QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?

[hewlett]

Has anyone heard the breakdown for how many ame and how many lame positions are being made redundant or the wish list up in brisvegas. Are they looking for ame's or lames.

[QF94]

JB is a fine manager but the board made a choice to go with AJ. And they are sticking with it.

QF needs a drastic overhaul and AJ is just the guy to do it. And whether you like it or not, the business community in Oz loves him.
The unions thought they could pull their usual tactics but failed. And now cannot deal with the fact that they are unable to hold QF hostage to get their demands met. Thus the conspiracy theories, the moaning about management, the building at Mascot and whatever else comes to mind.

Shon7, you think AJ is the person to drastically overhaul QANTAS? You're correct in the sense that the share price has halved under his watch, sectors have drastically decreased under his watch and problems have risen sharply under his watch. No dividends paid under his watch, but promises them at last week's AGM, and sacks 500 engineering staff this week. Although it's not AJ calling the shots, as he doesn't have the intelligence to do so. There are bigger people both within and external of QANTAS that are giving the directions. AJ just says "Yes Sirs" and pushes the buttons.

These guys couldn't run the local corner shop let alone an international airline, and their reputation precedes them.


When things are going well the union mentality is "I show up to work so I should get a bonus." When things are not going well they are not willing to sacrifice.

This is the mantra of AJ and the other 11 that occupy the board of QANTAS. The joke going round the traps here is, How do you get the QANTAS management into a small business? Start them off in a big one.

Just to show you are factually wrong, we haven't received a "bonus" in years, with the exception of a few travel vouchers. The bonuses the bogans have received could have upgraded to new aircraft and actually kept routes they're throwing away, in addition to the pay increases they give themselves.

Shon7, crawl back under your rock and fantasise over your poster of AJ. You have enough to worry about after your recent presidential elections. Don't worry about us.

[QF94]

Has anyone heard the breakdown for how many ame and how many lame positions are being made redundant or the wish list up in brisvegas. Are they looking for ame's or lames.

No breakdowns, but "management will support those that need help to make a decision with their prospects". I assume it will be both AME's and LAME's but not the breakdowns of each.

As for the positions in BNE, I can't say on that and how long term that is either. When the 767's go, all that will be left are the "maintenance-free" aircraft in the fleet. So you won't be needed there either.

Like 2005 with the shutdown of HM in SYD, this is just the beginning of stripping numbers in line stations around the country.

[framer]

For people who don't know much about QF Engineering it is a little difficult to work out what's what when it comes to this topic.
It is easy to see that QF management have been doing a poor job of running the airline and have made some questionable decisions on one hand. On the other hand it is easy to see that Australia is a very unionised country, they have a very very high dollar, competition has increased massively in the last decade, the competition has advantages re labour costs etc. It seems obvious also that QF treats it's employees in an antagonistic way.
What I am trying to figure out is whether QF is doing the right thing but executing it poorly, or doing the wrong thing and executing it poorly. I would find it easier if I knew the answer to these questions, can anyone help me out?
1/ what was the aircraft/ LAME ratio prior to these cuts at QF?
2/ what is the aircraft/ LAME ratio after these cuts?
3/ what is Air NZ's aircraft/LAME ratio?
4/ what is EK's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
5/what is Virgin Australia's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
6/ what is Cathay's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
7/ what is Singapore Airlines aircraft/ LAME ratio?

I realise that it's not that simple but If I knew the answer to those questions I would be half a step closer to forming an opinion.....does anyone know?
Framer

[Short_Circuit]

"Planners looking for 18, yes 18, blokes to work o/t tonight, no takers.
Clearly overstaffed alright."

Why would you want to sacrifice your days off to help out the very ones (staff cutting managers) about to stick a red hot poker up ya.

[QF94]

@framer

For people who don't know much about QF Engineering it is a little difficult to work out what's what when it comes to this topic.
It is easy to see that QF management have been doing a poor job of running the airline and have made some questionable decisions on one hand. On the other hand it is easy to see that Australia is a very unionised country, they have a very very high dollar, competition has increased massively in the last decade, the competition has advantages re labour costs etc. It seems obvious also that QF treats it's employees in an antagonistic way.
What I am trying to figure out is whether QF is doing the right thing but executing it poorly, or doing the wrong thing and executing it poorly. I would find it easier if I knew the answer to these questions, can anyone help me out?
1/ what was the aircraft/ LAME ratio prior to these cuts at QF?
2/ what is the aircraft/ LAME ratio after these cuts?
3/ what is Air NZ's aircraft/LAME ratio?
4/ what is EK's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
5/what is Virgin Australia's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
6/ what is Cathay's aircraft/ LAME ratio?
7/ what is Singapore Airlines aircraft/ LAME ratio?

I realise that it's not that simple but If I knew the answer to those questions I would be half a step closer to forming an opinion.....does anyone know?
Framer

I will comment on Sydney, as that's where most of QF's traffic is from and where all its competitors fly, and I am based here.

On a transit at the international terminal, each transit consists of two engineers per aircraft including 747, 767, A330. This can be sometimes 1 LAME and AME or 2 LAME's or 2 AME's with a LAME certifying for the job. This is all dependent on availability of people, sickies, leave, secondments etc. The 737's are a single person transit, with the exception of certain bays that require two people. The A380's require about six people on the transit, and this can consist of about 2 or 3 LAME's. But do not be deluded that these aircraft are maintenance-free. They tend to have their cowls up more than the aging 747's.

These figures can change depending on scheduled extra maintenance during the transit, incoming problems or problems found on a walkaround. Sometimes you need to throw extra people at the aeroplane to get the job done and close to on time.

As Sydney is still considered a home base (not for much longer) more work is expected here.

All the other airlines you mentioned fly here and Sydney is considered a Line Station for them. They don't need as many people here, and more often than not defer defects back to the airline's home base.

NZ has two people per aircraft
EK has no engineers of its own and uses a third party operator.
Virgin uses a third party operator for its 777's
Cathay has a LAME per aircraft but can have as much as 4 people on a transit

Singapore can have about 4 or so on an aircraft, depending on whether it's a 777 or A380.

It is impossible to make a direct comparison on QF's numbers and international operators numbers. Our aircraft are different, our requirements are different and the expectations are different. We have always had to do more in Sydney, because it has always been considered a "Home Base".

To add more about our flights. HNL is going but is always full. We are using 767's against JQ's and Hawaiian's A330's.

LAX is always full and we are using 744's and A380's against United 744's and Delta's 777's.

Johanneburg is always full, although we have the monopoly on the direct flight.

Singapore - Frankfurt is mostly full and we're using 744's to Singapore against SQ's A380's.

Just a few sectors to compare.

QF's management is making the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons.

Hope this clears things up a little for you framer.

[framer]

Thank you for taking the time QF94.
The ratio's that I was after, ie the ratio's that I think would help me decide how reasonable or unreasonable the cuts are, are not so much " turn-around" specific but rather how many LAME's each company has to employ per aircraft. How many are on the books so to speak. The reason this would mean more to me is that it automatically takes into account days off, sick leave, OH&S training courses etc etc. Basically, efficiency.
I know that the figure won't be wholly representative of efficiency. Outsourcing work, the quality of the work, the regulations that are required to be complied with etc etc will be different so I would only expect the numbers to be "similar".
I do appreciate your info though.
Re the sector comparisons, it seems to me that QF made poor decisions about it's fleet some time ago and that is making it even harder to compete.
Thanks again.

[QF22]

Gday guys
I was just watching a clip from ten news where Strambi said that QE still had 4000 excellent engineers left after these cuts?
I seem to recall that when i left 5 years ago there were approx 1700 LAMES at QE? Since then 100s have been cut, so where does Stambi get 4000 from?
Is he including all LAMEs, AMEs, support shops if QE still has any?
A rough estimate of total LAME/AME numbers would be appreciated.
Cheers and Good Luck to all ! Youre gonna need it !

[QF94]

@framer

The ratio's that I was after, ie the ratio's that I think would help me decide how reasonable or unreasonable the cuts are, are not so much " turn-around" specific but rather how many LAME's each company has to employ per aircraft. How many are on the books so to speak. The reason this would mean more to me is that it automatically takes into account days off, sick leave, OH&S training courses etc etc. Basically, efficiency.

Very difficult to say how many LAME's per aircraft are needed. You would need about 8 to 10 per aircraft. This would allow a split of about 6 or 7 mechanical to about 2 or 3 avionics. This, I believe is on the conservative side of things. This would allow for rostering, leave, secondments etc. We now have 18 744's left. Going by my guestimates, you would need a minimum of 144 to 180 LAME's in the company to certify these aircraft alone. That includes all the ports in Australia, hangars, and overseas ports. This simply would not work.

I don't think there will be anyone on this forum who could give an accurate guestimate, but it would be these fugures management love to use to justify their slash and burn across the company.

Then you have types such as A330, A380, 767 and 737 for mainline QANTAS.

[Ka.Boom]

A little research will show that around 30% of Australia's workforce are union members.
Hardly what one would call "highly Unionised" but rather a management myth.

[POT100]

From what I know of QF in terms of its engineers, with the exception of the old Heavy Maint nearly everyone is a LAME..That is regardless of whether you have one categaory ie Elec or Full EIR..With other airlines like EK,CX,BA,SQ etc, an LAE is a position which you have to apply for if one becomes available..its not a given right, ..and that my friends is where the problem lies.
Because there's never been a limited approval for AMEs ie CAT A, which would cover 21 items of Line Maint such as wheels and brakes, transit chks etc,(inspite of that sys being in Europe in the late 90's), the company under the CASA system, have to use a Licensed engineers, which becomes very expensive indeed, especially when some of those LAME's earn over $150k a year for topping up oil and doing a check 1!!...

The current system is not financially sustainable..If QF want to go down the EASA way of doing things ie few LAE's trained on all types, loads of AMEs trained on CAT A, how do they propose on doing it??..
Having worked for QF Eng for a few years, I constantly see wastage and systems which are making our job more and more admin than engineering..
Is it prudent to have LAMEs on $50/hr spend half there working day typing in tech log coupons or constantly towing around aircraft..Can we not get Data entry clerks on 40K a year to do that??..
How much does that cost the company?..And don't even get me started on the Maintenix System!!..
Instead its the poor LAME that has to pay for the grossly ineffiecent way Engineering has been run for years...and still is!!!!

[Bagus]

SIA ,Emirates bought new aircraft ,so why aren't they reducing staff.

[Syd eng]

Wonder if all the regular white ants will snap up the OT now?

[qf 1]

so that's about 1000 engineering staff in the last 6 mths,bloody hell plus the 450 odd back in 2006 at Sydney,wonder how many middle management have come on board in that time,the non value add numbers must be starting to look pretty scary...

[Short_Circuit]

Emirates have heaps of new hangars for a380's and Qf now fly there. What more is there to say..

[pull-up-terrain]

From my knowledge, the reason they are cutting LAME and AME jobs is because there is going to be 7 less 744's next year with no new aircraft replacing them. It isnt because QF is wanting to change the LAME:AME ratio or the amount of LAME's per aircraft, those figures are going to remain the same ("Supposedly", according to the manager i was talking to).

There has been no word about the type of people who are going to lose jobs, but i would be considering my options if you dont have a licence on the A380, A330 or 738.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

After the AGM the one thing I really took away from it was that Joyce and co have now pinned the entire future of any Qantas success entirely on the partnership with Emirates. And it looks like the executive team have also taken to the tie up with open arms as they boozed it up in the Emirates tents during the Spring carnival. (while a lot of our colleagues contemplate the dole queues)

I'm just wondering what Joyce's plan "B" is if Emirates walk away from the deal at the 11th Hour???? :uhoh:

The attitude appears from the execs that they have found the answer to their problems, Lets sit back, watch the Emirates cash roll in and put our feet up.

I think if Emirates have a change of heart towards this tie up we are finished. What other company in the world do you know that would rely solely on it's major competitor to be it's financial saviour for its future??? :ugh::ugh:

[QF94]

@Stalins ugly Brother

I'm just wondering what Joyce's plan "B" is if Emirates walk away from the deal at the 11th Hour???? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

Most probably what the plan has been all along. Let International go under and J* becomes the new international carrier.

The attitude appears from the execs that they have found the answer to their problems, Lets sit back, watch the Emirates cash roll in and put our feet up.

I think if Emirates have a change of heart towards this tie up we are finished. What other company in the world do you know that would rely solely on it's major competitor to be it's financial saviour for its future??? :ugh::ugh:

I really don't believe this management want a saviour. Dixon and Singleton are still waiting in the winds and hoping (if they already don't know) that the deal will fall over, the share price will tumble, and they will come in and buy it for a song, make it private and then tear the heart out of what's left of the Roo.

[ferris]

I'm just wondering what Joyce's plan "B" is if Emirates walk away from the deal at the 11th Hour?? If your big plan is to use the EK network to on-carry your pax all over the place, and your big plan is to sack all your engineers at home and rely on EK engineering, etc. etc. i.e. RELY on EK........ what happens if something external to this arrangement gets in the way? Something like, I don't know, a strike on Iran that closes the airspace for a while...something that festers like that for an extended period...6..12 months?

Don't think it can't happen? This should be good......

[soldier of fortune]

This is just the start!!!
The last round was only pre dinner drinks
This phase is for the loss of the 744 fleet --but why would they cut 15 heads from domestic when it's running on 700 hours per week of OVER TIME.???
Next phase will be when the b738 fleet fully switches over to QGS staff doing R & D etc with the full M.O.D implemented that will cut another 20 staff from syd Dom ops
Domestic syd only has 102 operational staff ie lame/ ame left minus 15 this round will leave 87 minus another 20 in the next phase will leave us with around 65 to 70 give or take a few heads --
When all the remaining 767 s are retired around 2015/16 they will put the knife through Sydney and take another 100 heads from all areas as with the last 744 s gone by 2020 -22 they will cut another 50 plus -- this is just ongoing !!!!
:ugh::ugh:

[Bootstrap1]

We had a briefing from Tobin today, he couldn't elaborate on the breakdown of LAME/AME.

But then the cabin experience manager dropped his bundle with the following numbers, he wasn't sure if he was allowed to but then convinced himself that he was, so here goes

SAM 51 LAMEs 59 AMEs
Cabin 19 LAMEs 40 AMEs
SIT/SDT 29 LAMEs 6 AMEs.

I might be 1 or 2 numbers out, I didn't write them down but they would be very close to the mark.

Apparently SAM(excluding cabbo's) has about 600 operational staff. Of which I reckon 400 are operational and 200 are on secondment in some cushy office job.

[QF94]

@soldier of fortune,

Unfortunately, this isn't just the start. This is about the midway mark, and the clean-up stages of what is the axe going through the place.

This is because of all the obstacles placed in our way over the last few years, to make our job harder and harder, we have always come through. The obstacles were designed to make us fail, but as always, we find a way around their stupidity, so the only way they can make us fail is to retrench hundreds of us at a time.

We have contracts taken off us, we had VR's. Then we had VR's and more contracts taken off us (in that order). Then we retire aircraft and there's VR's. We lose routes and there's VR's and now looks like CR's.

The spiral downwards is just getting tighter and faster.

[soldier of fortune]

A death spiral!!!
Reading the last few pages of this thread makes me want to throw up - I feel sick just thinking about it
I'm looking to the left and right of me and I know some of my close work mates that I've worked side by side with for many years through rain ,hail and shine good times and bad are about to end -
regards to all in SAM /SDO & SIT
hold your heads high boys

[legacy LAME]

10.32 am 8/11/12 text asking me to come in that night for OT

1.33 pm 8/11/12 text from QANTASQE asking me to call up for a phone conference to tell me 30 percent of my area is now redundant

WTF?

[TIMA9X]

10.32 am 8/11/12 text asking me to come in that night for OT

1.33 pm 8/11/12 text from QANTASQE asking me to call up for a phone conference to tell me 30 percent of my area is now redundant

WTF?

sc2h_kA7mfU

[rivet head]

Yes Bootstrap,we were told the same numbers from the same cabo manager at shift changeover tonight, all very open about it and how union delegates were told at meetings earlier in the day.When delegates returned from todays meetings, we were told by them that nothing new had transpired,yet when quizzed about numbers that the manager had told us about at beginning of shift tonight they said that they were told not to mention this to the troops.Gee thanks guys! Whose side are you on! I suppose you can't trust anybody.

[QF94]

I suppose you can't trust anybody.

That's right rivet head. Tell 'em nothing, take 'em nowhere.

When it gets to the pointy end of who goes next, be rest assured each one will be justifying their own existence till there is no more.

[Olivia Howes]

Whose side are you on!

Your AWU Reps are working for you. They can't tell you everything now, that would spoil the surprises we have in store.

[rivet head]

Dear Mrs Howes.Your beloved awu no longer represents myself or quite a few others.Good luck with the blossoming relationship,you deserve it.

[TIMA9X]

Your AWU Reps are working for you.Hmm, these guys in Canberra are certainly not working for you, it appears only for themselves as well.... not exactly about aviation, but a wake up call to us all..
they have completely lost the plot .... their minds on everything else.. as usual..:*

73VPKvyQYSc


.
.

[Cactusjack]

Emirates have heaps of new hangars for a380's and Qf now fly there. What more is there to say..
From my understanding EK is always crying out for skilled people. Can anybody confirm what the pay comparison is to us Aussies, Engineering that is?
Although EK isn't unionised like AUS, I didn't think that the costs would be that much cheaper to have them do the maintenance on the Dugong, if it comes down to that?

Nice post TIMA9X, but disturbing. Why is it that the Wong, Girrard and Nicola aspire to be men by continually sporting men's haircuts? Now I am trying not to be sexist or be a misogynist but all three are complete pigs. A tree stump has more chance of giving me wood. Whatever happened to eye candy in Parliament, you know like Amanda Vanstone and Bronwyn Bishop?
Is there a set criteria for the majority of women in parliament that they must have tuckshop lady arms, dual chins and a face like a smashed crab? Now that the (dare I say) Howes/Wirth relationship is blossoming (and yes I do think she is rather hot for some horrid reason) maybe she will become one of the faceless women in parliament and expand on her political aspirations?

[Beer Baron]

I am trying not to be sexist or be a misogynist
Not trying very hard evidently.

[Cactusjack]

Not trying very hard evidently.
Well politicians are somewhat different are they not?

[TIMA9X]

eye candy in Parliament, you know like Amanda Vanstone and Bronwyn Bishop? chuckle :D
some say.. ...not easy to be a bloke these days, you can't say anything without having a finger pointed at you.. oops, incoming :}

sorry for the diversion..

[AEROMEDIC]

What kind of engineering is going to be left in SYD after this latest round of cuts?

This simply a disgrace!!!

:mad::mad:

[Sunfish]

I will bet my left nut that EK has been cautioned by Qantas NOT to employ former (retrenched) Qantas engineers.

[Collando]

What kind of engineering is going to be left in SYD after this latest round of cuts?

This simply a disgrace!!!


Engineering ? These new aircraft don't need maintenance !

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Am hearing that members from Syd areas are all looking at reversion to 8 hour rosters. Any thoughts or comments about that? If there is enough interest I will run a vote on it. Qantas can't get out of that one, we have already won a court case on it.

[buggerme]

Fed Sec, i for one would be happy to go back to 8 hour shifts, i heard from a planner years ago that they would struggle if that happened, no point in letting the bastards get their own way as we're all going to end up on the scrap heap. What amazes me is why there is no mention of managers getting the arse, common sense means less staff you need less management, oh wait a minute i forgot we work for Qantas!:ugh:

[ampclamp]

8 hours? No way. Once off the 12, 10.9 or whatever the only extended hours roster you'll get is the one they want. If it is 8 hours it will be a sh!tful one dreamed up to make the misery complete. Only saving grace right now is getting predictable days off in a row.

[Nastyswine]

What A great idea count me in, to go to 8 Hrs this will the reduced wages bill, Intern saving jobs & create a cost effective way to maintain the knowledge within the company & also maintain a pool of AMEs/LAMEs for when the next aircraft orders arrive & the work picks up.

This flexibility sounds like a win win for QANTAS, the travelling public & tax payer as they would not be footing the bill for more unemployed.

It would also reduce human factors concerns in regards to fatigue management by reducing impacts on staff circadian rhythms.

Brisbane Heavy is currently on an 8 Hour roster, which seems to create high employment with a manageable cost structure.

Why didn't Q Futures come up with this.

[Arnold E]

8 hours? No way.You could end up with no hours ofcourse, happy with that???
Would seem to me that is the way things are heading, either stay together or you are all doomed!

[legacy LAME]

8 hr roster worked for the Perth guys
I believe the court ruling said that either party could stop
An extended hour roster for "any or no" reason.
If the company could run on an 8hr roster they already
Would be. Fact is they can't.
Another thing to consider is the need to do overtime when the
Company says there are too many engineering staff.
Every day we circumvent the company's unworkable policies and
Make the system work. I think that I will be extremely vigilant and ensure
I follow qantas procedures to the letter. I wouldn't want to not follow procedures
And give the company reason to single me out.
Looks like AJ's bonuses is the real reason we fly

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Only saving grace right now is getting predictable days off in a row.

If something doesn't change, a large number of Engineers will be getting very predictable days off. They will all be in a row.

[ampclamp]

Arnold, fed sec apparently it is a democracy and I wont vote for it. I am allowed an opinion. I will likely lose my job as I am not long term heavily licensed LAME of influence that has been there forever, nor do I spend any time under some manager's desk. I have as much to loose as anyone, probably more because I am not a long termer. While it lasts I want the shift I am on and it is for private reasons so bugger off with lecturing me without knowing my situation.:mad:

[unionist1974]

And you have played a major role in all this SP you should be so proud of what you have achieved!

[MR WOBBLES]

8 hours, I am in anything to stop more knowledge walking out the door, If we don't. By the time they work out what they have done it will be to late.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Democracy it is AMP. Just putting the feelers out there at the request of many members who have contacted me about it. Still think something needs to change.

[ampclamp]

Steve, I am very supportive of you and the work you have done just don't be too quick shooting from the hip please. Respect that we all have different life and family situations.

[MR WOBBLES]

Amp so do the People who are about to be made redundant.

[Dunnocks]

I think it will be the 'long termers' for the high jump.
Word is, they can't /won't go on performance or attendance record.
If they allow 'last on, first off' they'll lose a shed load of 330 LAME's
They want to be shut of 'redundant' licences, so they'll be fighting hard to piss the older blokes off...

[Think Again]

Let's get back to 8, and see how much O/T it will create. :}

[Sunfish]

If you go back to 8 and observe Qantas procedures to the letter, the company will go to FWA, claiming it is unprotected industrial action, and they will order you to cease and desist. You can count on Shortens lapdogs to do that.

The entire " Labor " government is corrupt. The Labor party should have a rule that bars any union official with less than ten years on the tools from standing as a candidate. Without that, they are just champagne socialists after money.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sunfish I agree with every word except. They cannot claim going to an 8 is unprotected action and win. It is a right we have under our EA. They tried to stop is doing it once before in FWA and failed.

[QF94]

Regardless of what shift is agreed on or whatever F Wits Australia have to say, this round of redundancies is just the first hurdle. Once the dust settles on this lot, the next will be fired at us.

It's all very well for those outside of the firing range to cast opinions and aspersions of what should or shouldn't be done, but once the engineering numbers have been dwindled to an amount that makes engineering untenable to keep, they will just shut it down.

Just remember October 2011 when the airline was shut down and there wasn't a thing anyone could do about it. Not even the government, as they were forced to go to F Wits Australia.

To all the "experts" on this forum who think they have the answers, you don't.

It's not just QANTAS, but every job in every industry in this country is stuffed. Why? Because there are those on this forum that say "Australian products or services" just aren't up to scratch to compete with the overseas competitors, and vote to go with them. A lot of people seem to enjoy laying into QANTAS and its employees, but the one true saviour of QANTAS to date is its employees and their dedication to making the company run, regardless of the adversities and obstacles in their way.

Sunfish should remember what I have said from previous posts. We can't make apple pie from crap, but we make the best apple pie tasting crap and serve it with a smile.

I am resigned to the fact that I will eventually be out of a job, if not in this round, it will be one in the future, but I will be damned if I'm going to be scared off, bullied or threatened out of my job. I will continue to do what I do and as I've been doing for many years until I'm given my eviction notice.

[Bagus]

Increased capacity to support growing demand for its line and base maintenance services
*
Singapore, 5 November 2012 – ST Aerospace today broke ground to add a narrow-body aircraft hangar at its Changi facility in Singapore.* The total investment in the hangar and associated equipment amounts to $11m.* The new hangar is expected to be operational by the end of third quarter 2013.

With the new hangar, ST Aerospace will extend its suite of services to support a host of wide-body and narrow-body aircraft at Changi Airport.* At over 3,600 sqm, the new hangar will be able to accommodate two narrow-body aircraft such as the Boeing 737 and Airbus A320, contributing an additional 200,000 man-hours annually.

The capacity expansion is in response to robust demand for ST Aerospace’s line and base maintenance services at Changi, especially from the growing fleet of low-cost carriers which typically operate narrow-body aircraft.*

“Changi Airport is an important air hub with excellent connectivity.* Our new hangar in Changi will enable us to offer better support to our key customers who operate in Changi Airport.* It will also provide us with additional capacity for growth, riding on the back of strong air traffic growth in the Asia Pacific region and the rising trend of maintenance outsourcing.* ST Aerospace remains focused in bringing our suite of value-added services to more customers.”**
************************************************************ ************************************************************ **************************************~ CHANG Cheow Teck, President, ST Aerospace
courses are being conducted on 737 to take any overflow work .

[1me]

It's interesting that with an "excess of Engineers" there has been no concerted effort to attract customer work by the company. Wasn't the whole premise of initially cancelling customer contracts based on the wholesale lack of engineering manpower available?

[QF94]

@1me
It's interesting that with an "excess of Engineers" there has been no concerted effort to attract customer work by the company. Wasn't the whole premise of initially cancelling customer contracts based on the wholesale lack of engineering manpower available?

Not at all. QF management got rid of customer contracts dating back to 2005/06, starting with SQ. This led to 20 engineers getting the flick.

The ball continued to roll with the ridding of customer contracts, and reducing the workforce accordingly. Then in the battle of 2008, when those nasty engineers had a couple of stop work meetings, the remaining contracts were handed back to the customers and told not to come back. QF management would have you believe that the customers wanted certainty and didn't want to be caught up in industrial disputes, so they remained away. The reality is that because of the service we provided, they were requesting to renegotiate their contracts, only to be told no.

Here we are today, with another 204 engineers to go from SYD alone, due to QF management reducing their own fleet and destinations.

You want a "concerted effort" to attract new business? Get rid of the current management and replace with those that actually want to manage and run an airline properly. Not having a shot at you 1me.

[1me]

You want a "concerted effort" to attract new business? Get rid of the current management and replace with those that actually want to manage and run an airline properly. Not having a shot at you 1me.

QF94 I didn't take your reply as such and I wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion! :)

It also doesn't surprise me one iota that the first option the company decided to use was the slash and burn policy.

QE has been in a steady decline through successive administrations, undermined from within and without.

I'm saddened to see the demise of our great heritage and the lives and careers of so many incredible people wrought asunder through the selfish ambition and toxic agenda of so few.

[Mstr Caution]

Qantas | Flying Kangaroo rides the storm (http://www.watoday.com.au/travel/flying-kangaroo-rides-the-storm-20121109-292ye.html)

A quote from the recent article,

"The Qantas brand still has a lot going for it," the report says. However, the report warns that "chinks are starting to show", particularly with perceptions of how the airline treats its employees.

"Qantas' perceived interest in the welfare of its employees always comes into question," it says.

"The low evaluation of the care Qantas extends to its employees [together with the high level of perceptions of the service that those employees are providing] spells warning bells to Qantas in terms of any public relations war when industrial disputes inconvenience passengers and their travel agents."

Perhaps Steve P can provide the media with some quotes from the article seeing it wasn't an "internally conducted" & funded study.

MC

[Bagus]

Passengers have told of a loud bang and flashes of light coming from the engine of an Emirates A380 airliner that was forced to turn back to Sydney Airport shortly after taking off.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Your Chance of Getting the Bullet in SAM/Cabin Services
This is the chance you’ll get the bullet if you work in SAM assuming no one puts their hand up for voluntary redundancy:

Total LAME redundancies Required - 51
Total LAMEs in Business - 266
Percentage Chance of being made redundant - 19.1%

Assuming they want to keep all 330 & 380 LAMES the following applies:
LAMEs without 330/380 in business - 129
Percentage Chance of being made redundant - 39.5%

Total AME redundancies required - 59
Total AMEs in Business - 271
Percentage Chance of being made redundant - 21.7%

If you work in Cabin Services:
Total LAME redundancies Required - 19
Total LAMEs in Business - 62
Percentage Chance of being made redundant - 30.6%

Total AME redundancies Required - 40
Total AMEs in Business - 106
Percentage Chance of being made redundant - 37.7%

Running average total loss of manpower is 30.8%

[the_company_spy]

I don't think anyone is safe bungeye. It makes no difference to them what licences you do or don't hold, they are winding up the business. Everyone in Qe is a dead man walking.

[Captain Gidday]

Jimmy Wilson, head of BHP's iron ore division says:
“We always look at ratios between folk that operate things or maintain things that get operated – those are the folk that actually drive the value in the business, our business,” Mr Wilson said. “The rest of us work for them. So what you don’t want is too many folk that are not part of that direct value addition in the business. So we are focusing on managing that number down."

One, just one, of the problems at Qantas is that senior management see the Company's most valuable resources in terms of "Costs" to be managed downwards, while the dross, for whatever reason, is seen as important. BHP has the right idea.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Unfortunately I believe you're right. You might survive the assasins bullet now but you won't be able to dodge them forever.

[empire4]

Unfortunately aviation is dead, young people better wake up and smell the roses. If you are under 40-35 yo take the payout, go do another trade or uni. Here is a list of reasons to move on.

Introduction of B1, CASA legislation for LAME-less Tarmac, Qantas winding down, Virgin doing heavy maintenance overseas, Virgin so nepotistic you wont even get an interview unless you golf with the boss, Jetstar heading overseas, pay scales making an Aldi shelf packer earn more, staff travel impossible to use, the list goes on.

Trust me when I say you'll not regret it once the move is made.

[Bootstrap1]

The boss of Virgin in Sydney is an ex QF Heavy Maint. LAME. I don't think golf was his sport of choice it was dirtbikes.

As I have said before, John Borghetti offered to take QF engineers that have been given the flick. But he hasn't actually come good on his offer since giving it lip service.

I also heard in passing a LAME talking to a manager asking what is going to happen when SAM fails? The response was rebuild it and take people back on their terms.

[27/09]

I also heard in passing a LAME talking to a manager asking what is going to happen when SAM fails? The response was rebuild it and take people back on their terms.

On whose terms exactly? The companies or the LAMES?

One thing the Manager/Accountant types seem to forget people with qualifications and experience don't just fall out of the trees when they need them.

Anyone worth their salt won't be sitting around waiting waiting for the chance they'll be asked back to their old job. They'll be gone elsewhere and in many cases into an industry where their skills and experience are appreciated and not very likely to want to go back to the old firm. If they come back at all it will be on THEIR (the LAME'S) TERMS.

[King William III]

I also heard in passing a LAME talking to a manager asking what is going to happen when SAM fails? The response was rebuild it and take people back on their terms.

That sounds like a good story nasty stain is using to kid his underwhelming and independant-thought challenged underlings into thinking THEY'LL have a job at the end of this so they stay enthusiastic about culling all.

Pretty dumb if they buy into that one!!

More likely to see Jetstar start 'maintaining' whats left of the QF fleet……

Sad to hear how many around the traps are privately expressing their thoughts it may be time to abandon the Titanic……I fear they may have finally broken our will for QF to survive!

[Syd eng]

The place (SAM) is like a morgue at the moment, sort of feels like when a person is on life support and are now debating on when they turn off the switch.

[Desert Busdriver]

Empire4 has a point but let's not give up the aviation career just yet. Lots of people young and old have gone overseas to carriers like Etihad, Qatar and Emirates etc and have actually enjoyed the opportunity to work there. Unless you want to be the last man standing then give the expat job a chance. I've worked overseas for over 20 years and love it. That's just me though so go and see it for yourself. Can always say "no".

[King William III]

and yet we still get the planes out safely……

testament to the professionalism of the guys these assclowns are screwing over!

On another matter…..
Can I add a option 4 to the last question in the survey?

4) Modern new technology aircraft require LOTS more maintenance…..it's just not SCHEDULED maintenance.

Isn't non-routine maintenance the more expensive type to pay a contractor for…..?

Ah, what would I know…..

[lamem]

The big question is do you run out now with the money or stay in false hope for the future and find out they just wind it up without a payout. Ask the Ansett guys how that feels.
The future is positive. There is no future!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A future will only exist if Nappystain and his sidekick Harris go to the railways. If you want to lose your job, help make their model work.

[33 Disengage]

Don't forget, AJ has a 5 year plan to turn the company around.

1260 something engineering jobs extinguished this year.

4 years to go!!!!

[QF94]

Don't forget, AJ has a 5 year plan to turn the company around.

1260 something engineering jobs extinguished this year.

4 years to go!!!!

Engineers gone in 2!

[aveng]

Empire4 has a point but let's not give up the aviation career just yet. Lots of people young and old have gone overseas to carriers like Etihad, Qatar and Emirates etc and have actually enjoyed the opportunity to work there. Unless you want to be the last man standing then give the expat job a chance. I've worked overseas for over 20 years and love it. That's just me though so go and see it for yourself. Can always say "no".

Thats great for you if your a driver - the money for Eng's in the ME is ****e!
Because they can still get Malays and Indians to do it cheap.

[Gas Bags]

Being able to move with the goal posts is a valuable life skill in this modern era....Hard to swallow at first but makes for a better mental position as forward movement takes place.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

With everything that's going on in SYD they have the hide to hold an open day on 25th of November to quote

"Experience the future of the domestic mainline fleet by taking a tour of the new A330 and a Boeing 737-800 featuring the Boeing Sky Interior. There'll also be presentations and displays from different parts of Qantas Domestic and the Qantas Group, as well as friends of Qantas."

[Captain Gidday]

Qantas has friends?

[pull-up-terrain]

Quote:
Empire4 has a point but let's not give up the aviation career just yet. Lots of people young and old have gone overseas to carriers like Etihad, Qatar and Emirates etc and have actually enjoyed the opportunity to work there. Unless you want to be the last man standing then give the expat job a chance. I've worked overseas for over 20 years and love it. That's just me though so go and see it for yourself. Can always say "no".


Thats great for you if your a driver - the money for Eng's in the ME is
****e!


Because they can still get Malays and Indians to do it cheap. 12th Nov
2012 21:35

I had a look into Emirates (I went to one of there road shows). You have to keep in mind though, you dont pay tax in Dubai, EK pay for accomodation and school/uni for your chhildren. So at the end of the day i worked out that EK pay a LAME with my licences the equilvalent of earning 150k in australia before tax. Which is still less than what i earn currently, but if i do lose my job at QF i wouldnt mind giving it a shot over in Dubai.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas has friends?

Yep, sure do.. many I believe, it just doesn't feel like it lately... too many other things going on... in associated, and non associated industries regarding job security as well.. a lot of Aussie jobs have been outsourced this year alone.. its been the trend for the last few years..

Sometimes it is good to go back and remind ourselves the good stuff many of you do on here everyday.. and do it well.. :ok:

v0RFR89iNc8

[denabol]

Ben has done a comparison of Emirates and Qantas on the Emirates first half results. I reckon it says a lot about where Qantas is going to now.

Instead of flying less, it flew more, instead of charging less for its product, in race-to-the-bottom fare wars, it charged more, instead of laying off staff, it employed more, instead of pruning its network, it added new routes, and instead of cutting back on new airliners, it added more to its all wide-body fleet.

It sounds starkly different to its new approvals pending junior business partner, Qantas We expect you to fly Emirates unless you live in Sydney or Melbourne doesn’t it?


The full story is here and is a day old.

Emirates flies more, charges more, doubles half year profit | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/13/emirates-flies-more-charges-more-doubles-half-year-profit/)

What gets me is that there isn't a word about this in the newspapers.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

20 guys on overtime in SAM last night. Makes you wonder how busy the boys and girls are going to be when over 200 (30%) leave on redundancies next month.

[sky rocket]

Maybe they should read the notice.

This is a hatchet job. I was called by a manager and told about this prior to the announcement. The plan is to cut 30% of the staff and see if the place still runs. If it does, they will cut more Engineers. They will continue to slash Line numbers whilst aircraft are departing on time. I’ve spoken to many members today and what has become apparent is that some members will just make any system work. As a result quality is also starting to decline but for management this seems to be a secondary issue so long as nobody finds out.

[Syd eng]

Unfortunately we are surrounded by those who look after themselves not for the greater good.

The standard OT types will try and save the day, well at least that is what they are saying they are doing it for.

[buggerme]

Agree Syd Eng, They probably think by helping the company out they will avoid the tap on the shoulder, misguided fools the lot of them, they don't seem to realise the company don't care how much you have helped them, if your on the hit list you're gone.

[QF94]

Gotta agree with both Syd eng and buggerme. Those left in the nest will eventually be pushed out. I've seen too many times when those thinking they are saving their own hides, get done over. Loyalty is like the shifting sands in the desert. You can do good by one manager, only to be done over by the next.

Also, we see the individuals that just have to be in the vicinity of a manager whenever the manager pays the section a visit, even though they have nothing to do with what's going on. You tend to slip over the dribble of these individuals. Hence the situation we're in now.

[legacy LAME]

How stupid are these guys in Sydney base!
You have the likes of nasty swine and Clifford hired wholey and solely
To screw you over and they are doing OT to help them do it.

HAVE YOU GOT ROCKS IN YOUR HEADS.?
All you are doing is making it easier for them to shaft you and they would be sitting back in an office somewhere laughing at you guys making it easier for them to do so

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Look around your crews now 'cause
Soon 3 out of every 10 won't be there.
If this cull works nasty swine will only cull more, and that gentlemen is a fact.

Look what he did at NZ.
This is what he was hired to do here.

[One Eye Redundant]

I can't really blame the guys for doing as much OT as they can. If it is Qantas management's agenda to run the place down, they might as well milk the cow for all it's worth. The fact that the place is still functioning is probably a thorn in managements side.
Make hay while the sun shines because it looks like it's getting very dark for Qantas.

[TIMA9X]

Unfortunately we are surrounded by those who look after themselves not for the greater good.
a good description of the guys running the show at present..:(
.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uK4c2k74S7o/UKM-wwxfMTI/AAAAAAAAAVE/BzSMl33kvuc/s1024/01-IFE-screens-combo.jpg?gl=US.

[Dunnocks]

Agree with One eye, might as well suck as much out of the place as you can while it's going...It could be a long time between drinks for a lot of blokes
Flash: Message from Harris: EoI extended to 30 Nov.
26 on o/t tonight!! Good thing we're overstaffed.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Why are people going in on o/t to help this company they want to sack you its not going to save you let them sink .

[King William III]

It's quite simple:

DO overtime - system works - YOU get sacked

DON'T do overtime - system falls over - all the YES MEN get sacked.


Up to YOU!!

[The Green Goblin]

But then if you refuse to do overtime the company will say you are participating in illegal industrial action.

They will win either way.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

If everyone does O/T all you do is make the system work until they get rid of those who fall. By then it's too late
If no one did O/T the system will break, hold items go through the roof and on time departures fall in a heap. Nasty Stein looks like an idiot and they might just realise we're not overstaffed.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Green Goblin.

I don't think I could possibly do overtime at the moment. I'm too stressed worrying about my future. All I'm doing now is taking the advise of the company and looking after myself and spending as much time with my family as I can. That definately means not doing any overtime and staying away from the place that's causing me all that stress.

[rivet head]

Yes I got the same message to come in for o\t tonight 1400-0200(strange start and finish time on a Wednesday).My first thoughts were go and get f****d.Then I thought about all the termites that said yes to the o\t,they can go and get f****d as well.They will be the first ones squealing when the axe falls.

[mahatmacoat]

I went for a session under the employee assist program and was told to relax and forget about work when not there. They made it clear not to work additional hours work in such a stressful time. I am even getting stressed watching others work overtime when they are about to sack so many.

[Bagus]

Maybe if u do o/t ,u might be in the management good books and u will get offered in Brisbane heavy jobs

[QF94]

Maybe if u do o/t ,u might be in the management good books and u will get offered in Brisbane heavy jobs

Not a hope. Apparently management have targetted those on Division 1 Super and those in the 50's bracket.

It also won't matter too much, as after this round, there'll be another culling in March 2013.

[rtv]

I very much doubt you could base retrenchment on purely super group and age . I would say FWA would have a field day with that .

[rtv]

767 busted in Perth tonight DE ringing around to get a crew go fix

[QF94]

@rtv

I very much doubt you could base retrenchment on purely super group and age . I would say FWA would have a field day with that .

That won't be the official line. If it comes down to compulsory redundancies, the company chooses who they want to go.

FWA didn't have much say when AJ shut the airline down last year until they were forced to do so.

[TIMA9X]

FWA didn't have much say when AJ shut the airline down last year until they were forced to do soYeah, I agree... forget the FWA they have failed you, for me, a great example of the Aussie worker being stitched up by government legislation.

FWA is a "fun park" for lawyers, nothing more.

Remember this...


7TpCbLRulKk

/E9gmh5nDkvE

[Sunfish]

Don't for one minute rely on FWA. They side with management.

FWA= **** working Australians

[Ngineer]

Don't for one minute rely on FWA. They side with management.

FWA= **** working Australians

Thats gold!!! Do you mind if I use that one?

[Sunfish]

Be my guest

[TIMA9X]

Qantas buy back announcement includes poor outlook

Qantas has broken some bad, if not infuriating news with its announcement of a buyback of around 4% of its shares this morning.
This is the ASX release about the buy back:
Qantas buy back announcement includes poor outlook for FY13 | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/15/qantas-buy-back-announcement-includes-poor-outlook/)
off in a new direction....

Why do companies buy back their own shares?
The general answer is something called in the industry by the jargon term "capital management". Sounds grand, but what it means in simple terms is this:
If the business has surplus cash it has a choice. It can either invest it in the business, or it can pay it to the shareholders. The return on holding cash will tend to be lower than the rate of return on the main business and than the rate shareholders could invest it elsewhere. So, it makes sense to buy back some shares unless the company has good uses for the cash. The company could also pay a special dividend or it could make a repayment of capital. Usually, tax considerations will drive the decision on the method used. One advantage of buying back the shares is that it increases the earnings per share on the remaining shares. It also means that those shareholders who want out can do so, while others can stay with their entire holding.
There is another reason. The company might be able to borrow money cheaper than the return it pays to the shareholders on the equity, called



Why do companies buy back their own shares? - Ask Colin - Resources (http://www.bwts.com.au/index.cfm/resources/ask-colin/1061-why-do-companies-buy-back-their-own-shares/)



Qantas hopes buyback will help ailing shares (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-hopes-buyback-will-help-ailing-shares-20121115-29dgu.html)

[buggerme]

I know we can't ban o/t, due to it being unprotected industrial action, but surely we could have a word with these guys and put our point across about it not being in our best interest and have some sort of a gentlemens' agreement, or is the smell of money too much for them.

[mahatmacoat]

I have had a word with some of these buggers and some of them get it and some don't. Regardless of what they will do I will lead by example and not help Qantas by giving them extra time.

If they get some order telling me that this is unprotected industrial action I don't care I will just have a good reason every time in fact I think the prospect of losing my job has required me to have a drink or two every night.

[crow17]

Text, OT required today 1000 start. Text, OT required today 1400 start. Text, OT required for nightshift today.

I wish I could go in, but my cat needs his hair washed, and probably a rinse as well.

Crow:

[QF94]

@TIMA9X

I heard the news this morning, and I feel the company is buying its own shares so that it can offload them to a "preferred buyer", namely an equity company with the major shareholders being Dixon and Singleton. They are still hovering around the company, and what better way to push the sale through to privatise the company than to buy its own shares and rid itself of the recalcitrant shareholders that foiled the last sale.

I don't for one second believe that the management of QF is buying the shares back for the long-term benefit of the company or its external shareholders.

The company does have good use for the $3billion on hand. Buy new aircraft instead of refurbishing 20+ year old 767's, and expand the network, or in the least, maintain the network it has and improve its service to those that are still loyal to QANTAS.


There are no doubt many arguments to be had as to who is the most to blame for this. But cutting through all of the fawning apologies that get generated in the general media and from ‘analysts’ the bottom line is that Qantas is appallingly badly managed.

Shareholders who have been burned by the worst chairman and most incompetent CEO ever foisted on Qantas shareholders have nothing to celebrate either from being locked in to a trashed share price, or an incredibly disappointing outlook.

The above is just a snippet from Ben Sandilands article today, of the facts behind QANTAS's demise. Not a bad product or snippy staff. A PREMIUM AIRLINE run down to the status of a discount airline, by a discount airline CEO and mining Chairman.

[Bagus]

The investor,customer,workers,unions,are all sick with this management ,just look at the people running this airline,but nothing is being done,u talk to any shareholders they are sick with qf,u talk to employees they are fad up with this management,public watch the news about qantas all bad news,what is wrong with this board

[600ft-lb]

I read this share buy back as management not understanding why the whole market thinks their farts smell like **** when the management 'team' at Qantas think they smell of roses.

They don't understand that QAN is tarnished with the stain of the current management crop and what they have done decimating, de-investing the actual core business that employs them.

The share price won't rise naturally because no one believes them, of which the market is the best indicator, so they cheat by buying back shares. The cynic in me would think this might have something to do with executive performance plans and share price related bonuses.

[QF94]

what is wrong with this board

They breathe.

[600ft-lb]

1 thing to remember. The board has set goals which have a Short Term Incentive Program effect.

One of those is the

'Execution of the transformation agenda in Maintenance and Catering'

Which in other words means to hurry up and get rid of them.

Even if the place is going to fall apart after 30% of Sydney are gone, that's not the concern. The board has set this direction. There is money riding on it.

[stuntcock]

Qf94 I remember back in 2005 at the SIT when we lost the SQ contract, 20 people made redundant , they picked mostly supervisors & acting DMM's on Division 1 super most of them were mid 50's ,although that was different management back then.

Most didn't want to go,but just about all of them walked away with well over $1 m in super + redundancy payout.
Who knows what's in store this time around

I feel sorry for the younger guys around 30-40 years old,maybe better to ditch a/c engineering and learn new trade

I heard someone say that most of the positions in HM BNE are only AME positions ,so a drop in pay for a LAME to go there.

:suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect::suspe ct::suspect:

[Bagus]

According to HR ther could be opening for LAME position in Bne,not sure how many and how many will apply and what are the criteria

[QF94]

stuntcock,

It may be a different management, but it's still the same agenda. They'll make the offer too good to refuse, and those that were thinking of retiring in five years, may just take the bait and go now, while there's still money in the bank.

Yes, it's a sad state of affairs, and I would certainly hate to be one of the young apprentices just about to come out of their time, or, just out of their time a few years. No hope or future for the young guys, or those in the middle with a single licence, mortgage, kids, etc, etc.

As I've said earlier, it's not just QANTAS. It's the whole workforce, and with an impotent government and business management the way they are, what hope does the workforce stand?

[buggerme]

I personally think it's a numbers game, RP stated that it was his decision and his alone to get rid of 19 lames and 40 ames, if he was given a budget to get rid of, i feel more lames would have their neck on the chopping block also managers still have to run what's left of the business after the dust has died down, so in my opinion they will have a very good idea of how many and what licenced people they require irrespective what age or what division super they are in. I reckon 767 and 747 single licenced lames would be in danger, 747ER may save some but i bet my right testicle that they also look at sickies etc.so they have what they think is enough trained people to keep going until the next round.

[Bagus]

Ford to sacked 200 workers on Friday,
250 at Avalon last Thursday

[Sunfish]

If the idea ofmthe major shareholders is to take the company private, then Bad management is part of the price reduction strategy,

Furthermore, buy backs normally come after a healthy dividend stream.

,,,and the share price should rise 4% after the buy back..

...and if it doesn't the company is now 4% cheaper to acquire.

..and why should the price increase in the absence of a dividend? You can't do a comparison against other forms of investment if there is no return

Sorry, a share buy back makes no sense. if there is money for it, then spend it on dividends.

Shareholders would be dumb to sell.

[QF94]

@buggerme,

RP stated that it was his decision and his alone to get rid of 19 lames and 40 ames

If RP stated that, then AJ is a great CEO. I can't recall ANY manager below the level of Strambi, actually having any say at all. The numbers are given to them, and then they will make a small decision as to who goes. A numbers game it is. The lower the number of employees and skilled workers, the bigger the number of $$$$$ are paid to the big wigs.

Be prepared for another round of staff reductions in March 2013. Then engineering will be unviable to run as it is (internationally anyway) and be wound up, together with heavy cutting of the international routes.

@Sunfish,

If the idea ofmthe major shareholders is to take the company private, then Bad management is part of the price reduction strategy,

Furthermore, buy backs normally come after a healthy dividend stream.

I have been banging on about this management and the road they're driving on for quite a while now. The promise of dividends being paid back to the investor at the last AGM, and now the talk of a buy back of shares, smacks of a private equity sell off at a guaranteed low price for Dixon and Singleton. They're Australian with Australian based companies, so the sale will sail through with flying colours.

[buggerme]

qf94 I probably wasn't very clear in my last post, what i meant that it was his decision on the ratio of lames to ames.

[Romulus]

Sorry, a share buy back makes no sense. if there is money for it, then spend it on dividends.

There are potentially significant tax benefits distributing "surplus" cash via a share buyback.

[magoo31]

Stuntcock

Qf94 I remember back in 2005 at the SIT when we lost the SQ contract, 20 people made redundant , they picked mostly supervisors & acting DMM's on Division 1 super most of them were mid 50's ,although that was different management back then.

Most didn't want to go,but just about all of them walked away with well over $1 m in super + redundancy payout.



In 2005 at SIT the 20 redundancies were actually 100% voluntary (called compulsory). We couldn't get our paperwork in quick enough. The reason a lot of the guys that went were MS and DMM's was most were group 1 and therefore got a very handsome pile of cash. Even a lot of us in group 2 got some nice coin.

I'm pretty sure that the couple of rounds of redundancies in the following years were voluntary.

Pretty sad when so much loyalty, experience and dedication walks out the door by their own choice.

[hadagutfull]

I agree this is only the first wave of cuts.. They say they are playing catch up of fleet retirements. With another 10 or so 744's to be retired by next year and 767's to go with in 3 years , the expansion of MOD, route cuts, growth of Jetstar etc, they are bluffing us...
There are going to be thousands displaced across the company.
Don't think for a moment that if u survive this round that u will dodge the axe next round... Everytime the music stops, there will be 30 percent less chairs..

[Short_Circuit]

Just remember, in 2019 the hangars are bulldozed in sydney, so if base engineering is wiped out there will be no need to pay for expensive new hangars on the shore of Botany Bay. Sydney will just be another line station. A380 A chks done in LA and Dubai A330 in Bne and per? 744ER's gone.
CR criteria, Boeing, over 45, div 1 or 2, bye.....

[Ngineer]

I believe the share buyback is a cheaper means of trying to save face as the board can't afford to pay dividends. This seemed to be a very serious issue at the AGM.

[eshlon]

Re: Overtime in Base Maint.

Sorry if it's already been asked, but where did the wigs pluck their 2% overtime figure from? Have they not been looking at our workloads?

Is all this O/T just a good will gesture, to pump up our bank accounts before xmas, before throwing us on the chopping board.

[Short_Circuit]

Word is, and it would now seem obvious, that nasty swine does not want everyone to know base is gone in 12 months because of the "don't give a ****e" attitude that would spread amongst the remaining dead men walking. The gig is over. Grab what you can and make the best of it. Sorry it has come to this.:{
Ps; new bright paint on H 245 H271, ready for jet* 787 and sdo 737

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I think it more likely that Nappy stain will be gone.

[Short_Circuit]

Nappy stain gone, can't happen fast enough. But it is too late. 30 % of syd eng gone next month. That's probably 50% of Qf engineering this year. It just won't work anymore.
You know it takes 2 years to train a school leaver to be a manager, it takes 10 years for him to be a competent LAME, and that is being generous.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Well we made McDermott look like a complete idiot when he told those above him he would screw us over and drive us into the ground. Look what happened to him. Now a fat controller with the railways.

Let's see if the same can be done with Nappy Stain because he's doing exactly the same thing.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Its over embrace the Reality anyone who thinks the Managers are going is dreaming .

[Redstone]

You have two simple choices, cop it sweet and thank them for it, or go down swinging.
It really is as simple as that. Make the shambles work and you will ALL be made redundant.

[eshlon]

Don't bend over mate. It's what they want. Play a little more hard to get.

[Short_Circuit]

Just heard on the tv that rail crop is dumping hundreds of managers, they must have just woken up to the fact that the Big Mac types from QE and Qfutures who have destroyed their company now as well. You know, the fat controller and friends.
Anyway take care of your safety and those on the crew, don't go above and beyond because you will just be stabbing yourself in the back and the of your mates, managers do not have mates just acquaintances and rivals, poor bastards.

[eshlon]

Shares buy back = $1.28 = fail.

Nice one :ok:

Cascade them apples down the pipeline. Next up, the nearing completion of a $30M glass house. It'll be so cutting edge, I can just feel it.

[Sunfish]

Please try a little to understand the QF management problem.

From my experience in bringing in new allegedly labor saving IT technology to companies, you face a very simple problem: If you have Twenty staff at the start, and the new technology allegedly takes Ten staff, then if you postpone the eventual redundancy to say, Six months after the introduction of your new system guess what happens?

Thats right. The system that was designed to take ten people to work it now takes Twenty people since everyone "burrows in" and subverts the system as they have a vested interest in the system not working as advertised. Furthermore the Three "change coordinators" - consultants that you hired temporarily to install and commision the system and maybe do a little training have "burrowed in" too and are now indespensible to your operation.

So the result is that instead of saving Ten staff you now added Three and there is no way you can make the system work without every effing one of them!!

The management solution prescribed to fix this problem is to fire all but the Ten staff you are supposed to need and tell them to make the new system work- or else. That means, among other things, changing work practices to suit the way the system works, not changing the way the system works to suit your current method of working, which is always disastrously expensive.

Now this system suits consultants and "know nothing" managers. It guarantees you will get something like what was promised in the glossy brochures, but you have no way of improving anything through experience.

This sounds exactly like what is being done to you - with the obvious major problem of the immoveable object of CASA regulation colliding with the infinite force of new technology.

The risk of course is that Qantas will cut too deep, as happened with Ansett, and lose control of the technical agenda, as did Ansett, with the end result of a major incident and a suspended AOC.

There is a better way, but that involves skilled and experienced managers, a consultative workplace style and a very different way of implementing new technology, but that is another subject.

[AEROMEDIC]

Romulus....THAT strategy is too close to tax fraud. It's bending the rules and these days, is quite transparent to the ATO.

[Anulus Filler]

Now this system suits consultants and "know nothing" managers. It guarantees you will get something like what was promised in the glossy brochures, but you have no way of improving anything through experience.

This sounds exactly like what is being done to you - with the obvious major problem of the immoveable object of CASA regulation colliding with the infinite force of new technology.


Yep.... Its called maintenix. Postponed twice already.

[lead weight]

I am amazed that the response for MXI deferral is because Jetstar didn't have their stuff sorted?!?

[Romulus]

Romulus....THAT strategy is too close to tax fraud. It's bending the rules and these days, is quite transparent to the ATO.

Um, it's using the rules in the manner for which they are intended.

Share buybacks when properly undertaken represent a return of capital as opposed to a dividend. The ATO gets narky if they believe it is actually a pseudo dividend but where a company treats all shareholders equally (the crux of the matter in many ways) then it i tax effective, particualrly for lower tax bracket shareholders.

[AEROMEDIC]

I agree with the principle of share buy back and what it does, however, in this case, there was a company loss, not a profit. Cash reserves, in Qantas's case were meant for new aircraft, infrastructure improvement and the like, but not a buy back.
Buy backs are good policy when a company has billions in profits not returned to shareholders by dividends e.g. CSL and Rio Tinto, and no viable opportunities for adding businesses to their portfolio.
As to the shareholders, they would have been better served with a fully franked dividend paid from the reserves that this ill considered buy back is financing.
The plan to retire some debt early has merit, but I would think the need to retire some aircraft early would be better.
Bending the rules or not, a buy back is still dumb.

[emal140]

The share buy back is simple maths. If total company capital is say $100M, and there are 100M shares in total for that company. That is $1 per share. If the company buys back 50M shares from shareholders, that is now a company still worth $100M, but the share price is now worth $2 per share (the capital is the same, but the number of total shares has halved). So, a share buy back will immediately lift the share price,as less shares on the market. Same happens in reverse, allot an additional 50M shares t o the original 100M and the share price will now drop from $1 per share to $0.66c per share. The total company capital is the same but is now spread over 150M shares which equates to $0.66cents/share.
Basic maths..... Easy for the board to increase share price with little or no action.

E

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Give it a week (or less) and the shares will be back lower than when the announcemnt was made.

[AEROMEDIC]

The market sentiment and perceived value drives the share price up and down. The intrinsic value gets lost in the confusion of national and international events.
Airlines are fragile and vulnerable businesses that operate on the edge and it take the combined effort of management and employees. Estrange one of these and the business is doomed.

" You can't build long term value for the shareholders unless you build long term value for the employees" Howard Shultz, Chairman of Starbucks Coffee Company.

A lesson unlearnt by the current board of Qantas.

[moa999]

emal40,
Your math is incorrect.
The Enterprise Value of the company stays constant, not the Market Cap
(EV= Market Cap + Debt)

In your example the company Had MCap of $100m and lets say Debt of $100m. So EV is $200m)
To do the buyback debt goes up and market cap goes down.

Where this benefits Qantas is more in signalling it is undervalued -- expects to return more in dividends in the future from those shares versus return from investing in aircraft/other business

And more importantly puts paid to any hedge funds who had shorted Qantas hoping for an equity raise... those guys will be screaming blue murder.

The buyback is being funded from the Startrack sale/Boeing payment, not from the FY12 loss

[TIMA9X]

The market sentiment and perceived value drives the share price up and down. The intrinsic value gets lost in the confusion of national and international events. I agree, the events in Israel yesterday is a good example, punters may prefer to fly via Singapore to Europe rather than Dubai.

and a interesting view today in the mainstream press..

The forecast by Joyce for the current half to December includes a payment of about $135 million from Boeing. Qantas was upfront about this, but if one is to get a true gauge of performance it should really be backed out.
To do so would leave Qantas with a more meagre performance for the current half, of $30 million to $80 million.
In the previous corresponding period (the first half of financial year 2012) the company made $202 million.
But that was after taking into account $194 million of losses associated with the industrial relations action and the grounding of the fleet. Without that anchor, Qantas would have made closer to $400 million profit.
Thus if one strips out all these factors and takes the earnings back to the bare bones, the 2013 financial year is not shaping up to be a good one.

Read more: Joyce sees Qantas at the point of solid returns (http://www.smh.com.au/business/joyce-sees-qantas-at-the-point-of-solid-returns-20121115-29era.html#ixzz2CIbKCVQ0)

[plasticmerc]

Am I the only one who is thinking evil thoughts?
The whole reason for the buy back is that they need more for the exec teams bonuses. Maybe they ran out of shares to divy up and had no choice but to buy some back?!?!
All the best guys and girls.

[SOPS]

EK has just bumped the A380 order up to 120. AJ hopes to have an "Inernational Division"..of what 10 aircraft?? Say what you like, but (up to now) when TC and EK says we are going to do it, they do it...so 120 A380s here they come...QF is sadly.....

[Fris B. Fairing]

Happy Birthday Qantas.

The question is; how many more?

[TIMA9X]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6g5c0QoZSeQ/UKWHqXx33UI/AAAAAAAAAVw/yu7zJLywtwA/s868/01-Qantas-comment.JPG?gl=US

Interesting comment in the press today...

[Bootstrap1]

And another text more night shift OT in base maintenance tonight.

Seriously, no OT for months and now its unstoppable. What is going on Mrs Tobin?

I remember a few years back when an EBA was in full swing for the AMEs and the sheeties refused OT. Everyday the foreman and manager and HR would call each crew member into the foremans office one by one, ask them if they could do OT, when the answer was no they were stood down and marched off the base until their next shift. They were dark days.

[Redstone]

Not going to happen.
Spend your days off re skilling and rewriting the resume. We are all going to need it.

[Bagus]

Whole of qantas engineering are concentrating on redundancy rather than working on aircraft,guys are scrambling where is it safe to go,Bne,Perth,Avalon,Adl,or leave the industry all together.Apprentices are also looking to get into some other trade as the negative feedback from their peers,whole of quality and safety of aircraft is out of door rather than concentrating on work concentrate on package.What a disaster from these management,they have forgotten human factor training

READ THIS
The Accident Causation Model (or "Swiss Cheese Model") is a theoretical model that illustrates how accidents occur in organisations. The model focuses on both organisational hierarchy and human error. It postulates that the typical accident occurs because several (human) errors have occurred at all levels in the organisational hierarchy in a way that made such accident inavoidable. For example, decision makers may have made ill decisions, line management may have pushed for faster turnarounds (line management deficiencies),employees pressured to cope with a stressful climate, an unsafe culture and uncertainty

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I wonder if they did a risk assessment on the dangers of this latest change?

What do you think would be worse -

To be stood down for a day or made redundant for life?

[extralite]

Flew business class bris Singapore last week. Very good experience all the way through. Really is a case of a good staff let down by incredibly bad management. Hope they hang in there.

[Ngineer]

I am hearing whispers that alot of Engineers have been underpaid on their shift penalties for a few years. If this is true, are they trying to cut them loose before this comes out into the open?

[Ka.Boom]

Share buybacks have the effect of pushing share prices up.
In so doing the company becomes less attractive to marauders.
In the Fin Review this week Tim Clarke spoke with disdain about the APA takeover bid and the people involved.
Maybe he was behind the share buyback idea?

[Alien Role]

If you are requested to do overtime and you advise that you are fatigued and you don't consider that you could carry out your overtime duties COMPETENTLY and SAFELY, because of that fatigue, are they going to take punative action against you ??

Role on.....

[the_company_spy]

More lambs in on o/t again tonite Sydney base, hopefully they will be able to get a few aircraft out on time.

[going postal]

Some idiots just don't get. Let the system fall on its own sword and the managers accountable pay

[QF94]

@ going postal

Some idiots just don't get. Let the system fall on its own sword and the managers accountable pay

The system has fallen over, and the only ones paying for this are us engineers. There will be no accountable managers for this stuff-up.

At first I wasn't in support of doing O/T, but then I thought stuff it, why stand by and watch the place fall in a heap. Might as well get some cash before I get the boot, not to say that I'm gonna make the system work any better than it is already, just get paid better for doing it!

[Ngineer]

Overtimers? OVERTIMERS? Mate they are way down on the list of fellow employees that have destroyed our job prospects over the last couple of years, in fact they don't even rate a mention on mine compared to some other feats of pure idiocy. Try and keep things in perspective. Too little too late mate.

[mahatmacoat]

Too little too late are you kidding!!! This is round 2 of 10 so are you going to let them sack 200 and then work overtime to save the Managers? If you do they will cut deeper. Overtime is killing us. Don't come in on my crew and if you try don't sit near me.

[Ngineer]

Mahatma, I doubt you even understood a word I said, never said OT was my cup of tea, or are you trying to troll for bait? And I could find better company to sit with bud.

If you think overtimers are the only people doing you no favours then sit happy in your own ignorance (IMHO).

[mahatmacoat]

I understand this

Too little too late mate.

Sounds like you have given up. Just leave then. Don't ruin what the rest of us are willing to fight for. I don't want anyone around who wants to save Managment by working a stack of hours.

[Redstone]

Don't get angry at each other, we are all but simple engineers.
As the great man said, the meek shall inherit the earth. The love of money is the root of all evil, the last eba the the most evil of all time, more than we even asked for. Ask yourself, why throw so much at the wretched? There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Look after each other and watch your brothers back.

[QF94]

@ mahatmacoat

This is round 2 of 10 so are you going to let them sack 200 and then work overtime to save the Managers? If you do they will cut deeper. Overtime is killing us. Don't come in on my crew and if you try don't sit near me.

Understand this. No one is letting management sack 200, just that no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA, AWU or any other by-standing union. If you haven't got the message yet, management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory. No consultation is going to stop that.

Overtime is not saving any managers. What has let everyone down over the years, not just now, were the self-serving that took the bait for going on outstation postings, not claiming their entitlements, so they could get more travelling engineer jobs, or those that wanted to do a certain "elevated" position, and were given it if they bent the company's way. This has been, to use a certain term used by Tony Sheldon, a slow bake by the company on us, and many engineers allowed it to happen.

Engineering is cut so deep, there's not much left to cut. How many fought when SYD HM was shut down in 2005? Who helped those guys. Who helped S.I.T. when wave after wave of redundancies took place due to "loss of foreign operator contracts? Who helped to stop MEL HM being shut down this year? How many engineers would have signed a new contract to be let in back to work last year after AJ shut the company down, had it got to the stage you lost a week's pay or so?

Mahatmar, if I decide to come on to your crew to do some O/T, I will, and don't worry, I wouldn't want to sit next to you, the stench may make me dry reach.

[genxfrog]

QF94 you are spot on with some of your analysis. We are to blame for many of the problems we now face. As I was once told by someone who taught me when I was an Apprentice " the company will get away with whatever you let them get away with". I've worked with countless morons who wouldn't be prepared to do anything to support someone else or defend our Industry for us and future generations.
A culture of "I'm alright Jack....f#@! you" has now come back to bite us all on the arse and even know when death is at the Hangar doors, these same morons just ramp up that same attitude. I hope you give yourselves a pat on the back when it's all done and dusted and you explain to your kids how you helped destroy any prospect for them to ever work in this Industry when it no longer exists. :D

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Understand this. No one is letting management sack 200, just that no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA, AWU or any other by-standing union. If you haven't got the message yet, management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory. No consultation is going to stop that.


No one is letting management sack 200 - Agree
AWU can't stop them - Agree
management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory - Agree
No consultation is going to stop that - Agree
no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA - I don't agree here.

We can stop them and you can help. We aren't going to talk our way out of it via consulatation but Qantas are breaking every rule under the aviation sun to force in unsafe change. From discussions with CASA, MOD is only a few steps away from being put on the scrap heap. This will reverse numbers the other way. HM Mel may have been shut but again, CASA are a poofteenth from ordering Qantas to shut down a line in Bne unless they hire more staff.

CN is destroying the business and making mistakes on the way. The lapdogs are being told what to do by people with no Engineering exprience and leaving a trail of evidence a mile wide. Please help gather the evidence and send it to us.

CN can only destroy Qantas Engineering while he is still there. He only stays if he keeps them compliant and planes are getting out on time. With the changes he has made (and wants to make), this only happens if people bend the rules.

Don't give up the fight guys. This battle is a long way from over either way.

[The masked goatrider]

Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.

They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.

Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.

[engine overspeed]

Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.

[Short_Circuit]

Who would want to be a manpower planner at SYD Base now, the crew structures have fallen apart and unworkable due to lack of manpower and VR and MtX is yet to come!!!

[1me]

The whole O/T thing has me a little annoyed too. I personally won't be engaging in it because I don't believe that in this current climate when so many jobs are at stake that it is sensible to.

I have had discussions with people who have no qualms about doing O/T and they put forward some valid points supporting their stance, however, I just can't act in the same way that they do. Perhaps a moral stance is out of line..

The very fact that for months O/T has been almost non-existent and since the announcement it has been a virtual open slather should be be speaking volumes. It looks very much to me as though the company intends to clear as much work as it can prior to culling, and all our O/T sculling colleagues are doing is helping to accelerate this process. Well done guys! :D

[King William III]

I actually think they are clearing all the work so they can have a 'successful' roll out of mxi to the 74/76 fleet……
ie, bugger all work so less chance of grounding the whole fleet!

of course, this will all be happening right about when 200 people are being escorted by the yes-men to the gates…….


Sheer genius!!


Say No to Nappystains - Say No to OT

[Workers Perspective]

It seems that there are many paradoxes currently in the SAM business.

Employees are being told that there is not enough work to justify their employment and yet the overtime requests are still coming through thick and fast.

Employees are told that new gen aircraft are technologically advanced and require less maintenance but the reality is the A380 bucket is overflowing, and the aircraft are not fixing themselves.*

Employee feedback meetings are being held weekly by the management and yet no believable answers or strategies are being presented.

There are two main components that drive the efficiencies on the shop floor.

First is the can do attitude of the Qantas engineer.*
Second is the 12 hour roster.

The can do attitude and dedication of the Qantas engineer is the single most effective tool that enables the efficiencies on the floor.*
This quality is something that cannot be measured by any accounting model and is an enigma to the management types as they have no direct control over it.

The 12 hour roster was adopted by the management and worker alike and has served both parties well.
However it appears that it also has created a corrupted labour hours data set that is now working against the engineers.

SAM is a supply / demand business.*
Aircraft numbers go down, there is a need to reduce the manpower.
To test the supply vs labour paradigm that is being used for the need to reduce the workforce, a reversion to an 8 hour roster will provide a much needed "resetting of the clock".

Engineers know the importance of working with accurate data.
It is therefore imperative that they provide an accurate data set to the management in order for them to crunch their numbers.
The idea is to give Chris Nassensteins' strategy team a more realistic perspective as to what labour hours are required, which will hopefully provide a more measured response to the impending redundant positions.

An 8 hour roster will capture those lost hours everyone is looking for.

[QF94]

@ ALAEA Fed Sec

no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA - I don't agree here.

We can stop them and you can help. We aren't going to talk our way out of it via consulatation but Qantas are breaking every rule under the aviation sun to force in unsafe change. From discussions with CASA, MOD is only a few steps away from being put on the scrap heap. This will reverse numbers the other way. HM Mel may have been shut but again, CASA are a poofteenth from ordering Qantas to shut down a line in Bne unless they hire more staff.

Regarding the hiring of more staff for a line in BNE. This would more than likely come from those that don't want to be shown the door just yet, and accept a relocation to that port. With MOD heading for the scrapheap, we'll just wait and see. As for the numbers, as each 747 leaves our shores to not return, this will build up numbers should MOD fail. Less aircraft means less engineers required, but may transfer to going back to pre-MOD days.


CN is destroying the business and making mistakes on the way. The lapdogs are being told what to do by people with no Engineering exprience and leaving a trail of evidence a mile wide. Please help gather the evidence and send it to us.

If this evidence is so wide, why aren't CASA doing something about it? Being a poofteenth away from ordering anything, is just as good as "keeping an eye on it" until it fails, and then say "I told you so".

CN can only destroy Qantas Engineering while he is still there. He only stays if he keeps them compliant and planes are getting out on time. With the changes he has made (and wants to make), this only happens if people bend the rules.

Don't give up the fight guys. This battle is a long way from over either way.

Not sticking up for CN, but hasn't engineering been eroded and destroyed by D Cox and M Harris before the current regime? Cox shut down HM SYD. CN shut down HM MEL. Same game, different players. As for the S.I.T. redundancies, there has been redundancies under every manager since 2003.

@ engine overspeed
Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.

In my nearly 30 years in the aviation game, I am not doing anything different now than when I started. I was apprenticed to fix aircraft and still do. I don't do O/T for the benefit of the company. I don't make something work that shouldn't work and I don't stop something from working that should be working.

I have always done O/T, but not with scheduled regularity. My lifestyle doesn't depend on O/T, but I will do it when a large bill is in, Christmas, car repairs, etc.

Engine O/S, whether you believe I'm an old Jack or current hypocrite is of no relevance to me whatsoever and has no bearing on what I do or don't do. Just keep babbling.

For all of those that believe that cutting the O/T and working to schedule and holding everything up is going to save jobs, dream on.

Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end? If you cut off your nose to spite your face and ban O/T that is your problem.

Despite what has been said or not yet said, jobs are going both now and in the future, O/T or no O/T. We can fight all we want, but the end result will be the same. Out the door and on the dole queue.

Is it defeatist? Not in the slightest. Just looking ahead as the door hits us all in the rear end as we're escorted out.

[QF94]

@ The masked goatrider

Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.

They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.

Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.

Consider this. When aircraft aren't getting done and being asked where are they? You know what the answer will be? F***ing engineers and their O/T ban. They're costing the company money and driving our passengers away. This is what will be told to the disgruntled and overly delayed passengers in the terminal. This will make the news, and we know how the media love to give it to QANTAS and we all know what the spin from Coward St Mascot will be. "Engineers have taken unprotected industrial action in the form of O/T bans due to upcoming redundancies, blah, blah, blah".

Just remember, we don't have the upper hand. Never forget Ocotber 29 2011, the day QANTAS was shut down after nearly 91 years of continual service. The unions and the government could do nothing to stop it then, and can't stop the redundancies now.

[1me]

Consider this. When aircraft aren't getting done and being asked where are they? You know what the answer will be? F***ing engineers and their O/T ban. They're costing the company money and driving our passengers away. This is what will be told to the disgruntled and overly delayed passengers in the terminal. This will make the news, and we know how the media love to give it to QANTAS and we all know what the spin from Coward St Mascot will be. "Engineers have taken unprotected industrial action in the form of O/T bans due to upcoming redundancies, blah, blah, blah".



Which O/T ban are you referring to QF94? There is no ban as far as I am aware.. The company cannot force an employee to work O/T. I, myself, have kids to look after and other family committments that currently preclude me from engaging in work outside my normal roster. I'm sure there are many others who are in the same boat or are unable to make themselves available for other genuine reasons. If you are able to take up the slack on behalf of your SAM brothers then good for you!

[Bagus]

QF engineering is in damage control,whole of aircraft engineering guys all over the world is talking about what the management is doing to their staff,not good for the airline,Tim of emirates said he agree what AJ has done in QF but he dare not do it in EK ,they would have sacked him maybe he can sack the indians and Bangladeshi over there try sacking the locals.

[Clipped]

Too little too late are you kidding!!! This is round 2 of 10

I have to agree with M.

Nasty, Lowy and Harass promised Cliffy and Joyci that they will cull QE. It is a pure numbers game to achieve an industrial agenda and aircraft maintenance, secondary.

QFuture.

[unhappy worker]

Overtime has been growing steadily for some time now not because they are trying to clear the books but because they need to clear the work. Try and get anything defered, it takes an act of god!
Work is stacking up and while they may clear the number of engineers it won't make any difference to the amount of work growing. They can move the work offshore but the engineering cost will still skyrocket because now there is no-one to oversee what we are being ripped off for and the work still has to be done.
I am resigned to the fact that QF engineering will die in Sydney, it will still have to be done here but not by QF, and not to the world class standard we set.

[AEROMEDIC]

Engineers have to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. It 's in the agreement.
The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.
This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.

[QF94]

@ 1me

Which O/T ban are you referring to QF94? There is no ban as far as I am aware.. The company cannot force an employee to work O/T. I, myself, have kids to look after and other family committments that currently preclude me from engaging in work outside my normal roster. I'm sure there are many others who are in the same boat or are unable to make themselves available for other genuine reasons. If you are able to take up the slack on behalf of your SAM brothers then good for you!

I never said there was an O/T ban, but that is how it will be perceived. Particularly those that have had O/T on a regular basis, or always made themselves available, and all of a sudden they're not able to make it for what ever reasons. I know the company cannot force you to do O/T, nor should they. What you do with your time outside your normal roster is no one's business other than your own, and you do with it as you wish.

Just referring to a few here that are banning or refusing to do O/T or smear those that wish to do it and some of what people had to say about it. Their words, not mine.

Each one to their own. Just as those that have their reasons for not doing O/T, should not be pushing their views onto others that wish to do O/T.

@ mahamacoat
Too little too late are you kidding!!! This is round 2 of 10 so are you going to let them sack 200 and then work overtime to save the Managers? If you do they will cut deeper. Overtime is killing us. Don't come in on my crew and if you try don't sit near me.

I understand this


Quote:
Too little too late mate.
Sounds like you have given up. Just leave then. Don't ruin what the rest of us are willing to fight for. I don't want anyone around who wants to save Managment by working a stack of hours.

@ The masked goatrider
Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.

They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.

Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.

@ engine overspeed
Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.

@ 1me
The whole O/T thing has me a little annoyed too. I personally won't be engaging in it because I don't believe that in this current climate when so many jobs are at stake that it is sensible to.

[QF94]

@ aeromedic

Engineers have to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. It 's in the agreement.

The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.

This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.

Agreed.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Each one to their own.

This says it all. Unions are about standing together. In case you weren't aware

Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end?

this battle is still raging. Be nice if you were on our side. You could start by ending your pessimism on here.

[QF94]

Quote:
Each one to their own. This says it all. Unions are about standing together. In case you weren't aware


Quote:
Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end?
this battle is still raging. Be nice if you were on our side. You could start by ending your pessimism on here.

With all due respect Steve, is there a standing order or direction stopping O/T at this stage? If so I must have missed it. As I have said in earlier posts, I don't regularly schedule O/T but I will do it at times such as Christmas, coming up, and at other times as the desire arises.

I am on our side of the fence and would like to see an end to the current reigme in control of QANTAS, but unless there is some power that can remove them, they will achieve their end. I won't be holding my breath for CASA or the government to do anything, as they are impotent bodies when it comes to corporations like QANTAS.

Pessimism? Seeing the history of QANTAS being wound up over the last few years doesn't bode well for what the future holds. We are at best, about 50% of what we were just seven years ago. Just stating the facts.

No one has to agree with what I've got to say, but that's my view, just like everyone else has one and expresses it.

[Jethro Gibbs]

battle is still raging


And the workers are the ones taking heavy Casualties .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We are at best, about 50% of what we were just seven years ago. Just stating the facts.



2005 - 1850 Qantas LAMEs
2012 - 1500 Qantas LAMEs

It's not all that bad. If you have to, get angry, not negative.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

And the workers are the ones taking heavy Casualties .


Would you rather just cop it in the neck. MOD would have been in 10 years ago if the Domestic LAMEs didn't stand as one. By now most of us would not have a job.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Would you rather just cop it in the neck

We are not much can be done though by anyone we cant take any action look at Avalon workers never took any action ever yet soon over 360 will be gone and maybe everyone gone soon.
And do not see anyway of it being stopped .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Avalon workers gave up their right to take Industrial Action when they signed up to a new EBA one year early. The ALAEA advised Forstaff Employees not to, the AWU and management promoted a yes vote. The workers signed their death warrants by accepting that Agreement. We made it clear at the time.

It may be stopped, at least for a while if CASA intervene in Bne. Looks like they don't have enough staff and work may need to be moved.

[Dunnocks]

Steve,
Is this the reason they're so keen to get 100 AME's up to BNE HY from SYD?
There has been talk from Mgmnt about a 'major announcement' in relation to BNE.

[QF94]

Quote:
We are at best, about 50% of what we were just seven years ago. Just stating the facts.
2005 - 1850 Qantas LAMEs
2012 - 1500 Qantas LAMEs

It's not all that bad. If you have to, get angry, not negative.

Not just talking about LAME's here Steve, but engineering as a whole!!

HM SYD - GONE
HM MEL - GONE
AVV - GOING
SIT - DECIMATED AND SHRINKING
SDT - DECIMATED AND SHRINKING
SYD BASE - DECIMATED AND AND GOING

You're saying "It's not all that bad." I normally have a lot of regard for what you have to say, but now I am angry at what you have said. This is not the smartest thing you have said here on this forum. Show me where the negativity is in the above facts!

YES!! IT IS ALL THAT BAD!! To add to your figures above, 2013 will be about 1350 LAME's once this cull is taken into account!! What are the numbers going to be in 2014 and beyond??

[QF94]

It may be stopped, at least for a while if CASA intervene in Bne. Looks like they don't have enough staff and work may need to be moved.

Philippines or Singapore look like the go. Wouldn't be the first time work has been moved.

[Dunnocks]

Hmm, QF94, have a read of the QEPM chapter about Cat A's and tell me what effect that will have when they start to filter through.
Yet more LAME's gone.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Is this the reason they're so keen to get 100 AME's up to BNE HY from SYD?


Yep may be. I just hope they don't shut a line in Bne to send the work overseas. It should go to Avv.


What are the numbers going to be in 2014 and beyond??

Pretty low if we take this approach

Each one to their own.

[QF94]

Hmm, QF94, have a read of the QEPM chapter about Cat A's and tell me what effect that will have when they start to filter through.
Yet more LAME's gone.

Yes Dunnocks, like I have been saying all along. The downward spiral is tightening and spinning faster. As I have also said, it's not just about the LAME's, but engineering as a whole! The way management would love it is to have ramp look after the whole of transits, and have the aircraft serviced O/S.

I am in no way blind to the fact that the end game is LAMEless tarmacs, as has been talked about going back to the Deahm days. Those days are almost upon us.

[Joe A350]

ALAEA fed Sec

I know I would be hanged for suggesting this, but don't you all in bexley think its time to offer Qantas a new EBA in line with industry standards in pay, super and entitlements?

I would love to be on the higher end of the LAME scale with bolt on payments but we are pricing Qantas LAMEs out of the business. This is my suggestion to improving cost savings for the airline and possibly saving the lives and jobs of hundreds.

Regards.

[QF94]

Quote:
What are the numbers going to be in 2014 and beyond?? Pretty low if we take this approach


Quote:
Each one to their own.
I guess "It's not all that bad" then is it?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I am in no way blind to the fact that the end game is LAMEless tarmacs, as has been talked about going back to the Deahm days. Those days are almost upon us.


At least we can all agree on this.

It is all that bad if we just stand by and let it happen.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Yep may be. I just hope they don't shut a line in Bne to send the work overseas.
It should go to Avv.

AVV Forstaff Trades are in Brisbane helping them out now .

[QF94]

It is all that bad if we just stand by and let it happen.

How do you propose to stop this? 204 out of SYD operations for now.

More aircraft to be retired. This is no secret. Less aircraft mean less requirement for LAME's and engineers in general.

Certainly no need for a Base Maintenance when you don't have the number of aircraft to justify the facility.

I'll just step out of Engineering for a minute. There's also proposed reduction of International destinations, which require less aircraft, requiring less pilots, cabin crew, catering, cleaning, check-in and so on.

Back into engineering now. The reduction can't be stopped, no matter what is said or done. We aren't just standing by and letting it happen. It is happening and no one can do anything about it except bleat about standing together. We will be standing together at the dole queue regardless of what we do or don't do. Pessimistic, defeatist, call it what you will.

Doing O/T for a few extra $$$ is no crime, and has always been a part of QANTAS culture. Now all of a sudden, it's been banished into the wilderness and is taboo, because it is seen as helping the company.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

How do you propose to stop this? 204 out of SYD operations for now.

I'll start by ending this debate now.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Jethro said.....
AVV Forstaff Trades are in Brisbane helping them out now .

2 Painters.

Where's the sparkies we have requested?

[1me]

Hey guys lets play the ball and not the man. If we're at each other's throats then we're definitely making it easier for the company!

QF94, normally I wouldn't have an issue with people doing O/T. I have also done O/T when I needed a little extra cash for something. No problems there. I am just not convinced that it is the right thing to be doing currently!

We are being forced to deal with a bloody minded management group hellbent on destroying what our engineering brothers have spent their lives building!

Emotions are running high on both sides of this O/T debate and I guess that is to be expected but I would rather err on the side of caution.

The fact is that very soon a whole lot of us won't be there anymore, but if we're going to go down then I'd rather go down fighting as a unified force than slide silently into oblivion. Just my thoughts.. your's may differ.

[Sunfish]

Folks, from a management perspective, this is about power!.

The Board and senior management cannot stand the current reality that a " little person" an engineer, can stop the company from flying an A380 by refusing to sign a fcuking piece of paper saying it is airworthy. I know you don't do that, but the mere possibility that the narcissistic management is not totally omnipotent in this regard makes them howl, froth at the mouth, roll on the ground and chew the carpet. I cannot overemphasize this.

The aircraft is towed into a hangar, the tyres are pumped up, the oil and filter is changed, and then the thing had better come out and fly. They don't give a fcuk if there are dead apprentices stuck in the retracted flaps, make that fcuking thing fly and be quick about it! You are regarded unfortunately as a necessary evil, to be ignored, starved and minimized, you are the boiler room stokers in the good ship Qantas, never to be seen or heard - the modern day black gang.

Your previous union management tried to hide this from you - the kept appealing to your " professionalism", as did the company. Now that thanks to SP you have grown some balls, you get to see the company in all it's nastiness. They wish to exterminate you, not because they don't need someone to change the oil, but because they cannot stand the thought that the little man in overalls has any power at all.

Management would do the same to pilots too, if they could, but the general public flies with them, sees them and demands that they be autonomous and professional. However the general public don't see the black gang, except for the bloke in overalls doing something incomprehensible under the aircraft. The only way that would ever change, in my fantasy, was if the passengers had to board an aircraft through a long plastic tube that snaked through an overhaul facility so that they could see exactly what was involved in making that aircraft clear for take off.

Approach your dealings from this perspective. Nothing you can do will mollify management, you could even work for free and it would make no difference. They want unchallenged power and will stop at nothing to get it. That is why they are destroying you as a profession.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I know I would be hanged for suggesting this, but don't you all in bexley think its time to offer Qantas a new EBA in line with industry standards in pay, super and entitlements?

I would love to be on the higher end of the LAME scale with bolt on payments but we are pricing Qantas LAMEs out of the business. This is my suggestion to improving cost savings for the airline and possibly saving the lives and jobs of hundreds.



Hey your suggestion is absolutely worth making here so I can explain this. I think Sunfish did in a very brief comment but I will talk about history a bit.

Nothing you can do will mollify management, you could even work for free and it would make no difference. They want unchallenged power and will stop at nothing to get it.

For a start the Qantas LAME wage structure does provide higher wages for those at the top end. Down the bottom though and in the middle levels you are behind the other LAME employment rates. Virgin are at about $120k. A Qantas Line LAME would take at least 16 years to earn that amount. Even places like Alliance have comparable wages to Qantas. The Qantas wages are not the problem.

If you thought it was the overall price for HM I say no also. The 744 reconfig went out to tender. Haeko bid $195M, Avalon bid $200M. We were 2.5% dearer but by the time you fly the aircraft up there, guess what. Each year they kept setting Mel HM impossible performance targets so they could tell them they were too expensive. Each year the blokes met the targets. In the end they stopped setting targets because they just wanted to shut the place down for the reasons Sunfish describes.

If you think we as a union should try and work with the company I would suggest we don't. It has all been tried before. We had union leadership who were for many years a little more conservative (some will say a lot). During this period of co-operation Syd HM was closed.

Back to your original "take a hit now to save jobs" concept. Our friends across the big pond at American Airlines did this. They took a 30% wage cut not long ago. the company then deliberately declared chapter 11 (by ensuring they ordered and paid for far more aircraft than they need to make sure they lost money) and want further wage cuts. For management it is never enough.

[engine overspeed]

Quote QF94
Whether you believe Im an old Jack or a current hypocrite is of no relevance
to me whatsoever and has no bearing on what I do or dont do. Just keep on babbling.

QF94 I dont babble, Ive only written 3 lines. Your the one that babbles, Ill leave that up to you, your doing a pretty good job at it. Do you do it on single rates.

It may not have any relevance to you, but it does to a lot of other people, hence the Jack terminology.

Quote... QF94... When the door hits us in the rear end.

Well it may be you first, perhaps the OT will keep you off the dole queue a little longer than most. What is going to happen is going to happen, there is a freight train heading engineerings way, we are stuck in a tunnel there is no escape, the only slim chance is to derail the train, how many more times have you got to be slapped in the face before we ALL say.. enough is enough...

94... Dont make this OT thing a slinging match, as Steve said, we are all in it together. Take a long hard think about 2008, what was the influencing factor regarding the outcome, we should be revisiting the past unofficially of course even FWA agreed. Thats one of the reasons they terminated the PIA this time.

[Bagus]

I totally agree,management sets target to reduced employees not cost,Singapore becoming aviation hub,QF becoming redundancy hub

Upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Where are the sparkies . Dont know it s all a mates deal done on the quite

[soldier of fortune]

Who ever is suggesting all Syd QF LAMES to be pooled
all in one bucket - you can jam that up your ASS
I'LL FIGHT THAT TILL THE END!!!
F..K YOU ALL!!!!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

What I would like to know is when are the long haul pilots to be made redundant?

With jumbos flying domestically with 3 captains, B747's and B767's literally flying out the door, and over 500 engineering staff leaving, are there now too many pilots manning too few aircraft?

I'm not trying to be rude, but with so many long haul aircraft leaving, there must now be a massive oversupply of crew. Or are you all being kept on for the return of the JQ A330's?

As we all know, if these aircraft can fix themselves, surely they can fly themselves as well.

[Tidbinbilla]

I think this thread has run its course :)