Bronze), however Part M Appendix XIII states that:
Any task described in the aircraft flight manual as preparing the aircraft for flight (Example: assembling the glider wings or pre-flight), is considered to be a pilot task and is not considered a Pilot-owner maintenance task and therefore does not require a Certificate of Release to Service.Since the DI for a glider is normally described in the FM then the legal requirement is that it be a pilot not a licensed / bronze pilot.

[BackPacker]

Since in the UK there is no formal GPL exam, at what point in time is a person considered a "pilot", and no longer a "student pilot" flying under the authorization of an instructor?

I would assume that's the earliest opportunity that a person could do a DI and sign off the aircraft by him/herself. Until then it would be the instructors responsibility.

If the BGA doesn't consider you a "pilot" until you achieve bronze, the point is moot, right?

[piperboy84]

Well after starting this thread about a glider down in a field near Melgund (Brechin) I was out flying the Maule on Saturday and upon my return to my grass strip (09-27) the wind was from the North and was pushing up against my planes xwind limits (and exceeding my personal capabilities by a mile). After circling around for 30 minutes with no change I decided to go over to our other farm and see if one of the winter wheat fields with North/South tramlines would work for a precautionary landing until conditions improved at the home strip. One in particular looked like a good option and I landed and left the Maule there overnight. Interestingly, it was about a 1/2 mile from where I'd seen the glider, and yes, some nosy bastard called to report a "plane down in a field near Melgund" Bloody typical !!!!

[Dave Gittins]

Now there's poetic justice.

Couldn't you find one with a hill in the middle ? :}

[BabyBear]

:D:D:D

The irony indeed!

Congrats. on your successful precautionary landing.

You checked out gliding yet?


BB

[piperboy84]

Going to go over to Drumshade Gliding when we get done with this snow. In the meantime I have been reading up on "mountain waves" and rotors etc. and have decided that if I am going to be flying the Maule around the highlands (and Grampians in particular) I need to figure how to read and perhaps anticipate what the winds are doing and their affects. Learning a bit about gliding appears to be one way to achieve that.

[chrisN]

From BGA laws and Rules 2010 edition (the latest and current version:
---
“THE LAW
OPERATIONAL REGULATIONS

ANO 2009

3.1
(b) Pilot/Owner maintenance including daily inspection (DI) must be carried out and certified in accordance with EU regulation
2042/2003 as amended. Pilots carrying out maintenance must
hold a valid pilot’s licence (or equivalent)

[snip]

3.4 All gliders operated from BGA club sites shall be inspected before flying on each day. Club gliders shall be inspected by club approved persons who must sign that the glider is serviceable before it is flown on that day.
-----


As stated above, “Bronze” is taken as the equivalent of a licence. There is a formal exam for Bronze, though again AFAIK it does not include details of how to do a DI, and certainly does not have a practical DI examination.


Club pilots who DI club gliders are often pre-Bronze but are then presumed (AFAIK) to be doing so under the supervision of a qualified pilot or instructor.


Chris N.

[BabyBear]

It is certainly worth trying, I did something similar last year and whilst I still have some way to go it has helped with reading the Sky. I think you will find the differences in how power and glider pilots view flying in general and more specifically, cloud, turbulence, altitude useful.

You never know you may even enjoy it.

BB

[astir 8]

Hi Piperboy

drop in at Feshiebridge (Cairngorm Gliding Club) some weekend! (PPR). Nice strip - but not in Easterlies though!

Watched a series on army helicopter pilots training once - they were flying in Snowdonia and the trainee commented - "Lots of downdraught here" - well duh, yes, on the lee side of a big ridge!

Rotor is even more to be avoided!

[Jim59]

3.1
(b) Pilot/Owner maintenance including daily inspection (DI) must be carried out and certified in accordance with EU regulation
2042/2003 as amended. Pilots carrying out maintenance must
hold a valid pilot’s licence (or equivalent)

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not ChrisN!
Regulation 2042/2003 is otherwise known as part M. During the consultation period I was active in getting the then proposed rules changed because as written only licensed pilots would be able to perform pilot/owner maintenance - which would have been disastrous for the UK gliding community who, in the period between Part M coming into force and glider pilots getting EASA SPLs or LAPS(S)s, would have been prohibited from doing such activity. The change was to get the words 'or equivalent' added where it specified that the pilot doing maintenance had to be licensed. The BGA, presumably in consultation with the CAA decided that Bronze is equivalent.

The original EASA proposals also made it a requirement that things like rigging, removing/replacing canopies (think Skylark and Oly), inflating tyres and many other things traditionally done by glider pilots would have needed to be signed off by an engineer every time. The way round this, which was accepted by EASA and put into the current regulations, was to allow the pilot to do anything that is a permitted activity in the specific aircraft's flight manual. The consequence is that a DI that is documented in a specific aircraft's flight manual is not deemed to be maintenance and can be done by a pilot without a licence or equivalent.

Coming to the BGA's position. They want pilots doing DIs to be Bronze holders. This is not an unreasonable position and those of us who are members of BGA clubs are required to abide with this. To claim that this is an EASA legal requirement is, though, incorrect. I believe that the BGA actually know and accept that.

Prior to the BGA stating that DIs must be done by Bronze holders the situation was that solo pilots were, typically, signed off type-by-type by an instructor or inspector to DI club aircraft and that when becoming members of a syndicate their partners would show them how to rig and DI their glider. As far as I know that system was also satisfactory.

[chrisN]

Jim, Hi. I didn’t mean to agree or disagree with you, just quoting the BGA document for what it’s worth. I was trying to clarify some points for other people posting such as Backpacker. I suspect I agree with you more than not. The bit about BGA sites is a BGA Operational Regulation, which we the gliding community have imposed upon ourselves, not law.

Certainly I was signed off for doing DI long before Bronze, but that was in 1970 and EASA had not been invented, and gliders lay outside the ANO.

I do agree that we rarely had problems with early solo pilots etc. doing DI (and insisting on Bronze + would not eliminate rigging errors – they occasionally happen, and usually to people much more experienced).

Regards - Chris

[cats_five]

Do ring them first to make sure they are flying, otherwise you will have a wasted journey.

[WestWind1950]

as has been mentioned, de-rigging a glider and packing it away in it's trailer to bring home is standard proceedures and nothing special. No reason for concern unless......

http://www.dorrie.de/Flying/images/FunStuff/ruckholerx.jpg

Putting your plane in the hangar, all rigged up, is of course the best option, but there's not always room (though most glider pilots are experts in arranging the planes)....

http://www.dorrie.de/Flying/images/FunStuff/hallex.jpg

:ok:

[chrisN]

There was also the retrieve driver who said “I wasn’t sure which was your trailer and we both have 15 metre gliders, so yours ought to fit into my trailer which I have brought.”

It didn’t.

Chris N

[Mechta]

I was recently told of a car and trailer turning up to retrieve a glider, only to find on opening that the trailer contained a three piece suite...

[JW411]

And the famous RAFGSA Bicester story about the chap who went to retrieve his friend from a field in the north of England. He pulled up into the field, opened the door of the trailer and so discovered that there was already a Skylark 4 in residence!

[SGU-IKE]

First of all, well done to your nephew for showing some concern. Secondly, to offset all the grief that some members have given you, why don't the two of you come along to the Scottish Gliding Centre (just google for the address etc.) and I will give you a guided tour of the place. If the weather is OK, we can go flying - but we'll try not to do any field landings. E-mail me via the forum and we can make some arrangements.

Who knows, we might tempt you to take up gliding.

Ian

[JW411]

Talking of 3-piece suites in a glider trailer; Nick Nichols asked me if he could borrow the Ka-6 trailer to collect a 3-piece suite from east London. Having nothing better to do, I went with him.

On the way back we stopped at one set of traffic lights in London. A very posh Rolls Royce pulled up alongside and down came the electric window (unusual in those days). City gent leans across and says;

"I say old boy, what DO you have in that trailer"?

Without hesitation Nick said "Deep frozen pythons mate" and wound his window back up again.

RR driver looked extremely puzzled.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@sgu-ike: you made the nicest opening post I ever saw from anyone at any internet forum. Congrats! Keep up the good flying, and keep up those high spirits!

[SGU-IKE]

Thanks Jan, my view is simple - we aviators need to stick together and remember that our sport gives different things to different people. Regulation across Europe is going to make it difficult enough for us, without getting grief from the inside. So, my offer is open to anyone who wants to visit us at the Scottish Gliding Centre and, if I am there, we can do the airside tour and if really keen, we might get some flying in too. I am a Basic Instructor at the club, have an NPPL (SLMG) with a share in a Touring Motor Glider (G-BSUO). Oh, and I am the vice chairman of the club too.

Look us up, and drop in - you might get a pleasant surprise.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Those who master the Teutonic language can gather some interesting but sobering facts from http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_030/nn_223532/DE/Publikationen/Flugsicherheitsinformationen/Berichte/V175_20-_20Flugsicherheitsinfo_20-_20Aussenlandung,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/V175%20-%20Flugsicherheitsinfo%20-%20Aussenlandung.pdf
this report from German authorities - as I read it, the danger of landing a glider "out" increases dramatically with altitude, or should one say with the non-flatness of the terrain.

Jeder dritte Unfall ereignete sich in Bayern und Baden Württemberg. Nimmt man die angrenzenden Alpenländer (Österreich, Italien, Frankreich) hinzu, ist es sogar jeder zweite Unfall. Dagegen wurde in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern ebenso wie in Schleswig - Holstein in den vergangenen fünf Jahren jeweils nur ein Außenlandeunfall gemeldet.

One accident out of every three occurred in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg; adding into the account the neighbour mountain-countries even makes this one out of two. OTOH, the northern regions named [[tr.n: which are very flat, and sparsely populated]] each had only one out-landing accident reported.